Schemes...

[ewq1938]

John 5
note v28 the resurrection is of the just and unjust all at the same time, at a certain hour.

No, the just rise first, then sometime later the unjust rise. Rev 20 gives the info of a thousand years happening between the two resurrections. "hour" in Greek can be any length of time so two resurrections in a little over a thousand years is still within the same "hora".

 

[ewq1938]

The 'First Resurrection' of Rev 20, is Christ's resurrection not their own separate resurrection

No. Christ's resurrection was LONG before the events of Rev 20. Rev 20 deals with a certain group of the saints who bodily resurrect as the first group to rise from the dead. Those unworthy to rise with the dead in Christ are the unjust and they rise after the thousand years.

 

[ewq1938]

Futurism and preterism are lies.

Not futurism. SDA is partial futurists anyways, LOL, because they believe in a future GT, MoB (events of Rev 13 are all future) and a future second coming and Millennium.

 

[Davy]

No, the just rise first, then sometime later the unjust rise. Rev 20 gives the info of a thousand years happening between the two resurrections. "hour" in Greek can be any length of time so two resurrections in a little over a thousand years is still within the same "hora".

Scott is correct on that point of John 5:28-29, you just have not realized it yet.

Let The Holy Spirit show you instead of listening to your flesh.

 

[Keraz]

I can't, either. It makes no sense to think that Jesus would reign on the earth for a thousand years in all His glory only to have a number of people "as the sand of the sea" rebel against Him at the end of that time. Like you pointed out, that would make His reign a failure. How can anyone accept such a thing? Do people think that Satan is really that powerful that he could change the minds of people in a short time after they had experienced the greatness and glory of Christ's kingdom for a thousand years? It's not even reasonable to think that could happen.

But that is what the Bible tells us will happen.
Rev 20 is a simple narrative, perfectly feasible and there is plenty of proofs of how Satan can quickly deceive people. Look at how quickly ancient Israel started worshipping the golden calves.

Christ triumphs over principalities and powers, He does not get beaten by them

Read Matthew 4:1-10 and see who is the Prince of this world. God has allowed Satan to deceive, in order to test their faith.
After Jesus Returns, Satan will be locked away and for the next thousand years, he will not be able to cause trouble.

 

[Brakelite]

Not futurism. SDA is partial futurists anyways, LOL, because they believe in a future GT, MoB (events of Rev 13 are all future) and a future second coming and Millennium.

That is correct. And such expectation of the future is intimately linked to the past. History repeats. Adventists don't rely on guesswork or a Christianised version of clairvoyance in order to be informed as to what is going to take place in the near future. We rely on prophecy being gradually unfolding throughout history, from the time the prophecy was given, with one or two exceptions. The fact that there are certain things yet to be fulfilled is a natural expectation emanating from from the very fact we are still here, but also

“19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. ”
2 Peter 1:19-21 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

Adventists understand the future because history repeats, and Jesus said in order to understand the future, we first need to understand the past.

 

[Douggg]

That is correct. And such expectation of the future is intimately linked to the past. History repeats. Adventists don't rely on guesswork or a Christianised version of clairvoyance in order to be informed as to what is going to take place in the near future.

Does not SDA rely on interpretations, visions, and prophecies of Ellen G. White ?

 

[Brakelite]

N

Does not SDA rely on interpretations, visions, and prophecies of Ellen G. White ?

No.

 

[Brakelite]

Does not SDA rely on interpretations, visions, and prophecies of Ellen G. White ?

I can show you from scripture, history, and current events where the world is heading, without any reference to Ellen White.

 

[Douggg]

I can show you from scripture, history, and current events where the world is heading, without any reference to Ellen White.

Ellen G. White co-founded SDA according to wikipedia.

Ellen G. White - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That aside, when Jesus returns to the Mt of Olives directly across from the temple mount in Jerusalem, who will be the beast-king individual and the false prophet individual there on the temple mount - that both individuals will be cast alive into the lake of fire at that time ?

