Hal Lindsay And Time LaHaye Were Deceived

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:31, the gathering the elect, is not the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians4:14-18.... is also because no one is changed in Matthew 24:31 into incorruptible eternal bodies.

What evidence do you have to back that up? You understand that if two passages don't contain all the same details it doesn't mean they are not related to the same event, right? That's how you can conclude that Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 refer to the same event (Jesus's return). So, what is the basis for you claiming that Matthew 24:31 is not the same event as 1 Thess 4:14-18?

Here are the three resurrections of the dead to take place... and when....

1. the resurrection/rapture event - before the great tribulation begins. Taken to heaven, to return with Jesus.
1Thessalonians4:14-18, 1Thessalonians5:9-11

2. the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints - right after the great tribulation, and Jesus has returned.
Revelation 20:4-6

3. the resurrection of the last day - for the Great White Throne Judgment.
Revelation 20:11-15

How does this agree with what Jesus taught? Do you not even take into consideration what He taught about the resurrection of the dead?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus only knew of one future event when all of the dead will be resurrected. You could count the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked as two resurrections if you want, but Jesus indicated that they will be resurrected at the same hour that is coming in the future. So, your three resurrection theory blatantly contradicts what Jesus taught.

Also, in terms of the resurrection of believers in particular, Jesus only referred to one time when they all will be resurrected. And He said it will happen on the last day (John 6:40). Why do you not take that into consideration? Paul also taught that there will only be one resurrection of all believers at the same time.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

How can you have anyone in Christ being resurrected at any time besides the day of His second coming which will be "the last day" when Jesus said believers will be resurrected (John 6:40)? That blatantly contradicts what Paul taught.

You always cherry pick certain scriptures and draw conclusions from them without taking all of scripture into account.

 

[Davy]

What evidence do you have to back that up? You understand that if two passages don't contain all the same details it doesn't mean they are not related to the same event, right?

Do you hear brethren in Christ what he just said above, that if two Scripture witnesses don't have the SAME DETAILS of an event, then it means they are not related? And it's obvious when he means 'same' he means the same exact wording.

With his above reasoning like that, it OPENS UP his true aim to DISTORT Bible Scripture, because even when two Bible Scripture witnesses ARE speaking of the SAME event, but just using DIFFERENT WORDING, He will instead claim those two Scriptures are not related. Do you see how his type try to play games with you?


An example:

In Acts 1, Christ and His Apostles were upon the Mount of Olives when He ascended to Heaven in their sight. Per the Zechariah 14 Scripture, it reveals Christ's future return will be to that same Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, on earth, Christ's feet touching down upon it, bringing all His saints there with Him.

But Acts 1 with the two angels that appear to the Apostles who saw Jesus ascend, they only said Jesus will come "in like manner" as they saw Him ascend to Heaven. DIFFERENT WORDING than Zechariah 14:4, but the SAME prophecy about Jesus' future return to that Mount of Olives.

But Spiritual Israelite claimed Acts 1 is not Scripture proof that Jesus returns to that Mount of Olives.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Don't need to study the harvest, I already know this. Those that have gotten victory over the beast are seen in Revelation 14 singing the song of Moses.........they are Jews.


Exactly.....which is why I don't understand why you don't think there are two raptures if you are pretrib. That confuses me.


Revelation 19 the coming on white horses is not the second coming. The second Coming occurs at the 6th seal.........immediately after the tribulation of those days.........the great tribulation. The second coming is the harvest seen in Revelation 14 which occurs at the 6th prior to wrath.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 19 occurs toward the end of the wrath God when the armies of heaven return for Armageddon.

The Great Tribulation is the 5th seal.

The Coming of Jesus for the harvest (Rev 14) is the 6th seal

The wrath of God.....Day of the Lord.....is the 7th seal.


EXACTLY. Jesus remains in the clouds. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the 6th seal which is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. Which is also seen here

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is the second coming.........ALL EYES SEE THE COMING OF THE LORD.

But he remains in the clouds and all return to heaven for the marriage supper during the one-year wrath of God.


