Schemes...

[Verily]

One is not designated a sheep or goat until the final judgment... those who were sent to the lost sheep of Israel did return with some fruit...lost sheep (or goats) that were found and converted... surely the reverse would be true also? Some of those lost sheep rejected the message of the gospel and became permanent goats.
When Israel's probation ended, and the gospel was sent to the Gentiles via Paul and Peter, many of those unbelieving goats became sheep yes?

I do understand they are considered a flock

Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

And he (the lamb of God and Shepherd of the sheep) was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

It really becomes a words game (and a trying to trap ya thing) at some point as if I am disagreeing with other the scriptures. Jesus (a lamb) was sent of the Father, and he speaks of those he sends (who are obviously his sheep). Those that are God's (who belong to Him) and who would hear Gods words. Those sent by him he prayed for, and likewise he prayed for those who would believe on him through their word.

An example,

1 Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Separation as by the same

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

And Jesus is not just the lamb of God (sent by God) but the shepherd and also the door into the actual sheepfold and he says here.

I would consider them shepherds as well, which is why I brought up this some posts back hoping to get some further help, but that was to no avail.

What say you, anything on this here?

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

And he also says,

John 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Who would that be indicating?

I had to run this past AI for lack of finding much of anything or having received any answers, and AI is telling me that since Jesus is the door and the good shepherd that Jesus entered himself

Then you look at the next verse (or just follow it through) it says

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So the entire book of Revelation is timestamped as having taken place while he was writing the book?

Not what I said at all. Where are you getting that from?

Or just the parts you can't explain otherwise? Nothing was in the future to his writing?

I didn't say that at all. Looks like you are not willing to have a reasonable discussion and are resorting to nonsense instead? I expected better from you.

Revelation 17:8 refers only to his precise time?

I didn't say that at all. You clearly didn't read what I said carefully at all.

He couldn't have been writing from a perspective in the future, and referring to the past tense?
It's all well and good to believe you have the holy Spirit to teach you everything. We all need the holy Spirit as guidance, sure. But you don't think a study of history and comparing history to prophecy informs anyone about prophetic fulfillment?

It can to some extent, but to assume that literally everything written in a book like Revelation refers to a specific historical event is not the right approach to interpreting the book. Have you ever heard of the Idealist view? I lean more in that direction when it comes to the book of Revelation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You still haven't explained who the beast is. Nor have you explained what its mark is.

Yes, I did. Read post 121 again.

Sure, it's a sign of loyalty to the beast, but as Revelation 14 describes, it brings down the most dire of God's judgements, surely we need to understand precisely what it is that we may avoid it, and how? You don't need SDA teaching to understand scripture. History tells you who the beast is.

All whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast (Rev 13:8). Tell me how that can possibly describe the Papacy and RCC? How do Muslims worship the Papacy and RCC? How do Hindus worship the beast and RCC? How do atheists worship the Papacy and RCC? Your view is far too narrow.

Prophecy gives you the identifying criteria, history, often written in the blood of the saints, tells you who or what fulfilled those criteria. From there, using those same criteria, is actually quite simple to figure out what the mark is. Of course, the aid of the holy Spirit helps. But you've still got to put in the leg work by spending time studying. By digging deeper.

I believe you are the one who needs to dig deeper. Being tied to the SDA church prevents you from doing that.

 

[ewq1938]

I can certainly see them as sent sheep even as I would see Jesus a sent Lamb. I have not disagreed with the words of God posted concerning this.

I understand your game of words here for the sake of toppling an argument

I will if I believe the argument to be flawed but I have to ask questions to understand what your argument is. I know you are seeing three groups but you haven't been very clear on how that can be when Christ's brethren are also his sheep. I don't see any way around the least of the brethren being the least of his sheep, with other brethren/sheep offering help to them.

One is either a sheep or a goat, or wheat or a tare. I don't see a third group but I do see a subset of one group.