 

[Davy]

That is correct. And such expectation of the future is intimately linked to the past. History repeats. Adventists don't rely on guesswork or a Christianised version of clairvoyance in order to be informed as to what is going to take place in the near future. We rely on prophecy being gradually unfolding throughout history, from the time the prophecy was given, with one or two exceptions. The fact that there are certain things yet to be fulfilled is a natural expectation emanating from from the very fact we are still here, but also

“19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. ”
2 Peter 1:19-21 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

Adventists understand the future because history repeats, and Jesus said in order to understand the future, we first need to understand the past.

What a bunch of malarkey.

The only... way to understand God's Word as written is by the help of The Holy Spirit, because God's Word was given through holy men by unction of The Holy Spirit.

It doesn't matter how much one knows about history, or how intelligent one is, without The Holy Spirit unction God's Word will not be properly understood, and thus without The Holy Spirit the default is a "private interpretation" instead.

And that is what any 'system' created by one person is, just a "private interpretation". That is why there are so many denominations today using the label of Christianity when they really are not because they are not keeping to all of God's Word as written, and thus are actually beth-avens (houses of vanity).

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV

 

[Keraz]

The only... way to understand God's Word as written is by the help of The Holy Spirit, because God's Word was given through holy men by unction of The Holy Spirit.

I agree.
But the actual problem that makes understanding difficult, is the fact of how the holy Spirit has blocked the ears and blinded, those people who have chosen to believe false theories and wrong doctrines. .....Yes Father; for that is good in Your sight. Matthew 11:25-26

It is good for God to hide His plans from all and sundry, then when things really start to happen, those who have fond imaginings of being raptured outta here and being given transformed bodies, will be shocked and terrified. Many will fail the test. 1 Peter 4:12
Jesus will 'winnow' His people, Matthew 3:12 and only those with the strength of faith and trust in Him, will survive.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But that is what the Bible tells us will happen.
Rev 20 is a simple narrative, perfectly feasible and there is plenty of proofs of how Satan can quickly deceive people. Look at how quickly ancient Israel started worshipping the golden calves.

Was that after they were with Jesus Christ on the earth in all His glory for a thousand years? No. So, that is not comparable.

Read Matthew 4:1-10 and see who is the Prince of this world.

Read Matthew 28:18 and see who has authority over him and over all of heaven and earth. Satan cannot do anything without Jesus's permission.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. Christ's resurrection was LONG before the events of Rev 20.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This verse talks about Jesus reigning and His follower being "priests of God and of Christ". And you say His resurrection occurred long before this verse occurs? Really? Have you never read this:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

You need to learn to interpret scripture with scripture. John said Jesus Christ IS "the prince of the kings of the earth". That means Jesus was reigning at the time John wrote that. And John said regarding himself and other believers that Jesus "hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father". that means those who are in Christ, including the dead in Christ, are already priests of God and of Christ and have been reigning with Him for a long time already. Revelation should be interpreted accordingly, but you don't allow scripture like Revelation 1:5-6 to help you understand what Revelation 20:6 (and Revelation 20 as a whole) is about.

Rev 20 deals with a certain group of the saints who bodily resurrect as the first group to rise from the dead. Those unworthy to rise with the dead in Christ are the unjust and they rise after the thousand years.

Jesus said in John 5:28-29 that the hour is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected, which means the dead in Christ will rise at the same hour as the unsaved. So, you need to look at Revelation 20 again and interpret it in a way that that doesn't contradict what our great God and Savior Jesus Christ taught.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ido not wish to sound like I'm being arrogant and conceited... far from it. Just grateful. Oused to believe as you guys. Or more accurately, a little bit here and a little bit there of what you guys have presented

Grateful for what you may ask. Well, the more I browse through these eschatology threads, and rediscover the abject failure of so many to contribute to the topic without using their own imagination to invent theories completely unrelated to biblical revelation, or to mix and match unrelated symbolism, and draw conclusions without foundation, makes me grateful for God grace in leading me to Seventh Day Adventist eschatology.

Seventh Day Adventist eschatology gets Revelation 20 wrong just like all premillennialists do. It does get some things right such as recognizing that all believers are part of the spiritual Israel of God, that the rapture is post-trib and that there was no gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27. But, I also disagree with the SDA understanding of the mark of the beast and with the SDA belief in soul sleep. So, since i see some false teaching in SDA eschatology, I can't agree that it was God that lead you to SDA eschatology. He's not going to lead anyone to a belief system that includes false teaching.

