The Church of Rome denies Jesus came in the flesh

[Hobie]

We see what the Bible says..

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The antichrist has to deny Jesus came in the flesh. Let’s look up the greek word “flesh” in the greek Lexicon and see what it can mean:

Strong’s Hebrew/Greek Concordance:

sarx: Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): – carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon:

Thayer Definition:
1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts

2) the body 2a) the body of a man 2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship 2b1) born of natural generation 2c) the sensuous nature of man, “the animal nature” 2c1) without any suggestion of depravity 2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin 2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering

3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast

4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

Now… what is our human nature? What are all human beings guilty of according to the bible? They are all guilty of SIN (Romans 3:23). Our human nature if our “want” to, or being “prone” to sin. The bible teaches that although Jesus never sinned, he became sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21). It teaches that Jesus came through the line of David (Matthew 1:1) yet David said, “Behold, I was shapen in INIQUITY; and in SIN did my mother conceive me.” -Psalm 51:5. This means that the whole line of David was a lineage individuals with a nature to sin, including Jesus. This is how Jesus, being God, could be tempted to sin (compare James 1:13 with Hebrews 4:15) because he became man, and being made into a man he had the same human nature as man… the ability to sin.

So, how does the Roman Catholic Church teach that Jesus did not come in the flesh (human nature)? Well when they teach that the Virgin Mary was sinless at her conception of the baby Jesus, they in essence teach that Jesus has not come in the flesh, because Jesus came through her lineage, and as David had a nature to sin, she also had a nature to sin. Read the following quote from a Roman Catechism:

491. “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, ‘full of grace’ through God, [Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of JESUS Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. -Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.

To say that Jesus came into the world this way, born of a virgin who was not of sinful “flesh” as we are all in our human nature, is to say he did not come in the “flesh” of sinful nature because he came through HER lineage. Think about it.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

It has been reported that the USA JWs have a great dislike for the RCC, and this thread, to my way of thinking, is just another attack thread against the RCC.

Whether or not the RCC has the same theological understanding of the JW denomination is irrelevant to the requirement that John gave this in his letter: -

2 John 4-6: - Walk in Christ's Commandments​

​

4 I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. 5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.​

NKJV​

It seems to me that you sadly are not following this commandment with yet another attack upon the RCC.

 

[APAK]

We see what the Bible says..

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The antichrist has to deny Jesus came in the flesh. Let’s look up the greek word “flesh” in the greek Lexicon and see what it can mean:

Strong’s Hebrew/Greek Concordance:

sarx: Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): – carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

Hobie, you have just singled out the RCC as possessing the spirt of the Anti-Christ. You might be also attacking or accusing yourself of the same thing if you are a daughter of the RCC, then you too have the same spirit. In fact anyone who supports a Jesus the Christ with only a human nature and especially also being a divine being and NOT a human being also has the same spirit that opposes Christ.

I'm glad you at least understand the scripture of 2 John 1:7 you quoted in the OP....

 

[Hobie]

Hobie, you have just singled out the RCC as possessing the spirt of the Anti-Christ. You might be also attacking or accusing yourself of the same thing if you are a daughter of the RCC, then you too have the same spirit. In fact anyone who supports a Jesus the Christ with only a human nature and especially also being a divine being and NOT a human being also has the same spirit that opposes Christ.

I'm glad you at least understand the scripture of 2 John 1:7 you quoted in the OP....

The daughters of the Papacy are those who follow its apostacy and paganism, this would include the worship on the day of the sun, Sunday. But rather than attack the daughter churches its best to focus on the common ground shared, and present the truth as it is in Jesus rather than to tear down these churches. But eventually they must come out of the apostate church and its false doctrines and into the truth given in Gods Word or they will share in the wrath that befalls this church which follows the spirit of Anti-Christ.

 

[BreadOfLife]

We see what the Bible says..

