Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I see the Trinity as God having three roles, as my dad was a father, husband, son, lawyer, and other things.
Understanding the GodHead.
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The core belief is the Father Son, and Holy Ghost. If you deny that, you go into what can only be called absolute confusion or doctrines of demons to say the least...
Yet, at the baptism by John, all three show themselves as separate. Its much like Christ is fully man and yet fully God, we will spend quite a time going over that with Him in heaven..
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
That's quite the wall you put up to prevent exploring the idea as @AW Bowman asked where does this idea come from?
I find it most disturbing how passionate people are to express this idea that actually, not only is not found in Scripture, but contradicts Scripture.
We are called to spread the truth is in God's Word not confusion or strange tangents that many do when it come to the deep things of God such as this, to say the least.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
There is nothing confusing, tangential, strange or deeper than there is only one God the Father.
So Christ was nothing, no my brother, you have missed the mark to say the least..
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
What kind of all or nothing mentality is that? Does Acts 3:13 identify Jesus as the servant of God? Being OF God is not nothing.
I have missed nothing. Do you know every epistle acknowledges only God the Father? Why would that be, do you suppose? No answer to my question eh?
Where does this idea come from that God is not who Scripture says he is, YHWH, only the Father is God? What verse says otherwise? What verse says it is important to believe the trinity?
My point is The LDS has taken over the term Godhead they know what trinity means and it does not describe what they have.They have 3 Gods with the same will.In the LDS everyone is a God even Satan who they call Jesus brother.They will tell you its a trinity at first but that will change as you go deeper.What is the difference between the LDS and all other Christians churches they have allowed Proficiency to contaminate the core faith changing everything to where it only resembles Christianity.All the differences were given to them through the prophet of the LDS church by prophecy.The faith of the LDS church is constantly evolving as the prophet of the LDS church speaks to God or so he claims.They tell you when you die you will become a God you may even get your own little planet to watch over the beings created.In the christian church the faith stays the same its protected and out of reach of being changed by a so called prophet.I am in no way saying LDS people are bad evil people just that their belief is different due to prophecy unlike our faith where we hold the faith from change.
Christians are holders of the faith we adopted the faith and will pass it on the same way it is not for us to change it is ours to understand or it will be lost.Many do not feel that way and want it their own way in today's world..
Christians are holders of the faith we adopted the faith and will pass it on the same way it is not for us to change it is ours to understand or it will be lost.Many do not feel that way and want it their own way in today's world..
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AW Bowman
Active Member
So, is anyone ready to present their understanding of God’s mode/modes of existence?
There is a good study on the subject, “Two Powers in Heaven, Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism” by Alan F. Segal, a Professor of Jewish Studies at Barnard College. The early controversy between Merkabah mysticism and rabbinic Judaism concerning the number of “powers” in heaven arose after 100 BCE, and the debates were well-known and discussed during the Second Temple period. It was during the period following the advent of Jesus Christ that first-century Jewish Christianity was added to the “powers” debate.
I point this out because Mr. Segal sheds some light on these competing arguments, including the idea of God being divided into three “Holy Persons” which did not arise as a new and novel concept in the later Gentile churches, as assumed by most modern, western churches.
Remember, in the history of the church, violence has erupted among the holders of competing views of God, and that should not be.
So, I guess one of the first questions should be, “Is there any correlation between the composition of a human, being made in the image (tselem n-m) and likeness (dmuwth n-f) of God with the composition of God?” (Gen 1:26,27) Would understanding the purpose and roles of combined elements (body, soul, and spirit) in human existence be of any assistance? Perhaps.
A personal quagmire: I am a triune being constructed with a body, soul, and spirit. I live with this daily, and should I lose any one of these three elements I die – no longer exist as a human being! I'm dead. My body goes into the ground, my spirit returns to God, and my soul tags along. I freely admit that I have no clue how these three elements are united and result in life, as a unique, single individual. If I understood this process, perhaps I could understand God’s composition.
