Hal Lindsay And Time LaHaye Were Deceived

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The Light

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Not a valid response, since you made a personal attack, and did not provide any Bible evidence against my statement, which my statement is based on 2 Timothy 2:15 on rightly dividing The Word of God. Apparently, you are not familiar with how to do that in Bible Scripture.
Here is your post............deceived........adding to God's Word........while you claim to be rightly dividing. And you think because you posted the words rightly dividing that it's not a personal attack. Seems like more blindness.

"The post above is an example of how the deceived allow men's doctrines to get interjected (added) into God's Word, which causes their deceptions. The Revelation 15 Chapter events must... be rightly divided according to its moving timeline."

I well understand the 6th Seal of Rev.6 has TWO parts, the first part about the future war in heaven per Rev.12:7 forward when Satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven, down to our earth (as "untimely figs" per Rev.6:13). And then the latter part is about the "day of the Lord" with Jesus' future coming, which is also showing that is the time of the final 7th Vial of God's cup of Wrath poured upon the wicked on the last day. That just so happens to also be the 'day' that Jesus gathers His Church, because that is the day in which the 'asleep' saints are resurrected, and then gathered by Jesus which He brings with Him, just as Paul said in 1 Thess.4:13-16. And this is what the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture is showing.
And yet, how is it that you do not understand that Jesus RETURNS at the 6th seal BEFORE the day of the Lord?

So what that Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture is about (which you LEFT OUT THE 30-31 VERSES that go with it), is that is Christ's coming AFTER the "great tribulation" to gather His saints.

So let's not HIDE those other Matt.24 verses you FAILED to include in your quote:

Matt 24:29-31
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
The truth is..........if you look in my past posts, you will see that I include those verses that you claim I am hiding. The reason that I did not include they is that I was trying to make it as simple as possible so that you might have a better change to see. I wanted as little information as possible so that you would not be confused.

Problem is, you are still confused.

You reveal that you... are the one who is clueless, because you apparently fail to recognize that the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture happens ONLY AFTER the "great tribulation", which points to Jesus' coming to end it on the last day of this world, which is the SAME day of the Revelation 6:14-17 Scripture about the 6th Seal.

I can actually follow the Rev.6 SEALS with the SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
So far this sounds great, but I know when I read further that the train will come off the track. Let's just see where.

You apparently cannot read, because I've already shown that I well understand the 6th SEAL (latter part of verses 14-17) is about the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church and the 7th Vial of God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked. That is also the day of God's "consuming fire" that Peter showed will burn man's works off this earth per 2 Peter 3:10, which Peter showed is the "day of the Lord". That is also the same day as the future resurrection of the 'asleep' saints that Jesus brings with Him when He comes.
I knew the train would come off the tracks. What you don't see........and you posted the verses yourself is that Jesus returns at the 6th seal........immediately after the tribulation of those days. And you want to claim that coming is when Jesus comes at the 7th via?

Do you not understand that the 7th seal comes after the 6th seal. Why do you jump from the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, which happens after the tribulation and jump to the end of the 7th seal..............before the 7th seal is even opened? Do you not understand that there are 6 trumpets and 6 vials that occur BEFORE that 7th vial. Do you pretend those aren't there?

As I said, you think that great tribulation and the wrath of God are the same thing. They are not. The great tribulation is when believers are killed for not taking the mark. The wrath of God is when God brings vengeance on an unbelieving world.

Tribulation is not wrath, and tribulation is over at the 6th seal BEFORE the seventh seal containing the wrath of God is opened.

The Rev.15:2-4 Scripture is a forward looking view in time for AFTER Christ having returned and the saints have already been gathered to Him, and with Him at God's Throne at the future new Jerusalem. The sea of glass symbol is a symbol involving the new Jerusalem of Rev.21.
No. Revelation 15:2-4 is about those that come of great tribulation. And those that come out of great tribulation are singing the song of Moses. They are Jews, as there is a harvest of the 12 tribes across at the 6th seal................BEFORE THE SEVENTH SEAL IS OPENED. So don't jump over to the 7th vial. There are still 6 trumpets and 6 vials that happen before the 7 vial.

Your logic is in error.

Oh... NO! You just inserted RACISM within that Rev.7 Scripture! Who did you learn that from, or is that your own silly idea? You don't even know who the JEWS are, because you don't know your Old Testament history.
Oh....NO! You just inserted Replacement Theology. I know where you learned that from. It came from unbelieving men that did not believe that God would keep His Word to His Chosen. God always keeps His word. You'll find that throughout the Word of God.

 

The Light

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Of the 144,000 of Rev.7 that are of the children of Israel that are 'sealed' with God's seal, ONLY the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent the JEWS. All... the rest of that 144,000, which means the majority there, are represented by the ten lost tribes of Israel.
Great.

(The ten northern tribes of Israel were never known as JEWS, and that is per the Jewish historian Josephus who lived circa 100 A.D. Josephus said the title of 'Jew' is what those of the "house of Judah" that returned from their Babylon captivity called themselves, and the strangers returning with them did also (see Ezra 1 & 2). He said it is derived from the name of the tribe of Judah. The ten northern tribes had been long gone when the "house of Judah" southern kingdom only was left in the land, and then taken captive by king Nebuchadnezzar to Babylon. And then after their captivity, only a small remnant of Jews returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the city, walls and the 2nd temple. READ YOUR BIBLE HISTORY.)
Yeah, you're right. Most people know that. I usually say the twelve tribes across the earth, to keep some from being confused and thinking they have gained some type of leverage. If I need to say, the twelve tribes across the earth for you so you understand I will try to keep that in mind.

