I suppose you could say that is true if it consummated the relationship. (as monogamous)
But would you make the same claim for promiscuity? (having multiple partners)
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Did Jesus say that adultery is grounds for divorce? - Nope.
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But would you make the same claim for promiscuity? (having multiple partners)
[
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The History of Marriages in Christianity
Short answer....casual sex is a sin worse than most Christian know. Now for the long answer....get a cup of coffee and get comfortable....
I call my ministry the Johnny Appleseed of Truth….So truth is the focus and exposing false beliefs is my top priority….And this topic involves many false beliefs that are popular….so lets get it straight….
Martin Luther was a Catholic that was out to reform the Catholic Church. And marriage was on that list of items to correct the Catholic Church on. He preached sermons supporting marriage beginning in 1519 and several years later wrote his first formal thesis attacking the value of the vows of celibacy for the clergy and arguing that marriage was the best Christian life. In the process he fell in love with a Nun and he eventually married her…. Katharina von Bora
And then Marten Luther wrote “The Estate of Marriage” 1522….Here is part of what he had to say….
How I dread preaching on the estate of marriage! I am reluctant to do it because I am afraid if I once get really involved in the subject it will make a lot of work for me and for others. The shameful confusion wrought by the accursed papal law has occasioned so much distress, and the lax authority of both the spiritual and the temporal swords has given rise to so many dreadful abuses and false situations, that I would much prefer neither to look into the matter nor to hear of it. But timidity is no help in an emergency; I must proceed. I must try to instruct poor bewildered consciences, and take up the matter boldly.
This is pretty long so here is the link
Luther: The Estate of Marriage.
Now for many this will be a little shocking….for one he does not mention wedding ceremonies put he talks about polygamy saying.. "I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the scripture.”…..This is a fact the scriptures never put a moratorium on polygamy or concubinage. This is another topic but Jews who were converting to Christianity were not told to divorce all but one of their wives and polygamy and concubinage continued on in Christianity for centuries after the biblical period. Of course people have a tendency to whitewash history….believing what they prefer.
The first requirement for Christian wedding ceremonies to be married occurs in the mid 1500’s. Martin's “Estate of Marriage” was written in 1522 so that is why he does not mention weddings. It was actually the Protestants that made church wedding ceremonies a requirement and then shortly after the Catholic Church made wedding ceremonies a requirement, but of course they only recognized weddings conducted by Catholic priests. The funny here is that most Protestants do not know their own history in regard to this and think that wedding ceremonies was a biblical requirement and were happening all along. It is a good example of the power of false beliefs.
The first documentation for the model of Christian weddings and vows was by Thomas Cranmer in his Book of Common Prayer in1549.
So how did Christians get married before this? To start with lets take it back to the Bible.
You can read the Bible from cover to cover and you will not find a requirement for a wedding ceremony in the Bible….Old or New Testament.
The Jews had a process that involved payment for the bride but no ceremony required or described. The bride price or bride dowry was part of the Jewish customs where women were property. Property of father and then that property was sold to the groom. The process started usually between the fathers where they agreed on a bride price….sometimes between the father and husband. Either way the father was expected to deliver a virgin daughter ….if not, according to the Mosaic Law she could be killed and her body left at the father’s doorstep. The significance of the virginity of the bride continued on to modern times.
The father’s control over who and when his daughter married continued on until the Catholic Church forbid it in the 13th century, but this did not stop it entirely and the custom of paying a bride price continued on in Christianity until well into 19th century. Particularly in the upper class, history records such arrangements between Kingdoms particularly when marriages involved the transfer of wealth, land, and power. Of course outside of Christianity the practice continues.
After the bride price was paid the father handed his daughter over to the man…then the marriage was consummated in the bridal chamber…if there was one….and it actually was as the name implies. No vows or wedding ceremonies required. But in some cases there was a marriage contract and some families celebrated the event, clergy not necessary. A lot of times out in the wilderness couples just joined and stayed together….which is the primary characteristic of a marriage.
So why doesn’t the Bible require a wedding ceremony? Probably because wedding ceremonies, one way or another originated from Pagan customs and cultures.