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A suggestion: Consider the possibility that none of the various ideas, theories, or conjectures about God’s existence and manifestations to mankind are correct. Where would that leave our individual, church, and denominational “God” dogmas? (Isa 55:8,9)
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As a broad-brush delineation: The classical Hebrew approach to understanding God is to seek out and perform whatever He instructs, i.e. what must one do to please God (obedience) – not how God is constructed. The classical Western (Gentile) church seeks to know the “who, what and how” of God’s being, i.e. to understand God from a physical (rational) worldview. The result is major religious divisions – everyone has an opinion. and that gave rise to over 40,000 Christian denominations, plus independent (non-denomination) churches, house churches, and non-churched Christians. Yep, the Church is a mess!
As an aside, God’s O.T. biblical (personal) name is Yhvah (n-p) or Yhovah (n-p), translated as “The Lord.” In other references to God as a person, it is Elohiym (n-m), translated as “God.”
May our studies be fruitful.
There is a good study on the subject, “Two Powers in Heaven, Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism” by Alan F. Segal, a Professor of Jewish Studies at Barnard College. The early controversy between Merkabah mysticism and rabbinic Judaism concerning the number of “powers” in heaven arose after 100 BCE, and the debates were well-known and discussed during the Second Temple period. It was during the period following the advent of Jesus Christ that first-century Jewish Christianity was added to the “powers” debate.
I point this out because Mr. Segal sheds some light on these competing arguments, including the idea of God being divided into three “Holy Persons” which did not arise as a new and novel concept in the later Gentile churches, as assumed by most modern, western churches.
Remember, in the history of the church, violence has erupted among the holders of competing views of God, and that should not be.
So, I guess one of the first questions should be, “Is there any correlation between the composition of a human, being made in the image (tselem n-m) and likeness (dmuwth n-f) of God with the composition of God?” (Gen 1:26,27) Would understanding the purpose and roles of combined elements (body, soul, and spirit) in human existence be of any assistance? Perhaps.
A personal quagmire: I am a triune being constructed with a body, soul, and spirit. I live with this daily, and should I lose any one of these three elements I die – no longer exist as a human being! I'm dead. My body goes into the ground, my spirit returns to God, and my soul tags along. I freely admit that I have no clue how these three elements are united and result in life, as a unique, single individual. If I understood this process, perhaps I could understand God’s composition.
-----------------------
A suggestion: Consider the possibility that none of the various ideas, theories, or conjectures about God’s existence and manifestations to mankind are correct. Where would that leave our individual, church, and denominational “God” dogmas? (Isa 55:8,9)
------------------------
As a broad-brush delineation: The classical Hebrew approach to understanding God is to seek out and perform whatever He instructs, i.e. what must one do to please God (obedience) – not how God is constructed. The classical Western (Gentile) church seeks to know the “who, what and how” of God’s being, i.e. to understand God from a physical (rational) worldview. The result is major religious divisions – everyone has an opinion. and that gave rise to over 40,000 Christian denominations, plus independent (non-denomination) churches, house churches, and non-churched Christians. Yep, the Church is a mess!
As an aside, God’s O.T. biblical (personal) name is Yhvah (n-p) or Yhovah (n-p), translated as “The Lord.” In other references to God as a person, it is Elohiym (n-m), translated as “God.”
May our studies be fruitful.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No. You are a single being, a single person. Having parts does not make each part a different person and certainly these parts do not add up to 3.
You got 2 hands and 2 feet, etc.
To properly understand the human condition, here is the formula:
SOUL = BODY + SPIRIT
2 add up to a whole. This is not 3, not triune, which is a Pagan idea not found in the Bible, e.g., a triangle is a single shape, not a triune shape.
Magdala
Active Member
He Who Is has the title "the Father" because of the Son, and vice versa. If Jesus the Son of God isn't God, then why does He Who Is need to be called the Father?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Father and son are relationship words. Their names are YHWH and Jesus. Jesus has a God. YHWH is God of all, not just Jesus.