 

[Verily]

I will if I believe the argument to be flawed but I have to ask questions to understand what your argument is. I know you are seeing three groups but you haven't been very clear on how that can be when Christ's brethren are also his sheep. I don't see any way around the least of the brethren being the least of his sheep, with other brethren/sheep offering help to them.

One is either a sheep or a goat, or wheat or a tare. I don't see a third group but I do see a subset of one group.

You don't have to agree with how I might be catching the three, I did try to better explain how I was understanding each group in post #137.

Its not like I disagreed with the scriptures you posted back at me, or that I do not acknowledge the goats and sheep and these brethren of mine in the picture. I just see them as three groups (sheep/and goats/and these brethen of mine) whereas others might see two (sheep/ which are these brethren of mine and goats).

I certainly didnt intend to argue over it, just was wondering if there was anyone else who might be catching it that way.

​

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, I did. Read post 121 again.


All whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast (Rev 13:8). Tell me how that can possibly describe the Papacy and RCC? How do Muslims worship the Papacy and RCC? How do Hindus worship the beast and RCC? How do atheists worship the Papacy and RCC? Your view is far too narrow.


I believe you are the one who needs to dig deeper. Being tied to the SDA church prevents you from doing that.

You obey the papal dogma, you are surrendering to papal authority. That is a form of worship. The world may not be there yet, but is heading very quickly in that direction. If you haven't noticed that, you've been asleep.

 

[CTK]

We can go back and forth if you'd like, but I would rather put something forth very simply as to why I consider them three groups after the manner that I do using another example. Perhaps not the best example but you can get the gist of why I might be leaning in that direction.

For example, Jesus prays for these (for they are thine)

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

So there are two groups here, we have the world (which Jesus specifically says he prays not for) and for these others (who, are equals among themselves as you yourself stress) these being his brethren

And then there is another group

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word

And so "for them also" who shall come to believe on Jesus through their word (His brethren)

And Jesus prays they would all be one. He sends these firstly (having prayed for them, and those who believe in him through their word)

John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

All things being equal Jesus also said this concerning those he sends

John 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

So it would make sense to me that there are three groups,

Those Jesus (he who sanctifieth) sends, which is them also that are sanctified/ His brethren (who are sent). The world (Jesus prays not for). And those that will believe in him through their word.

Similarly, a picture of not receiving his

Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you,
It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

So it makes sense to me to see those sent (by Christ) whether they be recieved (by sheep) or rejected (by goats) to be considered three groups in a picture, where other's rejection of these brethren of mine (in whichever way) has implications in the day of judgment.

For what it is worth.... Here is a carve out of some of the narrative for the chapter 9 (Daniel) commentary. I just read your post regarding the "three" versus "two" groups issue and noticed you were referencing John 17. Please understand that this is just a small section that speaks to an issue within chapter 9, and thus, one would not be able to have all the background / supporting context for these writings.



In John 17, Jesus will look up to the heavens to pray to His Father. He is well aware of the judgment and sentence that will soon be declared against Him. These 26 verses represent His prayers before the cross and are interpreted to speak within one of three categories:

Verses 1–5, Jesus is praying for Himself.

Verses 6–19, He is praying for His disciples.

Verses 20–26, He is praying for all believers.

There does not seem to be any controversy with these verses; clearly, they come from the mouth of Jesus and reveal His love and concern for all, even though He will soon face the horrors of the cross. However, the second category of His prayers has been accepted as speaking entirely to or for His disciples. But it might be appropriate to consider an alternative interpretation. While verses 6–13 clearly speak to His disciples, verses 14–19 may not.

