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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, but he also talks about them being joined together as one, which is a concept taught elsewhere in scripture as well (Jew and Gentile believers being joined together as one body of Christ with no difference between the Jew and the Gentile). Why do you not say anything about that?
Yes, He does. Not the nation of Israel, of course. That depends on who you physically descend from. But, He considers saved Gentiles to be part of Spiritual Israel (the Israel of God). You don't understand that Jew and Gentile believers are joined together in spiritual Israel (the Israel of God) as we can see here:
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
In Old Testament times, Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise". But because of "the blood of Christ" Gentile believers and Israelite believers were "made both one" being brought together "in one body by the cross". So, NOW Gentile believers "are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens" with Israelite believers in the Spiritual Israel of God.
Gentile believers are part of Spiritual Israel because the qualifications for that are to be a child of God and of the promise, as both Jew and Gentile believers are.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
This passage indicates that those who are part of Spiritual Israel are those who are the children of God which are those who are the children of the promise and counted as Abraham's seed.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
We can see here who are the children of God and children of the promise who are counted as Abraham's seed. All Jew and Gentile believers who are "one in Christ Jesus".
I prefer, in order, the ESV, the NASB, and the NIV. But I will speak to you in terms of the one you prefer, just for your sake.
It does. In Romans 2:28-29, he specifically says who true Jews are, and in Romans 8, he speaks of all who are in Christ Jesus being no longer under condemnation, and then in Romans 9 through 11 speaks of God's elect, which consists of all those God has called and thus are children of the promise, not only from the Jews but also the Gentiles and finally how all of God's Israel will be saved.
And who are the true descendants of Jacob ~ who himself was a direct descendant of Abraham and Isaac? Do you suppose the descendants of Jacob to be different than the descendants of Abraham? Surely not. So, who are the true descendants of Abraham? Well, again:
"not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring... even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..."
...and:
"if (Gentiles) were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches (Jewish believers), be grafted back into their own olive tree... a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."
This same Paul says to the Ephesians ~ totally antithetical to the statement that "God does not consider saved Gentiles to be Israel" ~
"(Gentiles) are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:11-22).
Grace and peace to you.
Is there some particular reason why you don't want to say what translation you were quoting? Is it your own translation?
Much love!
I guess I could have been more explicit, but I'm directly quoting the English Standard Version. So, I don't "don't want to say," if that makes sense, and no, it's not "my own translation."
Is there some reason why you won't specify your own preferred translation? I mean, no matter, really.
Grace and peace to you.
I was invited to comment on a passage, so I did. Is that OK with you? Do you have any response to what I wrote? Or just, "What about this?" And shall I answer you, to have you say, "Yeah, but what about this?" It's not fruitful.
Paul wrote - inspired by the Holy Spirit to write - a passage which demonstrates God's continueing distinction between Israel and the Gentiles. And this passage even carries it's context all the way to the coming of the Lord, harmonizing with all other passages in the Bible. One example is the Olivette Discourse, as first the chosen are gathered, and then the nations are gathered, both righteous and wicked, again, maintaining a distinction all the way to the end of the age. And there are more prophecies which continue in that same way.
The only way to really have any kind of fruitful discussion, in my opinion, is to reach agreement on the sayings of particular passages, so that we can go on to harmonize these with all the other passages.
No Scripture left behind.
Much love!
So, since I answered your question, I would ask (again) that you answer my question. <smile> Is there some reason why you won't specify your own preferred translation? What is it? Again, no matter, but I'm willing to speak to you on your terms. <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
I was asking my question first. I'm aware of the reading of the text, and having seen the reading you posted, was curious. And all the more curious when you continued to not answer.
For myself, I include the translation name with my quotes, so you can see which one I'm quoting from. As you might guess, I favor the more literal translations, such as the KJV and LITV.
Mostly I just prefer a correct rendering of a passage, regardless.
You gave me a laugh . . . you'll use the one I like, just for me, really? Wow!
The thing is . . . it doesn't matter at all which translation you read from, if you don't stick with what it actually says. Though in fact some are much better to use than are others.
Much love!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That's because the Gentiles being included in God's promises was intended to be a mystery in Old Testament times. But, it's not supposed to be a mystery anymore. The mystery has been revealed.
