Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Where did you pick up that "purgatory" stuff, Reggie?
Good people go heaven, Evil people go hell?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yes, doesn’t it strike you as strange that this requirement for life in heaven cannot be agreed upon even by those who make the claim that they are among those chosen? What does it mean to be “born again”?
Nicodemus didn’t know the answer and neither do the majority who profess to be “Christians”.
In this “time of the end”, all who profess to be Christians should know the answers to a lot of questions, because we are all supposed to be preachers of the word….so how can we preach about what we do not understand?
The most basic knowledge that Jesus spoke was about God’s Kingdom and even in the Lord’s Prayer, he said “thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”….
What is God’s Kingdom?
How does it “come” ?
How does is result in God’s will being “done on earth as it is in heaven”?
I have not found too many “Christians” who can answer those questions from their indoctrinated perspective….so either their perspective is wrong, or Jesus was talking nonsense.
What did Jews understand “God’s Kingdom” to be? How did they think it would “come” and what would it’s establishment mean for those in both heaven and on earth?
What was their hope for the dead? Where did they think the dead were?
Where did the notion of “heaven or hell” as destinations for the dead originate? Not from the Bible.
Those who sit in any building, no matter what day of the week, if they are not being taught the truth, what is the point? The percentage of “real Christians”, Jesus already foretold…..he said, ”few” will find the narrow exit gate that leads to the cramped and difficult road to life….most will choose the easy way…one that does not make demands on them, but allows them to practice their own “Christianity”, their way. But their way leads to “destruction”. (Matt 7:13-14) They won’t know that until the judgment, when they offer Jesus their excuses. (Matt 7:21-23) He won’t accept them.
They have fashioned a god that reflects themselves, not the God about whom Jesus came to teach us. Serving a god made in their own image is convenient and allows them to accommodate non-denominationalism, which sounds good in theory but is impossible in practice. Christianity was not denominational when Jesus taught his people one truth….and he preached only to the Jews…..not to the Jewish leadership, but to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.
Why were these ones “lost”? Because the religious leaders treated them like dirt, unworthy of their time and attention.
Jesus showed that every lost sheep was precious and no effort was to be spared in finding it. This is what drew people to Jesus…his love and his compassion and his understanding of their inherited sinfulness. He taught them how to gain forgiveness for their sins without slaughtering another animal to do so……Jesus himself would pay the price of their redemption….permanently.
With his death, a new covenant came into force…..the details of which most people are ignorant. They believe what has been handed onto them, just like the Jews who rejected Jesus because he exposed the Pharisees for what they were.…”teaching the commands of men as doctrines”. (Matt 15:7-9) This he said, invalidated their worship.
History is repeating and no one seems to notice but the few to whom God has revealed his truth.
It's Biblical !
Jesus went down to pick them up ! Regardless so some of the RCC BS and the Prots BS as well ? It's Biblical ! not to mention the deal of going streight to Heaven or Hell is total BS !
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Could you explain this please Reggie…where is it Biblical?
The idea of purgatory is entirely Catholic….it supposes the existence of immortal souls, which can experience some kind of discipline or punishment after death…..but this notion is not from the Bible either….
I just pointed it all out, in that Jesus went and took then OT Saints to Heaven !
I do not care what the RCC may claim.
I seen it's a fact in the Bible ! Jesus went and did it !
Now as to the childish possition of only just, one going to Heven of Hell ? well what of all the people who do not deserve to be in Hell ! and all them who do not deserve Heaven !
I am not interested in what what maybe played out by the RCC on the subject at all. But the fact remains Jesus did ! so them Hebrew Saints were not in Hell in fact !
I ask myself is my Dad in Heaven or Hell ? I think not in fact, to be totaly honest.
I do not believe that one can go to Heaven unless one is truly born again and Soul is Saved, for they are worthy of the Kingdom of God in fact as the Bible points out who can enter into the Kingdom of God ?
Now in regards one, who when they were of faith in regards Christianity ? well the Bible says. Oh you of little faith ?
Now one of little faith is a good thing, for a tree has to start from a seed in fact ! but as for the weeds ? That is in regards that of this world can easy Choke the small plant ! and Bible points out that the seed can fall on ground that is not good ?
