The Second Death Destroys Man's False Amill Theory

[Davy]

The record is clear, Davy. You can go back through this thread and see, if you want. Something tells me you won't bother, and that's fine with me. But the record is clear.

That response certainly is a bunch of coded malarkey.

But that's alright, I knew you couldn't back up your false claim of having responded to all my Scripture references and quotes.

I wouldn't call it a "doctrine," really, it just is.

More 'coded' malarkey above.

Good, and this is what I said. Not using those exact words, but yes. What you say here is a reiteration, really, of what I said in red directly above.

Not exactly, you spoke of judgment, not about the 2 separate TYPES of the future resurrection, and the CONTINUED EXISTENCE of the wicked, which the false Amill theory denies about the wicked, because they hold to the false idea of the wicked being totally destroyed on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

Amill falsely claims the 'new heavens and a new earth' timing happens on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. If you don't agree with that, then you are not really an Amill believer. And even then still, if what you do... believe still does not align with Bible Scripture as written, then it still means you are in error.

Good. Exactly as I have said.

And again, NO, you didn't agree to what I said about the resurrection of the wicked dead. You only spoke of the idea of "judgment" applied to BOTH the Church and the wicked. That's Amill thinking, because the Judgment awaiting the wicked Amill believes happens on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. Yet it does not, because the Great White Throne Judgment upon the wicked cast into the future "lake of fire" will only occur AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign, as written in Revelation 20. That means the wicked ARE NOT destroyed on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

Do you have your eyes closed? <smile>

No, obviously I don't have MY spiritual eyes closed, if that's what you mean, otherwise I could not have understood the Zechariah 14:16-19 leftovers of the unsaved nations that will have come upon Jerusalem on the last day of this world being made to worship Christ AFTER His future return, and keep the Feast of Tabernacles...

Zech 14:16-18
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

But of course Amill folks deny the above Bible Scripture in favor of keeping their false traditions of men, just as they also do with many other Bible Scriptures about that future time after Christ's 2nd coming.

Ah, well, that depends on what you mean by "destroyed," Davy. If you mean it in the sense of being annihilated, then I agree; they will not be destroyed in that sense. But someone can be destroyed in a very different sense, and will be, once the final Judgment is rendered.

Nope. It does NOT depend on what the word "destroyed" means. When Zechariah 14:16 said "... every one that is left of all the nation which came against Jerusalem...," that means only those were not destroyed, and all the others were literally destroyed.

Common sense on that dictates that IF all that come against Jerusalem are not literally... destroyed, then that leftovers idea would not have been written in God's Word. So this is EASY to understand. Those who DENY that Scripture only show their rebellion against the Word of God.

No, it was not clear what you meant by "destroyed." And it's still not, really. So, just say it, Davy. What exactly do you think this destroying is? It should be easy to answer, but yet you never have.

Oh, yes what I said about that was... very clear, as I even gave proof of what I was saying about the false Amill doctrine. (remember the Crosswalk definition of the Amill theory that I posted?)

Man's false Amill theory believes ALL the wicked are literally... destroyed on the day of Christ's 2nd coming, simply because they wrongly claim the 'new heavens and a new earth' time begins right then with Christ's 2nd coming. But it does not per God's Word.

So it is impossible to try and play 'lukewarn' games with the meaning of that word "destroyed", and claim to believe the Amill theory of man.

I have done and do no such thing, Davy. Read it again, my friend. Read what I said again. I think, if you do, that you will see that what I said was, I know the misunderstanding that Christ's future return in the Revelation 19 witness is prior to the millennium of Revelation 20, which is to say that the correct understanding is different than that.

No need for you to try and backtrack on what you said. The Rev.19 Scripture of Jesus' future 2nd coming isn't about His 1,000 years reign, you and I both know that. But what it is about is the START of His future 1,000 years reign, because OTHER Bible Scripture exists to confirm that, which is what Rev.20 does. Thus Rev.19 doesn't have to mention Christ's future 1,000 years reign to prove that His 1,000 years reign will be literal. It's actually inferred in the Rev.19:1-9 are actually events that only occur at and after Christ's 2nd coming.

 

[Davy]

LOL! Your thinking on what my thinking is is what's whack, Davy. LOL!

Let me repeat what you said...
_____________________________
You Said:
"We do believe that, as a result of the final Judgment executed by Christ Jesus upon His return and final defeat of Satan and His minions, depicted in Revelation 19:11-21 ...."
_____________________________

That idea above in 'red' INFERS automatically Amill's false idea that God's new heavens and a new earth time BEGINS on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. And that means... ALL WICKED ARE LITERALLY DESTROYED, including DEATH AND HADES. Because that is what that "final defeat of Satan and his minions" means (and please correct your capitalization of "His" there after Satan, that should not be as you no doubt did that as a typo.)

So now we are right back to Amill's MAJOR CONTRADICTION about the time of the wicked vs. the time of God's future new heavens and a new earth Eternity. In that future Eternity we are told in more than one Bible Scripture, especially in Psalms, that the wicked won't be there. Amill wrongly believes that happens on the day of Christ's future return, yet Zechariah 14:16-19 easily disproves that.
_____________________________
You Said:
".... and 20:7-10 ~ yes, I know well the understanding (misunderstanding, actually) that the events of Revelation 19-11-21 precede the millennium of Revelation 20, but this is quite incorrect."
_____________________________

NO, the Rev.19:11-21 verses ARE about the day of Christ's future 2nd coming and the 'partial' destruction of the unsaved nations that will have come up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world when Jesus returns. But the Rev.19:1-9 verses cover from that last day of this world, when the Babylon Harlot is destroyed, and thereafter into Christ's future marriage supper that only happens after... His future return, (pointing to His "thousand years" reign time with His elect priests written of in Revelation 20.)

Great! LOL! I agree! Great!!!! LOL!

Not really, we do not agree.

Simply because the Rev.20 Scripture is NOT... about the 'day' of Christ's 2nd coming, but immediately AFTER... Christ's 2nd coming.

That is why Rev.20 right off the bat speaks of Satan being locked in chains in his pit prison for a "thousand years", and declares those of the "first resurrection" that reign with Jesus for a "thousand years".

Thus Rev.20 is about Christ's FUTURE 1,000 YEARS REIGN TIMING, AND THEREAFTER.

Great! So, what happens then, Davy? Maybe we're on pretty much the same page. Maybe. <chuckles> What happens then? You know, according to Scripture, as you understannd it?

Of course the Amill theory from men agrees about Christ's 2nd coming on the last day of this present world. That's not the problem with the Amill theory though.

The problem with Amill thinking is what you then asked about what happens after Christ's future return. I've said plenty about that to you already, and showed you the Bible Scripture that supports what I said, so I'm not going over all that again just to suit your fancy.

I think I clearly demonstrated here (and before, actually) your misunderstanding of my above statements.

Well here we go again, my having to remind you of what you said...
____________________
You Said:
"Either way that's very incorrect... there are second and then a third coming separated by a thousand years... not two separate second comings separated by a thousand years."