Magdala
Active Member
The name "Jesus" is the name given to the Word, the same Word identified as God in Jn. 1:1.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
False. Words are not a person but what a person says. In this case, we are talking about YHWH’s words that Jesus speaks. John 1:21, 45.
John 1 is about the expected prophet Moses told the Jews about. Ever read Deut 18:15-18?
Magdala
Active Member
I said that the Word was identified as God in Jn. 1:1. John said, "God was the Word" (1:1). Is he not saying that God was the Word?
Thirteen verses later, John said, "the Word flesh became and dwelt among us" (1:14). Is he not saying that the Word (God) became flesh, as well as indicating that prior to becoming human, the Word (God) preexisted as not a human?
The Word was sent because Jesus (the Word as human) said that the Father (the Thought) sent Him (Jn. 3:17;34;5:30;6:38;7:28-29;8:29;11:42;12:49;17:3;20:21;1 Jn. 4:9). Is it not so that the Word became human and dwelt among the people (Jn. 1:14) by being begotten by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin, and was named "Jesus" (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35)?
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Not an answer to my question. Did you ever read Deuteronomy 18:15-18? Who in John 1 is the expected prophet Moses told them about?
Trinitarians doctrinally invest in 1:1 because there is no verse in all of the 66 books that states the trinity doctrine - and neither does John 1:1, which is a simple play on words. You contradict Jesus at 17:3 who says the Father is the only true God. This means Jesus is not literally God. Are you going to just ignore that?
Magdala
Active Member
Yep.
Jesus.
Jesus said, "This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ" (Jn. 17:3). That verse isn't a problem for me, because I understand how the Holy Trinity works. That verse is a problem for you because you don't know how to reconcile it with the following (which you've ignored once so far):
John said, "God was the Word" (1:1). Is he not saying that God was the Word? Yes or no?
Thirteen verses later, John said, "the Word flesh became and dwelt among us" (1:14). Is he not saying that the Word (God) became flesh, as well as indicating that prior to becoming human, the Word (God) preexisted as not a human? Yes or no?
The Word was sent because Jesus (the Word as human) said that the Father (the Thought) sent Him (Jn. 3:17;34;5:30;6:38;7:28-29;8:29;11:42;12:49;17:3;20:21;1 Jn. 4:9). Is it not so that the Word became human and dwelt among the people (Jn. 1:14) by being begotten by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin, and was named "Jesus" (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35)? Yes or no?
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
And you are reading that as literal when it is figurative. This explains why you contradict Jesus in 17:3.
You know words (like god) have more than one sense, right?
It’s so funny how you ignore what the whole chapter 1 is about, particularly
John 1:21, 45 in reference to Deut 18:15-18. LOL. Why?
Magdala
Active Member
Jn. 1:21 was a question directed at John the Baptist, not Jesus. Did you accidentally miscite? And, regarding Jn. 1:45, when you asked me who the expected prophet Moses spoke of is, I answered you. So, I didn't ignore anything.
As for Jn. 17:3, it isn't a problem for me because I understand that God is triune and one, and how the Holy Trinity works. You presently don't, and thus you presently don't know how to reconcile Jn. 17:3 with the following (which you've ignored twice so far):
John said, "God was the Word" (1:1). Is he not saying that God was the Word? Yes or no?
Thirteen verses later, John said, "the Word flesh became and dwelt among us" (1:14). Is he not saying that the Word (God) became flesh, as well as indicating that prior to becoming human, the Word (God) preexisted as not a human? Yes or no?
The Word was sent because Jesus (the Word as a human) said that the Father (the Thought) sent Him (Jn. 3:17;34;5:30;6:38;7:28-29;8:29;11:42;12:49;17:3;20:21;1 Jn. 4:9). Is it not so that the Word became human and dwelt among the people (Jn. 1:14) by being begotten by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin, and was named "Jesus" (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35)? Yes or no?
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