So when Christ was talking about Weddings, Wedding Feast, Wedding garments, wedding guests, the ten virgins with lamps etc….where did this come from?
Note: This can be a difficult topic for “Bible Only” because the scriptures never put an end to polygamy or concubinage or stop father's control of who their daughter married or a requirement for a wedding ceremony to be married and Christianity did not develop a procedures for divorce….that is a “Letter of Divorcement” The word divorce does not occur outside of the Gospels. In other words divorce is a Jewish Mosaic custom. Christian “divorce” is another topic.
As far as the ten virgins with lamps etc, you will not find any of it anywhere else in the scriptures. In between the testaments, when the Jews were under the rule of the Persians they developed their own wedding ceremonies and receptions…feasts. Scholars believe it was because the Jews admired Persian weddings and celebrations. The Jewish weddings had an Old Testament theme and it is pretty well represented by Modern Jewish weddings, except the bridal chamber is replaced by a canopy called the Chuppah.
But after Alexander the Great conquered Persia the Greeks and then the Romans persecuted the Jews, killing and crucifying tens of thousands of them, as well as taking their wives, the Jews felt that all their misfortunes were due to them embracing Pagan customs so they distanced themselves from Pagan customs…that included wedding ceremonies.
During Christ’s time Jewish weddings mostly fell out of favor because of the Pagan connections with Persia. Then during the Middle Ages Jewish weddings became popular again.
Well what about the wedding at Cana? For one, like I said, the words wed or wedding do not appear in the scriptures. The actual scriptures say, the marriage in Cana, but in actually it could have been a wedding, but the scriptures do not detail that part. The scriptures discuss what we would call a reception.
The scriptures do not tell us if it was a Jewish wedding or a Pagan wedding …. The scriptures do not tell us who the bridegroom or bride was. All we know was that Christ and Christ’s mother was there and wine was so important that Christ performed a miracle at his mother’s request to turn water into superb wine. Still it is not too far fetched to believe it was a Jewish celebration or even a wedding.
So how did Christians get married back in the day? They married just like they did in the Old Testament….they took a wife, the union being the consummation of the marriage. The father chose when and who his daughter married and there could still be a bride price and they could have a celebration. Did the fathers always pick their daughter’s husbands and receive a bride price? Probably not.
No weddings! The Jewish-Christians probably did not have many. The Gentile-Christians, when they came on board introduced Christianity to wedding ceremonies that we know today. Which is why I am confident that wedding ceremonies were occurring, but still the first documented Christian wedding does not occur until the 9th century and still not a requirement.
Gentile-Christians were Pagans that had converted to Christianity, they converted their religious beliefs but they did not abandon all their various regional customs and traditions and seasonal holidays. Weddings were popular with Pagan cultures. So it is very likely that wedding ceremonies were conducted by Gentile-Christians.
Like I said in the mid1500’s the Protestants made it a requirement to have a church wedding ceremony. And like I said, soon after that the Catholics followed suite. But just to be clear, again Christians and Catholics had wedding ceremonies all along….just not required or well documented. The funny? The Catholics were not big on romance…ergo the celibate requirement for clergy and up to the 1500’s Catholics did not allow weddings inside church buildings. But then after the 1500’s they required all weddings to be inside a Catholic church and then at the Council of Trent in 1563 the Catholic Church made marriage a sacrament.
Continued.....
Short answer....casual sex is a sin worse than most Christian know. Now for the long answer....get a cup of coffee and get comfortable....
I call my ministry the Johnny Appleseed of Truth….So truth is the focus and exposing false beliefs is my top priority….And this topic involves many false beliefs that are popular….so lets get it straight….
Martin Luther was a Catholic that was out to reform the Catholic Church. And marriage was on that list of items to correct the Catholic Church on. He preached sermons supporting marriage beginning in 1519 and several years later wrote his first formal thesis attacking the value of the vows of celibacy for the clergy and arguing that marriage was the best Christian life. In the process he fell in love with a Nun and he eventually married her…. Katharina von Bora
And then Marten Luther wrote “The Estate of Marriage” 1522….Here is part of what he had to say….