______________________
There is NO THIRD COMING by Christ Jesus written in God's Word. There is ONLY 2 comings written in God's Word. That is why I referenced the Zechariah 9:9-10 prophecy (which you said NOTHING about)...

Christ's 1st Coming:
Zech 9:9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
KJV
Christ's future 2nd Coming:
Zech 9:10
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV

Your idea of a THIRD COMING can ONLY point to the man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory! So have you come here to HIDE your belief on yet another false doctrine of men, the false pre-trib rapture? Or is it that you just have a hard time controlling what you say?

 

[Davy]

Great! So maybe you're amillennial in your eschatology! LOL! Even while you rail against amillennialism. LOL! I don't think so, though; I think you're post-millennial, which is not as wrong as pre-millennialism, but still... <smile> I did think, until now, that you were pre-millennial (which is not necessarily dispensational or "pre-trib"), though. <smile> Are you post-mill? And if so, why?

Now you are being crazy and funny!

You claim a THIRD COMING by Christ, and I reference the Zech.9:9-10 Scripture which only confirms TWO COMINGS by Christ, and you think that means I agree with man's false Amill theories? Your thinking is WHACK on that idea too!

Just how far back in history do you believe Christ's FIRST COMING was? That is what I was pointing to with my mention of that happening over 2,000 years ago (4 B.C. being Christ's birthday according the British Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger).

Just so other brethren here that might read this post, and are not confused as you are:

a. 1st Coming by Jesus Christ - 2,029 years ago.

b. 2nd Coming by Jesus Christ - still sometime future on the last day of this present world, and after the future "great tribulation".

c. Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 - starts on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

d. Immediately after Christ's future "thousand years" reign - all the unsaved judged in final at God's Great White Throne Judgment, the wicked unsaved cast into the future "lake of fire", along with Satan and hell, and death.

e. God's Eternity - a new heavens and a new earth begins.

Ah, see, now what you have in parentheses is... Well, that His Kingdom is not of this world is not in reference to time. <smile> Think about the words, there. His Kingdom is not of this world.

What Jesus said per John 18:36 about His Kingdom NOT being of this world (Greek kosmos, this present world time) is EASY to understand. He meant that LITERALLY.

And you instead try to turn that into some religious philosophy of man in attempt to change it to actually mean His Kingdom is of this present time on earth? That just shows how confused you are.

How many Bible Scripture references do you think exists in God's Word that declares Christ's future reign will be LITERALLY HERE ON EARTH?

So WHERE, tell me, is LORD JESUS REIGNING IN HIS KINGDOM HERE ON EARTH TODAY?? Is He in New York at the U.N., or in the nation of Israel? In Brussels Belgium maybe?? Tell me, I want to know!

Well, I'm not sure, but I'm sure not... <smile>

Well, as a believer on Jesus Christ you SHOULD be sure of what He said there in John 18:36 that His Kingdom is NOT of this present world time.

His Kingdom that is... here today in this world is of The SPIRIT through His many-membered body, His Church. And that cannot be limited to any geographical location, nor building structure here on earth. It is of The Spirit, The Temple of The Spirit of which those in Christ are to be "lively stones" making up a part of it, with the Apostles and prophets as foundation stones, and Lord Jesus Christ as its Chief Corner Stone (Eph2).

Not according to Jesus... <smile> Jesus did in fact say, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand..." (Matthew 3:2, 4:8, 4:17, 10:7, 12:28, and Mark 1:15). So, the kingdom of God is not yet here in its fullness, but it is very much here now... and growing. <smile> I'll ask you again, though you already answered well, Who is your King, Davy? Right now? <smile> Who is your King right now?

Who is my King? You already asked me that before, and I TOLD YOU, JESUS CHRIST IS MY KING AND SAVIOR.

Do you really... think that just because I HEED what Lord Jesus said about this world NOT being His Kingdom today, that means I don't recognize Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, as MY KING and LORD? What nut are you listening to with TRYING to make that STUPID COMPARISON??

Nope! Christ's literal PHYSICAL KINGDOM is still NOT manifest here on earth yet today, because again, like He said His Kingdom is NOT... of this world today, OTHERWISE... what else did He say? He also said with that that if... His Kingdom was of THIS present world, then His servants would fight to prevent Him from being delivered up to be crucified (John 18:36).

Thus you will notice with all those Scripture references you gave of that, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand...", that Lord Jesus did NOT attach a TIME REFERENCE to it! The "at hand" idea some TRY to create wild time pointers with, but those theories are just WHACK.

So NO, Christ's Kingdom is NOT HERE ON EARTH yet today. And I explained already just what portion of His Kingdom is here, with His Church. But you instead have been fed a line of bull by Satan's host that Christ's Kingdom is manifest already, and is "growing", with the FALSE IDEA that EVERYONE on earth will eventually BELIEVE on Jesus Christ, when NO SUCH IDEA IS WRITTEN ANYWHERE IN GOD'S WORD FOR THIS PRESENT WORLD TIME!

You are simply deluded by listening and heeding MEN'S DOCTRINES instead of The Word of God as written.

 

[PinSeeker]

That response certainly is a bunch of coded malarkey... I knew you couldn't back up your false claim of having responded to all my Scripture references and quotes... More 'coded' malarkey above

No, the record is clear. I guess you're just too lazy to review it. That's okay; t is what it is. That's somehow "coded"...? LOL! Dude. Come on. So yeah, absolutely no substance to anything you have said so far...

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

...you spoke of judgment...

Well yes, among other things...

...not about the 2 separate TYPES of the future resurrection...

Hmmm... Now, here, by "types of the future resurrection," are you referring to the first and second resurrection of Revelation 20? Or are you talking about all being resurrected either to eternal life or to judgment, as Jesus says in John 5:28-29, and illustrates in Matthew 25:31-46? I mean, both are true, but I think you're speaking of the latter, and yes, I have spoken about that, which means you're at least to some extent disproving your own accusation of me not addressing the Scriptures you have addressed (thanks for that). <smile>

, and the CONTINUED EXISTENCE of the wicked, which the false Amill theory denies about the wicked...

Ohhhh, stop there. Amillennialists do not deny, but rather affirm without doubt the continued existence of the wicked. They're existence does not continue in the New Heaven and New Earth, but rather... elsewhere. But they do continue to exist. So again, at least some of your ideas about amillennialism are just wrong, this being a case in point.

...because they hold to the false idea of the wicked being totally destroyed on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

And here again, Davy ~ as I said before, which, again, is yet another instance of me addressing things you have addressed, and I'll even do so again here... <smile> ~ it depends on what you mean by "totally destroyed." But again, it seems we agree about this... yes, even the wicked continue to exist.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Amill falsely claims the 'new heavens and a new earth' timing happens on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

Interesting. So, how much time do you think will elapse between Christ's second coming and the ushering in of the New Heaven and New Earth? And why?

