Unravelling Revelation
- Thread starter Deborah_
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Now we come to the trumpets. They are being sounded while the events of the seals are taking place.
Revelation 8:2-9:21
Trumpets signal war and judgement. Those who hear them have the opportunity to decide whether to surrender - or resist. But before judgement is declared, Heaven pauses - in order to hear the prayers of God’s people (Luke 18:7). As we pray regularly, “Your Kingdom come,” our prayers are accumulating on the heavenly altar of incense. When the ‘tipping point’ is reached, God’s judgements will finally be set in motion…
But God won’t come in judgement without giving people the opportunity to repent. And so, throughout the present age, He gives us warnings of what is going to happen. The first four trumpets announce a succession of environmental disasters that lay waste large areas of the world and cause economic damage to human agriculture, fishing and commerce. They resemble the plagues of Egypt, and have a similar function: they demonstrate that God has the power to destroy us completely. But He is merciful - and so He holds back. Dreadful as they are, these are just warnings! On earth, these ‘trumpets’ are manifested as natural or man-made disasters. The first readers of this book would probably have been reminded of the eruption of Vesuvius; our generation has witnessed the radioactive fallout from Chernobyl (which means ‘Wormwood’). Through such events, God is speaking to us - but will we take any notice? If we don’t, worse is to follow!
As with the seals, the fifth and sixth trumpets break the pattern. The ‘fallen star’ is probably Satan (see Luke 10:18), and the fifth trumpet is the plague of demons that he will unleash to terrorise mankind. The most interesting thing about these ‘locusts’ is their appearance: from the front, they appear harmless (they look almost human) and even seductive, but their sting is literally in their tails!
The sixth trumpet announces that Western civilisation’s worst nightmare is about to come true: a barbarian invasion from the east, threatening not only conquest, but also the imposition of an alien culture or ideology. This has been a recurring event all through history (the Goths, the Mongols, the Turks, cold-war Communism, and most recently militant Islamism).
But, to John’s amazement, all these terrible warnings will be ignored. No matter what havoc and destruction is wrought upon the earth, no matter how many calamities afflict mankind, they refuse to repent! Even when a problem is acknowledged (such as global warming), no-one is prepared to make the necessary changes in lifestyle to counteract it. They may fear God’s power, but they won’t submit to His rule. And so their response to each crisis is not to abandon their idolatry, but to pursue it with even greater intensity!
Revelation 8:2-9:21
Trumpets signal war and judgement. Those who hear them have the opportunity to decide whether to surrender - or resist. But before judgement is declared, Heaven pauses - in order to hear the prayers of God’s people (Luke 18:7). As we pray regularly, “Your Kingdom come,” our prayers are accumulating on the heavenly altar of incense. When the ‘tipping point’ is reached, God’s judgements will finally be set in motion…
But God won’t come in judgement without giving people the opportunity to repent. And so, throughout the present age, He gives us warnings of what is going to happen. The first four trumpets announce a succession of environmental disasters that lay waste large areas of the world and cause economic damage to human agriculture, fishing and commerce. They resemble the plagues of Egypt, and have a similar function: they demonstrate that God has the power to destroy us completely. But He is merciful - and so He holds back. Dreadful as they are, these are just warnings! On earth, these ‘trumpets’ are manifested as natural or man-made disasters. The first readers of this book would probably have been reminded of the eruption of Vesuvius; our generation has witnessed the radioactive fallout from Chernobyl (which means ‘Wormwood’). Through such events, God is speaking to us - but will we take any notice? If we don’t, worse is to follow!
As with the seals, the fifth and sixth trumpets break the pattern. The ‘fallen star’ is probably Satan (see Luke 10:18), and the fifth trumpet is the plague of demons that he will unleash to terrorise mankind. The most interesting thing about these ‘locusts’ is their appearance: from the front, they appear harmless (they look almost human) and even seductive, but their sting is literally in their tails!
The sixth trumpet announces that Western civilisation’s worst nightmare is about to come true: a barbarian invasion from the east, threatening not only conquest, but also the imposition of an alien culture or ideology. This has been a recurring event all through history (the Goths, the Mongols, the Turks, cold-war Communism, and most recently militant Islamism).
But, to John’s amazement, all these terrible warnings will be ignored. No matter what havoc and destruction is wrought upon the earth, no matter how many calamities afflict mankind, they refuse to repent! Even when a problem is acknowledged (such as global warming), no-one is prepared to make the necessary changes in lifestyle to counteract it. They may fear God’s power, but they won’t submit to His rule. And so their response to each crisis is not to abandon their idolatry, but to pursue it with even greater intensity!