The second coming is at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds. It is a harvest. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. They are the great multitude seen in heaven in Revelation 7.

Revelation 19 is when the armies of heaven come for Armageddon. After the victory Jesus will set His feet on the mount of Olives......the second advent.



Right AFTER the MARRIAGE SUPPER. The armies of heaven come for Armageddon.

The great multitude get to heaven for the marriage supper when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect seen here.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The event of Jesus coming for the harvest occurs at the 6th seal seen here............which is immediately after the tribulation of those days.......the great tribulation.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This the gathering from heaven and earth which is also seen in Revelation 14. It is the Jews that are gathered from the earth..........the Church is gathered from heaven. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. It is the Jews that come out of great tribulation. The Church is raptured BEFORE the tribulation.

Nope
Rev 19 setting is heaven. The white Horse arrival ends the wrath and is the second coming ,with the saints...in direct defiance to what you are saying.
Saints in heaven gathered to the white horses as Jesus declared in mat 24 after the trib and wrath( which JESUS called the GT)

You are misplacing things because you are trying to define terms and MISPLACING events due to that strict "oh no the trib is not the wrath, and visa viz"
But Rev 19 disrupts that method you are using.
You do not know what to do with Rev 19.

BTW, REV14 is not the main harvest or rapture. It is a second rapture, or gathering of Jews to heaven.
There is no "holding at the clouds."
The firstfruits Jewish gathering to heaven is first fruits gathering. No additives or changes needed.
The main harvest of jews (rev 14:14) is to the same location which is heaven
Your position of the main harvest, but not to the same location as the first fruits, makes no sense at all.
In fact, you added that.
there is no evidence of any of that what you're trying to say.

The only way it all fits is to drop the strict "wrath vs trib" word definition.

Jesus's "GREAT TRIBULATION", is in fact the 7 yr trib of daniel, which the last half is wrath.

 

[Davy]

Nope
Rev 19 setting is heaven. The white Horse arrival ends the wrath and is the second coming ,with the saints...in direct defiance to what you are saying.
Saints in heaven gathered to the white horses as Jesus declared in mat 24 after the trib and wrath( which JESUS called the GT)

You are misplacing things because you are trying to define terms and MISPLACING events due to that strict "oh no the trib is not the wrath, and visa viz"
But Rev 19 disrupts that method you are using.
You do not know what to do with Rev 19.

BTW, REV14 is not the main harvest or rapture. It is a second rapture, or gathering of Jews to heaven.
There is no "holding at the clouds."
The firstfruits Jewish gathering to heaven is first fruits gathering. No additives or changes needed.
The main harvest of jews (rev 14:14) is to the same location which is heaven
Your position of the main harvest, but not to the same location as the first fruits, makes no sense at all.
In fact, you added that.
there is no evidence of any of that what you're trying to say.

The only way it all fits is to drop the strict "wrath vs trib" word definition.

Jesus's "GREAT TRIBULATION", is in fact the 7 yr trib of daniel, which the last half is wrath.

Just more CONFUSION from the doctrines of men instead of staying in God's Word 'as written'.

Christ's future marriage supper only with His elect happens on earth when He returns. That is included within that Rev.19:1-9 section of Scripture. That first section of Rev.19 verses also mentions the POST-destruction of the end time Babylon Harlot.

And then... beginning with Rev.19:11-21, the timeline is going backwards to when Christ comes with His army, from Heaven, to defeat that Babylon Harlot. That is actually a "day of the Lord" timing event, to occur on the LAST DAY of this present world.

Thus those in Christ are expected to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Scriptures according to their timelines.

Nor is there going to be a gathering of the saints by Christ to Heaven when He comes. The so-called 'rapture' by the deceived is the 1 Thess.4:17 "caught up" event of the saints still alive on earth at Christ's DESCENT TO EARTH, and He then takes those, and the resurrected 'asleep' saints, all to the Mount of Olives, on earth, east of Jerusalem per Zech.14. That is what the actual Bible Scripture teaches as written. So the mumbo-jumbo of men's doctrines espoused in the above post is just ramblings from men, and not God's Word as written.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you hear brethren in Christ what he just said above, that if two Scripture witnesses don't have the SAME DETAILS of an event, then it means they are not related?

