So what does the divinity of Jesus really mean, anyway?

[Wrangler]

1. That there is no explicit verse or verses of scripture that say Jesus is divine, deity or God
2. That there is only implied evidence of his full-up divinity, deity or being God.

On the contrary, regarding Jesus being divine (in the sense of being FROM or OF God), is explicitly and repeatedly stated: son, word, servant, priest, apostle, lamb, begotten, etc. Angels are also divine, also FROM God. This does not mean any divine creature is God, including Jesus.

Regarding the claim that Jesus is God:
A. There are explicit verses that teach Jesus is a man.
B. There are explicit verses that teach God's eternal name is YHWH.
C. There are explicit verses that teach there is one God, the Father.
D. There is no evidence implying Jesus is a deity, only eisegesis where one must read into the unitarian text, a trinitarian dogma, i.e., one cannot compare an actual logical implication to reading what you want into text, rejecting non-trinitarian interpretations without just cause, not just because you want to.
E. There are many overwhelming proof texts that logically imply Jesus is not God, e.g.,

• he died,
• God raised him from the dead,
• has a God,
• has no authority on his own (John 12:49)
• submitted his will to God's will,
• prayed himself to God,
• taught us to pray to God in heaven while he was on Earth,
• admitted God is greater than him, knows more than him, sent him, told him what to say and how to say it.

e. If the word/logos was with God and the word became, a human being and person's (voice), with a sinless internal human nature as Adam, then he was God

This takes personification, extreme eisegesis to the point of contradiction, while also ignoring context and logic, e.g., how can something be a thing and WITH that thing at the same time besides the trinitarian interpretation? (Perhaps this is the reason why this is the only item on your list with the conditional if statement, which renders the entire hypothesis circular).

 

[Taken]

So what does the divinity of Jesus really mean, anyway?​

Personality? No.
Personalities applies to Persons.
A person IS a created man (from dust of the Earth), it’s Life, Blood
…with a Living soul With-IN him, the souls Life, Gods Breath.

Divine, means possessing Divinity? Yes.

Divinity, means Absolute Holiness? Yes.

Absolute Holiness means?
* Has Never Sinned? Correct.
* Is Not capable of Committing Sin? Correct.

God the Father is Not capable of Committing Sin.
God the Son is Not Capable of Commiting Sin.

Sin IS Standing AGAINST God. (Unbelief, rejection)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[PGS11]

I notice it has everything but his sacrifice of Atonement its so easy to overlook - its the reason why he came.Its why Jesus had to be divine no human being could make the sacrifice.Its how you can understand his divinity.

That's a growing trend Jesus without his sacrifice.

Jesus did not come into existence at birth he came and took on flesh and a soul.He was divine.Did you come and take on flesh and a soul - no the bible says your a created being at birth.

Jesus is not a created being at birth he is the divine who came and took on flesh and a soul.

 

[APAK]

On the contrary, regarding Jesus being divine (in the sense of being FROM or OF God), is explicitly and repeatedly stated: son, word, servant, priest, apostle, lamb, begotten, etc. Angels are also divine, also FROM God. This does not mean any divine creature is God, including Jesus.

Regarding the claim that Jesus is God:
A. There are explicit verses that teach Jesus is a man.
B. There are explicit verses that teach God's eternal name is YHWH.
C. There are explicit verses that teach there is one God, the Father.
D. There is no evidence implying Jesus is a deity, only eisegesis where one must read into the unitarian text, a trinitarian dogma, i.e., one cannot compare an actual logical implication to reading what you want into text, rejecting non-trinitarian interpretations without just cause, not just because you want to.
E. There are many overwhelming proof texts that logically imply Jesus is not God, e.g.,

• he died,
• God raised him from the dead,
• has a God,
• has no authority on his own (John 12:49)
• submitted his will to God's will,
• prayed himself to God,
• taught us to pray to God in heaven while he was on Earth,
• admitted God is greater than him, knows more than him, sent him, told him what to say and how to say it.

