Schemes...

[marks]

No, all, for sure; all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

That's just it. God will keep His promises. Make it out however you will, large, small, whatever, only, I believe what He said, specifically what He said, and you do not. Plain and simple.

I think the truth is much much larger than anything else, don't you?

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

That's just it. God will keep His promises. Make it out however you will, large, small, whatever, only, I believe what He said, specifically what He said, and you do not. Plain and simple.

I think the truth is much much larger than anything else, don't you?

Much love!

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

More than once upon a time there was a father who, in his will, bequeathed his son 100 ounces of silver. He told his son of the bequest. Some time later, the father decided to update his will, and without telling his son, changed the bequest from 100 ounces of silver to 100 ounces of gold. Silver was valued at $30/ounce, and gold at $2000/ounce. Eventually, the father passed away, and the time for the reading of the will ensued. The bequest to the son of his 100 ounces of gold was read, whereupon he arose in fury, and accused his father of lying and not keeping his promise. He straightway marched down to the local coin shop and demanded that his gold be exchanged for silver. The shopkeeper eagerly granted his demand.

Scripture promises 100 ounces of gold.

Dispensationalism demands 100 ounces of silver.

The choice is yours.

 

[PinSeeker]

That's just it. God will keep His promises.

Absolutely. There can be no doubt.

Make it out however you will, large, small, whatever, only, I believe what He said, specifically what He said, and you do not.

Ohhhhhh, yes I do. <smile> It's not a matter of "small" and "large" in the context that you present those two terms. I would put it more along the lines of "immediate" and "ultimate." Again, I would bring up God's Law, as I did before, to illustrate. Yes, there was the law in the Pentateuch, but really, Marks, what is ~ or rather Who is ~ the true Law? <smile> As Paul says:

• "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2).
• "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Romans 10:4).

Plain and simple.

"Plain and simple"... That's kind of... well, actually... the problem. <smile> I mean, that's what I'm telling you.

I think the truth is much much larger than anything else, don't you?

Hmmmm, interesting thought... <smile> I mean, it is what it is, though... or will be what it will be, and in a certain sense, that's... plain and simple. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Marks!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are taking it to personally.

You said "You obey the papal dogma, you are surrendering to papal authority.". You are saying that directly to me, so I thought you were talking about me. But, you were apparently speaking generally about anyone who obeys the papal dogma and not about me in particular? You should have made that more clear.

Just saying, that to worship the beast, all you need do is accept papal doctrine and authority over and above the word of God.

Is that the only way to worship the beast? You are not understanding that literally all whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast (Rev 13:8). So, how does a Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, etc. accept papal doctrine and authority?

That is a form of worship.i think you as well as I could pinpoint any number of Catholic doctrine that replace scripture and replace Christ in the minds and hearts of the Catholic rank and file. And to replace Christ is antichrist.

Sure, but you seem to not be recognizing the complete global nature of the beast. Literally all whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast, so your view of the beast is too narrow in scope.

 

[marks]

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

More than once upon a time there was a father who, in his will, bequeathed his son 100 ounces of silver. He told his son of the bequest. Some time later, the father decided to update his will, and without telling his son, changed the bequest from 100 ounces of silver to 100 ounces of gold. Silver was valued at $30/ounce, and gold at $2000/ounce. Eventually, the father passed away, and the time for the reading of the will ensued. The bequest to the son of his 100 ounces of gold was read, whereupon he arose in fury, and accused his father of lying and not keeping his promise. He straightway marched down to the local coin shop and demanded that his gold be exchanged for silver. The shopkeeper eagerly granted his demand.

Scripture promises 100 ounces of gold.

Dispensationalism demands 100 ounces of silver.

The choice is yours.

I choose to believe the Bible, all of it, and I encourage you to do the same.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Absolutely. There can be no doubt.

I'm glad we can agree!

:-)

 

[covenantee]

I choose to believe the Bible, all of it, and I encourage you to do the same.

Much love!

I choose to accept God's offer of gold over silver.

You could too.

 

[marks]

I choose to accept God's offer of gold over silver.

You could too.

That's your analogy. I'm saying, believe the Bible as written. That's the true riches.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

That's your analogy. I'm saying, believe the Bible as written. That's the true riches.

Much love!

I believe in the more excellent ministry, the better covenant, and the better promises.

Scripture describes them as more excellent and better for good reasons.

I believe Scripture.

 

[marks]

I believe Scripture.

Not all of it. We've been over this before. Do you really see a need to continue? I don't.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Not all of it. We've been over this before. Do you really see a need to continue? I don't.

Much love!

I believe in "better".

You don't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's just it. God will keep His promises.