So I have seen my whole life people in Church that I remember when they were yopung that they picked up on the Light and held it as a faith with conviction in fact ! but years down the treack I seen such people again and They said to me, You do not sill believe all that Religious crap we learnt do you. So I say Yes I do in fact and much stronger than ever believe because I have the Faith that can move mountains !
My possition on faith in Christ Jesus is 100% ! my faith in Religion is something other however ?
One must abide in Christ Jesus as he will in you ! for we are his body and he is the head their of in fact !
Fact is that this world is Full of Deceptions and Delusions ! So we are to be Called out from this world in fact and into the Kingdom of God ! One need strength like a tree to take on such a task, a small tree can be undermined for the weeds can choke and stunt that growth !
Israel is a Tree ! remember Nathaniel and all that is written of him ? He was given the Name Israel in fact by Jesus himself and what Jesus said to Nathan is so great, That all should know it all off by heart ! because it is a Key ! just as Jacob is called Israel by an Angel ! is a Key ! that one must understand ! because solid foundations are built on such ! Religious who stray on such a Key, are doomed to get off track !
It's best to have a Bible with the words of Jesus written in Red ! So as to get a better handle on issues within the books. then things can jump out at you from the words of the Bible much better !
When I have read the Bible things were like, ok I am some what lost in what may be said ? but as the years go by I am just smashed with something in one of the other books of the Bible and I get Hit ! Oh boy ! I have just worked out the issue I had in question !
I would wright down the Issue that I had in some book of questions, one could call them. and then I go back ? Haha Bingo, I know truly where they were coming from ! what Joy ! The Bible is the most Joy ! it's a living thing one could say, for it's all about Life !
Now Jesus came that you would have Life in abundance ! now a carnal person knows not ! for they do not have the Life in fact ! because they are Lost in fact ! And the truly born again am Found ! Their is a great gulf betwen the two !
But only the Saved are worthy of Heaven !
Now Carnal man thinks it's all his way and they will make the rules up ? and you find talking to any carnal person that they will easy swallow some things ? like Heaven and Hell they may in fact ! but would a carnal man swallow Purgatory ? No ! Well why is that ? I ask my self. they know nothing !
If I am truly honest my Dad is not in Heaven but he does not deserve Hell ! I am sure of that !
So what am I making out ? along with the lines of a Carnal dude ? and justy say, Yes he is in Heaven ? Now who is it that I am truly talking to ? just a subject between myself and another, who ever that may be ? or I have to ask with regards with God ! So I have to be totaly honest !
Look my full on RCC Aunty, said to me that her Hubby was in Heaven now ? I did not question it to her, fair enough ? but he was a down right bastard and not of faith in fact she knows it !
It is not up to me to say who will or not enter into Heaven or Hell ! but I clearly do have my doubts especially when one makes idiot remarks against the Holy Spirit, time and time again ! as I know so many who do such year in year out ! So I have another old mat I knew all of his life as I have to be honest, I do not believe he would of gone to Heaven myself ! but it's not for me to say, that he went to hell, regardless of all of his boasting against the Bible and all.
But if I truly believe that their is only a Heaven and a Hell ! then one would have to say that all such went to Hell in fact ! Openly ! and dictated that possition ! as if I know where they went ? But Bible forbids that, for it's not out call, but Christ Jesus !
People may say one thing to anothers ? but in their true heart another ?
Of People who have little faith ? well that's a good thing but I would say that if they held that once truly, it was God given and that spark is still some where within them, but they will not profess such to others openly ? for the cares of this world ! but if they truly openly sit down and listen to a serious person in Christ Jesus they will grow !
They were just rail roaded on to the wrong track ! but not of enought faith to stand up to this world to mow the weeds down ! And this is when it all comes back to Nathanel ? what was he doing and why ? under that Tree.
David Lamb
Member
Nobody deserves to be in heaven. The bible says we are all sinners in God's sight. That is why salvation is because of God's grace, not because we deserve it.
Where in the bible do you read that Jesus went to purgatory?
That's not because they are worthy but because their Saviour, Jesus Christ is.
No they are not; they are saved by God's grace, His undeserved favour. If they were worthy in themselves, Jesus would npot have needed to be crucified to save them.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your detailed response Reggie....you have raised some interesting points.
Is it your position that because there are many who do not deserve heaven, but also do not deserve hell, that a place like “purgatory” must therefore exist?