This takes personification, extreme eisegesis to the point of contradiction, while also ignoring context and logic, e.g., how can something be a thing and WITH that thing at the same time besides the trinitarian interpretation? (Perhaps this is the reason why this is the only item on your list with the conditional if statement, which renders the entire hypothesis circular).

Agreed, although you came at this subject unexpectedly in a different view...

And to recap what you just said, I guess you are speaking of a different more general definition of divinity, that is not full blown specifically God then? Being from God does not make Jesus divine of course, as you said. And the angels if by this type of definition of divinity, they have acquired this 'type' of divinity or God's attributes from God. And it does not make them God either as you said.

The circular (illogical) reasoning used by others to compliment John 1:1 and verse 14 as Jesus being the intersection, or common element is so ridiculous as you also implied. The common element is God's logos not his Son!

Yes it is impossible for Christ to be God, although he was influenced and drew divine characteristics from his Father. Unavoidable...

 

[APAK]

I notice it has everything but his sacrifice of Atonement its so easy to overlook - its the reason why he came.Its why Jesus had to be divine no human being could make the sacrifice.Its how you can understand his divinity.

That's a growing trend Jesus without his sacrifice.

Jesus did not come into existence at birth he came and took on flesh and a soul.He was divine.Did you come and take on flesh and a soul - no the bible says your a created being at birth.

Jesus is not a created being at birth he is the divine who came and took on flesh and a soul.

PSG11, I'm cheerleading for you opponents if you have not figured that out yet...sorry

At least you show your honesty, although your honestly might be empty.

As you, and most as you, do not have faith and believe that the Father God is behind the entire plan of salvation and enabled his Son Jesus to atone for our sins as all the others 5 implications I listed in that recent post.

We have to believe in the Father as God FIRST, the only God of all, else just believing in his Son and elevating him equal and even above the Father who is God, makes our faith empty and misplaced. When we point to Christ in our daily lives, we must ALWAYS look to his Father ultimately, as Jesus did and still does today!..
......very important indeed.

 

[Wrangler]

And to recap what you just said, I guess you are speaking of a different more general definition of divinity, that is not full blown specifically God then?

Definition is the 1st pillar that must be violated to support the trinity. There are different senses of many words, including divine and god. To emphasize this, there is a book called, Jesus is not God with a capital G.

The words of someone who has authority contain authority. So, in that sense only are words, specifically words of the Creator YHWH in our context, god. It does not make his words another person. This is critically important. The words of one in authority have authority. To defy the words is to defy the one who spoke them. As a kid, when you tell your sister that your mother said to come into the house for dinner, you are not speaking on your own authority. You are speaking the words of the one in authority. This does not give you authority for you are only a messenger of one in authority.

This is so simple and plain to see in Scripture. Jesus explicitly states this, that he has no authority on his own. And this explains why other passages in the narrative teach that after he was resurrected, he was given all authority to be the lord of heaven and Earth. This does not create yet another person; a Jesus without authority begets a Jesus with authority! Or a 3rd or even 6th Jesus. The first being the supposed pre-carnate Jesus without a body. All these Jesus' with and without authority, with and without a body, with and without a human nature, it's hard to keep track, right?

This humorously brings into question the mysticism in trinity-land where persons are arbitrarily created at some times and conditions but not other times and conditions.

Christianity imbues certain words with theological significance and invents special meaning. This is often indicated by capitalization. Abuse of capitalization, I say. In today's devotional reading, I find the word "son" at John 19:26, where Jesus told his mother the disciple he loved was his son. Just like the capitalized title "Son of God," the use of this word "son" does not mean biological relationship. Other words where capitalization is abused in Christendom besides god is lord. There are many gods and lords in Scripture. This is a fact.

How then do we reconcile it to Jewish monotheism? Definition. Specifically, senses of definition. When referring to the Creator, the common noun god invites confusion. The unique name and proper noun to use is YHWH.

