Schemes...

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Spiritual Israelite

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Post 195. God gave certain promises to certain people. I don't have a problem with that. I believe it's real.

Much love!
Do you have a problem with Gentile believers being fellow heirs of God's promises with those "certain people" that you're talking about?

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
 

PinSeeker

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God gave certain promises to certain people. I don't have a problem with that. I believe it's real.
I do, too, of course, and everyone here does (I think). You will probably cut me off here, as you did on the previous post ~ as expected ~ but... <smile> Yes, it was certainly real, and it was fulfilled in the immediate sense, in the days of Moses and Solomon ~ Moses only saw the promised land but was not allowed to enter into it, as I'm sure you know. But it's indicative of the true promise ~ pointed to the ultimate, true fulfillment of it in Christ, Who said ~ as cited earlier ~ "the meek shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5). And... we will. Because God promised it. And... all the promises of God have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

Grace and peace to you.
 

PinSeeker

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That isn't what I was asking him. I'm asking him where he gets the idea from that the rapture is not referenced in the gospels. The text of 1 Thess 4:14-17 does not indicate any such thing, so that's why I'm wondering where he is getting that idea from.
We agree on that, of course, and that's what I was saying to him. But that's where he's ~ mistakenly, of course ~ getting that idea from.

...my understanding of the word "rapture" is that it refers specifically to us being gathered and caught up to Christ, which 1 Cor 15:50-54 does not reference specifically.
Right; Paul uses the word harpazo in the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage. You know that, I think. That's what he's referring to,

Grace and peace to you.
 

marks

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I do, too, of course, and everyone here does (I think). You will probably cut me off here, as you did on the previous post ~ as expected ~ but... <smile> Yes, it was certainly real, and it was fulfilled in the immediate sense, in the days of Moses and Solomon ~ Moses only saw the promised land but was not allowed to enter into it, as I'm sure you know. But it's indicative of the true promise ~ pointed to the ultimate, true fulfillment of it in Christ, Who said ~ as cited earlier ~ "the meek shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5). And... we will. Because God promised it. And... all the promises of God have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

Grace and peace to you.
Here's another to chew on . . .

Ezekiel 39:21-29 KJV
21) And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22) So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23) And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24) According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

There can be no question regarding to whom this promise is given. Do you really think God's word will fail to come to pass?

Much love!
 

marks

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Anyway . . . we have in fact been all through this. No need to rehash it all.

Much love!
 

PinSeeker

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Here's another to chew on . . .
giphy.gif


Ezekiel 39:21-29 KJV
21) And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22) So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23) And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24) According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

There can be no question regarding to whom this promise is given.
Ah, so the question then is, Marks, who is the house of Israel? Just Jews? Well, in a sense, yes, but really, God's true Jews, in the sense that Paul speaks of them in:
  • Romans 2:28-29 ~ "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."
  • And Romans 9 ~ "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named'... it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring... even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..."
  • And Romans 11 ~ "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in... in this way all Israel will be saved."
As the writer of Hebrews says, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world" (Hebrews 1:1-2).

Do you really think God's word will fail to come to pass?
Nope. <smile> Regarding the land, it did come to pass AND it will come to pass. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Ah, so the question then is, Marks, who is the house of Israel?
To whom was the prophecy given? How was the identification "house of Israel" used when that prophecy was given? The answers here are simple, plain.

And no, this isn't just about Solomon conquering the land, these prophets spoke long after that. The house of Israel, the house of Judah, the northern and southern kingdoms, the descendants of Jacob, chosen by God from among all the other nations, and promised to remain a nation before God forever.

In declaring that it's not really the nation of Israel, that's just declaring God's promise false. Because He gave that promise to those people. Don't try to take it away from them, you cannot.

Much love!
 

PinSeeker

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Do you consider yourself to be either "the house of Israel" or "the house of Judah", in the way these terms were used in the law and the prophets?
Ahhhh, good question. So ~ there can be no ambiguity in this, although you will try to make it so ~ no... and yes... it depends on the sense in which that question is asked. No, in the sense of the immediate fulfillment, but yes in the sense that what God was saying through the prophets was not limited to just the immediate, but with the ultimate in view also.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Verily

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How do you guys understand these verses here


Rom.11​

[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
[3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
[4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
[5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
[8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
[9] And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
[10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
[12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
[13] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
 

marks

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there can be no ambiguity in this, although you will try to make it so ~ no... and yes...
You say yes and no, and claim I'm going to try to make it ambiguous? OK. It's actually a yes or no question. Perhaps you can give an unambiguous answer?

For instance, I'm not of the house of Judah or the house of Israel. These terms identify a certain people group, of which I'm not part, not having descended from Jacob.

Much love!
 

PinSeeker

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To whom was the prophecy given? How was the identification "house of Israel" used when that prophecy was given?
See above.

The answers here are simple, plain.
Right, but not overly so. That's the problem. Yes, the prophets only saw the immediate. But that doesn't negate the ultimate.

In declaring that it's not really the nation of Israel...
I did no such thing.

Because He gave that promise to those people. Don't try to take it away from them, you cannot.
I'm not. <smile> Never would I do such a thing.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Yes, really. Do you think I just say things like that and don't actually believe it? What you are really saying is that you think others don't believe that God keeps His promises as YOU see them. So what? Who cares? That doesn't mean that I and others don't believe that God will keep His promises as we understand them. To just say that others don't believe He keeps His promises is simply not true and is a false accusation.

Will Jesus regather the Israelites (descendants of Jacob) to Israel when He comes? That's His promise. Do you believe that?
I don't believe that He promised that. If He did, then I would certainly believe it because I believe He keeps all of His promises. What I see taught in scripture is that He will gather His people, which are all of those who belong to Him, including all Jew and Gentile believers, to Himself "in the air" shortly after which we will stand before Him when He is on His throne to judge all people (Matt 25:31-46). Do you believe that? No, you do not. So, can I then accuse you of not believing that He will keep His promise? Or can we understand that we each believe that He keeps all of His promises as we understand them, but we don't understand all of His promises the same way?
 

marks

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How do you guys understand these verses here


Rom.11​

[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
[3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
[4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
[5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
[8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
[9] And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
[10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
[12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
[13] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
There is much that can be said concerning this passage, though one comment I can make in the context of this discussion is that throughout this passage Paul maintains the distinction between Israel and the saved Gentiles, showing that God, Who inspired this passage, continued to distinguish between the descendants of Jacob, and the other nations, the Gentiles.

Which is to say, God does not consider saved Gentiles to be Israel.

Much love!
 
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PinSeeker

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You say yes and no, and claim I'm going to try to make it ambiguous?
Ah, I meant you might make my answer out to be ambiguous, when it's not.

It's actually a yes or no question.
Right, but the answer can be no and yes... depending on the sense in which the question is asked, and with both senses in view at the same time, can be both no and yes at the same time.

Perhaps you can give an unambiguous answer?
LOL! Well see??? So this is what I was saying I was sure you would do. LOL!

For instance, I'm not of the house of Judah or the house of Israel.
If you are in Christ, then you are... God's true house of Israel. You are in the Lion of Judah.

These terms identify a certain people group, of which I'm not part, not having descended from Jacob.
But you are a child of the promise.

Grace and peace to you.
 

marks

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If you are in Christ, then you are... God's true house of Israel.
However, the Bible doesn't speak that way. You may benefit from examining every place those terms - the house of Israel, the house of Judah - appear to see what they refer to. They never refer to anyone except the descendants of Jacob.

Much love!