When I studied the Bible, and found out that there was no immortal souls at all, but that the dead merely “sleep”, awaiting a resurrection, (which Jesus himself performed) my anguish was replaced by relief.
Jesus told us that the dead will be resurrected and the raising of his friend Lazarus confirmed that the dead are just “sleeping”. (John 11:11-14; John 5:28-29)
Philip, after responding to Jesus’ call, “Be my follower,” immediately looked up his friend Nathanael and invited him to “come and see” the Messiah. Nathanael asked, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” but then responded to the invitation. Jesus, seeing him approach, remarked: “See, an Israelite for a certainty, in whom there is no deceit.”
Nathanael must have been an exceptional man for Jesus to make a statement like that. Because Jesus said this and stated that he saw Nathanael under a fig tree before Philip called him, Nathanael confessed that Jesus was indeed “the Son of God, . . . King of Israel.” Jesus assured him that he would “see things greater than these.” (John 1:43-51)
God will not punish people for their ignorance, unless it is wilful.
Nathanael was a man whom Jesus knew before he chose him as an apostle. His initial skepticism was overcome at Jesus response to him. He was not called “Israel” but was a natural born “Israelite” in whom Jesus saw good qualities....a man devoid of deceit....unlike Judas.
Is it your position that because there are many who do not deserve heaven, but also do not deserve hell, that a place like “purgatory” must therefore exist?
What was the belief of those OT Jews? Did they entertain a hope of going to heaven? The Bible tells us that Jewish belief regarding the dead was that they were in “Sheol” which in the Jewish Tanakh is translated as “the grave”....a place where there was no activity, no planning or knowledge. Even their emotions have perished. How can “love” be missing if the soul lives on? (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)
Can you provide the Scripture that confirms those things, because I cannot recall such Scripture.
This is what makes me wonder about your belief that there are only two destinations for all mankind? Is it that there are only two destinations...or is it that we do not understand what those two destinations actually are? Is there a place where those who have died, wait for their lives to be restored? This is what Jews believed....that the dead “sleep”.....they are not conscious anywhere, not in a blissful state in heaven, or suffering in a hell of torment. The RCC adopted belief in immortal souls from paganism...it is not taught in the Bible at all.
I too lost my father, who died suddenly at the age of 52.....he was a good man, but not a church goer. My own anguish after his passing was he in “hell” suffering because of his failure to attend church?
When I studied the Bible, and found out that there was no immortal souls at all, but that the dead merely “sleep”, awaiting a resurrection, (which Jesus himself performed) my anguish was replaced by relief.
Jesus told us that the dead will be resurrected and the raising of his friend Lazarus confirmed that the dead are just “sleeping”. (John 11:11-14; John 5:28-29)
Not much at all is written about Nathanael, (also known as Bartholomew) who began following Jesus early in the Master’s ministry....how is “Israel a tree” when it was the man, not the tree that Jesus acknowledged?
Philip, after responding to Jesus’ call, “Be my follower,” immediately looked up his friend Nathanael and invited him to “come and see” the Messiah. Nathanael asked, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” but then responded to the invitation. Jesus, seeing him approach, remarked: “See, an Israelite for a certainty, in whom there is no deceit.”
Nathanael must have been an exceptional man for Jesus to make a statement like that. Because Jesus said this and stated that he saw Nathanael under a fig tree before Philip called him, Nathanael confessed that Jesus was indeed “the Son of God, . . . King of Israel.” Jesus assured him that he would “see things greater than these.” (John 1:43-51)
That is not what the Bible teaches.....there are the elect who will serve a role in heaven as “kings and priests” by God’s choosing (Rev 20:6)....but these are not the only ones saved....the subjects of those heavenly rulers will live forever on earth. (Rev 21:2-4) They include all the resurrected dead, as Jesus said that even ‘those who practiced vile things’ would be given another opportunity at life. (John 5:28-29) Many such ones lived at times and in places where the true God was not known.
God will not punish people for their ignorance, unless it is wilful.
I was sure of that too, which is why I started to examine the Bible for myself, ditching the lies I was taught by my church, passed on from false Catholic doctrines. There is another answer....one that ties all scripture together.
There is an alternative view that accommodates so many people who do not deserve either destiny. These have not ‘fallen through the cracks’, nor have they merited a destiny that they have not deserved.