If you don't agree with that, then you are not really an Amill believer.

I do. I am asking you why you think it is false. I think I know, but I'm not going to put words into your mouth. I would like to hear your response to why you think there is any kind of real time separation between Christ's second coming and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth. And, as I said above, how much time. <smile>

And again, NO, you didn't agree to what I said about the resurrection of the wicked dead. You only spoke of the idea of "judgment" applied to BOTH the Church and the wicked. That's Amill thinking, because the Judgment awaiting the wicked Amill believes happens on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. Yet it does not, because the Great White Throne Judgment upon the wicked cast into the future "lake of fire" will only occur AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign, as written in Revelation 20. That means the wicked ARE NOT destroyed on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

I did in fact agree with your statement that "Zechariah 9:9-10 reveals only TWO comings by Lord Jesus Christ. There is NO THIRD coming," and "Christ's 1st coming, so far, is separated by over 2,000 years from His future 2nd coming on the last day of this world." I have said this same thing many, many times, not just to you but to other posters. Amillennialists hold to this.

However... <smile> I don't agree with your post-millennial thinking. <smile> It does the same thing as pre-millennial thinking in that it posits that the millennium itself is still future only... has not yet begun... and that's contrary to Revelation 20. If you believe that the final Judgment occurs a thousand years after Christ returns, then yes, I... rather strenuously <smile>... disagree with that, because Scripture ~ specifically Revelation 20, the only place in all of Scripture that mentions a millennium ~ does not support that in any way. The problem, then, seems to be because you are conflating the two resurrections seen in Revelation 20, the first ~ which occurs within the millennium, which we are still in the midst of now ~ and the second, which occurs after the millennium is ended and when Christ returns... as does the final Judgment, the sending away of the wicked, and the ushering in of the New Heaven and New Earth. Again, at the time of Christ's return and the ensuing Judgment, the millennium has ended; the ending of the millennium is what prompts ~ in order ~ Christ's return, the final defeat of Satan, the final Judgment, and the ushering in of the New Heaven and New Earth.

No, obviously I don't have MY spiritual eyes closed...

That's not even what I said or insinuated. All I said was, if you think that I didn't say what you said I didn't say (though I did, and more than once), then, maybe you have your eyes closed... LOL! No reference to "spiritual eyes" there... Goodness gracious.

It does NOT depend on what the word "destroyed" means.

That's not what I said, Davy. Dude, your reading comprehension "skills"... I said it depends on what you mean by destroyed," which is to say, if one says something is destroyed, that can be understood in two very different ways, namely either in the sense of total annihilation or in the sense of total ruination. And I asked you specifically how you understand that destroying several posts ago, basically in those exact words, and you have never really answered. However, I do understand ~ I think ~ that you understand this destroying in the latter sense (ruination) rather than the former (annihilation). If that's true, then there you go, I answered it for you on your behalf. But yes, to what we were talking about there, it does depend on what one thinks this destroying is, what it means.

Common sense on that dictates that IF all that come against Jerusalem are not literally... destroyed, then that leftovers idea would not have been written in God's Word. So this is EASY to understand.

Okay, good, so complete ruination, right? Meaning they still exist, and will exist beyond the final Judgment, even in eternity to come ~ so like believers in that respect (continued existence) ~ but away from the New Heaven and New Earth, not having eternal life, but rather eternal death, the second death of Revelation 20, which is to be permanently and solely under God's judgment, without any measure whatsoever of His grace, and not in the presence of the One Who is life (John 11:25, 14:6), Jesus.

Those who DENY that Scripture only show their rebellion against the Word of God.

Yeah whatever, man... LOL!

Oh, yes what I said about that was... very clear, as I even gave proof of what I was saying about the false Amill doctrine. (remember the Crosswalk definition of the Amill theory that I posted?) Man's false Amill theory believes ALL the wicked are literally... destroyed on the day of Christ's 2nd coming...

This is NOT what amillennialism holds, Davy. Crosswalk... <chuckles> ...is apparently saying ~ and you are following suit, apparently ~ that amillennialists believe in annihilationism, and that is absolutely not the case. All the wicked are, well, literally destroyed, yes, but in the sense of total ruination, not annihilation, or being wiped from existence. So, the very REASON you think "Amill" to BE false IS false. LOL!

...simply because they wrongly claim the 'new heavens and a new earth' time begins right then with Christ's 2nd coming. But it does not per God's Word.

There is no significant elapsing of time between Christ's return and the New Heaven and New Earth, much less a thousand years, as post-millennialists hold. Christ's return is after the close of the millennium... which is the period in which God saves "all of Israel," as Paul says it in Romans 11:26. At that time, and in short order:

• Jesus will defeat Satan for good and the second resurrection (many resurrected to eternal life, the rest resurrected to judgment) will occur
• the final Judgment of all (with believers on Jesus's right and unbelievers on His left... Matthew 25:31-46
• then the subsequent sending away of unbelievers into eternal punishment
• finally the ushering in of the New Heaven and New Earth.

Believing there to be a thousand years between Christ's return and the final Judgment is the falsity.

So it is impossible to try and play 'lukewarn' games with the meaning of that word "destroyed"

No one is playing any games, Davy, but some of us ~ you ~ are, for some reason, avoiding addressing the very valid question.

...and claim to believe the Amill theory of man

Which you apparently don't even understand, but still rail against it. Maybe I've cleared up some misconceptions... <smile> But hey, just on the "theory of man" meme, post-millennialism is absolutely the same in that respect. <smile>

No need for you to try and backtrack on what you said.

No backtracking necessary. None whatsoever. <smile>

The Rev.19 Scripture of Jesus' future 2nd coming isn't about His 1,000 years reign, you and I both know that.

Right.

But what it is about is the START of His future 1,000 years reign...

Nope. Again, the working out of the two is different, but pre-millennialism and post-millennialism are alike in that they are both futurist with regard to God's millennium. No, God's millennium is going on now. In the words of Revelation 20:4, specifically, believers are coming to life and reigning with Christ over this millennial year period. We are in the midst of God's millennium now, this "thousand years"... and maybe very close even from our perspective to its conclusion. His millennial reign is now, and His eternal reign... coming. Again, I ask you, Davy, Who is your King? Right now. Who is your King?

...OTHER Bible Scripture exists to confirm that, which is what Rev.20 does.

Well, they confirm what I said directly above (and many times before)... <smile> But, you know, as I have also said, just that you and I disagree on this is not terribly important, really.

Thus Rev.19 doesn't have to mention Christ's future 1,000 years reign to prove that His 1,000 years reign will be literal. It's actually inferred in the Rev.19:1-9 are actually events that only occur at and after Christ's 2nd coming.

I agree with this. As does amillennialism in general. <smile> Again, how you understand the amillennial position seems to be very... ill-informed... <smile> You have many assumptions about it that are just... well, wrong. But if you want to continue to be stubborn about that, then, you know, okay, man, okay. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

...Amill's false idea that God's new heavens and a new earth time BEGINS on the day of Christ's 2nd coming...

