Lucifer's Original Rebellion

[Davy]

Your grip on the KJV is admirable but it will come with it's own set of problems . There is no "Lucifer " but there is a morning star , but oh well . We see it differently , have a good day !

Nah, it ain't got nothing to do with the KJV Bible nor any other English Bible translation from the Hebrew.

I feel led by The Holy Spirit to say this to you, and for the benefit of other brethren, just in case.

IF... you do not understand why... that idea of 'morning star' (Hebrew heylel) was used by our Heavenly Father about the devil in that Isaiah 14:12 Scripture, then that means you... are the one with the "set of problems". Why do I say this?

Because if you do not understand that God was pointing directly to Lucifer himself with the following words, then it means you deceive yourself about just what subject God is revealing there...

Isa 14:12-15
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
KJV

That in 'red' above is God repeating what LUCIFER himself has claimed in coveting God's Throne!

When... did Lucifer first make that false claim??? Back when Lucifer originally rebelled against God in coveting God's Throne in wanting to be GOD, back in the 'old world' when he fell. (Do you really think Nebuchadnezzar was the first to claim to be God?)

The particular danger you might... be in, by not understand this:
Lucifer, the devil, or Satan if you prefer, is COMING AGAIN TO PLAY GOD, on earth, with the power to work great signs and wonders that will deceive the whole world, except Christ's very elect. That is what the coming "great tribulation" is going to be about. Many will bow to the devil playing Christ at the end of this world, and they won't even suspect it, that's how fooled the majority of the world will be. That is the "strong delusion" that Apostle Paul was warning about in 2 Thess.2.

So if the Bible student cannot figure out that God is pointing directly to the devil in that Isaiah 14:12 verse, then it shows they do not understand what the devil did to rebel originally in the first place, nor will they be prepared to make a stand for Christ at the end of this world when the devil is allowed to come to earth and do that again.

 

[Davy]

I woud have thought it was obvious from the simple text that I quoted. When God said, "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work", He was surely implying normal days of 24 hours. Surely you don't think God was telling the Israelites that they should work for six thousand years and then cease from work for a thousand years!

No, what's obvious is you are trying to steer away from the subject of those Bible Scriptures I quoted, because Jeremiah 4:23-28, and Romans 8:18-25 isn't talking about the days of creation.

If God did as He claimed and created the earth and all life on it in six days, then it is not possible for there to have been an "old world" as you think there was. Therefore God's words in Exodus 20 disprove that idea, and your interpretation of the verses that you quoted must be incorrect.

Men also claim that Genesis 1:2 "without form, and void" phrase is about the non-existing earth state of like ether gaseous nothingness, when that actual phrase in the Hebrew (tohu va bohu) means 'a waste and an undistinguishable ruin' (See Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, OT:8414 and OT:922). And in Isaiah 45:18 God said He did not create the earth tohu (translated as "in vain" in the KJV).

Then with the repeat of that "without form, and void" phrase in the Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture, God reveals that phrase linked with a time of destruction upon the earth.

You have said nothing about all that, which I covered in my posts. And I haven't yet reminded you of what Apostle Paul showed in Romans 8:18-25 about God having placed His creation in a state of "vanity" and "bondage of corruption".

But maybe, some day in the future, once you have done more Bible study, for yourself, asking God's help, then maybe you won't be so quick in wanting to follow the doctrines of men instead of recognizing these less commonly taught Bible Scriptures that I have covered.

 

[Davy]

We cannot limit God to just this world and the heaven 'atmosphere ' above it. God had a whole universe to work with, and this is all He made. Of course not, when we get to heaven we will see all the universe and see what God has made. We will be amazed to say the least...

I don't really know what your point above is, except that your view above is not Biblical. Here is why...

The universe refers to this MATERIAL DIMENSION OF MATTER which God created in the beginning.

God's Abode of Heaven existed BEFORE He created the material universe.

Furthermore, God's Word reveals that the Heavenly dimension is coming here, upon this earth. We do not go there.