John 17: 14 I have given them thy Word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy Word is truth. 18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

These six verses are not a prayer to or for His disciples; rather, they speak to His ten Words. Jesus is asking His Father to keep His Word, the ten commandments, in the world and protect them from the evil one. These six statements speaks to those of heavenly origin. No one would dare argue that His disciples, Paul, and those early church followers will be with God at the end of the age, but every one of them is or was from this world. Jesus' prayer emphasizes the divine nature and enduring significance of His commandments, underscoring their heavenly origin and the importance of preserving them against the forces of evil. This highlights the distinction between the physical presence of His followers and the spiritual, eternal nature of His Word.

These verses (1–5) and (14–19) speak to those who are not from this world as opposed to those who will certainly be going to that same world after the end of time. His disciples would pass before the end of the first century AD, but Jesus would ask His Father to keep His Words on earth to be placed within the hearts of men by the coming Holy Spirit.

Jesus and His Ten Words are the two gifts given to mankind that are not of this world. After the cross, Jesus would send His Holy Spirit to ensure His ten commandments are taught, not merely by the Jews or the Apostles, but through the Holy Spirit. Gabriel’s interpretations will not use the word "like." Instead, he will be clear, speaking not in a physical or worldly manner but in a spiritual manner, which may explain why so much of the Book of Daniel has been misinterpreted. God’s ten Words will return to Him before judgment begins, signifying their divine origin and ultimate fulfillment. In John 1:1, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. His Word, the Ten Commandments will once again be “with God.”

 

[Verily]

For what it is worth.... Here is a carve out of some of the narrative for the chapter 9 (Daniel) commentary. I just read your post regarding the "three" versus "two" groups issue and noticed you were referencing John 17. Please understand that this is just a small section that speaks to an issue within chapter 9, and thus, one would not be able to have all the background / supporting context for these writings.



In John 17, Jesus will look up to the heavens to pray to His Father. He is well aware of the judgment and sentence that will soon be declared against Him. These 26 verses represent His prayers before the cross and are interpreted to speak within one of three categories:

Verses 1–5, Jesus is praying for Himself.

Verses 6–19, He is praying for His disciples.

Verses 20–26, He is praying for all believers.

There does not seem to be any controversy with these verses; clearly, they come from the mouth of Jesus and reveal His love and concern for all, even though He will soon face the horrors of the cross. However, the second category of His prayers has been accepted as speaking entirely to or for His disciples. But it might be appropriate to consider an alternative interpretation. While verses 6–13 clearly speak to His disciples, verses 14–19 may not.

John 17: 14 I have given them thy Word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy Word is truth. 18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

These six verses are not a prayer to or for His disciples; rather, they speak to His ten Words. Jesus is asking His Father to keep His Word, the ten commandments, in the world and protect them from the evil one. These six statements speaks to those of heavenly origin. No one would dare argue that His disciples, Paul, and those early church followers will be with God at the end of the age, but every one of them is or was from this world. Jesus' prayer emphasizes the divine nature and enduring significance of His commandments, underscoring their heavenly origin and the importance of preserving them against the forces of evil. This highlights the distinction between the physical presence of His followers and the spiritual, eternal nature of His Word.

These verses (1–5) and (14–19) speak to those who are not from this world as opposed to those who will certainly be going to that same world after the end of time. His disciples would pass before the end of the first century AD, but Jesus would ask His Father to keep His Words on earth to be placed within the hearts of men by the coming Holy Spirit.

Jesus and His Ten Words are the two gifts given to mankind that are not of this world. After the cross, Jesus would send His Holy Spirit to ensure His ten commandments are taught, not merely by the Jews or the Apostles, but through the Holy Spirit. Gabriel’s interpretations will not use the word "like." Instead, he will be clear, speaking not in a physical or worldly manner but in a spiritual manner, which may explain why so much of the Book of Daniel has been misinterpreted. God’s ten Words will return to Him before judgment begins, signifying their divine origin and ultimate fulfillment. In John 1:1, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. His Word, the Ten Commandments will once again be “with God.”