There is no significant elapsing of time between Jesus's second coming and the New Heaven and New Earth... much less a thousand years, as post-millennialists hold.

. And that means... ALL WICKED ARE LITERALLY DESTROYED, including DEATH AND HADES. Because that is what that "final defeat of Satan and his minions" means...

Well, literally destoyed in the sense of ruination, not annihilation, which we agree on. No need to keep harping on this, right? <smile>

(and please correct your capitalization of "His" there after Satan, that should not be as you no doubt did that as a typo.)

Yeah, I mis-capitalized that. I repent in dust and ashes. <smile>

So now we are right back to Amill's MAJOR CONTRADICTION about the time of the wicked vs. the time of God's future new heavens and a new earth Eternity.

This is at least one major disagreement between us, yes, that the millennium is not future only... specifically not placed between Christ's second coming (return) and the final Judgment... yes. This is... well, why post-millennialism is called post-millennialism and why amillennialism ~ which I would say is better labeled as nunc-millennialism; do you know what that 'nunc' prefix means? <smile> ~ is labeled amillennialism ~ or more properly nunc-millennialism. If you continue to hold to post-millennialism, then yes, we will never agree regarding that.

In that future Eternity we are told in more than one Bible Scripture, especially in Psalms, that the wicked won't be there. Amill wrongly believes that happens on the day of Christ's future return, yet Zechariah 14:16-19 easily disproves that...

In... your opinion. And it's absolutely okay with me to say that what I says regarding this is... my opinion. Yeah, I mean, that should be okay. It is, whether you are okay with it or not. <smile> It's going to be what it's going to be, regardless of what you or I say, regardless who's right concerning the proper placement of the millennium. Whichever one of us is wrong about this is not "in rebellion against God" or "denying Scripture," or anything like that.

_____________________________
You Said:
".... and 20:7-10 ~ yes, I know well the understanding (misunderstanding, actually) that the events of Revelation 19-11-21 precede the millennium of Revelation 20, but this is quite incorrect."
_____________________________

NO, the Rev.19:11-21 verses ARE about the day of Christ's future 2nd coming and the 'partial' destruction of the unsaved nations that will have come up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world when Jesus returns.

Agree... Read what I said there again, Davy (as I said in my previous post). What I said here is that IT IS A MISUNDERSTANDING that the events of Revelation 19:11-21 precede the millennium of Revelation 20. That is what pre-millennialists hold, not a- or nunc-millennialists.

But the Rev.19:1-9 verses cover from that last day of this world, when the Babylon Harlot is destroyed, and thereafter into Christ's future marriage supper that only happens after... His future return, (pointing to His "thousand years" reign time with His elect priests written of in Revelation 20.)

I... partially agree with this. I disagree ~ strongly ~ that Revelation 19:1-9 "cover from that last day of this world," and would rather say the following:

• vv.1-4 covers up to "that last day of this world"
• vv.5-8 is synonymous ~ in my opinion ~ with what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:16... this is the "cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God," which immediately precedes Christ's second coming
• vv.9-10 is the angel ~ I think the same angel mentioned in either Revelation 18:1 or Revelation 18:21... maybe both, but I lean more toward the one in verse 21 ~ conversing with John concerning this particular vision and contrasting "those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb" with those of "Babylon the great city... thrown down with violence and... found no more,"

Not really, we do not agree.

Okay. Don't really care, to tell you the truth. <smile> It's okay. <smile>

Simply because the Rev.20 Scripture is NOT... about the 'day' of Christ's 2nd coming, but immediately AFTER... Christ's 2nd coming.

Revelation 20:1-6 is about the period leading up to Christ's second coming, which we are in the midst of now. I submit to you, Davy, that we should see Chris's second coming in Revelation 20:9b... "fire came down from heaven and consumed them."

That is why Rev.20 right off the bat speaks of Satan being locked in chains in his pit prison for a "thousand years", and declares those of the "first resurrection" that reign with Jesus for a "thousand years"...

...that you, as a post-millennialist ~ like pre-millennialists in this respect ~ believe this is still yet future, but that's just not the case, Davy. I suggest you recall what Jesus said in Matthew 12, specifically verse 29... "how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." He's speaking of Himself, there, of course, saying He has "entered the strong man's (Satan's) house" and is "plundering the strong man's" (Satan's) "goods," and this is because He has "bound the strong man" (Satan), which corresponds intensely with Revelation 20:1-3, that Jesus is the "Angel..." Who came "...down from heaven, holding in His hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain..." Who "seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended."

Thus Rev.20 is about Christ's FUTURE 1,000 YEARS REIGN TIMING, AND THEREAFTER.

I agree with everything here except with regard to His millennial reign, that it is yet future only.

The problem with Amill thinking is what you then asked about what happens after Christ's future return.

Okay, well, I say this is the principle problem with post-millennial thinking. Yeah, I mean, that's the irresolvable issue between post-millennialists like you and nunc-millennialists like me. But really, it's okay. <smile>

I've said plenty about that to you already,

Yes. Yes you have. I agree. More than plenty, actually. <smile>

and showed you the Bible Scripture that supports what I said...

Well, it supports what I said. But, we disagree. It's okay, Davy. Really, it's okay. <smile>

, so I'm not going over all that again just to suit your fancy.

Well, it wouldn't really suit my fancy. LOL!

Well here we go again, my having to remind you of what you said...

Oh boy, so we're not finished... LOL!!!

____________________
You Said:
"Either way that's very incorrect... there are second and then a third coming separated by a thousand years... not two separate second comings separated by a thousand years."

______________________
There is NO THIRD COMING by Christ Jesus written in God's Word. There is ONLY 2 comings written in God's Word. That is why I referenced the Zechariah 9:9-10 prophecy (which you said NOTHING about)...

You're cutting out a key part of what I actually said, Davy. I was very clear that the idea that "there are a second and then a third coming" is a terrible misunderstanding of Scripture. And now I have said this several times. Is this inadvertent, or are you now lying?

Your idea of a THIRD COMING...

Is not my idea at all.

can ONLY point to the man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory!

I agree with this. As I have said. Many times now.

So ...

So nothing. Dismissed. Not to say "you are dismissed," but only that that accusation placed on me by you is summarily dismissed as false.

have you come here to HIDE your belief on yet another false doctrine of men, the false pre-trib rapture?

No. We are in agreement that any idea of a "pre-trib rapture" is false. Are we clear on that? I mean maybe the 47th time is a charm. God, I hope so... <smile>

Or is it that you just have a hard time controlling what you say?

<eye roll>

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[PinSeeker]

Now you are being crazy and funny!

LOL! Well, you're kind of driving me crazy, so to speak, and in some instances, all I can do is laugh. So yeah... LOL!

You claim a THIRD COMING by Christ...

Nope... Absolutely not...

...you think that means I agree with man's false Amill theories?