When Hitler went after the Jews, was he only looking for those from the tribes of Juda, Benjamin and Levi which are of the House of Judah. Or was he also looking for the House of Israel?

When someone says that they are Jewish, does that only mean that they come for the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi?

I was just trying to keep things real, but I will attempt to only say the twelve tribes across the earth so you will not be confused. Don't know if I can remember, but I will try.

Now starting at the Rev.7:9 verse, that "great multitude" "of all nations",are those 'sealed' with God's Seal of the believing Gentiles.
The great multitude includes all nation, tongues, tribes etc. However, those 144,000 that are sealed are of the 12 tribes that are listed in the Word of God. Those aren't Gentiles in the 144,000 first fruits.

And the VIEW John is shown there is FUTURE in the world to come, for AFTER Christ had gathered His saints, and they are at the new Jerusalem with Him before God's Throne.
Come on. The view shown in Rev 7 of the great multitude in heaven is those that are in heaven for the marriage supper. They arrived in heaven with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days. The 7th seal has not even been opened, so don't jump to the 7th vial..............as there are 6 trumpets and 6 vials that occur before the 7th vial.

Your belief does not follow the Word of God.

These events are for the world to come with the new Jerusalem, NOT some false Pre-trib Rapture!
The rapture of the Church will occur before the seals are opened. The second harvest for the seed of the woman which are the 12 tribes across the earth will occur at the 6th seal. There is a great multitude in heaven that will be at the marriage supper during the 7th seal, one year wrath of God.

Rev 7:15-17
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV


Those "living waters" ONLY manifest AFTER Christ's return to this earth for His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. They are shown in Ezekiel 47 with the future millennium "sanctuary" that Jesus will build when He returns to reign over all nations. That is the timeline view of the above views John was shown about the "great multitude" of saved Gentiles.
Those in Revelation 7 are in heaven for the marriage supper.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

After the marriage supper, we are part of the armies of heaven that follow Jesus to Armageddon. Then the seventh vial occurs.

That great multitude in heaven during the 7th seal wrath of God proves that what you say does not agree with scripture.

At least you didn't run Davy. Good for you.
 

Davy

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Here is your post............deceived........adding to God's Word........while you claim to be rightly dividing. And you think because you posted the words rightly dividing that it's not a personal attack. Seems like more blindness.

I was very clear on my reference to Paul's 2 Timothy 2:15 reference to 'rightly divide', which you do not understand what that means. You still don't know. But I'll tell you. It means to pay attention line upon line in study of God's Word because of 'how'... it is written, because the TIME of written events can change very quickly between past, present, and future.

The Rev.15:1 verse is a timeline for prior... to Christ's future coming. But the Rev.15:2-4 verses is a timeline jump to the future world to come...

Rev 15:2-4
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.


The above is for after... Christ's return,, and after He has gathered His elect, and they are at the new Jerusalem. That is NOT about a pre-trib rapture. The below verse is for the same... time:

4 Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? for Thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest.
KJV


That idea of "all nations shall come and worship before Thee" is originally from the Old Testament prophets about the world to come (Psalms 86:9; Isaiah 66; Zechariah 2:11; Zechariah 14:16). Revelation 11:15 when all the nations of this world become those of The Father and of His Christ is that same time in the world to come.

Then at Revelation 15:5-8, the timeline moves back... to the end of this world with the coming great tribulation with 7 Vials being poured out, which happens PRIOR to Christ's coming to gather the Church on the last 7th Vial, 7th Trumpet, 7th Seal.
 

Davy

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And yet, how is it that you do not understand that Jesus RETURNS at the 6th seal BEFORE the day of the Lord?

Not going there. You're beating that bush to death. I've already shown you what timing that 6th Seal Scripture means, which goes along with the time of Jesus' coming to gather His Church AFTER... the tribulation like He said in the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture.

The truth is..........if you look in my past posts, you will see that I include those verses that you claim I am hiding. The reason that I did not include they is that I was trying to make it as simple as possible so that you might have a better change to see. I wanted as little information as possible so that you would not be confused.

Problem is, you are still confused.

It's pretty obvious to anyone that by your above words, it is you... that is confused in the Bible Scriptures. Even with your claim that the 6th Seal is when Jesus comes while you 'push' man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory reveals how confused you are!!!

Don't you realize that man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory claims that Jesus comes PRIOR to the "great tribulation" to gather His Church?? And that certainly is NOT the 6th Seal timing. Nor is a Pre-trib Rapture the timing of the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture, which instead Jesus says He comes AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints.


So NO, I am NOT confused. It is you that needs help out of confusion. So I don't know, maybe you are old, and your vision is not very good and you cannot read the Scriptures clearly. Or maybe you might be dyslectic a bit, and get things swapped around?
 

Davy

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Yeah, you're right. Most people know that. I usually say the twelve tribes across the earth, to keep some from being confused and thinking they have gained some type of leverage. If I need to say, the twelve tribes across the earth for you so you understand I will try to keep that in mind.

Well, no, I disagree that most folks do NOT know the Bible history about God splitting old Israel into two separate kingdoms, and then scattered the ten northern tribes until they became lost to the Jews, and lost to the world. Yet God knows where they are today, as He has promised to gather them in final.

When Hitler went after the Jews, was he only looking for those from the tribes of Juda, Benjamin and Levi which are of the House of Judah. Or was he also looking for the House of Israel?

