Can the source of all evil... please stand up?!

[APAK]

This is one of the toughest areas in life that is a true enigma and very elusive to pin-down - to nail down in the mind let alone on paper.

So we start off with the the written words on paper and available documentation until it satisfies our thoughts in our minds.

We have been inundated with scripture, multitudes of so-called scholars over the ages, and purported personal experiences of evil existing, and by/through our own minds then we believe that evil exists, and if it does, then:

In what form(s)?
What or who is its name?
What and where is the source?
Why did or does it exist?
How does it all work?

We have been entertained and sometimes troubled with commonly known symbols representing evil that we most probability do not really know or understand it as a complete subject, and of some concern. We may only have a surface-level knowledge and awareness of these symbols, and then they especially come into play once things in out lives become unraveled, not perfect, not understood, things going sideways, we become uncomfortable, we have been offended, assaulted, and the inverse, we do the same to others.

These 'bad' experiences or events usually equate to something sinister or evil at play.

In scripture we have used these symbols to represent evil:

A/The satan, lucifer, devil, demon, dragon, serpent, (chief) fallen angel, and our corrupted heart and mind, and even god.

Can we place each of these symbols as jigsaw puzzle pieces on the same puzzle picture?

Is what we have been taught about these symbols, do they really match reality?

Have we been brainwashed, misled into believing in fairy tales?

What is the truth of this matter?

Please entertain this thread with you thoughts on this matter, using scripture, or other secular historical records, or personal experiences.

And to tell you the truth, I have not figured it out to my pleasing yet.

Thanks,

Blessings to all......APAK

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

This is one of the toughest areas in life that is a true enigma and very elusive to pin-down - to nail down in the mind let alone on paper.

So we start off with the the written words on paper and available documentation until it satisfies our thoughts in our minds.

We have been inundated with scripture, multitudes of so-called scholars over the ages, and purported personal experiences of evil existing, and by/through our own minds then we believe that evil exists, and if it does, then:

In what form(s)?
What or who is its name?
What and where is the source?
Why did or does it exist?
How does it all work?

We have been entertained and sometimes troubled with commonly known symbols representing evil that we most probability do not really know or understand it as a complete subject, and of some concern. We may only have a surface-level knowledge and awareness of these symbols, and then they especially come into play once things in out lives become unraveled, not perfect, not understood, things going sideways, we become uncomfortable, we have been offended, assaulted, and the inverse, we do the same to others.

These 'bad' experiences or events usually equate to something sinister or evil at play.

In scripture we have used these symbols to represent evil:

A/The satan, lucifer, devil, demon, dragon, serpent, (chief) fallen angel, and our corrupted heart and mind, and even god.

Can we place each of these symbols as jigsaw puzzle pieces on the same puzzle picture?

Is what we have been taught about these symbols, do they really match reality?

Have we been brainwashed, misled into believing in fairy tales?

What is the truth of this matter?

Please entertain this thread with you thoughts on this matter, using scripture, or other secular historical records, or personal experiences.

And to tell you the truth, I have not figured it out to my pleasing yet.

Thanks,

Blessings to all......APAK

Sin !

The Pride of Sin !

Man must be born again to be able to deal with Sin ! or to get a handle on such !

If one lacks Virtue, one is worthless, only just a Slave to Sin. God less !

One needs Grace to deal with this world that is full of deceptions and delusions, see that Full ?

So the blind lead the blind ! for they are Slaves to this world.

The Devil ? he is nothing truly in fact, he can do nothing at all, but is only a tempter ! for the key to such on on is in regards The Stain of Original Sin ! That Stain is upon us, but if we become born againe, then we can have a handle on such, so as to deal with it's workings. because one is then of the Body of Christ and he is The Head their of.

The Devil had no power over Jesus at all !

 

[quietthinker]

This is one of the toughest areas in life that is a true enigma and very elusive to pin-down - to nail down in the mind let alone on paper.

So we start off with the the written words on paper and available documentation until it satisfies our thoughts in our minds.

We have been inundated with scripture, multitudes of so-called scholars over the ages, and purported personal experiences of evil existing, and by/through our own minds then we believe that evil exists, and if it does, then:

In what form(s)?
What or who is its name?
What and where is the source?
Why did or does it exist?
How does it all work?