The “weeds” of Satan’s false religious system have choked the world for centuries. Not just the false religions of the world, but the false worship imbedded in the counterfeit Christianity that he also sowed in the world as well.
Nathanael was a man whom Jesus knew before he chose him as an apostle. His initial skepticism was overcome at Jesus response to him. He was not called “Israel” but was a natural born “Israelite” in whom Jesus saw good qualities....a man devoid of deceit....unlike Judas.
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So Jesus did not bring the OT saints up to Heaven with him ?
If one has the Grace of God you are worthy of Christ Jesus in fact, for it's God given in fact.
In the end it does not matter what one thinks, but that Jesus will have you in Heaven.
I am not sure that Nathan was Bart.
Sin is Sin regardless, so ignorance is no excuse in fact.
I only see people going to Church as a tool. and if People within are not Saved ! what is the point in fact ! religion does not save ones Soul in fact. Only Christ Jesus can do that !
When I went to Church I seen and knew who they were, OK some were devout to their religion ? but not clearly Saved ! I have no regard of anyones Religion truly, For I only look for Christ that is within one period !
I like people who love to talk about Christ Jesus all day long regardless even if we do not agree. as long as they are willing and not dictating just Religious mantras of their so called Church denomination ? that they have lonly earnt by rote and indoctrination nonsense.
Sure one who goes to Church must go, so as to be eager to learn ? but the hope is for one to only come to Christ Jesus in fact ! when I went to Church it was to learn, Bible studdy was the best but Priest only peddled their denominations claims period, I wanted to debate on other denominations, in depth for i was looking to understand why that ones claims had the upper hand ? on an issue ?
Many only go to Church for anything but to learn anything ! as such is obvious when talking to them, they feer talking on the subject. they will talk on anything but !
I was Like, see here the RCC Doctrines say this ! and you Lutherins are saying that they say something other ?
That's a out right Lie bro ! because it is clear in the Doctrine what is the offical !
So I am not tollereating you lot ?
But then when i talked to RCC they were just as the Prots said they were in fact ! not to mention that they made it clear that they did not want me to talk about anything in depth much at all and said that they did not want me talking to any of the retired Priest !
So i talked to the RCC people and said now listen your doctrines of the RCC say other, than you claim !
So who is peddling such nonsense to the RCC people ? Well i found out most Priest in the RCC to be just good for nothing stupid Communist with a bit of voodoo religious dribble tossed in and gay idiots or child molesters ! or full on supporting such as childmolesters in a truly cunning way ! Not all tho !
Organised Religion ? can be of this world !
Now what would you make of this dear Aunty Jane. I walked into RCC Church with wife and father and mother inlaw, for my Childs School and the Priest says to all !
You are all Awesome !
Then he says, to say to the ones around fround and back of you and say that you are Awesome to them all !
Now I refused ! Why ? well fact is that we are not Awesome at all in fact ! and if I were why would i be in Church !
To me their is only One who is Awsome in fact ! and that is that, we do have an Awesome God ! Period !
But I am not Awesome ! and my car or it's wheels are not awesome. I hate when people take Gods Name invain ! Am I wrong ?
I am never Wrong ! HAHA I just jused that line from Miss Trunchbull
heehee !
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It was not uncommon for people to be known by more than one name in Bible times. For example, “Simon the son of John” also came to be known as Cephas and Peter. (John 1:42) Nor was it exceptional for Nathanael to be called Bartholomew, or the “Son of Tolmai,” as another man was called simply Bartimaeus, or “Son of Timaeus.” (Mark 10:46)
The two names, Nathanael and Bartholomew, are used interchangeably by Christian writers of following centuries…..so the evidence shows that Nathanael also was known by two names.
Not really so.….as Paul stated in Rom 2:14-15…
”For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused.”
When there is no law, how can someone break it? How can someone who has never heard of God or his son, come to worship “the only true God” and keep commandments they have never heard?
Paul also wrote…”I would not have come to know sin had it not been for the Law. For example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: “You must not covet.”
On what basis will God then judge those who through circumstances (out of their control) never learnt what God’s commands are?
We are all given a conscience, which prompts an instinctive action carried out from an internal source. That “small inner voice” that tells us when something is wrong. Paul’s words above, then have a deeper meaning so that God has a basis for judgment greater than what appears on the surface. The heart of an individual can be guided by that ‘small inner voice’ even though they may never have heard Bible teachings.