Because Heaven will be revealed upon this material earth means the 2 separate dimensions being joined in the same space and time. And that... is the concept that we will then understand. At present, while in the flesh, we have difficulty understanding that.

Genesis 2 reveals that God's Garden of Eden was once here, upon this earth.

Revelation 21 reveals that the Full GODHEAD is going to return back to this earth to live with us.

The Isaiah 65 prophecies about the future new heavens and a new earth declares that we shall build houses and plant vineyards, which means living upon this earth.

 

[talons]

Nah, it ain't got nothing to do with the KJV Bible nor any other English Bible translation from the Hebrew.

If the KJV did not say "Lucifer" we would NOT be having this talk .

I feel led by The Holy Spirit to say this to you, and for the benefit of other brethren, just in case.

IF... you do not understand why... that idea of 'morning star' (Hebrew heylel) was used by our Heavenly Father about the devil in that Isaiah 14:12 Scripture, then that means you... are the one with the "set of problems". Why do I say this?

Ahh , now the devil , satan , ole slewfoot pops up ! What happened to Lucifer ?

This was not my disagreement with any interpretation offered , it is ONLY with the use of the name LUCIFER ! If it said morning star let it remain morning star and with the Holy Spirit's help we will sort things out .

You can have the last words .

 

[Davy]

If the KJV did not say "Lucifer" we would NOT be having this talk .

Well, just go on then, stay deceived about who God is actually talking about in that Isaiah 14 Scripture as a PROVERB.

 

[marks]

I woud have thought it was obvious from the simple text that I quoted. When God said, "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work", He was surely implying normal days of 24 hours. Surely you don't think God was telling the Israelites that they should work for six thousand years and then cease from work for a thousand years!

And in his very next sentence he says "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it", using the exact same Hebrew word for 'day' as He used in the previous sentence. Theefore I believe God when He says that He created heaven and earth, and all living things on the earth, in six normal days of 24 hours.

Exactly! With this simple passage God defines true cosmology.

Much love!

 

[keithr]

No, what's obvious is you are trying to steer away from the subject of those Bible Scriptures I quoted, because Jeremiah 4:23-28, and Romans 8:18-25 isn't talking about the days of creation.

My first post was simply to state why I found it impossible to believe what you believe. There was no need for me to comment on all that you wrote (pages and pages of it!). But as you keep asking I will comment some more.

Of course Jeremiah 4 is not talking about the days of creation, but neither is it talking about a time before the days of creation! It is talking about God's judgement over Israel for their unfaithfulness to God. The Cambridge Bible Notes says:

The whole may be arranged in sections, thus:​

​

(1) Jer_2:1 to Jer_3:5 Jehovah’s faithfulness and Israel’s unfaithfulness; (2) Jer_3:6 to Jer_4:4 conditional offers of restoration; (3) Jer_4:5-31 impending national disaster; (4) Jer_5:1-31 the foe is at hand, Jerusalem is ripe for judgement; (5) Jer_6:1-30 the Doom: these last three sections giving a more definite description of the approaching punishment.​

Then with the repeat of that "without form, and void" phrase in the Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture, God reveals that phrase linked with a time of destruction upon the earth.

The Cambridge Bible Notes says:

waste] formless, unsubstantial. Cp. Gen_1:2. “And void” is not rendered by LXX either here or in Is., and is therefore probably a gloss from Genesis.​

Brenton's Septuagint translates it as:

(23) I looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was not; and to the sky, an there was no light in it.​

This was Jeremiah's vision of the imminent destruction of Judah. As the TLV translates it, Jeremiah 4:

(5) Declare in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem, saying: “Blow the shofar in the land!” Cry aloud and say, “Assemble yourselves! Let us go into the fortified cities.”​

(6) “Raise a banner toward Zion! Take refuge! Do not delay! For I bring calamity from the north, even terrible destruction.​

(7) A lion has come up from his thicket—a destroyer of nations has set out. He has left his place to make your land a wasteland. Your cities will lie in ruins, without inhabitant.​

(23) I looked at the earth and behold, it was deserted and desolate, and at the heavens and they had no light.​