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Two verses from the old testament come to mind.
You said "they may fear God's power" but they won't submit to His rule.
2 Kings 17:33 - They feared the Lord yet served their own gods.
You said "they refuse to repent".
In Amos 4:6-11, each verse ends with " You have not returned to Me" says the Lord.
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 7,293
- 1,448
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
The trumps don't sound until after all the seals have been opened. The 7 angels don't even receive their trumps until all seals have been opened.
Also, the seals don't "take place" either but that is a whole other issue.
I have to disagree with you there.
What's the point of issuing warnings after the Day of God's wrath in seal 6?
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
The book of Revelation is NOT chronological. John writes in the past, present, and future.
Revelation 10 & 11
Between the sixth and seventh trumpets (as between the sixth and seventh seals) there are two other visions showing the same situation from the point of view of God's people.
Disasters and calamities are a rather crude means of communication; but God also speaks verbally, through human messengers. John sees an angel carrying a scroll (Revelation 10:1); its contents are no secret, so it must be the message of the Gospel. Its proclamation draws a response from the ‘seven thunders’ - but John is forbidden to record what they say. Some information is withheld from us; we have to remember that our knowledge of God’s purposes is incomplete! In the true prophetic tradition (see Ezekiel 2:8-3:3), John is then instructed to eat the scroll - to absorb God’s word and make it part of his own being. He is promised that it will be good to eat, and he’s not disappointed! Like all those who belong to God, he takes delight in God’s word; but to proclaim it in the face of opposition, and to live it out in the face of persecution, often brings more bitterness than joy. Nevertheless, John can no longer be a mere observer; he’s now an active participant in God’s purposes. There’s a sense of urgency, because we’re already in the Last Days; the End could come at any moment! (Revelation 10:5-7)
The second vision (Revelation 11:1-14) shows how bitter the task of bearing witness can be. John is commanded to ‘measure’ God’s Temple (the Church), and specifically to differentiate the holy from the profane. Only true believers (those who worship in the sanctuary) are to be counted as God’s people. For the Church is under siege: it’s surrounded by a hostile world, and from time to time that world attempts to invade it. The 42 months (or 1260 days) is 3½ years – apocalyptic ‘code’ for the duration of this present age, a time of suffering and persecution, during which the enemies of God’s people appear to have the upper hand. During this period, the Gospel will be preached to the hostile and unbelieving world (represented by Sodom and Egypt) by two ‘witnesses’, dressed as mourners (perhaps to imply that their message is a call to repentance). They probably represent the Church, empowered by the Holy Spirit (John 15:26,27). The world will rage against them, but their testimony won’t be silenced until the end of the present age. Then, as the End draws near, the Antichrist will initiate a wave of such intense worldwide persecution that the Church will be destroyed altogether. Unbelievers will rejoice at this - but their triumph will be short-lived! Every time in history that the Church has been crushed and pronounced dead (e.g. in Maoist China), it has bounced back after a short time, stronger than ever. On this final occasion, the Church’s revival will coincide with the return of Christ to rescue His people before judgement falls on the wicked. But when their faithful witness – even to the point of death – has been vindicated so dramatically by God, there will be many last-minute conversions.
Jericho was given six days of trumpet warnings; the seventh was the day when it was suddenly and totally destroyed (see Joshua 6:1-5). It will be the same for the world when the seventh trumpet sounds: it won’t be a warning but a proclamation of Christ’s victory. John isn’t shown this event, but he hears the hosts of heaven celebrating it. Earthly kingdoms come and go - and at the End, all will vanish as if they had never been. But God’s Kingdom is universal and eternal (Daniel 2:44). After this cataclysmic event, His rule will never be challenged again.
Between the sixth and seventh trumpets (as between the sixth and seventh seals) there are two other visions showing the same situation from the point of view of God's people.