You agree with nunc-millennialists that there is not a third coming of Christ. Goodness gracious.

Your thinking is WHACK on that idea too!

No, again, your thinking about my thinking is not my thinking at all, thus that (your thinking about my thinking) is what is "whack." Which is what I said previously.

Just how far back in history do you believe Christ's FIRST COMING was?

Same as you. A little over 2000 years ~ about 2060 or so ~ right? Yeah.

a. 1st Coming by Jesus Christ - 2,029 years ago.

Check. Agree. I have never said anything differently.

b. 2nd Coming by Jesus Christ - still sometime future on the last day of this present world, and after the future "great tribulation".

Check. Agree. I have never said anything differently.

c. Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 - starts on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

No. The "thousand years"... God's millennium... will have ended then, and this is what prompts Christ's second coming. I have never said anything differently. And this is the principle difference between post-millennialism (which, in your own terms, is a "theory of man") and amillennialism, or nunc-millennialism (which I don't have any problem with you calling a "theory of man").

d. Immediately after Christ's future "thousand years" reign - all the unsaved judged in final at God's Great White Throne Judgment, the wicked unsaved cast into the future "lake of fire", along with Satan and hell, and death.

Check. Agree. I have never said anything differently.

e. God's Eternity - a new heavens and a new earth begins.

Check. Agree. I have never said anything differently.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

What Jesus said per John 18:36 about His Kingdom NOT being of this world (Greek kosmos, this present world time) is EASY to understand. He meant that LITERALLY.

Yes, but not with regard to time, but rather who is... actually seems to be... in control. Now, if you want to say, with regard to time, what is eternal and of God rather than temporal and fallen... which is to say of the present age rather than the age to come (eternity), THEN I would agree.

And you instead try to turn that into some religious philosophy of man in attempt to change it to actually mean His Kingdom is of this present time on earth?

It is, but not yet in its fullness. Jesus said it... I'll repeat the references: Matthew 3:2, 4:8, 4:17, 10:7, 12:28, and Mark 1:15. The kingdom is at hand, and this has been the case since He said it over 2000 years ago...

That just shows how confused you are.

<eye roll>

How many Bible Scripture references do you think exists in God's Word that declares Christ's future reign will be LITERALLY HERE ON EARTH?

His eternal reign certainly will be. Who is your King, Davy? Right now. Who is your King?

So WHERE, tell me, is LORD JESUS REIGNING IN HIS KINGDOM HERE ON EARTH TODAY??

Hmmmmm... I've been very clear, several times, in saying that He is not yet reigning on earth. But this does not mean that He is not reigning. His millennial reign is now, from/in heaven. Seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, as, well, at least we in the church I attend, say corporately every Sunday. Who is your King, Davy?

Is He in New York at the U.N., or in the nation of Israel? In Brussels Belgium maybe?? Tell me, I want to know!

LOL! Who is your King, Davy?

Well, as a believer on Jesus Christ you SHOULD be sure of what He said there in John 18:36 that His Kingdom is NOT of this present world time.

That's... not what He said. He said His Kingdom is not of this world. As I said. Which, I guess, you ignored. But again, He also said the kingdom is ~ not "will be" ~ at hand, in Matthew 3:2, 4:8, 4:17, 10:7, 12:28, and Mark 1:15. So what He said in John 18:36, of course, does not contradict what He said in those instances. So what's the resolution, Davy? Because there is one. Those two statements, "the Kingdom is at hand" and "My Kingdom is not of this world," are not contradictory, but have a perfectly understandable and true resolution, as you will agree, I'm sure, so what do you think that resolution is? <smile>

His Kingdom that is... here today in this world is of The SPIRIT through His many-membered body, His Church.

YES!!!!! But don't stop there, Davy! If His Kingdom is here today, then... well, can a Kingdom exist without a King? No... Is His Church the King, and is His Church reigning as King? Well, um.... sort of... we are in Christ, so in that respect, yes.

And that cannot be limited to any geographical location, nor building structure here on earth. It is of The Spirit, The Temple of The Spirit of which those in Christ are to be "lively stones" making up a part of it, with the Apostles and prophets as foundation stones, and Lord Jesus Christ as its Chief Corner Stone (Eph2).

YES!!!!!!

Who is my King? You already asked me that before, and I TOLD YOU, JESUS CHRIST IS MY KING AND SAVIOR.

Right, but you're denying He's reigning, which... is kind of a problem... <smile>

Do you really... think that just because I HEED what Lord Jesus said about this world NOT being His Kingdom today...

Again, that's not quite what Jesus said... His Kingdom, right now, is in the world, but not of it, which is kind of what we say about us as Christians, right, Davy? I mean, we are called, as Christians, to be in the world but not of it. Think about that.

, that means I don't recognize Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, as MY KING and LORD?

No, I was just trying to get you to say that, Davy. And actually believe it, believe it is a present reality. I mean, from what you're saying, you do and you don't at the same time, which is... whack. <smile>

What nut are you listening to with TRYING to make that STUPID COMPARISON??

Stating the absurd to get you to recognize what is. In other words, of course you would confess Christ as your King; all of us who are in Christ would. This is often necessary. <smile> That might be a good exercise for you, to say, "Christ is my King right now!' over and over and over again until it really sinks in... <smile>

Christ's literal PHYSICAL KINGDOM is still NOT manifest here on earth yet today...

Not fully yet, no. I've said this over and over again. It is coming to be, being built, as Paul says at the end of Ephesians 2 ~ which you and I have both pointed out ~ but not yet fully manifest, right. We agree on this... Or should, anyway.

...again, like He said His Kingdom is NOT... of this world today...

Right, but that does not mean that it is not yet here in this world at all.

... what else did He say? He also said with that that if... His Kingdom was of THIS present world, then His servants would fight to prevent Him from being delivered up to be crucified (John 18:36).

Hmmmm, not "present," just "If My kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting..." But still, He's not saying there that His kingdom is not in this world, either then or now.

Thus you will notice with all those Scripture references you gave of that, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand...", that Lord Jesus did NOT attach a TIME REFERENCE to it! The "at hand" idea some TRY to create wild time pointers with, but those theories are just WHACK.

"At hand," Davy, means here now, within reach now, meaning not some future reality that anyone has to wait for. That's no "theory," nor is it "whack." It is what it is.

So NO, Christ's Kingdom is NOT HERE ON EARTH yet today.

Not in its fullness, but it is. "Get behind me, Satan."

And I explained already just what portion of His Kingdom is here, with His Church.

Which I agreed with. Which is this self-contradictory thing in you, Davy. Which is it? Is His Kingdom here or not? The correct answer to that is actually "Yes"... <smile>

But you instead have been fed a line of bull by Satan's host that Christ's Kingdom is manifest already, and is "growing"...

In your... "humble" <chuckle>... opinion. Yeah, cool... But you quoted ~ we both have, actually ) Paul in Ephesians 2:19-22 before, so you believe this "line of bull" (which is not a line of bull at all, of course), too...