(24) I looked at the mountains—behold, they were shaking and all the hills swaying to and fro.​

(25) I looked and behold, no people! All the birds of the sky had fled.​

(26) I looked and behold, the fruitful field was a wilderness and all of its cities were in ruins before Adonai, before His fierce anger.​

(27) For thus says Adonai, “The whole land will be wasteland, yet I will not totally destroy it.​

(28) Therefore, the earth will mourn and the heavens above grow black. For I have spoken, I have purposed, nor will I relent, nor turn from it.​

(29) At the sound of horsemen and archers the whole city flees. They go into the thickets and climb up on the rocks. The whole city is deserted—no one dwells in it.​

This is referring to the incoming invasion of Judah and Jerusalem by an army - it's not referring to a destroying flood.

You have said nothing about all that, which I covered in my posts. And I haven't yet reminded you of what Apostle Paul showed in Romans 8:18-25 about God having placed His creation in a state of "vanity" and "bondage of corruption".

The passage in Romans 8 is about the future glory of the resurrected Church. You wrote:

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

The creation was made subject to vanity?? When did that happen to God's creation??

It happened at Genesis 1:2 when God ended that 'old world' when Lucifer first rebelled and fell.

I disagree. The creation (mankind) was made subject to vanity (Greek word mataiotēs, meaning evil - moral depravity, futile, worthless) after the fall of Adam and Eve. It's absurd to think that is referring to a time before God created Adam, who was created perfect.

 

[Davy]

My first post was simply to state why I found it impossible to believe what you believe. There was no need for me to comment on all that you wrote (pages and pages of it!). But as you keep asking I will comment some more.

Nah... your post was you attempting to use the 'idea'... of the six days of Genesis 1 to disprove what I showed from Bible Scripture, a feat that is impossible to do. So, nice try, but you haven't shown anything to change the meaning of the Scripture evidence that I showed in my posts, and it saddens me to hear you keep trying to insert your six day theories into this when it doesn't disprove what I showed from those Bible Scriptures which you... have said NOTHING about.

So far here, you appear to be just 'mouthing' because you must like to hear yourself talk, and you want others to listen to you. You haven't offered any Biblical evidence to the table based on the Scriptures I covered, instead, you just keep avoiding them.

Of course Jeremiah 4 is not talking about the days of creation, but neither is it talking about a time before the days of creation! It is talking about God's judgement over Israel for their unfaithfulness to God. The Cambridge Bible Notes says:

The Cambridge Bible Notes?? Don't need them. I use BibleSoft software which has MANY scholarly Bible study tools. Which ones would YOU like me to quote to you about the Hebrew tohu va bohu phrase mistranslated to "without form, and void" in the KJV Bible?

Moreover, there you go TRYING to bring in that six days of creation idea again when the Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 1:2 does not mention... the start of a particular 'day' or morning.

Gen 1:1-2
1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
KJV

Where... do you see the idea of a Day OR Morning in the above Scripture??

You do not! What is there, is in that verse 1 God's Word is declaring His CREATION IN THE BEGINNING. No man knows how far back in time that original creating was.

Then in verse 2, per the HEBREW, the earth is shown having become a waste and an undistinguishable ruin! Got it?


Genesis 1:1 = God first creating the Heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 = the earth became... a waste and a ruin. In other words SOMETHING HAPPENED in between those 2 verses.

 

[keithr]

So far here, you appear to be just 'mouthing' because you must like to hear yourself talk, and you want others to listen to you.

If you can't respond in a civil manner then I will not continue with the discussion. Remember the forum rules:

• No Flaming, Goading or Harassment. All members should be treated with the utmost respect and courtesy at all times following the rules of civil discourse.
• No insults are allowed. Included in this are all forms of flaming, harassment, and trolling/goading as determined at the discretion of the Christianity Board Team. Trolling/Goading is defined as repeated attempts through the use of images, cartoons, smileys or text that is designed to be explicitly demeaning, patronizing, embarrassing, or otherwise upsetting to a member or group of members in the community.