God knows when evil things are carried out in wickedness or in ignorance. The hearts of individuals will tell him.
Sadly, attendance at church is a duty for some, in the mistaken notion that their minister or priest knows it all for them, and they need not put in any effort to form a close relationship with God and his Christ for themselves. They just show up and are spoon fed whatever that clergyman wants to tell them. But the motive is often just like a bit of insurance, (against going to hell) as long as they show up and put money in the coffers, their obligation is done….they are off to heaven when they die….or so they assume….
Me too, but the indoctrination of some will not yield to Scripture…..doctrines are so ingrained that nothing will shift them, so God allows them to keep their “delusions” because that is what they love, as it says in 2 Thess 2:9-12….
”But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a strong delusion mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”
If one has a “love of the truth”, then that will triumph over any false belief. The Bible itself will reveal its truth and confirm it, making a false doctrine feel out of place in the big picture. (Heb 4:12-13)
In my experience, not many in Christendom have a “big picture” that begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation. The Bible is one story, and what God started in the beginning, is what he will accomplish at the end. (Isa 55:11) People seem to get hung up on going to heaven, when that was never in God’s original purpose for the human race.
I like to examine what others believe because it helps me see where they are coming from and what has influenced their thinking on doctrinal matters. In my years of going to church, I really don’t think I learned anything. I had a lot of questions that were never answered until I studied the Bible for myself. I learned more after I left…more that I ever thought possible.
That is certainly true, but looking back in Bible history, God’s people have always been organized…otherwise there would have been chaos. God is a God of order as the universe demonstrates…..and as creation clearly shows, where we see creatures reproducing their own kind without any thought of trying to reproduce with other species even of their own “kind”.
Lions and tigers for example….humans can force a mating between these two great cats, but their offspring are invariably sterile, meaning that interspecies creatures have genetic barriers that cannot be crossed. Mules are another example, as a cross between a horse and a donkey, another man made breed, who cannot reproduce.
Look at how “organized” God’s people were in the wilderness after they left Egypt. They had been in Egypt for generations but they were kept separate as slaves, and also in their worship. They knew who their God was as descendants of Jacob.
I guess when anyone gives support in any way to a dying church system, they might be considered “awesome” because all such support means money for the church.…and money seems to speak all languages. The biggest money spinners for Christendom are Christmas and Easter, but the churches know full well that both are pagan to their bootstraps, but will never let that cash cow go just because it has dubious origins. They will justify what God condemns, fusing the truth with pagan falsehood. (2 Cor 6:14-18) God says “no” to that.
Can’t argue with that…..but having said that I agree with Jesus who said…..
“This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3)
We have to “know” the one Jesus called “the only true God” AND “the one he sent” That is just two….not three.
So this is a salvation issue….who is “the only true God”?
The God of Jesus Christ is the one we need to know. This is a God he serves and worships even in heaven. (Rev 3:12) Jesus is said to be “God’s holy servant”. (Acts 4:27)
Well, God hates it too, but what does it mean to “take God’s name in vain”?
What do you think it means?
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Yes my friend and there is none who is good but GOD .
Lord who then can be saved , With MAN this is IM the POSS IBLE
but not with GOD . GOD all mighty creater of all that is
long ago determined HOW to save the world .
HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST . that be the name this lamb preaches and shall offer no false hope to any soul that lives .
IF one wants to be saved , if one desires to have eternal life and not perish , I GOTS ONE NAME
BELIEVE YE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
Yes sir i am a stickler to the one true gospel . Giving out any other name or hope
is like a man tossing a drowing victim a one hundred pound iron chain with a ten pound iron weight
and saying here grab hold of this and save thine own self . THEY WILL SINK in delusion and will not be saved
and he or she who threw that line to them WILL be held accountable for their blood .
I have seen a great and mighty evil that has come upon even christendom
they now throw out a false hope love line to the lost and that cannot save them .
The true gospel is under attack like never before and the adversary of our souls has brought
a lie to town that he calls love but it AINT LOVE . we preach JESUS and no other name . as i am sure you do agree .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
He who believes NOT the testimony that GOD gave of the SON
calls GOD a liar .
john wrote long ago .