Language usage is another pillar that must be violated to support the trinity. In use today is formal and informal ways of referring to the President of the United States (POTUS). Respectfully, one might say President Trump. Less formally, people use just the last name, Trump. It can get confusing to invoke the common noun, president. Many countries have presidents and many companies have presidents. Trinitarians deliberately rely on this confusion to "support" their dogma. The president of Argentina went to CPAC this past weekend. The president said to the president ...

Truth be told, there is the Lord God (YHWH) and the Lord Jesus. One way to know these are 2 different lords is because Scripture tells us they sit side by side. Jesus sits on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55–56 (and many other places). If Jesus was believed to be the Lord God by Biblical writers, they never would have recorded this fact. A powerful anti-trinity observation is no verse identifies 3 persons sitting together in the heavenlies.

To again confuse what Scripture makes clear, trinitarians parse synonyms. Particularly, "person" with "being." The Supreme Being is one person. One person is God and sitting to his right is another person, Jesus. Taking the unitarian text for what it is, Scripture rejects trinitarianism at every point. This makes sense because the dogma contradicts Scripture and is inherently contradictory. Sure, Jesus is divine, meaning OF or FROM God but he is not a deity himself.

 

[Soyeong]

What it means for the God of Israel to be our God and the way to know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about Him is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness by being a doer of His character traits in obedience to Him. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God’s law we are testifying about His goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16) and by testifying about God’s goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words we are believing in Him. Likewise, the way to believe that God is a doer of justice is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness by being a doer of justice, the way to believe that God is holy as by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth for God’s other character traits.

This is exactly the same for the Son because the Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God’s law. If Jesus had been anything less than the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character, then worshiping him as God would have been idolatry, but because he is all of that, then we can point to him as being who God is and our good works worship both the Father and the Son, so it makes no difference to specify that our good works worship one or the other. When we worship the Son by being in his likeness, then we aren’t doing something other than worshipping the Father by being in His likeness. Likewise, aspects of God’s character are the fruits of the Spirit, so worshiping the Spirit by directing our lives towards bearing the fruits of the Spirit is not doing something other than worshiping the Father.

 

[APAK]

What it means for the God of Israel to be our God and the way to know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about Him is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness by being a doer of His character traits in obedience to Him. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God’s law we are testifying about His goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16) and by testifying about God’s goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words we are believing in Him. Likewise, the way to believe that God is a doer of justice is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness by being a doer of justice, the way to believe that God is holy as by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth for God’s other character traits.

This is exactly the same for the Son because the Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God’s law. If Jesus had been anything less than the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character, then worshiping him as God would have been idolatry, but because he is all of that, then we can point to him as being who God is and our good works worship both the Father and the Son, so it makes no difference to specify that our good works worship one or the other. When we worship the Son by being in his likeness, then we aren’t doing something other than worshipping the Father by being in His likeness. Likewise, aspects of God’s character are the fruits of the Spirit, so worshiping the Spirit by directing our lives towards bearing the fruits of the Spirit is not doing something other than worshiping the Father.

Yes indeed, we give and do the same for our Prince as for our, and his King. The Son is the agent of his Father, working as the same as the Father, for the same goals and purposes.

 

[APAK]

@Wrangler, noted the new updated CyB rules of yesterday, today.

I miss the Father, as he is the sole source of divinity, not being mentioned in the Intro. The obsession with Christ is one thing, and of course has its rightful place, although to ignore the Father's name, above all, as also the sole source of our salvation can be viewed as condemnable, and unacceptable to any true Christian.

 

[Ritajanice]

You also have to remember that, if it wasn’t for the loyalty and obedience of Jesus, there would be NO reconciling us back to our Father God...that’s why his Father has exalted him, as we exalt him in that regard....there is NO Name above the Name Of JESUS!......we are privileged as a Born Again to follow the teachings of Christ.....he was the exact copy of His Father....Perfect in every way...not one stain or blemish to his Name or character....I also thank God for the way the forum is growing in Christ!!