Disasters and calamities are a rather crude means of communication; but God also speaks verbally, through human messengers. John sees an angel carrying a scroll (Revelation 10:1); its contents are no secret, so it must be the message of the Gospel. Its proclamation draws a response from the ‘seven thunders’ - but John is forbidden to record what they say. Some information is withheld from us; we have to remember that our knowledge of God’s purposes is incomplete! In the true prophetic tradition (see Ezekiel 2:8-3:3), John is then instructed to eat the scroll - to absorb God’s word and make it part of his own being. He is promised that it will be good to eat, and he’s not disappointed! Like all those who belong to God, he takes delight in God’s word; but to proclaim it in the face of opposition, and to live it out in the face of persecution, often brings more bitterness than joy. Nevertheless, John can no longer be a mere observer; he’s now an active participant in God’s purposes. There’s a sense of urgency, because we’re already in the Last Days; the End could come at any moment! (Revelation 10:5-7)
The second vision (Revelation 11:1-14) shows how bitter the task of bearing witness can be. John is commanded to ‘measure’ God’s Temple (the Church), and specifically to differentiate the holy from the profane. Only true believers (those who worship in the sanctuary) are to be counted as God’s people. For the Church is under siege: it’s surrounded by a hostile world, and from time to time that world attempts to invade it. The 42 months (or 1260 days) is 3½ years – apocalyptic ‘code’ for the duration of this present age, a time of suffering and persecution, during which the enemies of God’s people appear to have the upper hand. During this period, the Gospel will be preached to the hostile and unbelieving world (represented by Sodom and Egypt) by two ‘witnesses’, dressed as mourners (perhaps to imply that their message is a call to repentance). They probably represent the Church, empowered by the Holy Spirit (John 15:26,27). The world will rage against them, but their testimony won’t be silenced until the end of the present age. Then, as the End draws near, the Antichrist will initiate a wave of such intense worldwide persecution that the Church will be destroyed altogether. Unbelievers will rejoice at this - but their triumph will be short-lived! Every time in history that the Church has been crushed and pronounced dead (e.g. in Maoist China), it has bounced back after a short time, stronger than ever. On this final occasion, the Church’s revival will coincide with the return of Christ to rescue His people before judgement falls on the wicked. But when their faithful witness – even to the point of death – has been vindicated so dramatically by God, there will be many last-minute conversions.
Jericho was given six days of trumpet warnings; the seventh was the day when it was suddenly and totally destroyed (see Joshua 6:1-5). It will be the same for the world when the seventh trumpet sounds: it won’t be a warning but a proclamation of Christ’s victory. John isn’t shown this event, but he hears the hosts of heaven celebrating it. Earthly kingdoms come and go - and at the End, all will vanish as if they had never been. But God’s Kingdom is universal and eternal (Daniel 2:44). After this cataclysmic event, His rule will never be challenged again.
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 7,293
- 1,448
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
So? I can also make statements everyone agrees on like, The book of Revelation is NOT written by Moses. The book of Mark is in the NT of the bible.
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 7,293
- 1,448
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
The sixth seal speaks of the second coming prophetically. The second coming does not happen when the seal is opened.
Now we come to the first of a series of 7 visions. If there is an overall theme, it seems to be the conflict between God and Satan that rumbles through the universe - and the choice that we have to make between them.
Revelation 11:19-12:17
In Israel’s religious calendar, the Feast of Trumpets was followed by the Day of Atonement (when the sanctuary was opened). After the blowing of all the trumpets, John is able to see into the heavenly temple (of which the earthly temple in Jerusalem was a copy), right into the Most Holy Place. The Ark of the Covenant symbolised God’s holy presence; but it was also the focal point of His mercy and grace. As such, it forms the context for a series of seven visions, which explain the nature of the conflict between good and evil that characterises our present age.
The first of these visions (Revelation 12) is a re-telling of the Christmas story from a heavenly viewpoint. The woman is the nation of Israel; the twelve stars stand for the twelve tribes (see Genesis 37:9,10). As a descendant of Eve (see Genesis 3:15), she suffers what the Jews called ‘the birth pains of the Messiah’ - the centuries of anguish endured by Israel as she waited for the coming of her King (see Micah 5:3; Isaiah 26:17). For she has a terrifying and immensely powerful Enemy: Satan, the dragon, whose evil intention is to frustrate God’s purposes. All through history he has tried to corrupt and destroy God’s people, and he also tried to destroy the Messiah who came from Israel. In earthly history, this has been manifested in many ways, from Pharaoh trying to kill baby Moses (Exodus 1:22) to Herod trying to kill baby Jesus (Matthew 2:13). And who could be more vulnerable than a pregnant woman and a new-born baby? But Satan was foiled: Jesus escaped premature death, completed His mission and went back into heaven. The Jews, having fulfilled their main purpose, were once again forced into exile - but are still under God’s care and protection.
The earthly conflict has its counterpart in heaven, where war has been raging between the devil’s army and the army of God under the command of the archangel Michael (the guardian of God’s people). The dragon was the one who initiated the Great Rebellion in the beginning (Genesis 3:1). But from the moment of Jesus’ death, he and all his followers (both angelic and human) have been on the defensive. And when the Lamb ascended triumphantly to heaven, Satan was forced to descend unceremoniously to earth! (John 12:31) He is now barred from access to God’s throne room and can no longer accuse God’s people (see Zechariah 3:1,2; Romans 8:33,34). Christ’s death has robbed Satan of his power, by removing the basis for his accusations (Colossians 2:13-15).