And you come across as if SDA has it all right and everyone else is wrong. You say you didn't wish to sound like you're being arrogant or conceited, but that's exactly how you come across here.

It's the only one that harmonises prophecy with history... is the only one that uses biblical answers to interpret symbols... is the only one that gives a clear picture of where we are in the stream of time.

Oh brother. What were you saying about not intending to sound arrogant and conceited? You didnt follow through on your intentions very well. If you really don't intend to come across that way then you need to try harder to not come across that way.

Yes I know you will all be up in arms at such a claim. That's fine. I know you mean well. Take the actual topic of this thread. Querying the hermeneutics that people use for understanding prophecy. Nearly all of you follow hermeneutics invented as part of the counter Reformation by two Jesuits, with the sole purpose of hiding the papacy in prophecy.

Not me. But, you follow hermeneutics invented by SDA leaders like Ellen G. White, so how is that any better?

The reformers had the antichrist, the man of sin, the little horn, dead to rights. They knew who it was.

There is no individual antichrist. John said there are many antichrists and anyone who denies Christ is an antichrist. Also, the man of sin is not an individual, but represents sinful mankind who rejects God and is the counterpart to "the man of God" who is "thoroughly furnished unto all good works" by "all scripture" that "is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

The reformation was built and grew and threatened to tear down the fabricated web of lies and deceit erected by the papal system. Without them, we would all be still living in the dark ages believing in the same superstitions and trusting in the same relics and rituals foisted on Christianity by that false counterfeit.

Sure, but that doesn't mean the Reformers were right about everything. Far from it.

Discard those lies of Jesuitism. Futurism and preterism are lies.

I agree with this. But, historicism is not the only alternative to those. There is also idealism and I ascribe to kind of a combination of all of those.

 

[Brakelite]

Adventists understand the future because history repeats, and Jesus said in order to understand the future, we first need to understand the past.

What a bunch of malarkey.

“And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, (in other words, when you take note of history)ye might believe. ”
John 14:29 KJV

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Jesus is not here saying to read prophecy and imagine it coming to pass tomorrow, but rather wait until it comes to pass and you shall know the truth.

“But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. ”
John 16:4 KJV

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“Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. ”
John 13:19 KJV

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Prophecy speaks of the antichrist who would come. He has come. We are also told that the leopard doesn't, cannot, change its spots... it's character. So we know from history the practise and custom of the Antichrist leopard like beast, thus the past informs is of the how it will behave in the future.
As for your trusting in the holy Spirit to inform you of the understanding of Scripture, you are talking to the choir. I said and agreed with you in a post above, even quoting the same passage as yourself.
Which leaves me wondering. Why haven't you already recognised the antichrist seeing he's been here for around 1500 years, and his philosophy for even longer, if the holy Spirit is your teacher? Why are you looking elsewhere for him in the future, if he's already leaning over your back fence inviting you to his next street party?

 

[Brakelite]

Oh brother. What were you saying about not intending to sound arrogant and conceited?

Yeah, truth sounds arrogant to people sometimes.

 

[Brakelite]

There is no individual antichrist. John said there are many antichrists and anyone who denies Christ is an antichrist. Also, the man of sin is not an individual, but represents sinful mankind who rejects God and is the counterpart to "the man of God" who is "thoroughly furnished unto all good works" by "all scripture" that "is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

The criteria in Daniel and Revelation concerning the little horn, man of sin, antichrist, beast etc, when everything is taken into consideration, demand a long surviving institution. Growing out of the western pagan Roman Empire, surviving a potential mortal wound along the way, yet still being here at the second coming, requires an existence of a minimum of 1500 years or more. Are you familiar with the SDA reasoning behind their identification of the Antichrist and its historical relevance to the reformation?

Not me. But, you follow hermeneutics invented by SDA leaders like Ellen G. White, so how is that any better?