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The antichrist has to deny Jesus came in the flesh. Let’s look up the greek word “flesh” in the greek Lexicon and see what it can mean:

Strong’s Hebrew/Greek Concordance:

sarx: Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): – carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon:

Thayer Definition:
1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts

2) the body 2a) the body of a man 2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship 2b1) born of natural generation 2c) the sensuous nature of man, “the animal nature” 2c1) without any suggestion of depravity 2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin 2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering

3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast

4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

Now… what is our human nature? What are all human beings guilty of according to the bible? They are all guilty of SIN (Romans 3:23). Our human nature if our “want” to, or being “prone” to sin. The bible teaches that although Jesus never sinned, he became sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21). It teaches that Jesus came through the line of David (Matthew 1:1) yet David said, “Behold, I was shapen in INIQUITY; and in SIN did my mother conceive me.” -Psalm 51:5. This means that the whole line of David was a lineage individuals with a nature to sin, including Jesus. This is how Jesus, being God, could be tempted to sin (compare James 1:13 with Hebrews 4:15) because he became man, and being made into a man he had the same human nature as man… the ability to sin.

So, how does the Roman Catholic Church teach that Jesus did not come in the flesh (human nature)? Well when they teach that the Virgin Mary was sinless at her conception of the baby Jesus, they in essence teach that Jesus has not come in the flesh, because Jesus came through her lineage, and as David had a nature to sin, she also had a nature to sin. Read the following quote from a Roman Catechism:

491. “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, ‘full of grace’ through God, [Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of JESUS Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. -Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.

To say that Jesus came into the world this way, born of a virgin who was not of sinful “flesh” as we are all in our human nature, is to say he did not come in the “flesh” of sinful nature because he came through HER lineage. Think about it.

Heb 4:15 explicitly states that although Jesus was like us in everything – He was without sin:

“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.”
No personal sin – no Original sin. NO SIN.

And, was Adam not made in the “flesh”? Was he born in sin?
Your argument falls flat on its face – as USUAL . . .

Also - the fact that Jesus was tempted doesn’t mean that He was born in sin.
Deut. 6:16 says:
"You shall not tempt the Lord your God, as you tempted him in Massah"

In the desert, Jesus told Satan:
Matt. 4:7
It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

The daughters of the Papacy are those who follow its apostacy and paganism, this would include the worship on the day of the sun, Sunday. But rather than attack the daughter churches its best to focus on the common ground shared, and present the truth as it is in Jesus rather than to tear down these churches. But eventually they must come out of the apostate church and its false doctrines and into the truth given in Gods Word or they will share in the wrath that befalls this church which follows the spirit of Anti-Christ.

For Christ’s pilgrim Church to become “apostate” makes Him a LIAR (Matt. 16:18).
YOU ,may be willing to accuse Him of that – but NOT me.

Good luck with that . . .

 

[Hobie]

Heb 4:15 explicitly states that although Jesus was like us in everything – He was without sin:

“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.”
No personal sin – no Original sin. NO SIN.

And, was Adam not made in the “flesh”? Was he born in sin?
Your argument falls flat on its face – as USUAL . . .

Also - the fact that Jesus was tempted doesn’t mean that He was born in sin.
Deut. 6:16 says:
"You shall not tempt the Lord your God, as you tempted him in Massah"

In the desert, Jesus told Satan:
Matt. 4:7
It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

For Christ’s pilgrim Church to become “apostate” makes Him a LIAR (Matt. 16:18).
YOU ,may be willing to accuse Him of that – but NOT me.

Good luck with that . . .

Look at Christs words on this entity and it goes beyond even that...
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

 

[PGS11]

Its not that they teach she is sinless its that she is without original sin.Without original sin a person is capable of being sinless.The immaculate conception is believed because if Mary was with original sin Jesus would have had to of taken on fallen flesh.It is believed God the Father prepared her at birth for Jesus to come and take on flesh.Mary without original sin would allow Jesus to come and take on flesh that is not fallen.Yep right back to that fallen flesh again.Because Jesus is divine he could not take on fallen flesh.Mary takes no credit herself and gives all the glory to the Father. She is not thought of as a God just a human being without original sin who was the Mother of Jesus.The number one Saint.Mary can't raise you up or forgive your sins and no one teaches that there is only one Savior..

God the Father prepared for all of it I don't know how you could think he didn't.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Look at Christs words on this entity and it goes beyond even that...
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

As usual - you completely dodge my rebuttal of your point and post a verse that is irrelevant to the conversation. Good job . . .