And we’re not just passive spectators; we also participate in Satan’s overthrow, by putting our faith in Jesus and standing firm against the devil’s attacks. We may be persecuted; we may be martyred; but our salvation is utterly secure! And so we’re already able to celebrate Christ’s great victory, even while we continue to suffer in this life. For although Satan and his hosts have been comprehensively defeated in the heavenly realms, the war on earth is not yet over. Satan can still wreak havoc in this world; and his rage is all the greater because he knows that he can’t win!
Meanwhile, Israel disappears into the wilderness for the duration of the Gospel age. It’s a place of testing, but also a place of supernatural provision - and relative safety. And she hasn’t been abandoned by God; in fact, it’s there that she will eventually re-discover Him (see Hosea 2:14,15). Satan continues to wage war against the Jewish people, but finds his attempts to destroy them continually frustrated. He therefore concentrates his efforts on persecuting Christians.
Revelation 11:19-12:17
In Israel’s religious calendar, the Feast of Trumpets was followed by the Day of Atonement (when the sanctuary was opened). After the blowing of all the trumpets, John is able to see into the heavenly temple (of which the earthly temple in Jerusalem was a copy), right into the Most Holy Place. The Ark of the Covenant symbolised God’s holy presence; but it was also the focal point of His mercy and grace. As such, it forms the context for a series of seven visions, which explain the nature of the conflict between good and evil that characterises our present age.
The first of these visions (Revelation 12) is a re-telling of the Christmas story from a heavenly viewpoint. The woman is the nation of Israel; the twelve stars stand for the twelve tribes (see Genesis 37:9,10). As a descendant of Eve (see Genesis 3:15), she suffers what the Jews called ‘the birth pains of the Messiah’ - the centuries of anguish endured by Israel as she waited for the coming of her King (see Micah 5:3; Isaiah 26:17). For she has a terrifying and immensely powerful Enemy: Satan, the dragon, whose evil intention is to frustrate God’s purposes. All through history he has tried to corrupt and destroy God’s people, and he also tried to destroy the Messiah who came from Israel. In earthly history, this has been manifested in many ways, from Pharaoh trying to kill baby Moses (Exodus 1:22) to Herod trying to kill baby Jesus (Matthew 2:13). And who could be more vulnerable than a pregnant woman and a new-born baby? But Satan was foiled: Jesus escaped premature death, completed His mission and went back into heaven. The Jews, having fulfilled their main purpose, were once again forced into exile - but are still under God’s care and protection.
The earthly conflict has its counterpart in heaven, where war has been raging between the devil’s army and the army of God under the command of the archangel Michael (the guardian of God’s people). The dragon was the one who initiated the Great Rebellion in the beginning (Genesis 3:1). But from the moment of Jesus’ death, he and all his followers (both angelic and human) have been on the defensive. And when the Lamb ascended triumphantly to heaven, Satan was forced to descend unceremoniously to earth! (John 12:31) He is now barred from access to God’s throne room and can no longer accuse God’s people (see Zechariah 3:1,2; Romans 8:33,34). Christ’s death has robbed Satan of his power, by removing the basis for his accusations (Colossians 2:13-15).
And we’re not just passive spectators; we also participate in Satan’s overthrow, by putting our faith in Jesus and standing firm against the devil’s attacks. We may be persecuted; we may be martyred; but our salvation is utterly secure! And so we’re already able to celebrate Christ’s great victory, even while we continue to suffer in this life. For although Satan and his hosts have been comprehensively defeated in the heavenly realms, the war on earth is not yet over. Satan can still wreak havoc in this world; and his rage is all the greater because he knows that he can’t win!
Meanwhile, Israel disappears into the wilderness for the duration of the Gospel age. It’s a place of testing, but also a place of supernatural provision - and relative safety. And she hasn’t been abandoned by God; in fact, it’s there that she will eventually re-discover Him (see Hosea 2:14,15). Satan continues to wage war against the Jewish people, but finds his attempts to destroy them continually frustrated. He therefore concentrates his efforts on persecuting Christians.
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 7,293
- 1,448
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
They are linked but there is a difference between a description of future events and a description of those events happening right then and there. In all the seals, we see what will come and happen in the future. None of those events happen right when each seal is opened. Jesus stays in heaven to open the last seal. He does not open seal 6 and then leave to do the events it describes.
I think I see the problem: we're not on the same page at all. You seem to regard the opening of the seals as literal events taking place in a particular location (heaven) at particular points in time. I see them as pictorial metaphors; it's a vision, not a documentary.