How I dread preaching on the estate of marriage! I am reluctant to do it because I am afraid if I once get really involved in the subject it will make a lot of work for me and for others. The shameful confusion wrought by the accursed papal law has occasioned so much distress, and the lax authority of both the spiritual and the temporal swords has given rise to so many dreadful abuses and false situations, that I would much prefer neither to look into the matter nor to hear of it. But timidity is no help in an emergency; I must proceed. I must try to instruct poor bewildered consciences, and take up the matter boldly.
This is pretty long so here is the link
Luther: The Estate of Marriage.
Now for many this will be a little shocking….for one he does not mention wedding ceremonies put he talks about polygamy saying.. "I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the scripture.”…..This is a fact the scriptures never put a moratorium on polygamy or concubinage. This is another topic but Jews who were converting to Christianity were not told to divorce all but one of their wives and polygamy and concubinage continued on in Christianity for centuries after the biblical period. Of course people have a tendency to whitewash history….believing what they prefer.
The first requirement for Christian wedding ceremonies to be married occurs in the mid 1500’s. Martin's “Estate of Marriage” was written in 1522 so that is why he does not mention weddings. It was actually the Protestants that made church wedding ceremonies a requirement and then shortly after the Catholic Church made wedding ceremonies a requirement, but of course they only recognized weddings conducted by Catholic priests. The funny here is that most Protestants do not know their own history in regard to this and think that wedding ceremonies was a biblical requirement and were happening all along. It is a good example of the power of false beliefs.
The first documentation for the model of Christian weddings and vows was by Thomas Cranmer in his Book of Common Prayer in1549.
So how did Christians get married before this? To start with lets take it back to the Bible.
You can read the Bible from cover to cover and you will not find a requirement for a wedding ceremony in the Bible….Old or New Testament.
The Jews had a process that involved payment for the bride but no ceremony required or described. The bride price or bride dowry was part of the Jewish customs where women were property. Property of father and then that property was sold to the groom. The process started usually between the fathers where they agreed on a bride price….sometimes between the father and husband. Either way the father was expected to deliver a virgin daughter ….if not, according to the Mosaic Law she could be killed and her body left at the father’s doorstep. The significance of the virginity of the bride continued on to modern times.
The father’s control over who and when his daughter married continued on until the Catholic Church forbid it in the 13th century, but this did not stop it entirely and the custom of paying a bride price continued on in Christianity until well into 19th century. Particularly in the upper class, history records such arrangements between Kingdoms particularly when marriages involved the transfer of wealth, land, and power. Of course outside of Christianity the practice continues.
After the bride price was paid the father handed his daughter over to the man…then the marriage was consummated in the bridal chamber…if there was one….and it actually was as the name implies. No vows or wedding ceremonies required. But in some cases there was a marriage contract and some families celebrated the event, clergy not necessary. A lot of times out in the wilderness couples just joined and stayed together….which is the primary characteristic of a marriage.
So why doesn’t the Bible require a wedding ceremony? Probably because wedding ceremonies, one way or another originated from Pagan customs and cultures.
So when Christ was talking about Weddings, Wedding Feast, Wedding garments, wedding guests, the ten virgins with lamps etc….where did this come from?
Note: This can be a difficult topic for “Bible Only” because the scriptures never put an end to polygamy or concubinage or stop father's control of who their daughter married or a requirement for a wedding ceremony to be married and Christianity did not develop a procedures for divorce….that is a “Letter of Divorcement” The word divorce does not occur outside of the Gospels. In other words divorce is a Jewish Mosaic custom. Christian “divorce” is another topic.
As far as the ten virgins with lamps etc, you will not find any of it anywhere else in the scriptures. In between the testaments, when the Jews were under the rule of the Persians they developed their own wedding ceremonies and receptions…feasts. Scholars believe it was because the Jews admired Persian weddings and celebrations. The Jewish weddings had an Old Testament theme and it is pretty well represented by Modern Jewish weddings, except the bridal chamber is replaced by a canopy called the Chuppah.