Nazi Germany likely didn't know any more Bible history about the Jews of the southern kingdom than those on this forum, which is almost nil. Per 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17, when God scattered the ten northern tribes out of the holy land, only the 3 tribes of the "house of Judah" were left in the land. And those Jews began claiming they ONLY represent Israel, even as it still is today. So they are definitely NOT about the "house of Israel" which label after the 1 Kings 11 split only represents the ten lost tribes of Israel.

The reality per God's Word about the ten tribes, is that His true Israel still is represented by the scattered ten northern tribes and... a remnant of the house of Judah that have accepted Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. Today those are called Christ's Church, along with believing Gentiles. Apostle Paul confirms what I'm saying with that, because Paul in Romans 9 quotes from the Book of Hosea to Roman Gentile believers on Christ, and the Book of Hosea was specifically given by God through His prophet Hosea to the ten tribe "house of Israel". That points to Paul having been ordained to go to Rome to preach The Gospel to both ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" in Europe, along with Gentiles.

When someone says that they are Jewish, does that only mean that they come for the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi?

It points only... to those representing the "house of Judah", or after the split with the "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem/Judea. And I think you may already know this, but are trying to check me out. But what you maybe do not realize, is that I also know about the remnant of the northern ten tribes that left the north when king Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim setup calf idol worship in the north. So a small remnant out of the northern ten tribes refused the idols and left the north and went south and joined with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and they also became known as Jews. The Levites in the north also refused those idols and left and went south and joined with Judah. This is written in 2 Chronicles 11.

Thus after Jeroboam's day, the JEWS of the "house of Judah" became the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and small mix out of the northern ten tribes that refused Jeroboam's calf idols and left the north and joined with Judah. That includes the 'strangers' (foreigners) that lived in Judea also which had to convert to the Jew's religion. And that is still how it is with Jews today.

The majority of the children of Israel PRIOR to God splitting old Israel per 1 Kings 11, was made up of the northern ten tribes of Israel:

Zebulun
Issachar
Dan
Gad
Asher
Naphtali
Ephraim
Manasseh
Rueben
Simeon

Those ten tribes above made up the northern "kingdom of Israel" or "house of Israel" after the split. Before God split old Israel, the label "house of Israel" was put for all... 12 tribes (like in Ex.16:31; Numbers 20:29; 2 Samuel 16:3). But after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, that "house of Israel" label became applies ONLY to the separated ten northern tribes of the "kingdom of Israel".

Only in Acts 2:36 with "all the house of Israel" is that label used for all... 12 tribes of Israelites after Christ's death and crucifixion. In Ezekiel 37:16, that "all the house of Israel" label is used only... for the stick of Ephraim who was head tribe over the ten northern tribes, so even by that it reveals the distinct use of that title per God's Word, and shows one must... pay attention line upon line in study of God's Word.

The ten lost tribes of Israel do have an archeological history. The Assyrian tablets records names which the Assyrians called them by while they were captive in Assyria. One of those names became the name Cimmerian (the 'C' pronounced like a 'K'). There's a lot of history written about the Cimmerian tribes which migrated into Europe, including those of them that passed north of the Black Sea through the Caucasus Mountains into Europe. Scottish leaders circa 1300 A.D. wrote a reference to their heritage from Israel in the Scottish Declaration of Independence (Declaration of Arbroath).

And because Apostle Paul was ordained to preach The Gospel at Rome, as Peter did also, that reveals that Europe was where remnants of the ten lost tribes had migrated to. And because Britain became the first nation on a national scale to accept The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the histories of Glastonbury with some of the early Apostles, and the pillar stone being there which the kings of Ireland, Scotland, and England have been coronated upon, just like king David had, and the kings of old Israel, that further points to the West as being where the majority of the 12 tribes were scattered to, but mainly the ten tribes, since the Jews of the "house of Judah" did not go captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes.

The Jews were scattered later, after their later Babylon captivity by king Nebuchadnezzar, as the majority of Jews captive to Babylon stayed there, and then were scattered through the countries later. Then in 70 A.D. with the Romans having destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd temple, they scattered the Jews in Jerusalem/Judea through the countries (excepting for a very small remnant that remained, because God had promised to always leave one tribe at Jerusalem per 1 Kings 11). As the scattered Jews in old Europe refused to convert to Christ, the European nations exiled them out of their countries and they became vagabonds, so they had no choice but to make their way back to the holy land. Over the centuries those Jews began returning, and then in 1948 by U.N. Charter vote, they became the nation of Israel again. But that's ONLY about the Jews of the old "house of Judah" (only a small remnant of the ten tribes with them).

The majority of the ten tribes are still... scattered to this day, and won't be gathered until Jesus returns at His future coming. And I will say, the majority of those ten tribes today, are located among the Western Christian nations and its allies. Converted Jews are among them, along with believing Gentiles, and all of those together make up Christ's Church today.

Thus God's true Israel, has always been a 'pointer' to the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" which made up the majority of the seed of Israelites. And like Joseph, those ten tribes were separated from their brethren of the "house of Judah" (Judah, Benjamin, and Levi = Jews). That separation is also covered in the Book of Hosea where foretold of His ending the "kingdom of Israel" of ten tribes, and scattering them into the "wilderness" (to the West), and there He would let them have the full weight of their Baal idol worship they forgot Him for. That happened, as the ten lost tribes migrated into Asia Minor and Europe, and took their Baal gods with them. Each area of Europe had their own names and style of Baal idol worship for a period. Then when The Gospel was preached to them after Christ was rejected at Jerusalem, the migrated ten tribes westward to Europe became the western Christian nations. Per Hosea, God said after their Baal worship, He would give the ten tribes a New Covenant, and there they would no longer call Him "Baali", but instead "Ishi". And then in final, He would call them the sons of the living God (which Apostle Paul quoted to believing Gentile Romans in Romans 9).
 