We have been entertained and sometimes troubled with commonly known symbols representing evil that we most probability do not really know or understand it as a complete subject, and of some concern. We may only have a surface-level knowledge and awareness of these symbols, and then they especially come into play once things in out lives become unraveled, not perfect, not understood, things going sideways, we become uncomfortable, we have been offended, assaulted, and the inverse, we do the same to others.

These 'bad' experiences or events usually equate to something sinister or evil at play.

In scripture we have used these symbols to represent evil:

A/The satan, lucifer, devil, demon, dragon, serpent, (chief) fallen angel, and our corrupted heart and mind, and even god.

Can we place each of these symbols as jigsaw puzzle pieces on the same puzzle picture?

Is what we have been taught about these symbols, do they really match reality?

Have we been brainwashed, misled into believing in fairy tales?

What is the truth of this matter?

Please entertain this thread with you thoughts on this matter, using scripture, or other secular historical records, or personal experiences.

And to tell you the truth, I have not figured it out to my pleasing yet.

Thanks,

Blessings to all......APAK

Thank you APAK for the courage to describe your internal world.

 

[ScottA]

In the creation of heavens and the earth, God makes manifest everything everyone ever believed, that was "before the foundation of the world"...as evidence for or against all before the Judgement. He is dividing--as it is written--"the light from the darkness." Then comes the end.

The stumbling block, which I have posted here on the board many times, is the mechanics of it all. People seem to have and inherent need to understand, hands on--as Thomas likewise needed to see the resurrected Christ with his own eyes.

Evil then, is the result of God adding to Himself a Son in whom are many. The means by which is each being born again of His spirit, which means the dividing of Himself--that is the dividing of eternity, into incremental portions day by day. Whereby His mighty power (energy) and Light (light) is and was the creation of visible form (matter), space, time, and matter and the universe and world as we know it. Unfortunately, also causing the shadows of darkness due to the creation of mass/matter, and the shadow of turning day by day, evening and morning.

Space--actual space, is then the manifestation of the gulf or void separating God in His eternity from this world, person to person, here a little there a little, incrementally to the full in Christ. Who by ascending through and beyond the gulf by that same spirit of God, in the end regains Oneness with God, all in all.

And yet there are two sides to the God's eternity vs. times equation or divide: God's eternal side, and also the world's side and the passing of days. Which is the great obstacle of understanding the greater truth of God. Hence, a doctrine here and doctrine there, not always agreeing--because each piece of truth given here a little there a little is indeed only part. Thus, our being lead "unto all truth" by the Holy Spirit promised and sent by Jesus, is a matter of translating the scriptural times into His greater eternal truth--as from His perspective, rather than from the perspective of this world. His Kingdom is not of this world. In other word, it requires learning the absence of times when considering all that was given by the terms of this world, as only pointing to the greater timeless truth--all truth of God. Yes, requiring the renewing of your mind.

Example: Jesus came and was slain in times, but is actually said to have occurred "before the foundation of the world." Both of which are true--that is until the times of this world roll up behind us like a scroll. In which case, many passages of scripture like we "were" crucified with Christ (correctly written in past tense), take on their true and greater eternal meaning--which most have yet to comprehend just looking back to that time of Christ--let alone "before the foundation of the world."

Get use to it--for these are the days of "spirit and truth!" John 4:23.

 

[Jericho]

Please entertain this thread with you thoughts on this matter, using scripture, or other secular historical records, or personal experiences.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Can you elaborate?

 

[Verily]

This is one of the toughest areas in life that is a true enigma and very elusive to pin-down - to nail down in the mind let alone on paper.

So we start off with the the written words on paper and available documentation until it satisfies our thoughts in our minds.

We have been inundated with scripture, multitudes of so-called scholars over the ages, and purported personal experiences of evil existing, and by/through our own minds then we believe that evil exists, and if it does, then:

In what form(s)?
What or who is its name?
What and where is the source?
Why did or does it exist?
How does it all work?

We have been entertained and sometimes troubled with commonly known symbols representing evil that we most probability do not really know or understand it as a complete subject, and of some concern. We may only have a surface-level knowledge and awareness of these symbols, and then they especially come into play once things in out lives become unraveled, not perfect, not understood, things going sideways, we become uncomfortable, we have been offended, assaulted, and the inverse, we do the same to others.