...with the FALSE IDEA that EVERYONE on earth will eventually BELIEVE on Jesus Christ, when NO SUCH IDEA IS WRITTEN ANYWHERE IN GOD'S WORD FOR THIS PRESENT WORLD TIME!

I've never said or insinuated such a thing. Although, when unbelievers are sent away after the final Judgment, then, yes, everyone on earth ~ in the New Heaven and New Earth ~ will... well, not only believe, but see. Our faith will be sight, as the great hymn ~ "It Is Well With My Soul" ~ goes...

You are simply deluded by listening and heeding MEN'S DOCTRINES instead of The Word of God as written.

LOL!! <eye roll> How long, O Lord? How long? <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not exactly, you spoke of judgment, not about the 2 separate TYPES of the future resurrection, and the CONTINUED EXISTENCE of the wicked, which the false Amill theory denies about the wicked, because they hold to the false idea of the wicked being totally destroyed on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

That's exactly what is indicated in this passage, but go ahead and keep denying what is taught in this passage if you insist:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

And again, NO, you didn't agree to what I said about the resurrection of the wicked dead. You only spoke of the idea of "judgment" applied to BOTH the Church and the wicked. That's Amill thinking, because the Judgment awaiting the wicked Amill believes happens on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

The following makes it very clear that the wicked will be judged when Christ's 2nd coming occurs, but go ahead and deny it if you insist on believing falsehood.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Why do you deny what Jesus so clearly taught, which is that the wicked, represented here by goats, will be cast "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" at His second coming?

No, obviously I don't have MY spiritual eyes closed, if that's what you mean, otherwise I could not have understood the Zechariah 14:16-19 leftovers of the unsaved nations that will have come upon Jerusalem on the last day of this world being made to worship Christ AFTER His future return, and keep the Feast of Tabernacles...

Zech 14:16-18
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

But of course Amill folks deny the above Bible Scripture in favor of keeping their false traditions of men, just as they also do with many other Bible Scriptures about that future time after Christ's 2nd coming.

Do you think Peter and Jesus understood the meaning of Zechariah 14:16-18? I'm sure they did. Yet, they did not teach what you teach about what will happen when Jesus returns. Maybe you should start listening to them instead of relying on yourself only for understanding? I think so.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Furthermore, just the fact that YOU RECOGNIZE Christ's future separation of His sheep from the goats of Matt.25, means those 'goats' are NOT DESTROYED on the day of His future return; but their destruction is one of the false doctrines that Amill theory proposes.

Further You Said the following, in response to my point that Amill believes all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's return...

___________________________
You Said:
"Destroyed... Well, it's unclear what you mean by "destroyed," the nature of this destroying. But maybe that's immaterial... We do believe that, as a result of the final Judgment executed by Christ Jesus upon His return and final defeat of Satan and His minions, depicted in Revelation 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 ~ yes, I know well the understanding (misunderstanding, actually) that the events of Revelation 19-11-21 precede the millennium of Revelation 20, but this is quite incorrect."
__________________________

It is very... clear that you knew what I meant, because that destruction of the wicked on the day of Christ's future return is part of the Amill theory. And that certainly is NOT "immaterial", which your use of that word betrays your faith in that false Amill doctrine you hold to.

What is most amazing in your above reply, is how you ADMIT Christ's future return in the Rev.19 witness is PRIOR to the millennium of Rev.20!

He did no such thing. You have a serious reading comprehension problem. He pointed out that statement was incorrect immediately after that by saying "but this is quite incorrect". All he was doing there was showing how premils understand Revelation 19 and 20 and then saying that their understanding is incorrect. I can easily discern that's what he meant, but you couldn't because your reading comprehension skills are quite lacking, as is your ability to discern the true meaning of Revelation 20.

and then you claim that is incorrect?? Your thinking on that is whack. Maybe God should consult you to see if you will let Him create a legal amendment done to those Scriptures for you.

You should ask God to help you with your reading comprehension problem.

 

[Davy]

That's exactly what is indicated in this passage, but go ahead and keep denying what is taught in this passage if you insist:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I am not denying what Peter said. I am denying your wrong interpretation of that 2 Peter 3:10 Scripture.

Why do you skirt the Zechariah 14 and Acts 1 Scripture which reveals Christ's future return to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem? If Peter meant the earth will be completely destroyed, like turned into some asteroid belt, then Christ's feet would not have any place to touch down upon like the Zechariah 14 Scripture says about His future return!

Zech 14:4-5
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV

The following makes it very clear that the wicked will be judged when Christ's 2nd coming occurs, but go ahead and deny it if you insist on believing falsehood.

There is more than one judgment. The separation of Christ's sheep from the goats is one judgment that happens on the day of Christ's coming when He sits on His inherited earthly throne from David. This judgment will set apart the two groups, with the goats put outside the gates of the beloved city per Rev.22:14-15 while only those in Christ will be allowed inside the gates of the beloved city and partake of the Tree of Life. That place of separation Jesus called the "outer darkness".

And then there is the FINAL GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT after Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect. That final judgment will determine who all goes into the "lake of fire" as the "second death". Only at the "second death" is the abode of hell and the concept of death destroyed. That does NOT happen on the day of Christ's future return, but after His "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20.

 

[Davy]

He did no such thing. You have a serious reading comprehension problem. He pointed out that statement was incorrect immediately after that by saying "but this is quite incorrect". All he was doing there was showing how premils understand Revelation 19 and 20 and then saying that their understanding is incorrect. I can easily discern that's what he meant, but you couldn't because your reading comprehension skills are quite lacking, as is your ability to discern the true meaning of Revelation 20.


You should ask God to help you with your reading comprehension problem.

He should learn how to properly word his thoughts then, and not say things at the 'start' of his paragraph like ...

"We do believe that, as a result of the final Judgment executed by Christ Jesus upon His return and final defeat of Satan and His minions, depicted in Revelation 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 ...."

That is saying "We do believe that..." what that Rev.19 and 20 Scripture says as written. What then is written in those Rev.19 and Rev.20 Scriptures? Rev.19 is about the day of Christ's future return, and Rev.20 is about AFTER Christ has returned and begins His "thousand years" reign with His elect.


And Brethren in Christ who actually DO... listen to Christ in His Word:

The fact that Lord Jesus will begin a "thousand years" reign with His elect on the day of His future return is easy... to grasp per the Rev.20 Scripture. The order of events in Rev.20 are easy to KNOW that those events are set for after Jesus has returned, and is reigning over the STILL EXISTING WICKED, even over Satan who is not destroyed yet then.

Rev 20:1-9
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The deceived today actually think Satan is already 'bound'. Yet Apostle Peter warned in 1 Peter 5:8 that Satan roams like lion seeking whom he may devour, which means still in THIS PRESENT WORLD TIME. So the above is definitely not a destruction of Satan event! It is a temporary lockup of Satan on the day when Jesus returns, because ONLY then, when Jesus returns and Satan is then 'bound', will 1 Peter 5:8 no longer apply. It's common sense, easy.