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 7,293
- 1,448
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
The seals are literal upon a literal scroll and he grabbed this scroll from his father, all literal events. The important thing here is knowing the events of each seal were visions of things happening in the future, not events that happened immediately when each seal was opened.
The second and third visions: the two beasts come onto the stage!
Revelation 13
In the second vision (Revelation 13:1-10), the sea represents humanity as a whole: restless, chaotic, and unstable. Out of it, summoned by the dragon, comes a massive and terrifying Beast, like the four beasts of Daniel’s vision (whose characteristics it combines - including all their heads and horns) (see Daniel 7:2-7). It appears to represent worldly power, which operates according to devilish principles. The Beast’s seven heads indicate that it has many ‘incarnations’: political fashions come and go, but the same potential for tyranny underlies them all, and the overthrow of one overlord merely makes way for the next. In whatever form it takes, the Beast opposes God’s way of righteousness and claims absolute authority over human behaviour. Its final climactic manifestation will be the Antichrist, who will not only exceed all other rulers in his blasphemous arrogance, but will gain control over the whole world (II Thessalonians 2:3,4). But the true Church can never be allied with the Beast! Thus the world is divided into two camps: those who worship the Beast, and those who follow the Lamb. There will be no salvation and no future for those who follow the Beast; they are doomed to slavery and death. Christians are safe - but only if we keep ourselves separate from the world-system. We mustn’t even use the methods of the Beast! We are called not to violent rebellion, but to patient endurance.
The third vision (Revelation 13:11-18) reveals that the Beast is not alone. Most tyrannies are underpinned and legitimised by some kind of false religion or ideology, which is a Satanic beast in its own right! John’s first readers were only too well aware of the growing power and influence of the imperial cult in Asia Minor. But the second beast has taken many other forms since then - some bearing a superficial resemblance to Christianity. However, it’s a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” (Matthew 7:15), and it draws people away from God and into the secular world-system. Satan does his work of deception by copying what God does. So the first Beast will be presented as the saviour of the world, in a deliberate parody of Christ. And the second beast will perform convincing miracles that will mimic the work of the Holy Spirit. Thus the dragon and the two beasts form a kind of alternative, unholy trinity. But the only people who will be deceived will be those who have in their hearts already rejected the true God. Those who refuse to worship the Beast will be vilified and ostracised. For just as God’s people are ‘labelled’ with the seal of the Spirit (see Revelation 7:3,4), so the followers of the Beast are ‘labelled’ with the name of the Beast. The two marks are mutually exclusive, so it will be obvious whose side each person is on! Eventually, only those who conform will be able to operate in the public sphere, and so the truth will be forced into hiding. Christians therefore need wisdom - and we need it first and foremost in order to discern those occasions when the state has crossed the line and become demonic.
The Beast is not named, because it has so many manifestations, but its name can be represented by a number (under the rules of Hebrew gematria). In John’s day, 666 almost certainly stood for Nero Caesar – but it also stands for every other tyrant in the history of the world. “One of the lessons of church history is that the letters of anyone’s name can add up to 666 if you try hard enough.” (S Holmes) But in fact, “666” isn’t the clue to the puzzle but the answer! “6” is one less than ‘7” (the “perfect” number); it’s therefore appropriate to use it (in triplicate) to represent Satan’s unsuccessful attempt to rival the Triune God.
Revelation 13
In the second vision (Revelation 13:1-10), the sea represents humanity as a whole: restless, chaotic, and unstable. Out of it, summoned by the dragon, comes a massive and terrifying Beast, like the four beasts of Daniel’s vision (whose characteristics it combines - including all their heads and horns) (see Daniel 7:2-7). It appears to represent worldly power, which operates according to devilish principles. The Beast’s seven heads indicate that it has many ‘incarnations’: political fashions come and go, but the same potential for tyranny underlies them all, and the overthrow of one overlord merely makes way for the next. In whatever form it takes, the Beast opposes God’s way of righteousness and claims absolute authority over human behaviour. Its final climactic manifestation will be the Antichrist, who will not only exceed all other rulers in his blasphemous arrogance, but will gain control over the whole world (II Thessalonians 2:3,4). But the true Church can never be allied with the Beast! Thus the world is divided into two camps: those who worship the Beast, and those who follow the Lamb. There will be no salvation and no future for those who follow the Beast; they are doomed to slavery and death. Christians are safe - but only if we keep ourselves separate from the world-system. We mustn’t even use the methods of the Beast! We are called not to violent rebellion, but to patient endurance.
