When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[grafted branch]

Except that ignores some things that Jesus said that couldn't possibly fit the first century. Such as.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Then compare that with this...

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

And then with this...

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1 Corinthians 9:17For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. 18What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

You can see what reward Paul had. The unbelievers will receive wrath for their works and in Revelation 6:16-17 that is what is happening.

 

[grafted branch]

I'm pretty sure John saw it before he died.
He wrote what all he saw in revelation .But I don't believe John saw it in 70 AD.I think he saw in in 95 AD during the reign of Domitian.

Even if 95AD was the correct date, that would put the revealing of the Son of man in Luke 17:30 in 95AD but then you would have to explain who was fleeing at that time. Do you have proof of people fleeing in 95AD? If not then we’ll stick to the fleeing in 70AD which actually did happen.

 

[Wick Stick]

I’m wondering if you see all prophecy already being fulfilled in a type or figurative way?

I think most prophecy has been fulfilled in a literal sense. In some cases, we don't have the historical records so it's hard to see it.

To put it another way, if a prophecy doesn't come true shortly after given, the prophet is a false prophet (per Deuteronomy).

I think we all agree there is still a future coming of Christ but 70AD could be a type of a future coming.

Yes, I believe in a future coming of Christ. That doesn't prevent me from seeing that there are things in the gospels and Revelation that were fulfilled in 70AD. And 135AD. The Jewish rebellion in the 2nd century was basically a repeat of the one 65 years earlier.

Do you see any prophecy that hasn’t already been fulfilled in some kind of way?

Not really. There's two bits of prophecy in Daniel and Revelation that were sealed up for the end, but we literally don't know what they are.

 

[CTK]

I think most prophecy has been fulfilled in a literal sense. In some cases, we don't have the historical records so it's hard to see it.

To put it another way, if a prophecy doesn't come true shortly after given, the prophet is a false prophet (per Deuteronomy).

Yes, I believe in a future coming of Christ. That doesn't prevent me from seeing that there are things in the gospels and Revelation that were fulfilled in 70AD. And 135AD. The Jewish rebellion in the 2nd century was basically a repeat of the one 65 years earlier.

Not really. There's two bits of prophecy in Daniel and Revelation that were sealed up for the end, but we literally don't know what they are.

If you do not mind, and although I have not read the latest pages within this topic, I would like to suggest or offer one prophecy that I believe must take place .... soon!

It relates to the 70 weeks of years prophecy in Daniel 9. The total prophecy is for 490 literal years and it began in 457 BC. Also, the 4th and final Great Jubilee cycle began at the same time. Regarding the messianic prophecy of the 70 weeks of years, Jesus fulfilled all of His God given requirements outlined in 9:24 despite being "cut off" in the midst of the last week of the prophecy. However, this did have a very important consequence regarding the 4th Great Jubilee cycle. Since the Jews rejected their Messiah this would stop the counting of the clock for this "Jubilee" cylce. Essentially, the cross occurred exactly on the 486.5 year of the prophecy (which has the same time line as the Jubilee cycle). Thus, the cycle still has 3.5 years that MUST be completed. When it is completed, then the Messiah!

As a result of their rejection and crucifixion of Jesus they must return to be in "good standing" with their God to begin the counting of the last 3.5 years. The Messiah cannot come until this is completed. Consequently, at the end of the time of the Gentiles (soon, I believe), God will perform a "Damascus" type event where the blindness of their eyes of His people will be removed. Then, they will recognize the One they have pierced. They will then go out into the world, just as Paul did, and preach the Word of God AND the Testimony of Jesus. The world will not know what to do with this.... the Jews now preaching Jesus! This will cause world wide fighting, anger and distruction --- because everyone will see just how much the RCC and the Christian community has veered away from the true Word of God.

If you were to take His Word, His 10 commandments and His Testimony and compare it to today's preachings and practices - idols, infallibility of pope, his claim of divinity, forgiveness of sins, change of the Sabbath and a hundred other departures from the true Word of God, it will be easy to see the differences. This will cause the RCC to fight against their teachings since it will affect their power and control and standing in the world.... They will preach for 3.5 years and then the Messiah. These 3.5 years will be anything but calm and peaceful.

 

[ewq1938]

If both Matthew 24:19 and 20 only applies to pregnant women then why not argue that greatest tribulation ever in verse 21 also only applies to pregnant women? I mean if only pregnant women are to pray about the AOD fleeing because it would be particularly difficult for them, then it would make sense that the greatest tribulation only applies to them also.