Davy

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The great multitude includes all nation, tongues, tribes etc. However, those 144,000 that are sealed are of the 12 tribes that are listed in the Word of God. Those aren't Gentiles in the 144,000 first fruits.

The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 does not include those of the seed of Israel. It's easy to distinguish there that the 144,000 are only from the seed of Israel.

Yet the whole Rev.7 chapter is about those 'sealed' with God's seal by The Holy Spirit in prep to go through the coming "great tribulation." Those are about the ones mentioned in Rev.9., these I marked in 'red' in my explanation...

Rev 9:4
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
KJV

The opposite of those above point to those WHICH ARE ... SEALED with that "seal of God", representing those sealed of Rev.7, both the 144,000 of the seed of Israel, and the "great multitude" of believing Gentiles.


Come on. The view shown in Rev 7 of the great multitude in heaven is those that are in heaven for the marriage supper. They arrived in heaven with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days. The 7th seal has not even been opened, so don't jump to the 7th vial..............as there are 6 trumpets and 6 vials that occur before the 7th vial.

I am strictly staying with God's Word. The difference between you and I is that you don't understand how to 'rightly divide' the timelines of Bible Scripture.

What you have wrongly been taught to 'focus' on is that Rev.7:14 verse about their having come out of great tribulation. Since you heed man's false pre-trib rapture theory, you naturally float that 14th verse to mean the LIE you have been taught. There is NOTHING written in that verse about their having been 'raptured'.

Rev 7:9-17
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Sorry, but NO saint receives those "white robes" (nor their crowns) until Jesus begins His future reign AFTER His future return. You ought to easily recognize that Biblical fact, even from the Rev.5:9-10 Scripture when the saints are made priests and kings literally reigning over the unsaved nations with Christ, ON EARTH. Oh... but I forgot, man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory likes to treat that Rev.5 chapter to mean the Church is already gathered by Lord Jesus and is in Heaven with HIm! Nope, not so. Those Rev.5:8-10 is specifically about the saints in the world to come, ON EARTH, not a rapture to Heaven.

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God Which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are
these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

So again, have you forgotten what Lord Jesus said about when those "white robes" are handed out?

Rev 3:4-5
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments;
and they shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy.
5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before his angels.
KJV


Those "white robes" are ONLY for the future world to come, when those of the "first resurrection" will literally walk with Jesus in the future world, ON EARTH, as priests and kings. As of today, those in Christ only have the PROMISE of those future "white robes" in order to walk with Jesus in the world to come, after having overcome this present world. Even the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thess.4 have yet to obtain those "white robes", or "crowns" of Rev.4:10.


14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


That Scripture says they came out of... great tribulation. That means they went through it, and overcame that tribulation. There is nothing there that points to man's false pre-trib rapture theory, and the reason why should be simple enough for those who actually stay... with what is written in God's Word. It's because Jesus revealed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).


15
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Don't you realize that "Therefore" is a conjunction that ties the subject of the previous verse to this one? What TIME is that verse 15 about? Do you honestly think that's about a raptured
Church while the "great tribulation" is going on? Again, you should HEED the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture where Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church will be AFTER THE TRIBULATION, not prior to it.

The above 15th verse time is for the world to come, when the new Jerusalem comes to earth. That is the ONLY time when Christ's Church will be next to Jesus and His throne in Jerusalem, ON EARTH, as His priests and kings. That is when the temple of Ezekiel 40 thru 47 will be manifest, ON EARTH. Or did you miss that the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thess.4 must be resurrected first before Jesus gathers them??

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV


Those 16-17 verses are also... about the time of the world to come with the new Jerusalem when it descends out of heaven from God, per Rev.21. And you think the "great tribulation" is still going on by that time? Don't you see how convoluted man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory is?
 

Davy

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Your belief does not follow the Word of God.

You are wrong about that, and my hope is that you discover how wrong 'your' believe on man's false pre-trib rapture theory is before Lord Jesus comes to gather His faithful AFTER the future tribulation, like He said.

The rapture of the Church will occur before the seals are opened. The second harvest for the seed of the woman which are the 12 tribes across the earth will occur at the 6th seal. There is a great multitude in heaven that will be at the marriage supper during the 7th seal, one year wrath of God.

No Biblical proof for that idea at all in God's Word.

Instead, that theory you espouse is from MEN'S DOCTRINES that was first preached by John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain, called a Pre-trib Rapture theory.

The SEALS of Rev.6 are HARD-LINKED to the SEVEN MAIN SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. The final 7th SIGN Jesus gave there is the event of His future coming AFTER... the tribulation to gather His saints (Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27). Thus your witness is not true, and disagrees with that Bible Witness given by The Lord Jesus Christ Himself!

Those in Revelation 7 are in heaven for the marriage supper.

Nope! Per 1 Thess.4 and Zechariah 14 and Acts 1, Lord Jesus returns with all His saints, to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, ON EARTH, His feet touching down upon that Mount of Olives as written. There is NO RAPTURE TO HEAVEN. The "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4:17 is only about the saints still alive on earth being gathered to Jesus in the AIR when Jesus DESCENDS from Heaven, bringing the 'asleep' saints with Him once they are resurrected. That is what Apostle Paul taught.

But the FAKE doctrine of men that you follow... instead lies with claiming that Jesus like a bouncing ball comes out of Heaven, brings the Church up in the sky to Him, and He takes them all back into Heaven to reign while the "great tribulation" is going on upon the earth. That ain't nowhere written in God's Word. It is a LIE from man.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

After the marriage supper, we are part of the armies of heaven that follow Jesus to Armageddon. Then the seventh vial occurs.