He who believes not is condmened already for he has not beleived in the NAME of the only begotten Son of GOD .
JESUS said this years earlier to john and the other apostles . And as we see in johns letter
HE SURE beleived it too .
As he even writes HE who hears us IS OF GOD
but he who hears not us IS NOT of GOD .
Imagine calling GOD a liar and rejecting Him . Wont bode well on judgment day , not at all .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
your are correct that true christainity does teach what the bible says .
Same JESUS said he who beleives not will be damned .
Same Jesus said to even the jews who said GOD IS OUR FATHER ,
ye are of your father the devil . Unbelieving wont save squat .
One must BELIEVE IN JESUS THE CHRIST .
GOD said so , THE SON said so , the apostels said so . SO TRUTH IT BE INDEED .
i notice a lot come to always try and plant doubts . And sure try and offer up a false hope
RATHER than preaching the dire need to BELEIVE JESUS . that is like offering
a man in a wild forest fire a cup of gasoline to save himself with , IT WONT BODE WELL and it WONT save him .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
I do understand the Bart and Nathanel claim many years ago but i do not believe it is 100% so. Maybe he is Stephen ?
What did Stephen see ?
No one is awesome ! but Christ Jesus in fact ! beat that ? no one can in fact ! Period !
I have no regards about if one knowes not the Law ! I am on about Christians ! period !
Organised Christians is another thing ! it's about being involved in Christ fires and foremost in your lives, not just a blind faith in some worldly religious organisation ?
I am not on about Gen and Revalation being peddled ? For that could just be a possition of the Lost ? for they are looking ? But they do not have Christ Jesus in themselves in fact ! for it's the Now to me because I am Saved ! I am not Lost to this World ? I know Christ Jesus is the One ! and I do say that from when Christ went to Heaven, people who truly knew Jesus was the Christ ! that such as they have gone to Heaven !
The point I make is not against Gen and Rev ? but I do now of people who have it all wrong, for they are not saved in fact ! for they are truly still seeking ? for they are Lost ! They want to see Jesus in the flesh ! but I have him and have no need to seek because I am found in fact, so why seek for a so called man ? for that proves one is only Lost ! they demand he come ? I do not, for I have !
The Day will come thou for the whole world tho for sure ! but the Devil will come firest and most od the World will idolise this creep ! for Christ Jesus nevewr came in the flesh in fact but Only Jesus came in the flesh in fact ! No one knew he was the Christ Jewsus untill he went to Heaven in fact ! Their were some who were worthy of Moses and it was they who had faith that Jesus was the one ? but they did not know him untill he went to Heaven in fact !
Now Nathaniel said Jesus was ! remember that, but what did Jesus say to him regarding what he would see ? Bingo !
If one does not truly understand that you need the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit to know, then one is Lost ! 3 are as in one as the same but you can not pull them apart in fact for they are as One in the same in fact, but 3 different identitys.
Like who would one come to know anything without the Holy Spirit in fact !
Now how would one know Salvation = 'Jesus' if one did not have the Holy Spirit !
Now Jesus only did the will of the Father in fact !
Now Salvation being our Lord ? = Christ Jesus ? so who is Christ Jesus truly ? well well he is God with us in fact ! Emamuel !
No one can come to the Father but through God with Us in fact ! so from the understanding of the Holy Spirit that gives you understanding ? you can not by pass Christ Jesus in fact ! for the Father is not a Man in fact but much more than !
Jesus consern is with us ? The prime issue is Sin ! He came for us, so that we would have life in abundance in fact ! and that is not as a carnal person would think of in fact at all, but it is much more, as it's a Gift of God ! one is never alone then, because one is at one with God in fact ! you need that wellspring for that is yours to drink from spiritualy in Christ Jesus in fact ! you can never turn your back on such that you know 100%.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
It's too bad you don't accept the whole counsel of God. Sad....
Very said when people who claim to be "christian" (such as the SDA cult peoples) believe Jesus is a liar... Jesus says those that go to hell will burn in fire that shall NOT be quenched into everlasting punishment
Mark 9:43-44
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30, and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. Only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do. Luke 16:22–24 shows that fire signifies continued existence in pain as Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this.
Another good case against annihilationism is ”And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” in Rev. 14:11.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You know what’s sadder? People responding to posts when they haven’t a clue about the subject matter….