It is harder to flee when a woman is pregnant. Fleeing in winter when not pregnant is easier. That's why it says WOE to those who are pregnant or have young babies. Verse 19 and 20 are directly related.

So what about verse 21? How can a man ever experience “great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be” when the tribulation for pregnant women is worse than any tribulation a man can experience?

It does not say the trib is worse for women lol...it says the fleeing is harder and if it is in winter or on the Sabbath for women with their young. This isn't a surprise. or anything new.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What some are ignoring, before Christ can even return, there are two totally different events involving a temple that have to be fulfilled first. One of those events has already been fulfilled, meaning in the first century and the 2nd temple being destroyed. Except that has zero to do with the temple involving 2 Thessalonians 2:4. The issue is not that anyone is denying that what 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is involving has to be fulfilled before Christ returns, the issue is that their interpretation of the Discourse gives the impression that Jesus never saw this as anything significant, that He saw the destroying of the 2nd temple more significant since that is the only one He focused on in the Discourse. Not according to me but according to these other interpretations.

Let us reason together here. I know that one of the people you have in mind here that supposedly thinks that Jesus did not think what Paul described in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is significant is me, but I believe Jesus did refer to what 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is about, but not in the same verses that you think He did. I'll try to explain what I mean.

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Compare that passage to 2 Thessalonians 2 where Paul also refers to many turning (falling) away from the faith and to a high level of deception and unrestrained wickedness taking place.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

While Jesus may not specifically mention the temple of God in Matthew 24:9-14, He does refer to many falling away from the faith just before He comes just like Paul did and that relates to what 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is about. Don't you agree that there is a connection between the falling away and the man of sin (sinful mankind) sitting in the temple of God (the church) as God while no longer acknowledging the one true God? If so, can you see how Jesus talked in Matthew 24:9-14 about things related to that? And He referred to those things in relation to "the end" which should be understood as referring to the end of the age which will come when Jesus returns.

The other thing that needs to be taken into account here is that Jesus was asked two questions with one relating to the destruction of the temple buildings standing at that time and the other relating to His coming and the end of the age. You somehow think that Matthew and Mark didn't record His answers to both questions. I believe that there is no reason to think that both Matthew and Mark didn't record Jesus's answers to both questions that He was asked in the Olivet Discourse. Please give me one good reason why that would be the case. For some reason, you think Luke is the only one who decided to record His answers to both questions. Why would only Luke have done that and not Matthew and Mark?

Since I see no reason whatsoever that Matthew and Mark would not have recorded Jesus's answers to both questions, I can't see anywhere in Matthew 24-25 and Mark 13 where Jesus could have answered the question about the destruction of the temple buildings in Jerusalem being destroyed except in Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No matter how we interpret those verses, Matthew 16:28 says There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I would say that qualifies as a revealing of the Son of man and puts that revealing (Luke 17:30) in the first century.

Does context matter to you? Matthew 16:28 refers to Peter, James and John getting a foretaste of the second coming of Christ by seeing Jesus in His glory at His transfiguration, which is described immediately after that verse. Clearly, Luke 17:30 has nothing to do with His transfiguration.

 

[ewq1938]

No matter how we interpret those verses, Matthew 16:28 says There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I would say that qualifies as a revealing of the Son of man and puts that revealing (Luke 17:30) in the first century.

Which is full preterism. I thought you believed in a future second coming?


Mat_16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


"cometh" is erchomai and it can mean come or go.


G2064
e?´???µa?
erchomai
er'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, e??e?´??µa? eleuthomai or e?´??? eltho¯; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.



I think Jesus was saying this: "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man going into his kingdom."

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Looks like it was fulfilled at the Ascension.

 

[ewq1938]

70AD was future to entire cannon. Now let’s go back to Luke 23.

In Luke 23:28-30 Jesus told those people in front of Him to weep for themselves and their children because they will say to the mountains fall on us.

Do you believe that actually happened? What more proof do you need than the Bible itself?

If you do believe those people cried to the mountains to fall on them then why wouldn’t you believe it fulfilled Revelation 6:16?

Because the women he spoke to were crying because of what was going to happen to Jesus ie: the cross. That's not who is in Rev 6, whoa re teh unsaved enemies of Jesus who want to be killed rather than face his wrath.