[*]Do not attack another member's character in any way. Address the post content, not the member's character, family, denominational affiliation or any other subject that may be perceived as a personal attack by the Christianity Board team and is not germane to the topic or post at hand.​

And also, considering the five posts that it took you to write your original message:

No flooding the forum. If your post stretches over multiple screens it may be too long. Needing to sift through an essay about someone's theology to figure out their point hinders discussion. Excessively long or successive posts may be subject to deletion at the moderator's discretion.​

Gen 1:1-2
1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
KJV

Where... do you see the idea of a Day OR Morning in the above Scripture??

Why do you ask? I never claimed that those verses mentioned any days. As I quoted in my first post, Exodus 20:11:

(11) for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.​

So God said that He created the earth and everything on the earth in six days, so it is not possible that there could have been an "old world" existing before the current one, or before He created the first man on the sixth day (there is a maximum of six days between the earth being created and Adam being created).

Where do you see an idea about an "old world" existing before the current one in the above Scriptures? The Scriptures say, 1 Corinthians 15:45 (WEB):

(45) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.​

If Adam was the first man, then there cannot have been any people living before Adam in an "old world".

Then in verse 2, per the HEBREW, the earth is shown having become a waste and an undistinguishable ruin! Got it?

Brenton's English Septuagint says:

(1) In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.​

(2) But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.​

Verse 2 is simply a continuation from verse 1, saying that when God created the earth it was initially featureless, desolate and having no living things on it. It was like all the other planets - having no living things and no great beauty - after God's creative work on the earth it became the most beautiful of all planets. There is not the slightest hint of God having created people to live on the earth, or of God having destroyed them, before He created Adam. God doesn't create by trial and error - He is perfect and all that He has created has been perfect and as He desired.

Genesis 1:1 = God first creating the Heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 = the earth became... a waste and a ruin. In other words SOMETHING HAPPENED in between those 2 verses.

And on that incorrect assumption you are led off on a tangent of further misunderstanding!

 

[Davy]

If you can't respond in a civil manner then I will not continue with the discussion. Remember the forum rules:

• No Flaming, Goading or Harassment. All members should be treated with the utmost respect and courtesy at all times following the rules of civil discourse.
• No insults are allowed. Included in this are all forms of flaming, harassment, and trolling/goading as determined at the discretion of the Christianity Board Team. Trolling/Goading is defined as repeated attempts through the use of images, cartoons, smileys or text that is designed to be explicitly demeaning, patronizing, embarrassing, or otherwise upsetting to a member or group of members in the community.

[*]Do not attack another member's character in any way. Address the post content, not the member's character, family, denominational affiliation or any other subject that may be perceived as a personal attack by the Christianity Board team and is not germane to the topic or post at hand.​

And also, considering the five posts that it took you to write your original message:

No flooding the forum. If your post stretches over multiple screens it may be too long. Needing to sift through an essay about someone's theology to figure out their point hinders discussion. Excessively long or successive posts may be subject to deletion at the moderator's discretion.​

So... you are LOOKING for excuses to try and use against me? That's your real strategy, isn't it? And if you can't find any, you will simply create them?

 

[Davy]

And also, considering the five posts that it took you to write your original message:

No flooding the forum. If your post stretches over multiple screens it may be too long. Needing to sift through an essay about someone's theology to figure out their point hinders discussion. Excessively long or successive posts may be subject to deletion at the moderator's discretion.​

Why don't you go complain at those on the forum that keep posting their false pre-trib rapture theory doctrine over, and over, and over, just changing the title a little. And you claim I'm flooding? You like to make up your own rules for a forum you don't own, don't you? Just admit it, you are biased against my Bible teachings, and that without your providing comment of Scripture that I post. You instead try to post IRRELEVANT Scripture in a vain attempt to change the subject, and get away from the Scriptures I post.

FYI, when I write more than one starting post when I start a thread, it is because I am covering Bible Scripture line upon line, or covering a lot of related Bible topic Scripture, and the forum LIMITS how many words in one post I can write! That means I have to continue... with more posts.

So, so sorry your eyes are lazy, and don't like to read long posts, or more than one post about a single Bible subject. You must have a difficult time reading anything more than a couple of paragraphs.