The third vision (Revelation 13:11-18) reveals that the Beast is not alone. Most tyrannies are underpinned and legitimised by some kind of false religion or ideology, which is a Satanic beast in its own right! John’s first readers were only too well aware of the growing power and influence of the imperial cult in Asia Minor. But the second beast has taken many other forms since then - some bearing a superficial resemblance to Christianity. However, it’s a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” (Matthew 7:15), and it draws people away from God and into the secular world-system. Satan does his work of deception by copying what God does. So the first Beast will be presented as the saviour of the world, in a deliberate parody of Christ. And the second beast will perform convincing miracles that will mimic the work of the Holy Spirit. Thus the dragon and the two beasts form a kind of alternative, unholy trinity. But the only people who will be deceived will be those who have in their hearts already rejected the true God. Those who refuse to worship the Beast will be vilified and ostracised. For just as God’s people are ‘labelled’ with the seal of the Spirit (see Revelation 7:3,4), so the followers of the Beast are ‘labelled’ with the name of the Beast. The two marks are mutually exclusive, so it will be obvious whose side each person is on! Eventually, only those who conform will be able to operate in the public sphere, and so the truth will be forced into hiding. Christians therefore need wisdom - and we need it first and foremost in order to discern those occasions when the state has crossed the line and become demonic.
The Beast is not named, because it has so many manifestations, but its name can be represented by a number (under the rules of Hebrew gematria). In John’s day, 666 almost certainly stood for Nero Caesar – but it also stands for every other tyrant in the history of the world. “One of the lessons of church history is that the letters of anyone’s name can add up to 666 if you try hard enough.” (S Holmes) But in fact, “666” isn’t the clue to the puzzle but the answer! “6” is one less than ‘7” (the “perfect” number); it’s therefore appropriate to use it (in triplicate) to represent Satan’s unsuccessful attempt to rival the Triune God.
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 7,293
- 1,448
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I would like to clarify a couple of things about the meaning of 'Antichrist'.
Before we look at the antichrist, I want to look at the real Christ. Who is He? Let us go to the scriptures to find out what and Who He claimed to be.
Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
The temple, the priesthood, and the religious system of the Jewish nation go hand in hand. It was the mainstay and focal point of the life of Israel. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater. Greater even than the very High priest who no doubt would take great interest in hearing a report of these words. Greater even than the very law of God enshrined within. (Or at least it used to be). Only one person can be greater than any law of God, and that is the lawgiver.
38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Jonah was the most powerful and successful of all OT prophets. In all 40 odd chapters of Jeremiah, there is no record of anyone at anytime taking the slightest bit of notice of anything Jeremiah said. Yet Jonah, on the strength of just one or two sermons, converted an entire city of the children of Ishmael totaling maybe 60,000 people. Nineveh. By any standards, that has got to be recorded as a very successful evangelistic campaign. Yet Jesus claimed to be a greater prophet than Jonah.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Solomon was the wisest and wealthiest and most successful of any ruler of the ancient world. Yet Jesus claimed to be a greater King even than Solomon.
In the three startling claims as shown above, we have before us the threefold ministry of Jesus.
A. Priest,
B. Prophet, and
C. King.
It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically. Anti- as in antichrist, according to Strong's concordance, and like other words having the prefix 'anti', means at it's most basic form "in the room of", "instead of", or "in the place of".
In other words, 'antichrist' stands as a substitute. We all know that Satan works by deception. Yet many would claim the 'antichrist' will be one who will charge in on a black horse guns blazing with fury and hatred directed at all things Christian and opposing with great force the church. Pray tell me, how will the world be deceived by such a tactic as this?
In 2 Thess. 2:1 we are told that there was to be a falling away first, which will reveal the antichrist, or as Paul describes him, the man of sin or son of perdition. Now falling away in this instance is a falling into apostasy; divorce.
Any divorce necessitates a prior favourable relationship. The only other example of a 'son of perdition' is Judas Iscariot. Did Judas openly and with force oppose Christ? Did he attack His teachings and disagree with Jesus's claims to divinity? Did he argue and debate everything Jesus stood for and seek the destruction of His followers? No. Not by any means. Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. He betrayed Him with an act of apparent love, fellowship, and friendship. He undermined and betrayed Jesus at the same time as claiming Him to be his friend!! This squares perfectly with the meaning of antichrist. Also, he is not primarily an opposer, but a subtle imposter. A counterfeit. An imposter of Jesus Christ. A false copy, or forgery of the true.
Antichrist is therefore a person or power who impersonates the offices of
A. Priesthood,
B. the Prophet or spokesmanship, and
C. the Kingly rule of Christ.
The office that ministers for God, speaks for God, and rules for God.
