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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Humans are not God. Being created in His image does not make us God!
Matthew 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name (ONE) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
And guess Who's Name Jesus' disciples baptized in. It wasn't the Father!
Taken
Well-Known Member
The divinity of Jesus, is centered on WHO He is.
But sure we can discuss yours / my points of view, which each should know the WHY, we hold such views.
God bless you.
Glory to God,
Taken
The understanding of who Jesus is comes from the sacrifice he made.If you truly understand that sacrifice and his death and resurrection you would not need to ask who Jesus is you would understand he is divine.God must open your mind to Christ first ask the Father and he will if your mind is open to God.
When you understand that the sacrifice had to be made and only Jesus could do it.Without the sacrifice there is no salvation the sacrifice means everything all is lost without it and its the key to understanding.
The bible tells us Jesus gave up his Godhood to become man taking on flesh and a soul to make the sacrifice.It also tell us he was given back his glory when he entered heaven after his resurrection.
When you understand that the sacrifice had to be made and only Jesus could do it.Without the sacrifice there is no salvation the sacrifice means everything all is lost without it and its the key to understanding.
The bible tells us Jesus gave up his Godhood to become man taking on flesh and a soul to make the sacrifice.It also tell us he was given back his glory when he entered heaven after his resurrection.
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Take your first two sentence. The sacrifice that Jesus made did not make him full-blown divine, in the least. This is troubling to make such a claim if that is what you intended, without any qualification, and only on a desire or whim, as if to make Christ who you want him to be, to satisfy the limitations of your human mind for fear of misunderstanding, and from the heart warding off any sign or display of the lack of worshipping God, and lacking the true understanding of agape love. In fact it could be construed as being selfish, and deprives the man Jesus of his glory, and his Father's glory that he selected a mortal man to be anointed, and his instrument for our salvation.
He was the 2nd Adam and he had to be like the first, only 100 percent pure human flesh and blood without the propensity to sin internally, from his mind, as the 1st Adam, and especially not being divine, if that were also possible in a human and mortal body.
Remember, as a human being and person, he sacrificed for mankind as he loved us as his own. He was the lowly servant of his Father and to us throughout his mission to the Cross. More importantly though, he sacrificed, because he loved his Father more, and also knew the legal implications under the Law if he did not go through with it, for himself, for mankind and his Father. In order, he would then die and stay dead, mankind would die in their sins, and the Father who is God, would not receive the glory and the victory in his plan for our salvation. God would never let that happen and he indeed ensured it went down as he planned it, step by step.
I didn't say it made him divine - I said he had to be divine to make the sacrifice.No human ever could make the sacrifice or do you claim they could.
The bible does say Jesus was there at the beginning.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John goes on to tell you that Jesus is God all through his gospel.
And the glory which thou gravest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one. Jesus knew that he was one with God from all eternity. As the Son of God he was eternally in God and God in him.The Holy Spirit comes from the Father and Son Jesus said he had to ascend to heaven and to the father for the holy spirit to come.Which came after his ascension.
The bible does say Jesus was there at the beginning.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John goes on to tell you that Jesus is God all through his gospel.
Philippians 2:5-11
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.And the glory which thou gravest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one. Jesus knew that he was one with God from all eternity. As the Son of God he was eternally in God and God in him.The Holy Spirit comes from the Father and Son Jesus said he had to ascend to heaven and to the father for the holy spirit to come.Which came after his ascension.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Matthew 28:19 doesn't say anything about the idea that God is a single being in three persons.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I know. But I asked my rhetorical question to clarify where we get our definitions of the terms we use. That is why I quoted the Athanasius Creed, where the term "person" indicates the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The Father is a person,
The Son is a person,
The Holy Spirit is a person,
And they are all one God.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Jack,
The underlying assumption in the debate is whether or not Jesus and God share a numerical identity. To answer that question, we look at passages like Colossians 1:15, and Hebrews 1:3, where we learn that Jesus has representational, not numerical, identity with God.
In his gospel, John the Apostle explains that Jesus is the exegesis of God, meaning that we understand the true nature of the transcendent creator through a human man—Jesus.
Its self explanatory Jn 1:1,14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word[which was God] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Dont you ever tell me you believe the scripture ! You dont
I do appreciate your feedback PGS. It is a subject worth examining none-the-less.
John 1:1-5 is not well understand by most IMO and folks who rely on their pet definition or what has been handed down to them as one of their pillars of truth may be in for a rude awakening.