Here is your terrible reading comprehension skills on display yet again! That is not what I said! Read what I said again only more carefully this time. I said that if two passages don't have the same details then that does not necessarily mean they are not about the same event. So, I said the opposite of what you think I said! You need to take a class on reading comprehension. Seriously.

If you followed the discussion I was having with Doug, I was criticizing his approach to interpreting scripture. He thinks that just because no resurrection is specifically mentioned in Matthew 24:30-31 that means it can't be referring to the same event as 1 Thess 4:14-18. But, that is nonsense because it's not reasonable to expect that two passages can only be about the same event if they contain all the same details.

And it's obvious when he means 'same' he means the same exact wording.

With his above reasoning like that, it OPENS UP his true aim to DISTORT Bible Scripture, because even when two Bible Scripture witnesses ARE speaking of the SAME event, but just using DIFFERENT WORDING, He will instead claim those two Scriptures are not related. Do you see how his type try to play games with you?

Congratulations on making a complete fool of yourself here. You completely missed what I actually said because you are just going out of your way to try to trap me with something so you can say "Aha! See?". You're embarrassing.

An example:

In Acts 1, Christ and His Apostles were upon the Mount of Olives when He ascended to Heaven in their sight. Per the Zechariah 14 Scripture, it reveals Christ's future return will be to that same Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, on earth, Christ's feet touching down upon it, bringing all His saints there with Him.

But Acts 1 with the two angels that appear to the Apostles who saw Jesus ascend, they only said Jesus will come "in like manner" as they saw Him ascend to Heaven. DIFFERENT WORDING than Zechariah 14:4, but the SAME prophecy about Jesus' future return to that Mount of Olives.

But Spiritual Israelite claimed Acts 1 is not Scripture proof that Jesus returns to that Mount of Olives.

What I claim about Acts 1:9-11 is that it does not say that Jesus would return to the same place from which He left, which is true. That is not what it means when it says that He would descend from heaven in like manner that He ascended there. What that means is that He will descend from heaven in like manner that He ascended there, which was visibly and bodily. That's it. But, you are twisting the text as if it says He will come back to the same location from where He left, but it does NOT say that. Zechariah 14 is irrelevant here. I'm talking about what the Acts 1 text actually says. You are trying to either add to what it says or twist what it says to fit your doctrine.

 

[The Light]

Nope
Rev 19 setting is heaven.

I know. Here is what I wrote.

Revelation 19 occurs toward the end of the wrath God when the armies of heaven return for Armageddon.

In the beginning of Revelation 19 the great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. When Jesus comes to earth he comes with the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

The white Horse arrival ends the wrath and is the second coming ,with the saints...in direct defiance to what you are saying.

The coming is when Jesus come for the harvest at the 6th seal. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

The signs of the sun, moon and stars falling from heaven at the 6th seal and the same event happening in Matthew 24 is 100% PROOF POSITIVE that Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal........which is the second coming.

Saints in heaven gathered to the white horses as Jesus declared in mat 24 after the trib and wrath( which JESUS called the GT)

No. Immediately after the tribulation Jesus returns at the 6th seal. The absolute proof the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Further Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. How this gathering or harvest be Armageddon?

You are misplacing things because you are trying to define terms and MISPLACING events due to that strict "oh no the trib is not the wrath, and visa viz"

I am misplacing nothing. According to the Word of God Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord.

But Rev 19 disrupts that method you are using.
You do not know what to do with Rev 19.

It disrupts nothing. Those that are gathered at the 6th seal, when Jesus sends His angels are in heaven for the marriage supper. After the marriage all return to the earth for Armageddon as the armies of heaven.

BTW, REV14 is not the main harvest or rapture. It is a second rapture, or gathering of Jews to heaven.

Revelation 14 is the second harvest. The first harvest is the Church at the grain harvest.....barley and wheat. The second harvest is the Jew being raptured immediately after the tribulation. All go the heaven for the marriage supper.