Thank you Lord Jesus from the depths of my heart , for going to the cross for us , who don’t even deserve it, imo....what you must have gone through, I can’t even begin to imagine.....you did that out of TRUE LOVE!....an AMAZING act of selflessness......for wretched sinners like us that we once were.....without you Lord Jesus, we would all still be alienated from our Father God.....Praise God for JESUS the Name above all other Names!!

The Bible shows us that Jesus speaks to the Father on our behalf. Romans 8:34says that Jesus “is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.” In 1 John 2:1 we read that Jesus is our “advocate with the Father,” and from Hebrews 7:25 we learn that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for us.

 

[Jack]

@Wrangler, noted the new updated CyB rules of yesterday, today.

I miss the Father, as he is the sole source of divinity, not being mentioned in the Intro. The obsession with Christ is one thing, and of course has its rightful place, although to ignore the Father's name, above all, as also the sole source of our salvation can be viewed as condemnable, and unacceptable to any true Christian.

Acts 4:10-12
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

 

[CadyandZoe]

So what does the divinity of Jesus really mean, anyway?​

Personality? No.
Personalities applies to Persons.
A person IS a created man (from dust of the Earth), it’s Life, Blood
…with a Living soul With-IN him, the souls Life, Gods Breath.

Divine, means possessing Divinity? Yes.

Divinity, means Absolute Holiness? Yes.

Absolute Holiness means?
* Has Never Sinned? Correct.
* Is Not capable of Committing Sin? Correct.

God the Father is Not capable of Committing Sin.
God the Son is Not Capable of Commiting Sin.

Sin IS Standing AGAINST God. (Unbelief, rejection)

Glory to God,
Taken

I disagree with your definition of "person," which limits the definition to a human being. Consider the following passage from the Athanasian Creed.

Now this is the catholic faith:​

​

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.​

 

[CadyandZoe]

Its self explanatory Jn 1:1,14

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word[which was God] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Dont you ever tell me you believe the scripture ! You dont

John 1:1 contains an apparent contradiction. How can the word BE God and be WITH God simultaneously? For the moment, assume the Trinitarian view. The term "God" refers to a single entity comprised of three persons. Then, we have "In the beginning, was "the single entity" and the "single entity" was with himself and was himself?

Since our doctrine has rendered John 1:1 as a contradiction, then we know that our doctrine is wrong. The only way that John 1:1, makes sense is if we retain the original definition of the term "logos" indicating the product of a mind, i.e. an account, a script, a plan, or a promise.

John 1:14 is understood in that context. If John were talking about a house, we all know what it means for a house plan to become a house. We sit down at the drawing board and create house plans. We send the plans off to a builder, who builds the house. The plan became the house.

John is saying that God, the planner, made a story or a script about how he would live among his people, and that story became real in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[Jack]

John 1:1 contains an apparent contradiction. How can the word BE God and be WITH God simultaneously?

How can God not be with Himself? He certainly talks to Himself.

Gen 1:26 God said, "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness"!

 

[CadyandZoe]

How can God not be with Himself? He certainly talks to Himself.

I talk to myself too, but it doesn't mean that I exist as two people.

Gen 1:26 God said, "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness"!

How is man made in God's image if God exists as three persons?

 

[APAK]

I talk to myself too, but it doesn't mean that I exist as two people.

How is man made in God's image if God exists as three persons?

Keeping my cool although that last one is definitely a keeper C&Z...

 

[Taken]

I disagree with your definition of "person," which limits the definition to a human being. Consider the following passage from the Athanasian Creed.

Now this is the catholic faith:​

​

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,​

neither blending their persons​

nor dividing their essence.​

For the person of the Father is a distinct person,​

the person of the Son is another,​

and that of the Holy Spirit still another.​

But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,​

their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.​

Thanks for Sharing.
Your adaption of reasoning is partly why I am in disagreement with you and Catholics and not a member of the Catholic Organization.