Furthermore, note that above phrase in 'red'. Has that already happened today, Satan no longer deceiving the nations today? NO, that has not yet happened. So that is yet another marker to show us that the UNSAVED nations and WICKED and Satan, will still exist after the day of Christ's future return.

All that certainly messes with man's false Amill theory which wrongly tries to claim God's new heavens and a new earth Eternity begins on the day of Christ's return. Satan has to be destroyed, along with all the wicked, and the abode of hell, and the concept of death, before God's NHNE Eternity will start.


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

That in 'red' is a DIRECT REFERENCE to the saints who go through the "great tribulation" that will happen at the very end of this world just prior to Christ's future return. That is when that worship of the beast, or his image, or his mark, is to manifest. That time is not here yet today, but is for the end of this world. It will be Christ's 2nd coming to gather His saints and they all go to Jerusalem upon the Mount of Olives that will end that "great tribulation".

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those who Jesus gathers which reign with Him are the "first resurrection". These "dead" represent the spiritually dead without Christ, and the deceived souls that Jesus and His elect will reign over for that "thousand years." The "resurrection of damnation", the raised wicked dead, which Jesus mentioned that happens on the day of His coming are included in these "dead" souls (See John 5:28-29). They will stand in judgment throughout that "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is first mention of the "second death". That is about the future death of one's spirit/soul, not another flesh body death. Just because that comparison between these "dead" being still subject to that future "second death" and still existing during Christ's future reign over them, and with His faithful saints that overcame the "great tribulation", that is plenty enough to KNOW these events will be LITERAL, and not some mumbo-jumbo spiritual philosophy of Satan's little workers here on earth today.


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV

That is a reference to the future Jerusalem as that "camp of the saints", on earth. It is not manifest yet, and won't be until Jesus returns with His Church to reign from right there in that future Jerusalem. That is also the area which Satan in final, once he is loosed AFTER that "thousand years", will lead those unsaved of the "nations" against, and God will THEN destroy them and Satan. But that won't destroy all... the wicked just yet, because God's GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT happens right after that, with more wicked being cast into the future "lake of fire", which is the "second death".

 

[PinSeeker]

Rev.19 is about the day of Christ's future return, and Rev.20 is about AFTER Christ has returned and begins His "thousand years" reign with His elect.

What I have said, Davy, very clearly, several times, is that the events of Revelation 19:11-21 are the same events — described differently, but the same events — described in Revelation 20:7-10. You obviously don’t have any trouble seeing Christ’s return ther in Revelation 19, but you should see it also in Revelation 20:7-10, specifically in the latter half of verse 9… “…fire came down from heaven and consumed them.” This is not a second second return (or a third coming) of Jesus, but the one and only return of Jesus. Revelation 20, beginning with verse 1, Davy, is a retelling of history from Jesus’s first coming almost 2100 years ago up through his return and the final defeat of Satan, and this time culminating with the final Judgment and then the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth.

The fact that Lord Jesus will begin a "thousand years" reign with His elect on the day of His future return …

…is not a fact at all; His “thousand year” millennial reign, which is from heaven — He is right now seated at the right hand of the Father — will have ended at His return, and, after the final Judgement, depicted in Revelation 20:11-15, His eternal reign begins… and of course will have no end.

The deceived today actually think Satan is already 'bound'.

He is. Jesus said so in Matthew 12:29 — speaking of Himself (and Satan as the “strong man”) says, “…how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.” Mark also documents this scene (3:27): “But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.” Satan is bound in that he cannot deceive the nations, as Revelation 20:2-3 says.

Yet Apostle Peter warned in 1 Peter 5:8 that Satan roams like lion seeking whom he may devour, which means still in THIS PRESENT WORLD TIME.

Certainly. His binding is not such that he cannot exert influence at all, but he cannot prevent the spread of the Gospel to nations beyond Israel as he once could (before Jesus came.) this is what he is totally bound/sealed from.

Continued…

 

[PinSeeker]

…the "great tribulation" that will happen at the very end of this world just prior to Christ's future return.

There will certainly be a “great tribulation” near the end of the “thousand years,” the (current) millennium, this current time of tribulation…. And it will be, as Jesus said, “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be” (Matthew 24:21)…. <shudder>

That time is not here yet today, but is for the end of this world. It will be Christ's 2nd coming…

Right, and that time may be very near, even by human standards.

Those who Jesus gathers which reign with Him are the "first resurrection".

Well… yes… The first resurrection is what Paul describes in Ephesians 2. In our own time, we are born again of the Spirit and raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly places. And this is happening, new believer by new believer, over the course of God’s millennium… this is our sharing in the first resurrection. We are blessed in this way, and in Christ — by the Spirit — we are reigning with Him now, in the Spirit, for the balance of the millennium.

The "resurrection of damnation", the raised wicked dead, which Jesus mentioned that happens on the day of His coming are included in these "dead" souls (See John 5:28-29). They will stand in judgment throughout that "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect.

Well, they “will not stand in the judgement“ (Psalm 1)… they “will not stand in the congregation of the righteous.” They will be on the wrong side of the final Judgment and will… depart into this place of outer darkness and then be under — immersed in — God’s judgment — in this “lake of fire” — for eternity, Davy. This is indeed the “second death”… <shudder>

.…these events will be LITERAL…

They certainly will be. But not in such a wooden, literalistic sense.

…reference to the future Jerusalem as that "camp of the saints", on earth. It is not manifest yet…

Davy, in the “beloved city” and the “camp of the saints,” you should see US… all believers; WE are the beloved city of Revelation 20, THE city of God, which is in contrast to Babylon, the worldly city, which is all unbelievers…

Goodness gracious. You know I don’t mean this in an insulting way, but it will come out that way, so I apologize in advance. But what you have, Davy, is… ugh… a very small-minded take on Scripture. I’m not saying you’re small-minded; I’m sure you’re highly intelligent. But your eschatology is… sorry… very small-minded.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Well… yes… The first resurrection is what Paul describes in Ephesians 2. In our own time, we are born again of the Spirit and raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly places. And this is happening, new believer by new believer, over the course of God’s millennium… this is our sharing in the first resurrection. We are blessed in this way, and in Christ — by the Spirit — we are reigning with Him now, in the Spirit, for the balance of the millennium.

Amen.

Davy, in the “beloved city” and the “camp of the saints,” you should see US… all believers; WE are the beloved city of Revelation 20, THE city of God, which is in contrast to Babylon, the worldly city, which is all unbelievers…

Amen.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Per Revelation 22, one of the major changes with the future new heavens and a new earth time, is then there will be NO MORE DEATH. That's huge!

Death is being separated from the Lord... Those that are born again and actually make it to Heaven will no longer be subject to being separated from the Lord.