Satan has many counterfeits. Now counterfeits are almost identical to the true. You do not get counterfeit 99$ notes. You get counterfeit 100$ notes. And unless you get trained and disciplined to know intimately the true 100$ note, you will not recognise the false. It has been estimated that every person in America who has regularly handled 100$ notes, has had pass through their hands a counterfeit at least 4 times a year! And not known it!!!! Unless you are intimately acquainted with the true Jesus, how will you recognise the counterfeit?
So how does Antichrist counterfeit the threefold ministry of the true Christ, as Priest, Prophet and King? Is there an entity in the world today who claims to do just this? Is there one like Judas who is betraying the Master with a kiss, all the while claiming to be a friend? Is there in the world today a religious system or religious ruler who claims to be the earthly representative of Christ as His priest, claiming to be a mediator between God and man? Claiming to forgive sin even?
Does this entity also claim the prerogatives of a prophet? Does it claim to speak for God in spiritual matters? Does it claim to stand as Gods spokesman on earth and claim that only through it's authority can salvation be found?
And finally, does this entity also claim to be a king? Does it claim authority as a secular power? Does it exercise authority and power within the auspices of a church/state relationship?
I think, if you were being honest, you all know the answer is yes.
There is an entity in the world today who claims all the above Godly prerogatives which belong only to Jesus Christ. Priest, prophet and king.This entity has set itself up as counterfeit and thus can be affirmatively identified as the antichrist, the impostor and impersonator of the true. Not just one antichrist among many, but the very Antichrist himself who was spoken of in prophecy as Daniel 7's little horn, Daniel 8's horn in its second phase, the king of the north in Daniel 11, the man of sin in Thessalonians, the first beast of Revelation 13.
And this entity can be found in the Roman Catholic church system.
In Roman Catholic theology is also the embedded principle of 'replacement' or 'displacement' of Jesus.The entire sacramental system is based on the premise that only through participation in the sacraments as administered by Rome, can anyone hope for eternal life. Rome does not recognise any path to eternity apart from that which she has ordained through the priesthood under the headship of the Roman bishop. Thus Rome has implemented a system of works that men must do, or tasks that men must accomplish, be it confession to a priest, penance, participation in mass, partaking of the Eucharist, pilgrimages to shrines or basilicas, recitation of the rosary, or prayers to Mary or the saints and many other 'religious' acts, all for the purpose of salvation. The Protestant principle of 'sola fide', faith only, is anathema to Rome.
And many other false doctrines of Rome are replacements for the true Christ, and exalting either themselves or their church as the final arbiter and judge of who is saved and who is lost.
Before we look at the antichrist, I want to look at the real Christ. Who is He? Let us go to the scriptures to find out what and Who He claimed to be.
Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
The temple, the priesthood, and the religious system of the Jewish nation go hand in hand. It was the mainstay and focal point of the life of Israel. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater. Greater even than the very High priest who no doubt would take great interest in hearing a report of these words. Greater even than the very law of God enshrined within. (Or at least it used to be). Only one person can be greater than any law of God, and that is the lawgiver.
38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Jonah was the most powerful and successful of all OT prophets. In all 40 odd chapters of Jeremiah, there is no record of anyone at anytime taking the slightest bit of notice of anything Jeremiah said. Yet Jonah, on the strength of just one or two sermons, converted an entire city of the children of Ishmael totaling maybe 60,000 people. Nineveh. By any standards, that has got to be recorded as a very successful evangelistic campaign. Yet Jesus claimed to be a greater prophet than Jonah.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Solomon was the wisest and wealthiest and most successful of any ruler of the ancient world. Yet Jesus claimed to be a greater King even than Solomon.
In the three startling claims as shown above, we have before us the threefold ministry of Jesus.
A. Priest,
B. Prophet, and
C. King.
It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically. Anti- as in antichrist, according to Strong's concordance, and like other words having the prefix 'anti', means at it's most basic form "in the room of", "instead of", or "in the place of".
In other words, 'antichrist' stands as a substitute. We all know that Satan works by deception. Yet many would claim the 'antichrist' will be one who will charge in on a black horse guns blazing with fury and hatred directed at all things Christian and opposing with great force the church. Pray tell me, how will the world be deceived by such a tactic as this?
In 2 Thess. 2:1 we are told that there was to be a falling away first, which will reveal the antichrist, or as Paul describes him, the man of sin or son of perdition. Now falling away in this instance is a falling into apostasy; divorce.