Obviously not the same situations and not Rev 6 happening when Jesus is alive etc.

 

[Davidpt]

LOL. Yet, somehow, when you don't relate Matthew 24:15-16 to Luke 21:20-21 and don't relate Matthew 24:19 to Luke 21:23, you don't think that is doctrinal bias, despite how hypocritical that is.

In my case what would the doctrinal bias be pertaining to in particular? IOW, what doctrinal reason would I need it to be what I take it to mean? It doesn't help support Premil one way or the other, so that can't be why I need it to mean what I take it to mean. And since I'm Post trib, I don't need to take it to mean what I take it to mean in order to support something such as Pretrib. And I obviously don't believe in any rebuilt temple explaining these things.

In your case you need it to mean involving 70 AD since that is what Luke 21:20-23 is involving. Except this ignores that Luke 17:31 records what Matthew 24:17-18 records, and that Luke 17:31-33 proves that Matthew 24:17-18 can't fit 70 AD.

 

[tailgator]

Even if 95AD was the correct date, that would put the revealing of the Son of man in Luke 17:30 in 95AD but then you would have to explain who was fleeing at that time. Do you have proof of people fleeing in 95AD? If not then we’ll stick to the fleeing in 70AD which actually did happen.

So your saying John wrote revelation on the island of Patmos in 70 AD when he wasn't even there in 70 AD.
That makes no sense.

 

[grafted branch]

It does not say the trib is worse for women lol...it says the fleeing is harder and if it is in winter or on the Sabbath for women with their young. This isn't a surprise. or anything new.

Right, but what is new, at least to me, is that you have command to pray about the AOD fleeing only pertaining to the women. I think that’s a flawed idea, just because it’s easier for me to fix the car than it is for my wife to fix the car doesn’t mean that only my wife should pray about the reliability of our car on a long trip.

I would say the woe in Matthew 24:19 should point us to the Revelation 12:12 woe, but I don’t want to make a long post about how they are linked when I don’t think you are interested in this type of interpretation.

 

[grafted branch]

Mat_16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


"cometh" is erchomai and it can mean come or go.


G2064
e?´???µa?
erchomai
er'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, e??e?´??µa? eleuthomai or e?´??? eltho¯; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.



I think Jesus was saying this: "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man going into his kingdom."

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Looks like it was fulfilled at the Ascension.

Let’s take a closer look at your view on this.

In Matthew 16:24 Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples, then in vs 28 He say some shall not taste death. That implies some will die and some won’t die. Non of the disciples died before the Acts 1:9 ascension.

Looks like it had to be fulfilled after the ascension.

 

[grafted branch]

Because the women he spoke to were crying because of what was going to happen to Jesus ie: the cross. That's not who is in Rev 6, whoa re teh unsaved enemies of Jesus who want to be killed rather than face his wrath.

Obviously not the same situations and not Rev 6 happening when Jesus is alive etc.

Luke 23:29For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 30Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

So when was Luke 23:29-30 fulfilled? I would say it was fulfilled in 70AD but I know many of you vehemently disagree with anything related to that date, so help me out and give a reasonable explanation for when they said women who have no children are blessed, for the mountains to fall on us, and the hills to cover us. When did that get fulfilled?

 

[tailgator]

Isaiah 13

Luke 23:29For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 30Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

So when was Luke 23:29-30 fulfilled? I would say it was fulfilled in 70AD but I know many of you vehemently disagree with anything related to that date, so help me out and give a reasonable explanation for when they said women who have no children are blessed, for the mountains to fall on us, and the hills to cover us. When did that get fulfilled?

It would have been better for a woman to not had children than to watch them dashed to pieces at the hands of Iranians who invade Israel ransacking the houses and raping the women on the day of the Lord.

But you believe the day of the Lord was in 70 AD so I'd say you will be surprised in about 4 years when Iranians are celebrating in the city of Jerusalem.
On that day,all sinners will be removed from the promised land as Isaiah says.


Isaiah 13

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

 

[Davy]

Majority of posts on this Thread just go around in circles, never coming to the Truth in God's Word.

When Jesus died on the cross, the veil inside the Holy of Holies in the 2nd temple was torn in two. The Levitical priesthood ended. Christ became our Priest and Advocate to The Father for us. And He became the one Perfect Sacrifice for sin for one and all time.