But after Alexander the Great conquered Persia the Greeks and then the Romans persecuted the Jews, killing and crucifying tens of thousands of them, as well as taking their wives, the Jews felt that all their misfortunes were due to them embracing Pagan customs so they distanced themselves from Pagan customs…that included wedding ceremonies.
During Christ’s time Jewish weddings mostly fell out of favor because of the Pagan connections with Persia. Then during the Middle Ages Jewish weddings became popular again.
Well what about the wedding at Cana? For one, like I said, the words wed or wedding do not appear in the scriptures. The actual scriptures say, the marriage in Cana, but in actually it could have been a wedding, but the scriptures do not detail that part. The scriptures discuss what we would call a reception.
The scriptures do not tell us if it was a Jewish wedding or a Pagan wedding …. The scriptures do not tell us who the bridegroom or bride was. All we know was that Christ and Christ’s mother was there and wine was so important that Christ performed a miracle at his mother’s request to turn water into superb wine. Still it is not too far fetched to believe it was a Jewish celebration or even a wedding.
So how did Christians get married back in the day? They married just like they did in the Old Testament….they took a wife, the union being the consummation of the marriage. The father chose when and who his daughter married and there could still be a bride price and they could have a celebration. Did the fathers always pick their daughter’s husbands and receive a bride price? Probably not.
No weddings! The Jewish-Christians probably did not have many. The Gentile-Christians, when they came on board introduced Christianity to wedding ceremonies that we know today. Which is why I am confident that wedding ceremonies were occurring, but still the first documented Christian wedding does not occur until the 9th century and still not a requirement.
Gentile-Christians were Pagans that had converted to Christianity, they converted their religious beliefs but they did not abandon all their various regional customs and traditions and seasonal holidays. Weddings were popular with Pagan cultures. So it is very likely that wedding ceremonies were conducted by Gentile-Christians.
Like I said in the mid1500’s the Protestants made it a requirement to have a church wedding ceremony. And like I said, soon after that the Catholics followed suite. But just to be clear, again Christians and Catholics had wedding ceremonies all along….just not required or well documented. The funny? The Catholics were not big on romance…ergo the celibate requirement for clergy and up to the 1500’s Catholics did not allow weddings inside church buildings. But then after the 1500’s they required all weddings to be inside a Catholic church and then at the Council of Trent in 1563 the Catholic Church made marriage a sacrament.
Continued.....
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
So what are some of the ramifications of all of this?….It means….That the common belief that two single people having sex is a sin….is false. It is not a sin as long as they remain together.
Which means…men and women should only have sex with one person in their lifetime….and when they do, it formed a marriage.
Which means that….people that have casual sexual relationships are committing adultery, because they were married the first time they had sex.
Which means that….today people do not have to have a wedding ceremony to be married.
Which means that….common terms like shacking up or living in sin are false accusations of sin….Weddings are a Christian custom per say not a biblical requirement.
On the other hand….if you are a Catholic or a Protestant church member, you are required by the church to have a wedding, and if you do not, you are in violation of the church, but not the Bible.
Should unmarried couples be allowed in the church? Yes. The hope being that Christian association will convince them of the benefits of a wedding. But if that church has a requirement for couples to have a wedding ceremony they should not be members of the church until they have a wedding.
Personally I believe in the requirement to have a wedding….the bigger and the fancier the better. Of all the things that Christianity has learned since the biblical era, weddings are a good addition to Christianity.
What about the Pagan connection that wedding ceremonies have? It is a fact that modern Christian weddings and receptions have Pagan customs imbedded in them. The expression “tying the knot” comes from the Pagan tradition of wrapping a cord around the bride and groom’s hands and the Jews still do this today. Things like the bridal wedding veil, the train on the dress, the vows, the tiered cake, the bride and groom cutting the cake together, saving a piece of the cake, throwing rice, bells, cans tied behind the car etc. I think the custom of carrying the bride across the threshold is Jewish. The bedroom representing the bridal chamber.