Jews did not believe in “heaven or hell” as destinations for human souls, because the human soul required a human body in order to live. A soul has to breathe and is active, but at death, the soul dies. (Ezek 18:4) That is what being mortal, means. There is no such thing in the Bible as a disembodied soul…..there are however disembodied spirits, whom the Bible identifies as either angels or demons….there are no spirits of dead people walking around in some holding tank for thousands of years. What would be the point of that?
There is no immediate life after death….that is just what the devil wants people to believe so that his first lie appears to be the truth. The dead simply sleep until God awakens them just as Jesus raised Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)
I guess you missed the meaning of the word “hell” when you did your extensive Bible study….
The word translated “hell” in Mark 9:43-44 is “Ge·henʹna”….not “hades”…so what is the difference in Greek compared to the English translation, which gives us the same meaning for two very different words?
What did Jews understand “Ge·henʹna” to mean…as opposed to “hades”?
“Ge·henʹna” was Jerusalem’s garbage dump, outside the city walls. Fires were kept burning there day and night to consume the refuse. The carcasses of dead animals and sometimes the bodies of executed criminals were cast into the fire for disposal because that person was not considered worthy of a decent burial and therefore not considered worthy of a resurrection….they would remain forever dead and their bodies forever obliterated.
That is your “hellfire”…..a place where “the fire is not quenched and the worms (maggots) never die“ because what the flames missed, the maggots finished off.
”Hades” OTOH was the grave…..nothing more sinister than that…..the place where all the dead go.
Hades gets emptied at the resurrection. (Rev 20:13-14) Death and hades end up in the “lake of fire”, another name for Gehenna….a place from which nothing, and no one returns.
Matt 25:46…
What would “everlasting punishment” really mean to a first century Jew? Since there was no immortal soul to be punished in the first place, they believed that the dead slept in their graves until the resurrection.
“Everlasting punishment“ to a Jew meant not being resurrected at all…..everlasting death was the “everlasting punishment“.
And that last scripture you quoted at 2 Thess 1:9…did you miss the words “everlasting destruction” there? That is what Jewish disciples of Jesus understood him to mean. Souls are “destroyed” in Gehenna. (Matt 10:28) There is no life after death where souls are flirting off to heaven….
I’m sure that wherever you got those cited verses, they have nothing to do with your own investigation of the Bible because, if they were the result of your own study, you would know the context and the way first century Jews understood what Jesus and his apostles, taught. He was a Jew, who taught Jews from Jewish Scripture….
You are correct when you say that ‘only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth’…..you are acquainted with spiritual death I assume? This is where people are alive in the world , but dead to God. These are the ones who, like the Pharisees, weep and gnash their teeth over what Jesus taught because it showed them up for the wicked hypocrites that they were. (Matt 23:33)
The “darkness” is where there is no light…it is spiritual darkness...a place where the spiritually dead…live with no spiritual light to show them the way to life.
Eph 2:1-5…
“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved“.(ESV)
All who come to Christ, must do so of their own free will….Christians are not like the Jews, in that no one is born a Christian. Before we came to accept Jesus as our savior, we too were dead in our trespasses and sins, like the people of the nations were in Jesus’ day…..but the Jews, as a fleshly nation also were dead in their sins and remained such because they never did accept Jesus as their savior.
Actually “fire“ is a symbol of complete destruction….what is left after a wildfire?….Ashes.
God’s anger is also described as a fire….because it devours his enemies.
Anyone who thinks the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is literal, has never really read it…or understood it from the Jewish perspective. Taken literally, it is ridiculous!
And what happens after a fire has raged through a forest? The smoke rises for days after the fire is brought under control…You see it is the smoke that serves as a visual reminder of what happened…..this is what Rev 14:11 alludes to.
It isn’t the torment that lasts forever…it is the smoke….the reminder of what happened that will keep it from ever happening again.
You should perhaps do some serious Bible study……you might learn that there is a whole other world of truth out thee……but you need to think outside the box that Christendom has placed you in….
Or do you meanby tha
So you are as bad as all of us dividing the church.
Or do you mean by that, that you are no longer ger Christian?
So you are as bad as all of us dividing the church.
Or do you mean by that, that you are no longer ger Christian?
It is the best place for anyone to be, is in church. There is always the chance that something will be used by God to start them thinking.
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