Any divorce necessitates a prior favourable relationship. The only other example of a 'son of perdition' is Judas Iscariot. Did Judas openly and with force oppose Christ? Did he attack His teachings and disagree with Jesus's claims to divinity? Did he argue and debate everything Jesus stood for and seek the destruction of His followers? No. Not by any means. Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. He betrayed Him with an act of apparent love, fellowship, and friendship. He undermined and betrayed Jesus at the same time as claiming Him to be his friend!! This squares perfectly with the meaning of antichrist. Also, he is not primarily an opposer, but a subtle imposter. A counterfeit. An imposter of Jesus Christ. A false copy, or forgery of the true.
Antichrist is therefore a person or power who impersonates the offices of
A. Priesthood,
B. the Prophet or spokesmanship, and
C. the Kingly rule of Christ.
The office that ministers for God, speaks for God, and rules for God.
Satan has many counterfeits. Now counterfeits are almost identical to the true. You do not get counterfeit 99$ notes. You get counterfeit 100$ notes. And unless you get trained and disciplined to know intimately the true 100$ note, you will not recognise the false. It has been estimated that every person in America who has regularly handled 100$ notes, has had pass through their hands a counterfeit at least 4 times a year! And not known it!!!! Unless you are intimately acquainted with the true Jesus, how will you recognise the counterfeit?
So how does Antichrist counterfeit the threefold ministry of the true Christ, as Priest, Prophet and King? Is there an entity in the world today who claims to do just this? Is there one like Judas who is betraying the Master with a kiss, all the while claiming to be a friend? Is there in the world today a religious system or religious ruler who claims to be the earthly representative of Christ as His priest, claiming to be a mediator between God and man? Claiming to forgive sin even?
Does this entity also claim the prerogatives of a prophet? Does it claim to speak for God in spiritual matters? Does it claim to stand as Gods spokesman on earth and claim that only through it's authority can salvation be found?
And finally, does this entity also claim to be a king? Does it claim authority as a secular power? Does it exercise authority and power within the auspices of a church/state relationship?
I think, if you were being honest, you all know the answer is yes.
There is an entity in the world today who claims all the above Godly prerogatives which belong only to Jesus Christ. Priest, prophet and king.This entity has set itself up as counterfeit and thus can be affirmatively identified as the antichrist, the impostor and impersonator of the true. Not just one antichrist among many, but the very Antichrist himself who was spoken of in prophecy as Daniel 7's little horn, Daniel 8's horn in its second phase, the king of the north in Daniel 11, the man of sin in Thessalonians, the first beast of Revelation 13.
And this entity can be found in the Roman Catholic church system.
In Roman Catholic theology is also the embedded principle of 'replacement' or 'displacement' of Jesus.The entire sacramental system is based on the premise that only through participation in the sacraments as administered by Rome, can anyone hope for eternal life. Rome does not recognise any path to eternity apart from that which she has ordained through the priesthood under the headship of the Roman bishop. Thus Rome has implemented a system of works that men must do, or tasks that men must accomplish, be it confession to a priest, penance, participation in mass, partaking of the Eucharist, pilgrimages to shrines or basilicas, recitation of the rosary, or prayers to Mary or the saints and many other 'religious' acts, all for the purpose of salvation. The Protestant principle of 'sola fide', faith only, is anathema to Rome.
And many other false doctrines of Rome are replacements for the true Christ, and exalting either themselves or their church as the final arbiter and judge of who is saved and who is lost.
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 7,293
- 1,448
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
If antichrist was a priesthood it would have been antipriesthood.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Antichrists are multiple people, in plural. Therefore the singular and future antichrist is just one person.
There were no Catholics in the time of John, so the Ac's he speaks of are other people, likely enemies of Jesus or impersonators and false Messiahs. There were many who claimed to be the promised Messiah. So the singular Ac that wasn't there yet would be the culmination of these types of people, and the last of them, the actual fulfillment of the AC type of person. We see a singular, evil ruler type person in many writings, like Daniel's little horn, Paul's man of sin and Revelation's false prophet. These surely are who John called Antichrist in the singular.
The only organization that would be Ac in nature would be the ten horned beast which is a kingdom composed of ten smaller kingdoms in both Daniel and Rev, and a religious organization in symbolic female form, Babylon. Neither of those are Rome or the RCC but both should be recognized and earlier shadow types of what is coming.
Right. Next go to these three passages to understand what Christ is associated as...
John 12:13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
So, Christ is considered the messiah and the King of Israel.
The person who becomes the Antichrist does so by being anointed the King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah by the false prophet - who the Jews will initially think is Elijah.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
You have been told previously, but you blindly continue to go on down the same old deluded road. Biblical Israel is no longer the local literal nation in the middle east. Biblical Israel in the NT is still God's people, but I'm the form of a spiritual global ekklesia, the church. You are looking in the wrong place, and it was the true antichrist that first led futurists down the rabbit hole.
Similar threads