And you presenting Phil 2:5-11 is much of the same. Most probably you mean as many, of a twisted kenosis version that had to applied to patch up or hold-up the hypostasis device used by many.
And then John 17:5 of the same artificial and non-intended meaning of scripture to say of Jesus that was never intended. You did read verse 17:3 I would assume to gauge some type of context before turning in your exam paper as you may have marked the wrong circle for the answer?
(Joh 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Agree.
@CadyandZoe
This is where it gets funky in trying to explain in secular terms, to a secular world, a spiritual event.
God IS Spirit.
Spirits (God / Angels) can Appear in the Likeness of human men…AND enter Into human men.)
God IS Spirit, and Has Spirits (Which are Gods Same One Spirit)…YET can have specific Tasks, intents, names, descriptions, services to Accomplish For God.
Gods Word, Is Called: Jesus, Truth, Life, Teacher, Master, Lord, Holy, Savior, Maker, Way, Spirit, Man.
Gods Power, Is Called: Christ.
Gods Seed, Is Called: Christ.
Gods Word Jesus Was revealed: Is Christ.
Whatever IS OF God, Goes forth “out” from God, “remains” IN God, IS God.
Gods Word, Power, Seed, Truth, etc. Goes Forth out from God, Yet Remains IN God.
Human men were MADE in that Same Likeness…
Their “word, power, truth, etc” goes forth out from them, yet remains IN them.
Regarding “humans”, their Life IS Blood.
Regarding “souls”;
All souls Belong to God.
The Life of All souls IS Gods Breath.
Souls ARE “Imparted Into” men and “Departed out from” men, by the Power of God.
“Imparted or Departed”…the Life of the soul remains In the soul… until Judgement Day…
WHEN Saved Souls Will Continue Forever With Gods Life IN them…AND Unsaved souls shall have Gods Life depart forever from them.( and Killed/Destroyed)
So no …Jesus’ Soul Did Not suffer Death, nor Sacrifice.
God Anciently (for 4,000 years) communicated with His Created and Made mankind of beings…
Invisible, Unseen, with His Word and His Power.
God Historically. (2,000 + years ago)….for approx 30 years Revealed a Visible Lawful Jewish man of the House of David…
And thereafter (for 3 years) Revealed, this specific man, shall “secularly” to all men “OF” this World (Earth), shall be Called: the Son of God.
Human men “WHO” freely Choose to Accept Gods Offering of This Son of God, (IS the Word of God in the Flesh); That such men Become “MADE”, “by their Confession of True Belief that That man (called Jesus). IS the Son of God, sent by God…
Such men “Shall Receive”; Once and Forever;
1) Forgiveness, for having HAD unbelief.
2) The Spirit of Gods Truth (Jesus), IN them.
3) The Seed of God (Christ), IN them.
4) The Power of God (Christ), IN them.
5) The Gift of Salvation of their Soul, In them.
That their Soul Shall maintain Having Gods Life IN it Forever.
6) The Rebirth of their natural spirit (ie natural truth IN their heart) to rebirth of Their Natural spirit from a human mans Seed, to Gods spiritual Birth from Gods Seed….WHICH…thereafter THAT Spirit can Never Die, and forever Shall remain Alive and “with God”.
The Word of God, came forth out of Gods Mouth.
The Body of Gods Word …IS a Body God “Purposed IN Himself” and “Prepared”…with Flesh AND Blood …in the visible Likeness AS a human man… For WHEN, He would Send that Body to Earth….to Teach Stubborn Human Men…who can ONLY Believe (not so much by what they Hear), but what they CAN SEE.
Gods Word, Power, Soul, Spirit Was Not Sacrificed.
The Body of Flesh and Blood, God Prepared…was Sacrificed unto Death…. For the Life of the Whole World of manKind.
The Whole World of mankind…can Freely Reach out and Take Gods Bought and paid for GIFT Offering….or Not.
Scripture verification for any point specific upon request.
Glory to God,
Taken
Taken
Well-Known Member
God established Terms for mankind…
Day, night, days, years, relationships, mother, father, genders, male, female, up, down, with, without….etc.
Things that are familiar for humans usage and common understanding.
Then God teaches ManKind little by little About Himself, (God), using comparable terms mankind already understands.
Why is God “invisible”, Yet Omnipresent, and when Speaking About God IN Heaven, He IS Called The “Father”?