As I said previously, historicism as a hermeneutic for arising prophecy had been around since the earliest centuries, and had been constantly used by Bible scholars ever since. Until the counter Reformation. Then most adopted the Catholic counterfeits.

And you come across as if SDA has it all right and everyone else is wrong

Oh, I'm sure we'll be surprised by some developments that take place in the world, but I would remind you that our general eschatological understanding of the roles of the major players in the world of religion and politics has been only reaffirmed and accentuated since we first became a denomination in the 1860s. There has been nothing in current events or the tendency of movements over the decades to give rise to any consideration of revision of our major talking points.
One of our most popular publications, The Great Controversy, is more relevant today that it was when first published in 1888.

Remember, Trump loves the Pope, and was educated by Jesuits. Let me quote...
The Roman Catholic Church, with all its ramifications throughout the world, forms one vast organization under the control, and designed to serve the interests, of the papal see. Its millions of communicants, in every country on the globe, are instructed to hold themselves as bound in allegiance to the pope. Whatever their nationality or their government, they are to regard the authority of the church as above all other. Though they may take the oath pledging their loyalty to the state, yet back of this lies the vow of obedience to Rome, absolving them from every pledge inimical to her interests.
History testifies of her artful and persistent efforts to insinuate herself into the affairs of nations; and having gained a foothold, to further her own aims, even at the ruin of princes and people. In the year 1204, Pope Innocent III extracted from Peter II, king of Arragon, the following extraordinary oath: "I, Peter, king of Arragonians, profess and promise to be ever faithful and obedient to my lord, Pope Innocent, to his Catholic successors, and the Roman Church, and faithfully to preserve my kingdom in his obedience, defending the Catholic faith, and persecuting heretical pravity."—John Dowling, The History of Romanism, b. 5, ch. 6, sec. 55. This is in harmony with the claims regarding the power of the Roman pontiff "that it is lawful for him to depose emperors" and "that he can absolve subjects from their allegiance to unrighteous rulers."—Mosheim, b. 3, cent. 11, pt. 2, ch. 2, sec. 9, note 17. (See also Appendix note for page 447.)
And let it be remembered, it is the boast of Rome that she never changes. The principles of Gregory VII and Innocent III are still the principles of the Roman Catholic Church. And had she but the power, she would put them in practice with as much vigor now as in past centuries. Protestants little know what they are doing when they propose to accept the aid of Rome in the work of Sunday exaltation. While they are bent upon the accomplishment of their purpose, Rome is aiming to re-establish her power, to recover her lost supremacy. Let the principle once be established in the United States that the church may employ or control the power of the state; that religious observances may be enforced by secular laws; in short, that the authority of church and state is to dominate the conscience, and the triumph of Rome in this country is assured.
God's word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever shall believe and obey the word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution. GC 580.2 - GC 581.2

But, I also disagree with the SDA understanding of the mark of the beast and with the SDA belief in soul sleep

How can you or anyone else be so bold as disagreeing with our understanding of the mark of the beast, when you don't even recognise who the beast is? It's his mark of authority over man. His. Ask him what his mark is? As for soul sleep, for want of a better definition, I would assume you then believe the devil who said to Eve, "ye shall not surely die", and thus believe people go straight to heaven or hell and live forever only at a different address but come back for some reason to get their old bodies back at the resurrection? Yep, that makes sense.

 

[Brakelite]

There is no individual antichrist. John said there are many antichrists and anyone who denies Christ is an antichrist. Also, the man of sin is not an individual, but represents sinful mankind who rejects God and is the counterpart to "the man of God" who is "thoroughly furnished unto all good works" by "all scripture" that "is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

The criteria in Daniel and Revelation concerning the little horn, man of sin, antichrist, beast etc, when everything is taken into consideration, demand a long surviving institution. Growing out of the western pagan Roman Empire, surviving a potential mortal wound along the way, yet still being here at the second coming, requires an existence of a minimum of 1500 years or more. Are you familiar with the SDA reasoning behind their identification of the Antichrist and its historical relevance to the reformation?

Not me. But, you follow hermeneutics invented by SDA leaders like Ellen G. White, so how is that any better?