When Christ chose to offer salvation to the Pagans….He knew that some Pagan customs would come with them. The Bible did not make restrictions on this and this was right and not surprising. But then again as time went on the Pagan customs were Christianized. And by the way….Christian holidays have Pagan aspects and that is just fine.
Why are weddings and receptions a good Christian custom? For one, they bring the families together to celebrate the marriage of the couple. It is a public display of the commitment that the couple has made together. The wedding should occur in a church and be a beautiful celebration for the couple. Eat drink and be merry just as it was done in Cana.
As to be expected the truth changes things….To some degree Christianity has demonized sex….dirty, nasty, sinful! When the truth is just the opposite....sex is sacred….Yahweh defined it as part of marital relationship. Hold marriage in high esteem, all of you, and keep the marriage bed pure because God will judge those who commit sexual sins. Hebrews 13:4 We should only have sex when it is right....But still to be honest very few couples wait to have sex until after they have a wedding. And that is fine because you should only have sex with someone you love....and the marriage is consummated. Then plan for a wonderful church wedding.
So many see casual sex as a minor sin, but in fact it is one of the worst sexual sins. When you have sex you are married. The next person you have sex with is adultery unless you are practicing polygamy which Christianity does not condone anymore. This may sound strange but even Martin Luther said that polygamy was not a sin. Still I believe it is wrong….
But to be honest I did know a couple where the wife was disabled and she allowed her husband to take her friend as a wife. It worked for them.
Still casual sex is a sin and has ramifications that mount up….There is no love or respect for the other person or yourself. It degrades society and what if the woman gets pregnant in a casual sexual encounter? How does this affect the children? The term “my baby daddy” is a common term now a days.
Bottom line regardless of the history of it all….Christian weddings conducted in a church are the best way to go for all concerned and I have never passed up an invitation to a wedding.
God Bless. Be good and do good.
Which means…men and women should only have sex with one person in their lifetime….and when they do, it formed a marriage.
Which means that….people that have casual sexual relationships are committing adultery, because they were married the first time they had sex.
Which means that….today people do not have to have a wedding ceremony to be married.
Which means that….common terms like shacking up or living in sin are false accusations of sin….Weddings are a Christian custom per say not a biblical requirement.
On the other hand….if you are a Catholic or a Protestant church member, you are required by the church to have a wedding, and if you do not, you are in violation of the church, but not the Bible.
Should unmarried couples be allowed in the church? Yes. The hope being that Christian association will convince them of the benefits of a wedding. But if that church has a requirement for couples to have a wedding ceremony they should not be members of the church until they have a wedding.
Personally I believe in the requirement to have a wedding….the bigger and the fancier the better. Of all the things that Christianity has learned since the biblical era, weddings are a good addition to Christianity.
What about the Pagan connection that wedding ceremonies have? It is a fact that modern Christian weddings and receptions have Pagan customs imbedded in them. The expression “tying the knot” comes from the Pagan tradition of wrapping a cord around the bride and groom’s hands and the Jews still do this today. Things like the bridal wedding veil, the train on the dress, the vows, the tiered cake, the bride and groom cutting the cake together, saving a piece of the cake, throwing rice, bells, cans tied behind the car etc. I think the custom of carrying the bride across the threshold is Jewish. The bedroom representing the bridal chamber.
When Christ chose to offer salvation to the Pagans….He knew that some Pagan customs would come with them. The Bible did not make restrictions on this and this was right and not surprising. But then again as time went on the Pagan customs were Christianized. And by the way….Christian holidays have Pagan aspects and that is just fine.
Why are weddings and receptions a good Christian custom? For one, they bring the families together to celebrate the marriage of the couple. It is a public display of the commitment that the couple has made together. The wedding should occur in a church and be a beautiful celebration for the couple. Eat drink and be merry just as it was done in Cana.