Those in the nation of Israel, the woman, that have fled to a place of protection remain on earth during the 7th seal wrath of God.

There is no "holding at the clouds."

Jesus remains in the clouds seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

After the angels gather the elect from heaven and earth, which happens at the 6th seal, all return to heaven for the marriage supper. This is the great multitude that is seen in heaven in Revelation 7 and Revelation 19.

The firstfruits Jewish gathering to heaven is first fruits gathering. No additives or changes needed.
The main harvest of jews (rev 14:14) is to the same location which is heaven

agreed.

Your position of the main harvest, but not to the same location as the first fruits, makes no sense at all.
In fact, you added that.

I don't know what you are talking about.

The first fruits are the 144,000 from the 12 tribes which are seen before the throne. The harvest will be of the 12 tribes. They are Jews and are seen in heaven singing the song of Moses. This is the fruit harvest that will occur at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

there is no evidence of any of that what you're trying to say.

Its right in front of you.

The tribulation over at the 6th seal. Can you not see the signs of the sun, moon and stars at the 6th seal. They are the same signs seen in Matthew 24.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation and before the 7th seal Day of the Lord wrath of God.

The only way it all fits is to drop the strict "wrath vs trib" word definition.

No, the only way it fits CORRECTLY is to realize the signs of the sun, moon and stars tell you Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation. Then the 7th seal is opened, and wrath begins.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I know. Here is what I wrote.

Revelation 19 occurs toward the end of the wrath God when the armies of heaven return for Armageddon.

In the beginning of Revelation 19 the great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. When Jesus comes to earth he comes with the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

The coming is when Jesus come for the harvest at the 6th seal. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

The signs of the sun, moon and stars falling from heaven at the 6th seal and the same event happening in Matthew 24 is 100% PROOF POSITIVE that Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal........which is the second coming.


No. Immediately after the tribulation Jesus returns at the 6th seal. The absolute proof the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Further Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. How this gathering or harvest be Armageddon?

I am misplacing nothing. According to the Word of God Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord.


It disrupts nothing. Those that are gathered at the 6th seal, when Jesus sends His angels are in heaven for the marriage supper. After the marriage all return to the earth for Armageddon as the armies of heaven.


Revelation 14 is the second harvest. The first harvest is the Church at the grain harvest.....barley and wheat. The second harvest is the Jew being raptured immediately after the tribulation. All go the heaven for the marriage supper.

Those in the nation of Israel, the woman, that have fled to a place of protection remain on earth during the 7th seal wrath of God.


Jesus remains in the clouds seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

After the angels gather the elect from heaven and earth, which happens at the 6th seal, all return to heaven for the marriage supper. This is the great multitude that is seen in heaven in Revelation 7 and Revelation 19.




agreed.


I don't know what you are talking about.

The first fruits are the 144,000 from the 12 tribes which are seen before the throne. The harvest will be of the 12 tribes. They are Jews and are seen in heaven singing the song of Moses. This is the fruit harvest that will occur at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.


Its right in front of you.

The tribulation over at the 6th seal. Can you not see the signs of the sun, moon and stars at the 6th seal. They are the same signs seen in Matthew 24.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation and before the 7th seal Day of the Lord wrath of God.


No, the only way it fits CORRECTLY is to realize the signs of the sun, moon and stars tell you Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation. Then the 7th seal is opened, and wrath begins.

...and yet you have 2 second comings to earth.
One at your 6th seal interpretation, and another at Rev 19.
Like I said before Rev 19 does not fit your scenario.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I know. Here is what I wrote.

Revelation 19 occurs toward the end of the wrath God when the armies of heaven return for Armageddon.

In the beginning of Revelation 19 the great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. When Jesus comes to earth he comes with the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

The coming is when Jesus come for the harvest at the 6th seal. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

The signs of the sun, moon and stars falling from heaven at the 6th seal and the same event happening in Matthew 24 is 100% PROOF POSITIVE that Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal........which is the second coming.