 

[Hobie]

Its not that they teach she is sinless its that she is without original sin.Without original sin a person is capable of being sinless.The immaculate conception is believed because if Mary was with original sin Jesus would have had to of taken on fallen flesh.It is believed God the Father prepared her at birth for Jesus to come and take on flesh.Mary without original sin would allow Jesus to come and take on flesh that is not fallen.Yep right back to that fallen flesh again.Because Jesus is divine he could not take on fallen flesh.Mary takes no credit herself and gives all the glory to the Father. She is not thought of as a God just a human being without original sin who was the Mother of Jesus.The number one Saint.Mary can't raise you up or forgive your sins and no one teaches that there is only one Savior..

God the Father prepared for all of it I don't know how you could think he didn't.

Original sin is a Catholic doctrine that they came up with not from the Bible, and there is the problem. Mary had the same nature all mankind had after the fall, this is the reason Christ came to redeem mankind and give His life for us.

 

[Hobie]

As usual - you completely dodge my rebuttal of your point and post a verse that is irrelevant to the conversation. Good job . . .

Without sin, nothing about "original. sin", so no real point.

 

[David Lamb]

Original sin is a Catholic doctrine that they came up with not from the Bible, and there is the problem. Mary had the same nature all mankind had after the fall, this is the reason Christ came to redeem mankind and give His life for us.

No, original sin is not a Roman Catholic doctrine. Well, it might be, but what I mean is that it is not only believed by Roman Catholics. Paul, writing to Christians in Rome comparing Jesus Christ with Adam, wrote:

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” (Ro 5:19 NKJV)

We inherit sinfulness from Adam. That is why we need a Saviour.

 

[Lambano]

Paul and John's epistles were written 30 years apart. Frankly speaking, I think it is most unfortunate that Paul uses sarx as a metonym for the human sin nature. John uses sarx in a more positive Jewish sense of being a real human being.

“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." (Ezekiel 36:26)

Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
And all flesh will see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”
(Isaiah 40:5)

Note that in these OT quotes, "flesh" is a good thing. And I think the NIV writers got it right by translating sarx as "sin nature" when the context calls for it. We also need to be aware of context. Paul's concern is with the universal human affinity for sin. John's concern was with the Docetists of his time who held that matter was inherently evil and thus God could not have really come "in the flesh". Different times, different problems.

What does it really mean to "be human"?

 

[Lambano]

No, original sin is not a Roman Catholic doctrine. Well, it might be, but what I mean is that it is not only believed by Roman Catholics. Paul, writing to Christians in Rome comparing Jesus Christ with Adam, wrote:

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” (Ro 5:19 NKJV)

We inherit sinfulness from Adam. That is why we need a Saviour.

491. “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, ‘full of grace’ through God, [Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of JESUS Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. -Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.

"Stain" is holiness language. While our own personal sins do stain us and put us in a state of "uncleanness" (also holiness language), there are other things that are not sins and yet put us in a state of unholiness. (See the Levitical holiness code for examples.) The doctrine of "original sin" states that just being human make us dirty before God because of Adam and Eve's disobedience. True? Maybe. God knows.

Was Mary "holy", i.e. set apart for God's use? Certainly. Clean? Frankly, I don't see that it's necessary that Mary not carry Adam and Eve's dirt, but hey, to each his own.

 

[Hobie]

No, original sin is not a Roman Catholic doctrine. Well, it might be, but what I mean is that it is not only believed by Roman Catholics. Paul, writing to Christians in Rome comparing Jesus Christ with Adam, wrote:

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” (Ro 5:19 NKJV)

We inherit sinfulness from Adam. That is why we need a Saviour.

The corrupting affects of sin on the mind and body has made many sinners, but that is not 'original sin', its much like what is passed on from breeding per se. As for Christ, He possessed fully human nature, taking on man's human nature in its fallen condition, but with uncorrupted desires and inclinations or what is really the 'Mind of Christ' available to all through the Holy Spirit.

 

[David Lamb]

"Stain" is holiness language. While our own personal sins do stain us and put us in a state of "uncleanness" (also holiness language), there are other things that are not sins and yet put us in a state of unholiness. (See the Levitical holiness code for examples.) The doctrine of "original sin" states that just being human make us dirty before God because of Adam and Eve's disobedience. True? Maybe. God knows.

Was Mary "holy", i.e. set apart for God's use? Certainly. Clean? Frankly, I don't see that it's necessary that Mary not carry Adam and Eve's dirt, but hey, to each his own.

Your reply was to my post and to Pius IX's. However, I didn't even mention Mary or the word "stain", so I am unsure why you addressed your reply to me. Perhaps I have misunderstood.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We see what the Bible says..