Those that end up in hell will spend eternity separated from the Lord will remain there for all eternity with no hope of getting out

Jesus says those that go to hell will burn in fire that shall NOT be quenched into everlasting punishment

Mark 9:43-44
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30, and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. Only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do. Luke 16:22–24 shows that fire signifies continued existence in pain as Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this.

Another good case against annihilationism is ”And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” in Rev. 14:11.

It's really sad that the annihilationists claim Jesus Christ.... is a liar

 

[Davy]

What I have said, Davy, very clearly, several times, is that the events of Revelation 19:11-21 are the same events — described differently, but the same events — described in Revelation 20:7-10.

Not true per what is actually written in God's Word. Where you get that above idea is from men's Amill doctrines, not The Bible. And I have already well shown how the Rev.20 chapter events are post-2nd coming by Christ. Thus the false doctrine of men you follow, that claims Rev.19 and Rev.20 are the same events is just a show of Biblical illiteracy.

…is not a fact at all; His “thousand year” millennial reign, which is from heaven — He is right now seated at the right hand of the Father — will have ended at His return, and, after the final Judgement, depicted in Revelation 20:11-15, His eternal reign begins… and of course will have no end.

Jesus will begin... His future "thousand years" on the day of His future return, at His 2nd coming, as God's Word shows in that Rev.20 chapter. You cannot change it either, as much as you and your followers of men would like.

He is. Jesus said so in Matthew 12:29 — speaking of Himself (and Satan as the “strong man”) says, “…how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.” Mark also documents this scene (3:27): “But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.” Satan is bound in that he cannot deceive the nations, as Revelation 20:2-3 says.

Nope, Satan is NOT bound yet today, so it's obvious those who think he is have not read Apostle Peter's warning, which I referred to in my post by the way...

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
KJV

Peter wrote that AFTER Christ's resurrection and ascension to Heaven. IT MEANS SATAN IS NOT YET BOUND TODAY. Amazing how you DENY that Scripture. Why should anyone listen to someone like you who denies so much written Bible Scripture?

Certainly. His binding is not such that he cannot exert influence at all, but he cannot prevent the spread of the Gospel to nations beyond Israel as he once could (before Jesus came.) this is what he is totally bound/sealed from.

That's just making excuses. Rev.20:3 is clear that when Satan is bound in chains in his pit prison, that HE CANNOT DECEIVE THE NATIONS anymore while bound. Satan being able to still deceive today means he is NOT YET BOUND. Thus Peter did not lie, as much as you claim he was lying with your false doctrine.

You apparently have not read that Rev.20:3 Scripture either!

 

[Davy]

There will certainly be a “great tribulation” near the end of the “thousand years,” the (current) millennium, this current time of tribulation…. And it will be, as Jesus said, “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be” (Matthew 24:21)…. <shudder>

NOPE! The "great tribulation" is timed to occur PRIOR to Christ's future 2nd coming, which AFTER His second coming is when His reign over all nations will begin. That... is what is written in God's Word, not the silliness you follow.

Right, and that time may be very near, even by human standards.

You need to LEARN how to properly quote someone. Making incomplete sentences out of my words is NOT how to quote; you show the working of an uneducated amateur.

So I don't have a clue what the subject is with your response above where you quoted me, and I'm not going back in my posts to try and find it. Learn how to properly quote someone.

Well… yes… The first resurrection is what Paul describes in Ephesians 2. In our own time, we are born again of the Spirit and raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly places. And this is happening, new believer by new believer, over the course of God’s millennium… this is our sharing in the first resurrection. We are blessed in this way, and in Christ — by the Spirit — we are reigning with Him now, in the Spirit, for the balance of the millennium.

The fact that Rev.20:4-5 is declaring those saints who overcame the "great tribulation" represent the "first resurrection" ought to reveal to you that the subject time is AFTER Christ's 2nd coming, and the START of His reign with those elect over the nations.

Well, they “will not stand in the judgement“ (Psalm 1)… they “will not stand in the congregation of the righteous.” They will be on the wrong side of the final Judgment and will… depart into this place of outer darkness and then be under — immersed in — God’s judgment — in this “lake of fire” — for eternity, Davy. This is indeed the “second death”… <shudder>

Yes they will 'stand in judgment', which is shown in the Ezekiel 44 chapter. That stand in judgment is an expression, in case you are not aware. It means still being subject to the "second death". Or didn't you realize those of the "resurrection of damnation" are raised from the dead and are NOT saved by Christ?

The Zadok of Ezek.44 represent Christ's elect who reign with "a rod of iron" with Jesus over the unsaved in that time after His future return. It will be their job to teach the unsaved... God''s laws, as those unsaved will "stand in judgment", and that means those who "stand in judgment" are NOT saved!

Ezek 44:23-24
23 And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.
KJV

So that judgement above is NOT upon Christ's faithful elect Church in that future Millennium time. It will be upon the UNSAVED, for it is the unsaved who will "stand in judgment", meaning still liable to perish at the future "lake of fire" at the end of the 1,000 years of Rev.20.

They certainly will be. But not in such a wooden, literalistic sense.

Don't know what you're talking about in the above. What events?

Davy, in the “beloved city” and the “camp of the saints,” you should see US… all believers; WE are the beloved city of Revelation 20, THE city of God, which is in contrast to Babylon, the worldly city, which is all unbelievers…

I WILL... see Christ's FAITHFUL Church as that FUTURE "camp of the saints" on earth at the "beloved city" (new Jerusalem) in that FUTURE TIME. That event has NOT HAPPENED YET TODAY. And it is ignorant to think it is already manifest today!

If we HONESTLY looks at today's city of JERUSALEM, one will find that Islam possesses HALF OF IT, including the Temple Mount area! And the nation of Israel there is made up of a majority of Jews who STILL REJECT JESUS OF NAZARETH AS THE CHRIST. So how... could that ever... be considered as the fulfilled "camp of the saints" of Rev.20?? That's just silliness!

And it shows that the devil's children who came up with those Amill false doctrines don't care what God's Word says as written, but are determined to serve the devil instead! Thus you need to come out of confusion, for the devil is manipulating you with your following the devil's false doctrines on these matters.

And I really do wish... I could in like respond with a 'grace and peace to you' too, but I will not as long as you keep doctrines designed by the devil which have deceived you away from keeping God's Word as written.

 

[Davy]

Death is being separated from the Lord... Those that are born again and actually make it to Heaven will no longer be subject to being separated from the Lord.

Where did you get that doctrine of men from, your Church, or just someone you've been listening to? I'm not going to suppose that you came up with that kind of idea.


No, the future "second death" that will occur at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect over the unsaved will... be a LITERAL death. Rev.20 defines it as the casting into the future "lake of fire."

It will not be a death of the flesh of those who will still reject Christ.

It will be a literal... destruction of their spirit with soul. Psalms 37 reveals those in Christ will look for them, but won't find them, they'll be no more; same with Satan.

Satan himself is already sentenced to perish in that future "lake of fire", along with the wicked, and the abode of hell, and even the concept of sin and death.