Why do you ask? I never claimed that those verses mentioned any days. As I quoted in my first post, Exodus 20:11:

(11) for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.​

So God said that He created the earth and everything on the earth in six days, so it is not possible that there could have been an "old world" existing before the current one, or before He created the first man on the sixth day (there is a maximum of six days between the earth being created and Adam being created).

And there... you go again, trying to bring in that 6 days concept when my coverage of the Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 verses doesn't include the subject of those 6 days. You not only reveal you have NO INTEREST in what those first two verses of Genesis 1 means, but you do not INTEND to be interested at all, but just want to argue about 6 days.

Where do you see an idea about an "old world" existing before the current one in the above Scriptures? The Scriptures say, 1 Corinthians 15:45 (WEB):

(45) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.​

If Adam was the first man, then there cannot have been any people living before Adam in an "old world".

IF... you wouldn't SKIP the Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 subject of the earth becoming a waste and a ruin at verse 2, then you MIGHT understand that 'old world' was NOT ABOUT a time of FLESH MAN. I NEVER said anything about a pre-Adamic FLESH RACE anywhere in my coverage of Bible Scripture. And I DID... cover the point of civilizations and nations that EXISTED in that 'old world' before... God created flesh Adam. And Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 2:7 happened long AFTER... the Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 verses.

But you FAILED TO READ what I wrote, and just ASSUMED I wrote something I did not.

Brenton's English Septuagint says:

(1) In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.​

(2) But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.​

Verse 2 is simply a continuation from verse 1, saying that when God created the earth it was initially featureless, desolate and having no living things on it. It was like all the other planets - having no living things and no great beauty - after God's creative work on the earth it became the most beautiful of all planets. There is not the slightest hint of God having created people to live on the earth, or of God having destroyed them, before He created Adam. God doesn't create by trial and error - He is perfect and all that He has created has been perfect and as He desired.


And on that incorrect assumption you are led off on a tangent of further misunderstanding!

That Septuagint version is an English TRANSLATION, and not the original HEBREW. So just to get to that Brenton English translation, it had to go through TWO TRANSLATIONS, from Hebrew to Greek, and then Greek to English.

Why don't you try the original HEBREW which uses the the phrase 'tohu va bohu' for "without form, and void", and find out what the Hebrew actually means?


Per Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

OT:8414
tohuw (to'-hoo); from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:
KJV - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

OT:922
bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:
KJV - emptiness, void.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And it is also EASY to look up everywhere in The Old Testament where that Hebrew 'tohuw' word appears, that reveals it is a word associated with something that was at one time in a good condition, that went to a ruin, or to nothing.

And per Isaiah 45:18, God said He DID NOT CREATE THE EARTH 'TOHU', translated as "in vain" in the KJV. That means He said He did not create the earth "without form" (tohu).

 

[keithr]

So... you are LOOKING for excuses to try and use against me? That's your real strategy, isn't it? And if you can't find any, you will simply create them?

Why don't you go complain at those on the forum that keep posting their false pre-trib rapture theory doctrine over, and over, and over, just changing the title a little. And you claim I'm flooding? You like to make up your own rules for a forum you don't own, don't you? Just admit it, you are biased against my Bible teachings, and that without your providing comment of Scripture that I post. You instead try to post IRRELEVANT Scripture in a vain attempt to change the subject, and get away from the Scriptures I post.

You're being adversarial again. If you can't be calm, civil, and friendly, as a Christian should be, then I'm not interested in continuing the discussion. Do you think Jesus would talk to people like you do? I don't. I won't respond to any more of your posts in this thread, so you can calm down now!

 

[Davy]

You're being adversarial again. If you can't be calm, civil, and friendly, as a Christian should be, then I'm not interested in continuing the discussion. Do you think Jesus would talk to people like you do? I don't. I won't respond to any more of your posts in this thread, so you can calm down now!

Then scoot the rebuke you need then for scooting the actual Bible Scriptures I had been covering, and your instead having come here to ARGUE over irrelevant matters.