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The antichrist has to deny Jesus came in the flesh. Let’s look up the greek word “flesh” in the greek Lexicon and see what it can mean:

Strong’s Hebrew/Greek Concordance:

sarx: Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): – carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon:

Thayer Definition:
1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts

2) the body 2a) the body of a man 2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship 2b1) born of natural generation 2c) the sensuous nature of man, “the animal nature” 2c1) without any suggestion of depravity 2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin 2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering

3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast

4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

Now… what is our human nature? What are all human beings guilty of according to the bible? They are all guilty of SIN (Romans 3:23). Our human nature if our “want” to, or being “prone” to sin. The bible teaches that although Jesus never sinned, he became sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21). It teaches that Jesus came through the line of David (Matthew 1:1) yet David said, “Behold, I was shapen in INIQUITY; and in SIN did my mother conceive me.” -Psalm 51:5. This means that the whole line of David was a lineage individuals with a nature to sin, including Jesus. This is how Jesus, being God, could be tempted to sin (compare James 1:13 with Hebrews 4:15) because he became man, and being made into a man he had the same human nature as man… the ability to sin.

So, how does the Roman Catholic Church teach that Jesus did not come in the flesh (human nature)? Well when they teach that the Virgin Mary was sinless at her conception of the baby Jesus, they in essence teach that Jesus has not come in the flesh, because Jesus came through her lineage, and as David had a nature to sin, she also had a nature to sin. Read the following quote from a Roman Catechism:

491. “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, ‘full of grace’ through God, [Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of JESUS Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. -Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.

To say that Jesus came into the world this way, born of a virgin who was not of sinful “flesh” as we are all in our human nature, is to say he did not come in the “flesh” of sinful nature because he came through HER lineage. Think about it.

flesh means the physical body. We do not have a sinful body-= it is a body. It is the soul of man that will cause a person to sin, not their body.

Mary gave Jesus His humanity and God the Father gave Him His sinlessness.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The church of Rome denies Jesus came in the flesh

There is no church in Rome... instead there is a religious organization that teaches false doctrine designed to lead people astray authored by satan that is in Rome loudly claiming they are the "church"

All one has to do is try to find where Jesus and His Apostles taught "catholic" doctrine in God's Word and it quickly becomes evident that the so called "church at Rome" is nothing more than a satanic organization run by demons.

 

[Hobie]

flesh means the physical body. We do not have a sinful body-= it is a body. It is the soul of man that will cause a person to sin, not their body.

Mary gave Jesus His humanity and God the Father gave Him His sinlessness.

When a man see's a woman or feels her touch or she strokes his hair, is it only the 'soul' that is affected, I would say not my brother. Its a lot more complex and the body can take you down a path that you may not want, talk to those taking steroids and going into a 'roid rage'.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

When a man see's a woman or feels her touch or she strokes his hair, is it only the 'soul' that is affected, I would say not my brother. Its a lot more complex and the body can take you down a path that you may not want, talk to those taking steroids and going into a 'roid rage'.

Sorry, but ask a physician.

Teh body has no decision making process, only the brain and soul. "Roid rage" happens when the chemicals affect teh brain and cause reactions.

As for romantic actions? Yes the body is affected because the soul knows what is happening and the body reacts to teh responses of the soul and brain and the chemiical responses released.

If a person had a frontal lobotomy, you could stroke and caress them all you wish and they will not react.

 

[Hobie]

Sorry, but ask a physician.

Teh body has no decision making process, only the brain and soul. "Roid rage" happens when the chemicals affect teh brain and cause reactions.

As for romantic actions? Yes the body is affected because the soul knows what is happening and the body reacts to teh responses of the soul and brain and the chemiical responses released.

If a person had a frontal lobotomy, you could stroke and caress them all you wish and they will not react.

So is your brain the soul, no, look at the verse that says Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

We see even the other translations say a living creature or living being..
ESV
then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
AMP
then the Lord God formed [that is, created the body of] man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being [an individual complete in body and spirit].

His breath is what made him a living soul, a living creature. When we die, we stop breathing and we rest. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the soul is separate from the body.

A soul is a living creature, living being. A soul is the combination of a body plus the breath of life. The soul cannot exist without the body or the breath.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
Job 27:3
All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;