I incline my reasoning in agreement with Webster; And Scripture.
Person:
1. An individual human being consisting of body and soul. We apply the word to living beings only, possessed of a rational nature; the body when dead is not called a person It is applied alike to a man, woman or child.
2. A man, woman or child, considered as opposed to things, or distinct from them.
3. A human being, considered with respect to the living body or corporeal existence only.

Gen 35:
[18] And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.

And dead Body’s…accurately called: (in the medical fields of science and directors of Funerals)…
cadavers. departed, loved one, corpse, deceased, stiff, fallen, by name…not Persons.

Spirits do not Become Persons.
Persons do not Become Spirits.
Humans beings “have” a spirit.
Created Spirit beings “Are” Spirits.

Mysterious if one can not Understand on a Spiritual Level…
God IS Spirit, He Has multiple Spirits, that are All His One Spirit.
Gods multiple Spirits, Are Collectively Gods Light, Gods Glory, Have Descriptions, Names, Titles and Serves God to Accomplish His Will.

Spirits “have” Spirit Bodies, human eyes can not see.
Spirits “have” the Power to enter “living human bodies”.
Spirits “have” the Power to “take upon themselves the Likeness OF a “known or unknown” human’s “ likeness “, visible to manKind.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Jack]

I talk to myself too, but it doesn't mean that I exist as two people.

Most of us do. We are made in His image.

How is man made in God's image if God exists as three persons?

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE!

Matthew 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name (ONE) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[Taken]

How is man made in God's image if God exists as three persons?

God “exists AS 3 persons”…is a long standing ancient, historical, poor attempt of Catholic teaching to define God.

God “created” manKinds body from dust. (In Gods Image)
* A body, outside “image”, (head, trunk, arms, hands, legs, feet) Gods Image.

God “made” that body receive:
* A “very good” soul from God. (In Gods Likeness…very good.
* A mind and heart that can “receive” and “decipher, trust, believe or reject knowledge”.
(After Gods Likeness…very good.

Gen 1:
[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 1:
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Creation is complete.
The Making continues.
Gods Making was Very Good.
Mans ability to think, cipher, believe, reject…
Is mans conundrum, his mortal journey of trials, of errors, of freely choosing to cease his mortal life with or without God Forever.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks for Sharing.
Your adaption of reasoning is partly why I am in disagreement with you and Catholics and not a member of the Catholic Organization.

I incline my reasoning in agreement with Webster; And Scripture.
Person:
1. An individual human being consisting of body and soul. We apply the word to living beings only, possessed of a rational nature; the body when dead is not called a person It is applied alike to a man, woman or child.
2. A man, woman or child, considered as opposed to things, or distinct from them.
3. A human being, considered with respect to the living body or corporeal existence only.

Gen 35:
[18] And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.

And dead Body’s…accurately called: (in the medical fields of science and directors of Funerals)…
cadavers. departed, loved one, corpse, deceased, stiff, fallen, by name…not Persons.

Spirits do not Become Persons.
Persons do not Become Spirits.
Humans beings “have” a spirit.
Created Spirit beings “Are” Spirits.

Mysterious if one can not Understand on a Spiritual Level…
God IS Spirit, He Has multiple Spirits, that are All His One Spirit.
Gods multiple Spirits, Are Collectively Gods Light, Gods Glory, Have Descriptions, Names, Titles and Serves God to Accomplish His Will.

Spirits “have” Spirit Bodies, human eyes can not see.
Spirits “have” the Power to enter “living human bodies”.
Spirits “have” the Power to “take upon themselves the Likeness OF a “known or unknown” human’s “ likeness “, visible to manKind.

Glory to God,
Taken

Okay, I understand. However, isn't the discussion centered on the divinity of Jesus? And can we discuss the divinity of Jesus apart from the credal definition?