No. Immediately after the tribulation Jesus returns at the 6th seal. The absolute proof the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Further Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. How this gathering or harvest be Armageddon?

I am misplacing nothing. According to the Word of God Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord.


It disrupts nothing. Those that are gathered at the 6th seal, when Jesus sends His angels are in heaven for the marriage supper. After the marriage all return to the earth for Armageddon as the armies of heaven.


Revelation 14 is the second harvest. The first harvest is the Church at the grain harvest.....barley and wheat. The second harvest is the Jew being raptured immediately after the tribulation. All go the heaven for the marriage supper.

Those in the nation of Israel, the woman, that have fled to a place of protection remain on earth during the 7th seal wrath of God.


Jesus remains in the clouds seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

After the angels gather the elect from heaven and earth, which happens at the 6th seal, all return to heaven for the marriage supper. This is the great multitude that is seen in heaven in Revelation 7 and Revelation 19.




agreed.


I don't know what you are talking about.

The first fruits are the 144,000 from the 12 tribes which are seen before the throne. The harvest will be of the 12 tribes. They are Jews and are seen in heaven singing the song of Moses. This is the fruit harvest that will occur at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.


Its right in front of you.

The tribulation over at the 6th seal. Can you not see the signs of the sun, moon and stars at the 6th seal. They are the same signs seen in Matthew 24.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation and before the 7th seal Day of the Lord wrath of God.


No, the only way it fits CORRECTLY is to realize the signs of the sun, moon and stars tell you Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation. Then the 7th seal is opened, and wrath begins.

Rev14: 14 is the JEWISH main harvest.
NOT the second coming.
Again, your centering on some strict adherence of what you believe is some strict separation of trib vs wrath.
Then you undergird it with verses.
So you have the second coming...and THEN the wrath.
So you now have Jesus on earth in chapters 15 -18.
Impossible.

 

[The Light]

...and yet you have 2 second comings to earth.

No. The second coming is at the 6th seal.

One at your 6th seal interpretation, and another at Rev 19.

How many times have I said....He remains in the clouds at the 6th seal? How many times have I shown Him in the clouds in Rev 14.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

There is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. Where do you think those people come from? They come from the harvest at the 6th seal. It should be obvious.

Like I said before Rev 19 does not fit your scenario.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. Do you see any signs of the sun, moon and stars in Revelation 19? No. The signs are at the 6th seal. Do you see Jesus leading the armies of heaven in the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 and out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword ? Or is Jesus sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven AND EARTH. Is there a great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal that attend the marriage supper? You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 has anything to do with Revelation 19. All the evidence shows that Jesus comes for a harvest immediately after the tribulation of those days. The sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.........and THEN the WRATH of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Just because it's been passed down from preachers that Matthew 24 and Revelation 19 are the same event. Every single piece of evidence proves that this is not correct. It's much easier to understand the book of Revelation when you put things where God says they go. And the Word of God shows that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal as the signs of the sun, moon and stars show.

 

[The Light]

Rev14: 14 is the JEWISH main harvest.
NOT the second coming.

It is the Jewish main harvest AND the second coming. All eyes see the coming of the Lord at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days. And then the seventh seal is opened and the Day of the Lord, the wrath of God begins.

Again, your centering on some strict adherence of what you believe is some strict separation of trib vs wrath.
Then you undergird it with verses.
So you have the second coming...and THEN the wrath.

Exactly. Are you unable to see the signs of the sun, moon and stars in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6? Matthew 24 says immediately after the tribulation. The tribulation is when the Jews are hunted and killed. After the tribulation, the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Seen also here......
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Tribulation is NOT wrath. I don't care how many preachers declare that the tribulation...... when the Jews are hunted down by Satan....is the same thing as God bringing His wrath against and unbelieving world. Use common sense.

So you now have Jesus on earth in chapters 15 -18.
Impossible.

No. Jesus is in heaven for the marriage supper in Revelation 15

Here are those that come out of great tribulation. They are in heaven.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Here they are also in Revelation 7

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

That should tell you that the harvest in Revelation 14 is the same harvest in Revelation 6 at the 6th seal.