I am not catching what you are trying to point out here because we are likely speaking about two different things. The sheep and goats thing (I was touching on) is unrelated to the picture you are responding to (generally speaking) I used to show a point I was looking at within it. Mainly, the world (who we might lump in with the goats, who Jesus prayed NOT for) and then those whom God has given him whom Jesus actually prayed for (who we might call his his brethren, his freinds, etc) but these are one group (and being sent). But then we have those who would actually be receivers of "these brethen of mine" (who are also called sheep). So in otherwords "I pray NOT for these (my brethen/friends etc) ALONE but I pray ALSO for them (those who would be the receivers of them/ called sheep) who believe in me through their (My brethren's) word (See also 1 Thes 2:13) in the same accord. Where we can see the whole (( He )) that receiveth (( whomsoever I send)) receiveth (( me )) and (( he)) that receiveth (( me )) receiveth (( him )) that (( sent me )). Or similarly so, in Matt 25:40 I say unto you, Inasmuch (( as ye)) have done it unto one of (( the least of these my brethren )) ye have done it unto (( me)) .

Its a picture of being gathered back to God through Christ. Begins in God, who sends the Son, who is given these (His brethren, for all thine are mine). And as the Father sent Jesus, he also sends them into the world (whom Jesus prays NOT for) but he prays specifically for them who would be the receivers of the least of these my brethren (or those he has sent). Given he/Jesus (who sanctifieth) and they that are sanctified who are called brethren (as those sent) whereas the receivers of the same (sheep) or the rejectors of the same (goats) seems to fit in my estimation of things. Which is why I included another example of how the same sort of principle could be seen in Mark 6:11 And (( whosoever )) shall not receive (( you )) nor hear (( you)) when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony (( against them)) Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for (( that city))

Which I basically included as an example of showing "these" sent ones and the reprocussions of rejecting (or not receiving) them as the Lord gave every man.

I guess its neither here nor there, I just come back to it, re examine it add to it and then become curious of anyone else has been doing the same and so I will touch down on it once and awhile.

But I will leave off of it again.

 

[marks]

You don't have to agree with how I might be catching the three, I did try to better explain how I was understanding each group in post #137.

Its not like I disagreed with the scriptures you posted back at me, or that I do not acknowledge the goats and sheep and these brethren of mine in the picture. I just see them as three groups (sheep/and goats/and these brethen of mine) whereas others might see two (sheep/ which are these brethren of mine and goats).

I certainly didnt intend to argue over it, just was wondering if there was anyone else who might be catching it that way.

The fact that Jesus divides the sheep and the goats according to their treatment of Jesus' brothers means that there is of necessity 3 groups, the sheep, the goats, and Jesus' brothers.

That Jesus gathers the chosen, and then gathers the nations, this also affirms that the elect are the Jews, and the nations are the gentiles.

Much love!

 

[Verily]

The fact that Jesus divides the sheep and the goats according to their treatment of Jesus' brothers means that there is of necessity 3 groups, the sheep, the goats, and Jesus' brothers.

That Jesus gathers the chosen, and then gathers the nations, this also affirms that the elect are the Jews, and the nations are the gentiles.

Much love!

Thanks marks, at least you see three there

 

[marks]

Thanks marks, at least you see three there

Logic demands it. Not to mention the historical/grammatical hermeneutic.

Much love!

 

[Verily]

Logic demands it. Not to mention the historical/grammatical hermeneutic.

Much love!

Marks could you give me an example of this? Because I was wondering, as I was rewarding things how something wasnt fitting, and although I might not understand what a historical/grammatical hermeneutic is I am curious as to what I was coming up against (whether that is what its called).

I'm not all too smart in that sort of thing to even begin to find the right words for such things

 

[marks]

Marks could you give me an example of this? Because I was wondering, as I was rewarding things how something wasnt fitting, and although I might not understand what a historical/grammatical hermeneutic is I am curious as to what I was coming up against (whether that is what its called).