That great multitude in heaven during the 7th seal wrath of God proves that what you say does not agree with scripture.

If you bothered to look, (yet you didn't, or you intend to deceive here on purpose), at those Rev.19:1-5 verses that GO WITH THAT SUBJECT ABOVE, (which you left out, intentionally? probably), then you would know... that above Scripture is about the TIME of the world to come in the future new Jerusalem ON EARTH, and NOT for this present world!
 

The Light

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I was very clear on my reference to Paul's 2 Timothy 2:15 reference to 'rightly divide', which you do not understand what that means. You still don't know. But I'll tell you. It means to pay attention line upon line in study of God's Word because of 'how'... it is written, because the TIME of written events can change very quickly between past, present, and future.

The Rev.15:1 verse is a timeline for prior... to Christ's future coming. But the Rev.15:2-4 verses is a timeline jump to the future world to come...

Rev 15:2-4
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.


The above is for after... Christ's return,, and after He has gathered His elect, and they are at the new Jerusalem. That is NOT about a pre-trib rapture. The below verse is for the same... time:
This has nothing to do with the New Jerusalem. Nor am I saying it is the pretribulation rapture.

You still can't figure out Rev 15:2-3 occurs at the 6th seal.......before the 7th seal is opened. You think this refers to the New Jerusalem and have no clue that the wrath of God has to take place before Christ sets up His kingdom.

4 Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? for Thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest.
KJV


That idea of "all nations shall come and worship before Thee" is originally from the Old Testament prophets about the world to come (Psalms 86:9; Isaiah 66; Zechariah 2:11; Zechariah 14:16). Revelation 11:15 when all the nations of this world become those of The Father and of His Christ is that same time in the world to come.

Then at Revelation 15:5-8, the timeline moves back... to the end of this world with the coming great tribulation with 7 Vials being poured out, which happens PRIOR to Christ's coming to gather the Church on the last 7th Vial, 7th Trumpet, 7th Seal.
All nations will come and worship before Him.............AFTER..................the marriage supper of lamb which occurs during the wrath of God which is the 7th seal. You want to skip all those trumpets and vials of the 7th seal and jump right to end. That doesn't work.
 

The Light

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Not going there. You're beating that bush to death. I've already shown you what timing that 6th Seal Scripture means, which goes along with the time of Jesus' coming to gather His Church AFTER... the tribulation like He said in the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture.

And yet you still don't understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and wrath of God is over at the end of the 7th seal. You still think that the tribulation and wrath of God are the same thing. They are not. Read your Bible.
It's pretty obvious to anyone that by your above words, it is you... that is confused in the Bible Scriptures. Even with your claim that the 6th Seal is when Jesus comes while you 'push' man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory reveals how confused you are!!!
Again. Clueless. Have I said that the pretribulation rapture occurs at the 6th seal. The pretribulation rapture occurs before any seals opened.

Don't you realize that man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory claims that Jesus comes PRIOR to the "great tribulation" to gather His Church?? And that certainly is NOT the 6th Seal timing.
Have I ever said the pretrib rapture occurs at the 6th seal. It doesn't. I occurs before the seals are opened.


Nor is a Pre-trib Rapture the timing of the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture, which instead Jesus says He comes AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints.
Exactly. Never said it was.

You should start by figuring out that the great tribulation is when believers are killed for not taking the mark. The wrath of God is when God punishes an unbelieving world. Tribulation ends at the 6th seal. Wrath begins in the 7th seal. Tribulation is not wrath.

So NO, I am NOT confused. It is you that needs help out of confusion. So I don't know, maybe you are old, and your vision is not very good and you cannot read the Scriptures clearly. Or maybe you might be dyslectic a bit, and get things swapped around?
I'm thinking its more that you can't figure out that the great tribulation is not the wrath of God.
 

Davy

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This has nothing to do with the New Jerusalem. Nor am I saying it is the pretribulation rapture.

You still can't figure out Rev 15:2-3 occurs at the 6th seal.......before the 7th seal is opened. You think this refers to the New Jerusalem and have no clue that the wrath of God has to take place before Christ sets up His kingdom.

Why do you keep bringing up that 6th Seal of Rev.6 when you have denied already that the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture isn't about the day of Christ's future gathering of His Church??

You are the one that pointed to man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory...

You said, and I quote:
"The Lord himself comes for the dead in Christ. The alive remain. When He returns for the alive that remain, He brings the dead with Him. When He sends His angels to gather the elect at the 6th seal, it is the Church that is gathered from heaven and those of the 12 tribes that are gathered from the earth."

You also said:
"The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The Church has been gathered before any seals are opened."

And you also said:
"The Church is in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened."


What you said above are all markers of belief on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. Per 1 Thess.4, Lord Jesus comes, the dead saints are resurrected first, and He then brings them with Him from Heaven. And at that SAME time, the saints still alive on earth are gathered to Him and those saints Jesus brings with Him, and then they ALL go to the Mount of Olives, on earth, to begin His "thousand years" reign over the nations.

Your statement that the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened is a PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY. The Church is STILL on earth when the Seals of Rev.6 are opened, simply because Jesus is EXPLAINING the SIGNS of His Olivet discourse with the giving of those SEALS of Rev.6. And per His Olivet discourse, Jesus comes for His saints on the FINAL SIGN of His Olivet discourse, which is what the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures are about! That means claims of the Church being gathered at any TIME before that, is man's false PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY.

You show you heed man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. So pull my other leg, and it plays Jingle-Bells.
 