Jesus does return at the end of Rev 16 which is the end of the 7th seal. The trumpets and vials of wrath are the 7th seal

Also Jesus is not on earth in Revelation 17 and 18

 

[rebuilder 454]

No. The second coming is at the 6th seal.


How many times have I said....He remains in the clouds at the 6th seal? How many times have I shown Him in the clouds in Rev 14.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

There is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. Where do you think those people come from? They come from the harvest at the 6th seal. It should be obvious.


The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. Do you see any signs of the sun, moon and stars in Revelation 19? No. The signs are at the 6th seal. Do you see Jesus leading the armies of heaven in the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 and out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword ? Or is Jesus sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven AND EARTH. Is there a great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal that attend the marriage supper? You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 has anything to do with Revelation 19. All the evidence shows that Jesus comes for a harvest immediately after the tribulation of those days. The sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.........and THEN the WRATH of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Just because it's been passed down from preachers that Matthew 24 and Revelation 19 are the same event. Every single piece of evidence proves that this is not correct. It's much easier to understand the book of Revelation when you put things where God says they go. And the Word of God shows that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal as the signs of the sun, moon and stars show.

QUOTE:
"The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal."


The only "coming" prewrath is rev14:14, which is only to the air and is the Jewish gathering of romans 9,10,11.

 

[The Light]

QUOTE:
"The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal."


The only "coming" prewrath is rev14:14, which is only to the air and is the Jewish gathering of romans 9,10,11.

EXACTLY.

And Revelation 14:14 occurs at the 6th seal.

Let me repeat...........

How many times have I said....He remains in the clouds at the 6th seal? How many times have I shown Him in the clouds in Rev 14.

 

[tailgator]

EXACTLY.

And Revelation 14:14 occurs at the 6th seal.

Let me repeat...........

How many times have I said....He remains in the clouds at the 6th seal? How many times have I shown Him in the clouds in Rev 14.

And revelation 14:14 takes place after the christians in the land of Israel are killed for their testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

[The Light]

And revelation 14:14 takes place after the christians in the land of Israel are killed for their testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Exactly. Immediately after the tribulation of those days.

The verse you quoted is the great tribulation which is the 5th seal. Then Jesus returns at the 6th seal. Then wrath begins at the 7th seal.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[tailgator]

Exactly. Immediately after the tribulation of those days.

The verse you quoted is the great tribulation which is the 5th seal. Then Jesus returns at the 6th seal. Then wrath begins at the 7th seal.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Tribulation means distress.
The distress the saints are in ,during the 5th seal is much like the distress John was in on the island of Patmos.
In fact,the saints who have already been persecuted and killed such as Stephan are told to wait a little while till their fellow servants are killed as they were.

The 6th ssal is the great tribulation caused by the abomination of desolation described by John in rev 6.
That is when the United states armed forces nuke all of the middle east .The great earthquakes and heavens departing as a scroll being rolled together is the he great tribulation.Hundteds of millions of people being consumed ,poisoned,and left for dead.


Trump was just talking this morning about how powerful they are these days and of armegeddon.

 

[tailgator]

Exactly. Immediately after the tribulation of those days.

The verse you quoted is the great tribulation which is the 5th seal. Then Jesus returns at the 6th seal. Then wrath begins at the 7th seal.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Daniel 11 is a good book.to compared with revelation and the Olivet discourse.

Daniel 11 shows the christians persecution in Israel begins after the king of the north sends his armed forces to Israel in Daniel 11:31.
That is when the christians persecution is n Israel begins.


5th seal
Daniel 11:33-35
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.


This tribulation lasts for 42 months till the time of the end in Daniel 11:40-12:2.
The great tribulation takes place in Daniel 12:1 after the king of the north goes forth to destroy and annihilate many in Daniel 11:44


6th seal
Daniel 12:1
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.



The 144,000 are sealed in their foreheads at this time. They are redeemed from the earth.Resurected


Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame







The king of the norths armed forces in Daniel 11:31 is the second beast of revelation 13 and are them who distributes the mark of the beast to the people in Israel.The persecuted christians in Daniel 11:33-35 are them who die in the Lord from henceforth in revelation 14.