I'm not all too smart in that sort of thing to even begin to find the right words for such things

This means to interpret according to the normal use of language at the time the passage was written.

So for instance, in the first century, the Jews understood that they were the chosen nation from among all the other nations, and that the chosen and the nations signify the Jews and Gentiles.

Later Paul would use elect to signify the church including the gentiles, but that was many years later and in much different context. Proper interpretation holds to what the speaker meant when he spoke, according to the normal usage of the language of that day.

The sheep/goat judgment is one of those passages that doesn't work unless you hold to pre-trib rapture. Otherwise, you have to allegorize or otherwise change the simple statements made.

Some equate this judgment with the great white throne, however, the text says it happens when Jesus returns to the earth and takes His throne. Some make it into a parable telling us to help others, but again, that's not what it says.

Much love!

 

[Keraz]

That Jesus gathers the chosen, and then gathers the nations, this also affirms that the elect are the Jews, and the nations are the gentiles.

Chosen and Elect, refer to the same group, namely the faithful Christian peoples. Jews and from every tribe, race, nation and language.

The current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel will be gone on the Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18,
They can only come back as Christians. Jeremiah 12:14-17

 

[marks]

Chosen and Elect, refer to the same group, namely the faithful Christian peoples. Jews and from every tribe, race, nation and language.

The current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel will be gone on the Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18,
They can only come back as Christians. Jeremiah 12:14-17

Except that's not how they used the word. Just try to tell the Jews in Jesus' day that the elect people included the Gentiles, you won't get far with that!

Much love!

 

[Keraz]

The sheep/goat judgment is one of those passages that doesn't work unless you hold to pre-trib rapture. Otherwise, you have to allegorize or otherwise change the simple statements made.

Some equate this judgment with the great white throne, however, the text says it happens when Jesus returns to the earth and takes His throne. Some make it into a parable telling us to help others, but again, that's not what it says.

Matthew 25:31-46 tells a sequence of events. The separation of the nations at the Return, then the final Judgment of individuals, after the Millennium, in verses 44-46.
There is no hint of a rapture anywhere; there.

 

[Keraz]

Except that's not how they used the word. Just try to tell the Jews in Jesus' day that the elect people included the Gentiles, you won't get far with that!

Much love!

Jesus took the Kingdom from the Jews. Matthew 21:43.
They are now no different from every other people group and prophecy tells us how they will be Judged and punished, with only a remnant to survive. That remnant will be so ashamed they won't speak much. Ezekiel 16:63

Realize this: it is just to support the pre-trib rapture theory, that the Jews are believed to be redeemed after they pass they Great Tribulation. An unbiblical lie and a seriously bad false teaching.

Do you even bother to look up the scriptural support I provided?

 

[PinSeeker]

Chosen and Elect, refer to the same group, namely the faithful Christian peoples. Jews and from every tribe, race, nation and language.

Right, true Jews of God, yes.

The current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel will be gone on the Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18,
They can only come back as Christians. Jeremiah 12:14-17

Ugh. <smile>

Many of the "current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel" will stand, in the Judgment, alongside all unbelieving Gentiles, having been resurrected to judgment, and as a result of the Judgment will not enter into the New Heaven and New Earth but rather depart obediently into this eternal punishment. Having been subjected to the wrath of God, they will be consigned to this "outer darkness," this place where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth," and dwell there for eternity. They will not be back. <shudder>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[marks]

Realize this: it is just to support the pre-trib rapture theory, that the Jews are believed to be redeemed after they pass they Great Tribulation. An unbiblical lie and a seriously bad false teaching.

Actually it's because the Bible foretells this.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Matthew 25:31-46 tells a sequence of events. The separation of the nations at the Return, then the final Judgment of individuals, after the Millennium, in verses 44-46.
There is no hint of a rapture anywhere; there.

No, there isn't. However, what I stated remains true.

The rapture was not revealed until Paul, so you won't find it in the Gospels or the Old Testament.

Much love!