As to be expected the truth changes things….To some degree Christianity has demonized sex….dirty, nasty, sinful! When the truth is just the opposite....sex is sacred….Yahweh defined it as part of marital relationship. Hold marriage in high esteem, all of you, and keep the marriage bed pure because God will judge those who commit sexual sins. Hebrews 13:4 We should only have sex when it is right....But still to be honest very few couples wait to have sex until after they have a wedding. And that is fine because you should only have sex with someone you love....and the marriage is consummated. Then plan for a wonderful church wedding.
So many see casual sex as a minor sin, but in fact it is one of the worst sexual sins. When you have sex you are married. The next person you have sex with is adultery unless you are practicing polygamy which Christianity does not condone anymore. This may sound strange but even Martin Luther said that polygamy was not a sin. Still I believe it is wrong….
But to be honest I did know a couple where the wife was disabled and she allowed her husband to take her friend as a wife. It worked for them.
Still casual sex is a sin and has ramifications that mount up….There is no love or respect for the other person or yourself. It degrades society and what if the woman gets pregnant in a casual sexual encounter? How does this affect the children? The term “my baby daddy” is a common term now a days.
Bottom line regardless of the history of it all….Christian weddings conducted in a church are the best way to go for all concerned and I have never passed up an invitation to a wedding.
God Bless. Be good and do good.
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Yes.
And at this point, even unbelievers in the west are required to have state recognized marriages. (or common law relationships)
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed posts.
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Sorry but fornication in Matt. 19 is "PORNEIA"
which as defined is:
- illicit sexual intercourse
- adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
- sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
- sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11-12
- metaph. the worship of idols
- of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
πορνεία porneía, por-ni'-ah; from G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry:—fornication.
That term includes all illicit sexual activity including adultery. It is the generic greek term for all illicit sex.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Fornication should not be part of the discussion....
It is not a biblical word.....not in the scriptures.
It is a 4th century Latin word associated with the Greek word porniea which is associated with prostitutes. But fornication has definitions that do not relate to the scriptures or reality.
Better to use the words that are in the scriptures.
No reason to use a "generic word" or a word that lumps all sexual activates into one.
I think fornication should be part of the discussion regardless of whether it is a "biblical word".
Jesus differentiates between adultery (immorality after marriage) and fornication (immorality BEFORE marriage).
The only allowance for divorce was written in the law. Parents that provided a non-virgin bride broke the law.
See Deuteronomy 22:16-18
Matthew 19:8-10 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I do not know how many times I have explained this.
Yeshua could not have differentiate between adultery and fornification because nothing like fornication is in the scriptures....why do you think I said that fornication is not a biblical word?
The scriptures! Look at the actual scriptures and you find out that every specific sexual act appears in the Greek. The phrase "sexual immorality" is the phrase that lumps them together.
Why not prefer accuracy?
Just for the fun of it.....Fornication is a 4th century word....what do you think Christians called sexual immorality before that?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Deuteronomy 22:16-18
16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him.
??????????????????
The cloth is presented to prove her virginity. That there was no fornication prior to marriage.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The bed sheet from the bridal chamber.....but the rest of it.....talk about reading something into a scripture. Fornication is not a biblical word. The road to Damascus is Interstate I-44
God Bless. Be good and do good.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
It's about peddling used merchandise as new. Sons can work the family business and inherit everything after the old man croaks. Daughters were just assets to be sold off for the dowry.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
There is some truth to that. Here's an article on Porneia from a non-Christian source:
Porneia
Porneia thus had a decidedly negative connotation, and expressions such as pornes huios ("son of a whore") were used as pointed slurs. In the moralizing literature of the first and second centuries ce, men were warned not to squander their inheritance on pornai and were condemned as licentious (akolasia) if they overindulged in trips to the brothel. Tax receipts, legal documents, and historical writings from the Roman period show that prostitution continued to be regulated and taxed despite the fact that porneia—with an expanded sense indicating any illicit sex—was condemned by Greco-Roman moralists.