So does the IDEA of the 'holy place' inside the temple still have importance, even for the end of this world? Yes!

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

That is still a FUTURE SIGN which Lord Jesus Christ gave that will kick off the coming time of "great tribulation" at the end of this world.

Who cannot... read that "holy place" in that Matthew 24:15 verse??

 

[Scott Downey]

Luke 23:29For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 30Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

So when was Luke 23:29-30 fulfilled? I would say it was fulfilled in 70AD but I know many of you vehemently disagree with anything related to that date, so help me out and give a reasonable explanation for when they said women who have no children are blessed, for the mountains to fall on us, and the hills to cover us. When did that get fulfilled?

Most likely 70AD destruction. Jesus speaks to the daughters of Jerusalem.

 

[grafted branch]

But you believe the day of the Lord was in 70 AD so I'd say you will be surprised in about 4 years when Iranians are celebrating in the city of Jerusalem.
On that day,all sinners will be removed from the promised land as Isaiah says.

Who knows if you’ll still be on this forum in four years but would you mind if I remind you of this post in four years?

You have been on this forum since June 2024, and made several predictions. If I were to search your previous posts I think I would find that you have made some predictions that haven’t come true. Why should I believe you this time?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my case what would the doctrinal bias be pertaining to in particular? IOW, what doctrinal reason would I need it to be what I take it to mean? It doesn't help support Premil one way or the other, so that can't be why I need it to mean what I take it to mean.

Maybe "doctrinal bias" wasn't the right term, bu it's not the right term to describe my view of these things, either.

And since I'm Post trib, I don't need to take it to mean what I take it to mean in order to support something such as Pretrib. And I obviously don't believe in any rebuilt temple explaining these things.

In your case you need it to mean involving 70 AD since that is what Luke 21:20-23 is involving. Except this ignores that Luke 17:31 records what Matthew 24:17-18 records, and that Luke 17:31-33 proves that Matthew 24:17-18 can't fit 70 AD.

I don't need Matthew 24:15-21 to be literal in order to support my beliefs in Amil and post-trib and that Jesus prophesied about what would happen in 70 AD in the Olivet Discourse. So, my view is not based on doctrinal bias, either. So, maybe we should stop accusing each other of doctrinal bias as it relates to this particular topic, eh?

What I believe you need to do is give a convincing reason why only Luke would have recorded Jesus's answers to both questions the disciples asked and not Matthew or Mark. Do you have any explanation for that?

 

[Davy]

Most likely 70AD destruction. Jesus speaks to the daughters of Jerusalem.

Luke 23:29-30 has not been fulfilled yet.

Luke 23:29-30
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
KJV

When those Jews say that above "Fall on us", and "Cover us", that will be because of their shame in doing false worship in the future when Christ appears to them. Those represent false idol worshippers at the end of this world.

Hos 10:8
8 The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, "Cover us"; and to the hills, "Fall on us."
KJV

SIXTH SEAL TIMING:
Rev 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV


God's Word WARNS those in Christ Jesus about the time of "great tribulation" for the END of this world just PRIOR to Christ's future coming to gather His 'faithful' Church. HIS Word reveals that FALSE IDOL WORSHIP will be setup at JERUSALEM for that future time.

And the "man of sin" Apostle Paul warned about that must come first, will sit in a new Jewish temple there in JERUSALEM and play GOD, and he will setup the "image of the beast" of Rev.13 like Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon did with the golden idol he setup back in Old Testament history, and demand... that all bow in worship to it, or be killed.

So Judaism's plans for Jerusalem in our near future will lead to SPIRITUAL DEATH, not GOD'S SALVATION. Lord Jesus even said for those of His servants in the countries to NOT enter into Jerusalem when armies are seen surrounding it, because God's day of vengeance for the very 'end' of this world will then be coming there at Jerusalem destroying those armies (Luke 21).

Thus the wise Christian here should soon recognize Jews here that keep trying to twist Bible Scripture about these coming events that are still future to us, and instead want us to believe that TODAY already, there is SALVATION IN THE NATION OF ISRAEL for all! Not true, not yet! The final Antichrist, a false-Messiah, is to appear there in Jerusalem in our near future, and he will have supernatural powers of great signs and wonders, raining fire down from heaven upon the earth, and will claim to be CHRIST. And the whole world... except Christ's elect, will believe that coming false one will be GOD on earth.