I'm expecting Trump to send the US armed forces to Israel this year.It will probably be a military agreement like the US has with NATO.It may even by the same troops now stationed in Germany.

 

[The Light]

Tribulation means distress.
The distress the saints are in ,during the 5th seal is much like the distress John was in on the island of Patmos.
In fact,the saints who have already been persecuted and killed such as Stephan are told to wait a little while till their fellow servants are killed as they were.

I don't believe those 1st century saints are the ones under the altar at the 5th seal. Those saints will already be in heaven with new bodies before the seals are opened. The dead in Christ rise first which is the barley harvest. Those souls under the altar will not be raised until the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. This is the fruit harvest.

The 6th ssal is the great tribulation caused by the abomination of desolation described by John in rev 6.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Can you show the verses you are talking about where John describes the AOD in Revelation 6?

That is when the United states armed forces nuke all of the middle east .The great earthquakes and heavens departing as a scroll being rolled together is the he great tribulation.Hundteds of millions of people being consumed ,poisoned,and left for dead.

You seem not to realize that there is war in heaven and the stars fall from heaven at the 6th seal.

Trump was just talking this morning about how powerful they are these days and of armegeddon.

Armageddon is coming.

 

[The Light]

Daniel 11 is a good book.to compared with revelation and the Olivet discourse.

Daniel 11 shows the christians persecution in Israel begins after the king of the north sends his armed forces to Israel in Daniel 11:31.
That is when the christians persecution is n Israel begins.


5th seal
Daniel 11:33-35
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.


This tribulation lasts for 42 months till the time of the end in Daniel 11:40-12:2.
The great tribulation takes place in Daniel 12:1 after the king of the north goes forth to destroy and annihilate many in Daniel 11:44


6th seal
Daniel 12:1
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.



The 144,000 are sealed in their foreheads at this time. They are redeemed from the earth.Resurected


Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame

You do realize that these events are about the 12 tribes across the earth, don't you? The Church is already in heaven.

The king of the norths armed forces in Daniel 11:31 is the second beast of revelation 13 and are them who distributes the mark of the beast to the people in Israel.The persecuted christians in Daniel 11:33-35 are them who die in the Lord from henceforth in revelation 14.

They are the seed of the woman Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth. The Church is in heaven.

I'm expecting Trump to send the US armed forces to Israel this year.It will probably be a military agreement like the US has with NATO.It may even by the same troops now stationed in Germany.

We will be there no doubt.

Have you figured out who the king of the south is?

 

[Davy]

I highly recommend that you study the Feasts of God that are a shadow of what is to come. There's not much time left. You need to find the truth and let it be known that you have been mistaken.

That thinking above about using the Old Testament feasts to understand Bible prophecy about the 'end' is from deceived Jews. It COUNTERS the SIGNS of the end that Jesus gave His Church in His Olivet discourse (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21). And it also counters many of Christ's SIGNS He gave His Church per His Book of Revelation about the end of this world.

And the biggest violation of misusing those feasts is with their trying to prove man's FALSE Pre-trib Rapture theory which is NOT written anywhere in God's Word.

 

[Davy]

I know. Here is what I wrote.

Revelation 19 occurs toward the end of the wrath God when the armies of heaven return for Armageddon.

In the beginning of Revelation 19 the great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. When Jesus comes to earth he comes with the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

And that above is the 'falsehood' I was pointing to, which is because of those folks who are deceived with man's false pre-trib rapture theory.

The Revelation 19:1-9 verses are POST-trib views, once the Babylon Harlot is destroyed, and then... Christ's marriage supper with His elect takes place, ON EARTH, not up in Heaven.

The Zechariah 14 Scripture reveals Christ's future Kingdom will be right here, ON EARTH. Here, on earth, at the holy land, is where Zechariah 14 declares Jesus returns WITH all His elect saints to begin His future reign over all... nations.

Revelation 5:10 even declares that Christ's elect saints will reign ON THE EARTH in His future Kingdom.