As I said previously, historicism as a hermeneutic for arising prophecy had been around since the earliest centuries, and had been constantly used by Bible scholars ever since. Until the counter Reformation. Then most adopted the Catholic counterfeits.

And you come across as if SDA has it all right and everyone else is wrong

Oh, I'm sure we'll be surprised by some developments that take place in the world, but I would remind you that our general eschatological understanding of the roles of the major players in the world of religion and politics has been only reaffirmed and accentuated since we first became a denomination in the 1860s. There has been nothing in current events or the tendency of movements over the decades to give rise to any consideration of revision of our major talking points.
One of our most popular publications, The Great Controversy, is more relevant today that it was when first published in 1888.

Remember, Trump loves the Pope, and was educated by Jesuits. Let me quote...
The Roman Catholic Church, with all its ramifications throughout the world, forms one vast organization under the control, and designed to serve the interests, of the papal see. Its millions of communicants, in every country on the globe, are instructed to hold themselves as bound in allegiance to the pope. Whatever their nationality or their government, they are to regard the authority of the church as above all other. Though they may take the oath pledging their loyalty to the state, yet back of this lies the vow of obedience to Rome, absolving them from every pledge inimical to her interests.
History testifies of her artful and persistent efforts to insinuate herself into the affairs of nations; and having gained a foothold, to further her own aims, even at the ruin of princes and people. In the year 1204, Pope Innocent III extracted from Peter II, king of Arragon, the following extraordinary oath: "I, Peter, king of Arragonians, profess and promise to be ever faithful and obedient to my lord, Pope Innocent, to his Catholic successors, and the Roman Church, and faithfully to preserve my kingdom in his obedience, defending the Catholic faith, and persecuting heretical pravity."—John Dowling, The History of Romanism, b. 5, ch. 6, sec. 55. This is in harmony with the claims regarding the power of the Roman pontiff "that it is lawful for him to depose emperors" and "that he can absolve subjects from their allegiance to unrighteous rulers."—Mosheim, b. 3, cent. 11, pt. 2, ch. 2, sec. 9, note 17. (See also Appendix note for page 447.)
And let it be remembered, it is the boast of Rome that she never changes. The principles of Gregory VII and Innocent III are still the principles of the Roman Catholic Church. And had she but the power, she would put them in practice with as much vigor now as in past centuries. Protestants little know what they are doing when they propose to accept the aid of Rome in the work of Sunday exaltation. While they are bent upon the accomplishment of their purpose, Rome is aiming to re-establish her power, to recover her lost supremacy. Let the principle once be established in the United States that the church may employ or control the power of the state; that religious observances may be enforced by secular laws; in short, that the authority of church and state is to dominate the conscience, and the triumph of Rome in this country is assured.
God's word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever shall believe and obey the word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution. GC 580.2 - GC 581.2

But, I also disagree with the SDA understanding of the mark of the beast and with the SDA belief in soul sleep

How can you or anyone else be so bold as disagreeing with our understanding of the mark of the beast, when you don't even recognise who the beast is? It's his mark of authority over man. His. Ask him what his mark is? As for soul sleep, for want of a better definition, I would assume you then believe the devil who said to Eve, "ye shall not surely die", and thus believe people go straight to heaven or hell and live forever only at a different address but come back for some reason to get their old bodies back at the resurrection? Yep, that makes sense

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus said in John 5:28-29 that the hour is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected, which means the dead in Christ will rise at the same hour as the unsaved.

Jesus did not say that.
Read carefully...
“28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. ”
John 5:28-29 KJV

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Not one resurrection. Two separate resurrections. One for the righteous, one for the wicked. Revelation informs us how far apart they will be, and what takes place afterwards. For the saved, the first resurrection at Christ's soon very loud physical, visible, return, will mark the beginning of their reign with Christ in heaven, during which time all questions regarding God's judgement and justice and government will be answered. When the wicked are raised at the end of the 1000 years, there will be no doubts, or unanswered questions regarding the just and fair judgement upon the wicked. Even they will now their knees along with Satan and all his demonic angels, and confess...too late... that Jesus is Lord and His judgement true and their execution just. Fire then comes down of heaven and destroys them all.