Note that by the Christian era, porneia had taken on within the Greco-Roman world an expanded meaning of any illicit sex. So, we invented a Latin word to encompass the expanded meaning.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
I got to see this ritual firsthand. A couple of friends of mine from college got married after living with each other for about a decade. He was Jewish; she was a convert to Judaism. After the wedding, we all went out to celebrate at a local hotel restaurant. The bride and groom disappeared during the party. The groom's father took a bottle of red wine from the table and went with them. He came back a short time later with one of the hotel towels with a big red blotch on it that was suspiciously the color of Cabernet Sauvignon. He presented the towel to the bride's father and explained the application of Deuteronomy 22:15-18 to the non-Jewish contingent at the table. Look, they'd been living together since we were in college; nobody had any illusions that the bride was still a virgin. But the mizvot was followed, 3000 years later. Using red wine to conceal the fact that the bride was not a virgin is apparently also a tradition. Is it a deception? I see it as grace. Besides, if it had been the real thing ... ick.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
OK let us keep things in perspective.....More or less porneia relates to prostituites....one way or another. The Romans considered this a good thing....both socially and religiously. Now our definition of it....our definition not the koine Greek definition is that porneia mean illicit sex....sexual immorality ..... whore ....prostitution ... sinful .... pornography more or less comes from an ancient Greek word that means writings or murals of prostitutes.
The problem with a word like fornification and other words that are not in the scriptures, is that they have a tendency to drag in definitions....beliefs....and understandings that are not in the scriptures and in doing so cause false beliefs. Fornification lumps into it a lot of different illegit sexual activities, in affect renaming them. Also one of the definitions of fornification is that two single people have sex is a sin or two people living together having sex is a sin. This is not true and because of this the truth is shocking to most people and this belief causes sin and some of it is serious.
For most of history....two single people having sex was how marriages were formed. This is what the bridle chamber was about. Nowhere in the scriptures is a wedding ceremony required. Wedding ceremonies were a Pagan custom, when Paul converted the Pagans into Christianity this was one of the customs that Pagans brought into Christianity. In the 16th century the Protestants made a church wedding ceremony a requirement to be married. Up to that point not even the Catholic Church required a wedding ceremony to be married.
So now people consider two monogamous people living together is a sin. It is not. So some people will condemn them and may turn them away from Christianity.....that is a bad sin.
Now for sure wedding ceremonies are the best way to go but unmarried people should be welcomed in the church with the hopes that association with Christians will persuade them to have wedding ceremony.
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VictoryinJesus
Well-Known Member
- Jan 26, 2017
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To me the focus of the church on adultery between a man and woman and the right to divorce …is missing the point of who was committing adultery. They were concerned with the flesh of how to charge a woman guilty of adultery towards them, yet missed the point of their adultery against God.
Numbers 5 begins with go tell Israel what to do when a woman is suspected of Adultery, go instruct Israel on the woman having gone aside after another (having gone aside after the flesh and lust thereof, where “ALL” have gone aside, All have gone out of way: after their own things and not the things of God.
^we all need Grace.
numbers 5 tells of the law of jealousies where if under the law of jealousies, the woman drinks of the bitter water containing the curse and it goes in, where if guilty her belly swells and her thigh rots. Paul speaks to them, asking them who wants to be under the law Galatians 4:21-23 Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? [22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. [23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. (both in Numbers 5 ->Numbers 5:28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
It’s their hearts that are(were hardened) because of your hard hearts …it was written in for them? God said he will remove the hard heart of stone. And cast it away. Is this for their good to remove or speedster the hard heart from them? They miss the point that they are in agreement with what the law of jealousies says to do with the adulterous woman, while debating the woman caught in adultery under the law, …they ask what should happen to this adulterous woman? Missing, It’s them. Is adultery between a man and woman devastating and causes damage? Yes. Any harm against one another causes damage..
is adultery against God serious? Going after our own things and not the things of God? Yes. but (Imo) those concerned with what happens in adultery forget what happens so no flesh will boast in His sight.
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So then, a man who deals treacherously with his wife may be divorced (by her).
VictoryinJesus
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- Jan 26, 2017
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Galatians 6:11-18 See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. [12] It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. [13] For even those who are circumcised do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. [14] But far be it (removed)from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. [15] For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. [16] And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. [17] From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus. [18] The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.
Grailhunter
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