The Light

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The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 does not include those of the seed of Israel. It's easy to distinguish there that the 144,000 are only from the seed of Israel.
Oh boy. Do you not understand that the 144,000 are the first fruits of a future harvest. If the first fruits are of the twelve tribes, the harvest is of the 12 tribes.

Yet the whole Rev.7 chapter is about those 'sealed' with God's seal by The Holy Spirit in prep to go through the coming "great tribulation." Those are about the ones mentioned in Rev.9., these I marked in 'red' in my explanation...

Rev 9:4
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
KJV

The opposite of those above point to those WHICH ARE ... SEALED with that "seal of God", representing those sealed of Rev.7, both the 144,000 of the seed of Israel, and the "great multitude" of believing Gentiles.
You probably need a little wisdom. I don't think you can follow this, but I will give it a whirl. First off you say those 144,000 are sealed to go through the tribulation.

Here are people that come out of Great Tribulation.

Rev 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Why did they come out of great tribulation? They came out because Jesus came at the 6th seal and there was a harvest. The tribulation is over. It's done. No more tribulation. The harvest is over. All eyes have seen the coming of the Lord. They all return to heaven for the marriage supper. The 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins............tribulation is not wrath.

Look at this verse. This is the great tribulation. This is the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is the coming of Jesus after the tribulation. This is the 6th seal.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Wrath begins at the 7th seal. What does it say at the 6th seal? It says wrath is about to begin.

Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The same thing is seen in Rev 14. Wrath is getting ready to begin.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Bottom line, you don't understand what you are reading. You still think that tribulation is wrath even though the Word of God says the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. You think that those 144,000 are going through the wrath of God. They are not. The first fruits are removed before the harvest. The harvest occurs at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.
 

Davy

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Oh boy. Do you not understand that the 144,000 are the first fruits of a future harvest. If the first fruits are of the twelve tribes, the harvest is of the 12 tribes.

That Rev.7 Scripture says NOTHING about the time of harvest, nor the idea of firstfruits. So you need to quit listening to Jewish fables.

The Rev.7:1-3 verses are about the idea of the SEALING of God's servants IN PREP FOR THE COMING GREAT TRIBULATION. That sealing with God's seal is by The Holy Spirit (2 Cor.1:21-22; Eph.4:30).

That sealing is so as to NOT be deceived during the "great tribulation" event, which is still future to us by the way. It is about the sealing mentioned in Rev.9, as only those NOT sealed with God seal are allowed to be stung by the locust army, and that stinging is about the future deception by the coming false-Messiah which Paul warned us about in 2 Thess.2.

Thus the 144,000 of the seed of the children of Israel is about 12,000 out of each of those tribes, as written. It is definitely NOT about all the seed of Israel being 'sealed' against deception at the end of this world during the coming tribulation. Those Rev.7 Scriptures are LITERAL, not philosophical like you are trying to make them.
 

The Light

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I am strictly staying with God's Word. The difference between you and I is that you don't understand how to 'rightly divide' the timelines of Bible Scripture.

What you have wrongly been taught to 'focus' on is that Rev.7:14 verse about their having come out of great tribulation. Since you heed man's false pre-trib rapture theory, you naturally float that 14th verse to mean the LIE you have been taught. There is NOTHING written in that verse about their having been 'raptured'.
Please. Those that come out of great tribulation are of the 12 tribes across the earth. If you understood Revelation 14 you would know that.

Sorry, but NO saint receives those "white robes" (nor their crowns) until Jesus begins His future reign AFTER His future return. You ought to easily recognize that Biblical fact, even from the Rev.5:9-10 Scripture when the saints are made priests and kings literally reigning over the unsaved nations with Christ, ON EARTH. Oh... but I forgot, man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory likes to treat that Rev.5 chapter to mean the Church is already gathered by Lord Jesus and is in Heaven with HIm! Nope, not so. Those Rev.5:8-10 is specifically about the saints in the world to come, ON EARTH, not a rapture to Heaven.
The word baloney comes to mind.

Those "white robes" are ONLY for the future world to come, when those of the "first resurrection" will literally walk with Jesus in the future world, ON EARTH, as priests and kings. As of today, those in Christ only have the PROMISE of those future "white robes" in order to walk with Jesus in the world to come, after having overcome this present world. Even the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thess.4 have yet to obtain those "white robes", or "crowns" of Rev.4:10.

How quickly you forget the great multitude in heaven that are there for the marriage supper of the Lamb. You just pretend that doesn't happen. That great multitude is in heaven IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days. That's the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the seventh seal. That's all those trumpets and vials you like to pretend aren't there.
14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

That Scripture says they came out of... great tribulation. That means they went through it, and overcame that tribulation. There is nothing there that points to man's false pre-trib rapture theory, and the reason why should be simple enough for those who actually stay... with what is written in God's Word. It's because Jesus revealed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).
Wake up. The rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened. Quit mentioning the pretrib rapture at the 6th seal. Do you not understand what IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION means. So the tribulation is over at the sixth seal and the Church is raptured before any seals are opened, which is before the tribulation.