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Yes, I guessed the KJV. I would argue that the ESV (and NASB and NIV) are not less literal than the KJV. My issue with the KJV... if it could really be called that... is not regarding its literal-ness, really, but rather that, because of the antiquated 15th century English, it is in many instances more difficult to understand correctly. It's not "wrong" or heretical or anything like that, but it is (or can be, anyway) an issue for us, with our "modern ears," because of how the English language has, um, "evolved"... <smile> ...over the last 600 or so years.
Grace and peace to you.
It's not hard to guess, I post it with every quote. For me it's more about the manuscript first, I don't regard the Alexandrian complilation to be correct, I think the majority manuscript is what is best used, which is almost identical to the received text, so yes, I favor the KJV, the LITV, YLT, ones like those.
The language of the KJV is easily learnable if one wants to. For myself, what I've come to after many years of study and comparison, reading the KJV, to me, feels the most like reading the Greek. Not that I'm a fluent Greek reader or anything like that, but as I study the Greek, and read the King James, that's what it's like.
Much love!
Spiritual Israelite, to this in the above, would be the same as where Romans begins wouldnt it?
Romans 11
[15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Isnt it the Gentiles that were grafted in among the remnant of Jews at the time then present, being children of the promise (by faith) whereas the casting away of the rest be speaking of the children of the flesh (the bondwoman and her son) which are obviously not counted for seed. But rather that which pertains to the Spirit of promise which comes by one (Jesus Christ) to whom the promise was made Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
For example here
Gen 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
This was grievous to Abraham (because he is still his seed after the flesh)
Gen 21:11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
So they would still be called "In Isaac"
Gen 21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
And then says,
Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
So even though they are not counted as the seed (being children born after the flesh) and not the promise, or the seed of Abraham which did not refered to many but one, that is to Christ (by whom) we are recconciled unto God (equally) to God by faith. It still does speak of turning ungodliness away from Jacob though and he tells the Gentiles not to be wise their own conceits concerning this, as if they were cut off and themselves grafted in and there is nothing more here to see (as it pertains to them).
Edit typos
Thats how I am catching this, show me how I might be incorrect in some way if I am.
I would easily argue that the ESV and all the more the NIV tend to be more interpretive, going beyond just a translation. I've found many many instances of that. The NASB is a very literal translation, except that it's from the critical text. The most common complaint I've heard about the NASB is that it has choppy, awkward readings. That's because it often follows the Greek word order, which is important because in Kione Greek word order is used to show emphasis, and you lose that unless that word order is maintained.
Just like the KJV with it's thee's and thou's show the singular and plural pronouns, as modern English does not. And because people don't see when the pronouns are plural or singular, they get the wrong idea about some passages. But I digress . . .
Much love!
The ESV adheres to an "essentially literal" translation philosophy, taking into account differences in grammar, syntax, and idiom between current literary English and the original languages. Even still, it emphasizes word-for-word accuracy, literary excellence, and depth of meaning.
Ah, I think that's missing my point. It's not really a matter of "wanting to." I mean, you know, if somebody is reading the Bible, whatever version, they want to, although possibly for... nafarious <smile>... reasons.
Hmmm. Okay. Sound to me like maybe that's just a you thing. <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is how I understand it as well. Amazing to me how anyone can think Paul is intending to keep Jews and Gentiles separate in Romans 11 when he clearly talked about them being grafted in together.
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. All I can say is that, yes, it does talk about turning ungodliness away from Jacob. But, that is not just some future thing as many think. That has been going on since the death and resurrection of Christ.
Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
This does not mean that God will no longer keep His promises to the children of Jacob, that they shall live in their land with God, the head of nations, from which Jesus will rule the earth.
Much love!
I'm aware of the ESV. It was my primary Bible for about 2 years or so. But it does not stay with a word for word translation, like the LITV does, for instance. And it's from the critical text, which gives a bit of trouble just with that fact.
Much love!
False. Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles throughout its history. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22.
Furthermore, Jacob's mother Rebekah was not a descendant of Abraham, thus she was a Gentile, and thus Jacob and all of his descendants were of mixed blood and thus also Gentiles.
God was not and is not a racist.
Nor can He be contorted into one.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He already kept that promise.
Joshua 21:43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. 44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
He rules the earth now, as scripture teaches. Just not in the way you think He will in the future.
Matthew 28: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
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