Everyone here believes that. But, we don't all have the same understanding of all of His promises. I would never tell another believer that he or she doesn't believe that God will keep His promises. That's a serious accusation to make towards someone and is uncalled for. Just because someone may not have the same understanding of some of God's promises as you do doesn't mean that person doesn't believe that God will keep His promises. Everyone here believes that God has and will continue to keep all of His promises as each of us understands them.

 

[marks]

Everyone here believes that. But, we don't all have the same understanding of all of His promises. I would never tell another believer that he or she doesn't believe that God will keep His promises. That's a serious accusation to make towards someone and is uncalled for. Just because someone may not have the same understanding of some of God's promises as you do doesn't mean that person doesn't believe that God will keep His promises. Everyone here believes that God has and will continue to keep all of His promises as each of us understands them.

Let the chips fall where they may.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm glad we can agree!

:-)

Right, as to whether or not God will keep all his promises.

But we disagree on what some of His promises really are... the true scope of those promises, the full manifestation of them. You say they are limited with regard to ethnicity and geography, among other things, and I do not. <smile> Because He makes it abundantly clear that they are not. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

I believe in "better".

You don't.

Better promises of salvation do not put the lie to God's promises to His chosen nation. This is what I'm saying. You read passages and believe they negate His promises.

God chose a certain nation, and made promises concerning that nation. People come and go, some believe, some don't, but God's promises to that certain nation stand sure. I believe that. Do you? It doesn't seem like it to me.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Words have meanings. The house of Israel and the house of Judah are certain things, they are the nation God chose from the rest. Do you believe that God chose a nation and has promised that nation that it will always remain before Him?

Those people? I don't think you do.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You say they are limited with regard to ethnicity and geography,

Post 195. God gave certain promises to certain people. I don't have a problem with that. I believe it's real.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He/She is referring to 1 Thessalonians 4. I'm quite sure.

That isn't what I was asking him. I'm asking him where he gets the idea from that the rapture is not referenced in the gospels. The text of 1 Thess 4:14-17 does not indicate any such thing, so that's why I'm wondering where he is getting that idea from.

I think he may be getting that idea from him taking 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 out of context, but I'm not sure. That passage does talk about something that will happen at the same time when the rapture happens, but my understanding of the word "rapture" is that it refers specifically to us being gathered and caught up to Christ, which 1 Cor 15:50-54 does not reference specifically. What 1 Cor 15:51-52 says is a mystery (and therefore not previously taught anywhere else in scripture) is not that we will be gathered to Christ, but rather that we will not all die, but will all be changed to put on immortality (to have immortal bodies), which includes the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain when He comes again. So, it's that we will not all die and that our bodies will be changed to be immortal that is not previously referenced in the gospels or the OT, not the rapture.

We can talk about why that's such a terrible understanding from what Paul says in that particular passage, but Marks's statement in and of itself is self-refuting. If it's acknowledged to only be found there and not in the Gospels or the Old Testament, then that is to say that the rest of Scripture fails to corroborate that understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4, and in effect refutes that understanding. God is His own arbiter, as I'm sure you will agree.

Yes, I agree with that.

 

[marks]

Don't you remember, we've all been through all of this before?

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Better promises of salvation do not put the lie to God's promises to His chosen nation. This is what I'm saying. You read passages and believe they negate His promises.

God chose a certain nation, and made promises concerning that nation. People come and go, some believe, some don't, but God's promises to that certain nation stand sure. I believe that. Do you? It doesn't seem like it to me.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Words have meanings. The house of Israel and the house of Judah are certain things, they are the nation God chose from the rest. Do you believe that God chose a nation and has promised that nation that it will always remain before Him?

Those people? I don't think you do.

Much love!

If the new covenant and promises are not better, then why do they exist?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Better promises of salvation do not put the lie to God's promises to His chosen nation. This is what I'm saying. You read passages and believe they negate His promises.

You keep making baseless, false accusations towards others. You should be better than that. No one here believes that anything negates God's promises. Some of us just have a different understanding of some of God's promises than you do. What you think is promised only to those who descend from the nation of Israel is expanded to include Gentile believers as well, which was a mystery in OT times but should not be a mystery to anyone anymore.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

God chose a certain nation, and made promises concerning that nation. People come and go, some believe, some don't, but God's promises to that certain nation stand sure. I believe that. Do you? It doesn't seem like it to me.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Words have meanings. The house of Israel and the house of Judah are certain things, they are the nation God chose from the rest. Do you believe that God chose a nation and has promised that nation that it will always remain before Him?

Those people? I don't think you do.

Much love!

Jeremiah 31:31-34 is quoted in Hebrews 8:8-12 in relation to the new covenant. Do you not think that Gentile believers are saved under the new covenant? The new covenant was established by the blood of Christ and provides for salvation and the forgiveness of sins. But, you think that does not include Gentile believers?