Human men Had been “calling” their Human Male “seed” procreators / Father, for Decades…
When and Why did men Begin calling God IN Heaven “Father”?
Scripture reveals…Who, When, Why…first called God in Heaven “Father”.
Before Deut…the word “father” in regards to a human man is mentioned Hundreds of Times.
The Term Father in Regards to God (in Heaven)., as The Father First mentioned by Moses.
Deut 32:
[6] Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
God ON Earth, in a Visible, Prepared Body, was revealed to be Called: The ONLY Begotten, Son of God.
Glory to God,
Taken
'God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners
.. spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
.... Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son,
...... Whom He hath appointed heir of all things,
........ by Whom also He made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of His glory,
.. and the express image of His person,
.... and upholding all things by the word of His power,
...... when He had by Himself purged our sins,
........ sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Being made so much better than the angels,
.. as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
.... For unto which of the angels said He at any time,
...... "Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten thee?"
........ And again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?"
.......... And again, when He bringeth in The Firstbegotten into the world,
.............. He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
................. And of the angels He saith,
.................... "Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire."
.................... But unto the Son He saith,
...................... "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
........................ a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
(Heb 1:1-8)
Praise God!
.. spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
.... Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son,
...... Whom He hath appointed heir of all things,
........ by Whom also He made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of His glory,
.. and the express image of His person,
.... and upholding all things by the word of His power,
...... when He had by Himself purged our sins,
........ sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Being made so much better than the angels,
.. as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
.... For unto which of the angels said He at any time,
...... "Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten thee?"
........ And again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?"
.......... And again, when He bringeth in The Firstbegotten into the world,
.............. He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
................. And of the angels He saith,
.................... "Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire."
.................... But unto the Son He saith,
...................... "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
........................ a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
(Heb 1:1-8)
Praise God!
Great scripture selection Charity.
It's great that the Father not only spoke through the prophets, he also spoke through his unique Son to share the great news, the gospel of life.
The Son expressed his father's wishes as his agent and his expression or word, perfectly.
And it's why he was made or created to be, and so much better than the angels.
He atoned for our sins and and since that time and today, he, the Son of God, shares his Father's throne as his own, in the new Kingdom.
Taken
Well-Known Member
The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit Are All the Same One God Spirit….having Power Greater than All of Gods Creation.
Living human body’s …all have A living soul (which that soul and the Life in that soul belongs to God), but is called and identified by the body’s Name.
The human body’s Life is Blood.
Humans can and do Kill human body’s.
Ultimately God “requires” that All human body’s, must, shall die.
A created Human Alive Body’s, with a living soul IN that body; is Expressly called ”A Person”.
God Revealed “IF” God were a human Man, WHAT His Body “would” Look LIKE….TO Human EYES…
* A short statured, male, not particularly handsome, with characteristics generally noticed in human Jewish men, prominate nose, dark eyes, wavy hair, brownish skin…
Remembering, as can Created Spirits (angels) taken UPON themselves the “likeness of Human looking Bodies”…
Beneath THAT Visible ( to human eyes), is their Spirit Body, that Is invisible to Human Eyes.
Gods was revealed in a Body, God prepared for human men to See.
Did Gods Spirit Body, disappear? No. Gods Body continued to remain Alive beneath His prepared body that God Purposed and took upon Himself to accomplish His Will, while Remaining Equal within Himself.
Phil 2:
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Remember…the “FORM” IS the Body.
Glory to God,
Taken
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I do believe the scripture. I take issue with the interpretation contrived by the Catholics in 325AD.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I don't know what you are talking about. I'm talking about language, grammar, and vocabulary in the context of your claim that God isn't a person. I gave you an example of a creed wherein God is called a person.
(Col 1:15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
The 'Form' or image of God that Jesus expressed is neither the physical human body or the original, or the spirit of God. His form is only the representation of his Father, having his expressed mental state and attitude as his Father, who dwelt/dwells within him.
(Joh 14:8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
(Joh 14:9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
(Joh 14:10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
He became the new immortal creature of God, the firstborn of many that would follow. And thus the head of the Body of believers
The 'Form' or image of God that Jesus expressed is neither the physical human body or the original, or the spirit of God. His form is only the representation of his Father, having his expressed mental state and attitude as his Father, who dwelt/dwells within him.
(Joh 14:8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
(Joh 14:9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
(Joh 14:10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
He became the new immortal creature of God, the firstborn of many that would follow. And thus the head of the Body of believers
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