Don't you realize that "Therefore" is a conjunction that ties the subject of the previous verse to this one? What TIME is that verse 15 about? Do you honestly think that's about a raptured
Church while the "great tribulation" is going on? Again, you should HEED the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture where Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church will be AFTER THE TRIBULATION, not prior to it.
No, I don't think it's about a raptured Church. The rapture of the Church happens before any seals are opened. The rapture that occurs in Matthew 24 is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven. The twelve tribes across the earth which are the seed of the woman which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Both the Church and twelve tribes across the earth that are raptured from the earth immediately after the tribulation.........return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 and Revelation 19

The above 15th verse time is for the world to come, when the new Jerusalem comes to earth. That is the ONLY time when Christ's Church will be next to Jesus and His throne in Jerusalem, ON EARTH, as His priests and kings. That is when the temple of Ezekiel 40 thru 47 will be manifest, ON EARTH. Or did you miss that the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thess.4 must be resurrected first before Jesus gathers them??
I think you missed Jesus gathers them before the seals are opened. And those that come out of Great Tribulation in Revelation 15 are sings the song of Moses as they are of the 12 tribes across the earth. God has regrafted them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV


Those 16-17 verses are also... about the time of the world to come with the new Jerusalem when it descends out of heaven from God, per Rev.21. And you think the "great tribulation" is still going on by that time? Don't you see how convoluted man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory is?
You are unable to grasp that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal, and the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

If you understood the Word of God you would understand that the Lord is going to come in an hour that you think not. Unto them that look for Him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 

The Light

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You are wrong about that, and my hope is that you discover how wrong 'your' believe on man's false pre-trib rapture theory is before Lord Jesus comes to gather His faithful AFTER the future tribulation, like He said.

I was a post tribber because I saw a rapture at the 6th seal as it was marked by the coming of Jesus at the signs of the sun, moon and stars. However, I realized it was not the Church being raptured at the 6th seal. Those raptured are singing the song of Moses.

There are two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests.
No Biblical proof for that idea at all in God's Word.

Instead, that theory you espouse is from MEN'S DOCTRINES that was first preached by John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain, called a Pre-trib Rapture theory.
Never read any of his stuff. I just read the Word of God. As for Darby, apparently he was a wise man as he realized that the nation of Israel would be reborn and that was 1700 plus years after Israel was not a nation.

You, however, have picked up the doctrine of unbelieving men that did not think God would keep His word.

The SEALS of Rev.6 are HARD-LINKED to the SEVEN MAIN SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. The final 7th SIGN Jesus gave there is the event of His future coming AFTER... the tribulation to gather His saints (Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27). Thus your witness is not true, and disagrees with that Bible Witness given by The Lord Jesus Christ Himself!
Baloney. Educate yourself.

The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The 5th seal is the great tribulation in Matthew 24. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest In Matthew 24, before the wrath of God. Those are the only seals Jesus talks about in Matthew 24.

Jesus never talks about the 7th seal in Matthew 24. How is it that you do not understand these things?

Nope! Per 1 Thess.4 and Zechariah 14 and Acts 1, Lord Jesus returns with all His saints, to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, ON EARTH, His feet touching down upon that Mount of Olives as written. There is NO RAPTURE TO HEAVEN. The "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4:17 is only about the saints still alive on earth being gathered to Jesus in the AIR when Jesus DESCENDS from Heaven, bringing the 'asleep' saints with Him once they are resurrected. That is what Apostle Paul taught.

But the FAKE doctrine of men that you follow... instead lies with claiming that Jesus like a bouncing ball comes out of Heaven, brings the Church up in the sky to Him, and He takes them all back into Heaven to reign while the "great tribulation" is going on upon the earth. That ain't nowhere written in God's Word. It is a LIE from man.
LOL. No, the bouncing ball comments are made about your doctrine. Why does Jesus come, raise believers into the sky and set them back on the earth like a bouncing ball.

Believers are taken to heaven..........hence the great in heaven...........for the marriage supper of the Lamb. The great multitude remains in heaven during the 7th seal wrath of God and then returns with Jesus with armies of heaven.
If you bothered to look, (yet you didn't, or you intend to deceive here on purpose), at those Rev.19:1-5 verses that GO WITH THAT SUBJECT ABOVE, (which you left out, intentionally? probably), then you would know... that above Scripture is about the TIME of the world to come in the future new Jerusalem ON EARTH, and NOT for this present world!
No. That's what you are dreaming up. And it is you that left of the verses that tell what the great multitude is doing in heaven.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

The great multitude is heaven during the one year wrath of the God. You know, that 7th seal wrath of God that you ignore and pretend doesn't happen after the 6th seal.
 

The Light

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That Rev.7 Scripture says NOTHING about the time of harvest, nor the idea of firstfruits. So you need to quit listening to Jewish fables.
As I said, you have no understanding of what you are reading. Those 144,000 are sealed. That means they have been born again and believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

Now back to the 6th seal. Jesus sends His angels for a harvest. When that harvest occurs, some come out of great tribulation. Those 144,000 have to be sealed before the 5th seal. We can tell that from Revelation 14. Here is the 5th seal in Revelation 14.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the 144,000 in heaven before the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

So you think those 144,000 are sealed to go through the great tribulation. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Those 144,000 are already part of the great multitude that are in heaven in Revelation 7.

This is nothing but basic logic and understanding what we are reading.

Here is Jesus coming for the harvest at the 6th seal.


Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

You just have no understanding of what you are reading. Revelation reads like Genesis 7. You are given three views of Noah loading the animals and three views of the flood. Noah only loads the animals once and there is one flood.

When you are reading Revelation you get two views of the tribulation and two views of the wrath of God.

Revelation 6 The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows. The 5th seal is the great tribulation. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the harvest.

Revelation 8,9,10 and 11 are the 7th seal wrath of God. It's over. Done. Finished. It's the time of judgement.

You want to see it again?

Revelation 13 and 14 occur in the 1st 6 seals. Revelation 16 is a different view of the events that occur in the 7th seal.

The Rev.7:1-3 verses are about the idea of the SEALING of God's servants IN PREP FOR THE COMING GREAT TRIBULATION. That sealing with God's seal is by The Holy Spirit (2 Cor.1:21-22; Eph.4:30).

That sealing is so as to NOT be deceived during the "great tribulation" event, which is still future to us by the way. It is about the sealing mentioned in Rev.9, as only those NOT sealed with God seal are allowed to be stung by the locust army, and that stinging is about the future deception by the coming false-Messiah which Paul warned us about in 2 Thess.2.
God has a sense of humor. He has most thinking that those 144,000 are sealed and will be on earth during Gods wrath.

First off, the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Those 144,000 are already in heaven before the 6th seal. That's proven above. Believers are not appointed to wrath so without question those 144,000 will not be on earth when those scorpions are stinging everyone.

Thus the 144,000 of the seed of the children of Israel is about 12,000 out of each of those tribes, as written. It is definitely NOT about all the seed of Israel being 'sealed' against deception at the end of this world during the coming tribulation.
I know because those from the 12 tribes will be in heaven when Jesus comes at the 6th seal. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

Those Rev.7 Scriptures are LITERAL, not philosophical like you are trying to make them.
They are definitely literal. But you should understand what you are reading.
 

The Light

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This question says it all about the nonsense that you believe. Which bride? LOL. As if there is more than one. It's sad that you believe so much nonsense.
It's sad that you don't understand that Israel will be regrafted when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It's sad that you don't understand that Israel will be regrafted when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
I understand that you are misinterpreting Romans 11.

I thought about showing you my interpretation of Romans 11, but then changed my mind because it's a lot to cover all at once. It'd be better to take it more slowly. So, let me ask you this. Do you believe that any Israelites have been regrafted in over the past almost 2,000 years? Or do you think the regrafting only applies to all in the nation of Israel at some point in the future whenever the fullness of the Gentiles has come in?
 

tailgator

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As I said, you have no understanding of what you are reading. Those 144,000 are sealed. That means they have been born again and believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

Now back to the 6th seal. Jesus sends His angels for a harvest. When that harvest occurs, some come out of great tribulation. Those 144,000 have to be sealed before the 5th seal. We can tell that from Revelation 14. Here is the 5th seal in Revelation 14.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the 144,000 in heaven before the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

So you think those 144,000 are sealed to go through the great tribulation. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Those 144,000 are already part of the great multitude that are in heaven in Revelation 7.

This is nothing but basic logic and understanding what we are reading.

Here is Jesus coming for the harvest at the 6th seal.


Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

You just have no understanding of what you are reading. Revelation reads like Genesis 7. You are given three views of Noah loading the animals and three views of the flood. Noah only loads the animals once and there is one flood.

When you are reading Revelation you get two views of the tribulation and two views of the wrath of God.

Revelation 6 The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows. The 5th seal is the great tribulation. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the harvest.

Revelation 8,9,10 and 11 are the 7th seal wrath of God. It's over. Done. Finished. It's the time of judgement.

You want to see it again?


Revelation 13 and 14 occur in the 1st 6 seals. Revelation 16 is a different view of the events that occur in the 7th seal.


God has a sense of humor. He has most thinking that those 144,000 are sealed and will be on earth during Gods wrath.

First off, the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Those 144,000 are already in heaven before the 6th seal. That's proven above. Believers are not appointed to wrath so without question those 144,000 will not be on earth when those scorpions are stinging everyone.


I know because those from the 12 tribes will be in heaven when Jesus comes at the 6th seal. Believers are not appointed to wrath.


They are definitely literal. But you should understand what you are reading.
The Israelites who are sealed ,are sealed at the time of God's wrath upon Israel and Judah.
Ezekiel documents what happens to all the other Israelis who are not sealed.Its not a pleasant picture.
 

tailgator

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As I said, you have no understanding of what you are reading. Those 144,000 are sealed. That means they have been born again and believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

Now back to the 6th seal. Jesus sends His angels for a harvest. When that harvest occurs, some come out of great tribulation. Those 144,000 have to be sealed before the 5th seal. We can tell that from Revelation 14. Here is the 5th seal in Revelation 14.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the 144,000 in heaven before the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

So you think those 144,000 are sealed to go through the great tribulation. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Those 144,000 are already part of the great multitude that are in heaven in Revelation 7.

This is nothing but basic logic and understanding what we are reading.

Here is Jesus coming for the harvest at the 6th seal.


Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

You just have no understanding of what you are reading. Revelation reads like Genesis 7. You are given three views of Noah loading the animals and three views of the flood. Noah only loads the animals once and there is one flood.

When you are reading Revelation you get two views of the tribulation and two views of the wrath of God.

Revelation 6 The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows. The 5th seal is the great tribulation. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the harvest.

Revelation 8,9,10 and 11 are the 7th seal wrath of God. It's over. Done. Finished. It's the time of judgement.

You want to see it again?


Revelation 13 and 14 occur in the 1st 6 seals. Revelation 16 is a different view of the events that occur in the 7th seal.


God has a sense of humor. He has most thinking that those 144,000 are sealed and will be on earth during Gods wrath.

First off, the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Those 144,000 are already in heaven before the 6th seal. That's proven above. Believers are not appointed to wrath so without question those 144,000 will not be on earth when those scorpions are stinging everyone.


I know because those from the 12 tribes will be in heaven when Jesus comes at the 6th seal. Believers are not appointed to wrath.


They are definitely literal. But you should understand what you are reading.
PS
The resurrection(when the 144,000 are redeemed from the soil)takes place at the time of the great tribulation Not before.

No one who names are written are delivered before the great tribulation.


Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.


This is taking place at the same time the king of the north goes fourth to destroy and Innihilate many.