These 'bad' experiences or events usually equate to something sinister or evil at play.

In scripture we have used these symbols to represent evil:

A/The satan, lucifer, devil, demon, dragon, serpent, (chief) fallen angel, and our corrupted heart and mind, and even god.

Can we place each of these symbols as jigsaw puzzle pieces on the same puzzle picture?

Is what we have been taught about these symbols, do they really match reality?

Have we been brainwashed, misled into believing in fairy tales?

What is the truth of this matter?

Please entertain this thread with you thoughts on this matter, using scripture, or other secular historical records, or personal experiences.

And to tell you the truth, I have not figured it out to my pleasing yet.

Thanks,

Blessings to all......APAK

How about this one, sin appears personified here

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat

 

[APAK]

Sin !

The Pride of Sin !

Man must be born again to be able to deal with Sin ! or to get a handle on such !

If one lacks Virtue, one is worthless, only just a Slave to Sin. God less !

One needs Grace to deal with this world that is full of deceptions and delusions, see that Full ?

So the blind lead the blind ! for they are Slaves to this world.

The Devil ? he is nothing truly in fact, he can do nothing at all, but is only a tempter ! for the key to such on on is in regards The Stain of Original Sin ! That Stain is upon us, but if we become born againe, then we can have a handle on such, so as to deal with it's workings. because one is then of the Body of Christ and he is The Head their of.

The Devil had no power over Jesus at all !

Yes, Reggie, and I want to use what you wrote to further this discussion...

Sin is of course loosely described as wickedness and evil in scripture. It is manifested internally from the corrupted heart and defunct spirit without the aid of the spirit of the Son and his Father. These two counter and neutralize sin within us. And of course it is displayed often in the external world by our words and actions.

Sin, wickedness and evil are used interchangeably in scripture...

The Hebrew word ra often appears in our Old Testament as both of the words wickedness and evil. For example, Psalm 7:4 and 5 state, “If I have repaid evil to him who was at peace with me, or have plundered my enemy without cause, let the enemy pursue me and overtake me”

In the same psalm (v. 9), we also read, “Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, but establish the just; for the righteous God tests the hearts and minds” . In verses 4, 5, and 9, the English words are different, but the same Hebrew word is used. This difference in translation is often, but not always, the case.

In the New Testament, we find the Greek word kukos, or kaki (depending on the part of speech), used for “evil” in Matthew 6:34 (KJV and others), but also for “wickedness” in Acts 8:22: “Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.” Another Greek word, poneros, similarly is used as both “evil” and “wickedness” in the English. The difference between kakos and poneros can sometimes be a little difficult to explain, but generally the first indicates what is evil in character and influence, and the second refers more to evil that causes sorrow, pain, labor, and the like—often used in a physical sense.

So, one way at least, evil is sourced through the human corrupted heart.

When Peter lies about not knowing Jesus, and Jesus said he was influenced by the evil things of man and not on God.

(Luk 22:31) And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, Satan has asked for you that he might sift you as wheat.

(Mat 16:22) And Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying: Be it far from you, Lord. This shall never happen to you!
(Mat 16:23) But he turned, and said to Peter: Get behind me, Satan. You are a hindrance to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man. (NEV)


So sin, evil, wickedness, 'a' devil, 'a' satan are all related to the human 'fallen' condition. At this point in this discussion, it does not say there is actually an external entity called satan, even though the expression 'Satan has asked for you' seems as though. It could well be a metaphor for the human condition - the evil that prowls around inside of us, especially before one was saved with the Spirit of God.

Sin they say creates evil or is it that evil, an entity that defied God, creates sin in man?

 

[APAK]

How about this one, sin appears personified here

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat

Personification of evil in humankind...

 

[APAK]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Can you elaborate?

the essence of it...

evil exists, and if it does, then:

In what form(s)?
What or who is its name?
What and where is the source?
Why did or does it exist?
How does it all work?

This is not a straight forward of a subject as you might or have been led to believe Jericho

 

[Verily]

Personification of evil in humankind...

Yeah, exactly, and there are two "he's" (one is greater)

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them:

because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[APAK]

Yeah, exactly, and there are two "he's" (one is greater)

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them:

because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

So evil is a collection of different spirits that oppose God and his Son. And so these evil entities 'roam' and influence creation, especially unsaved mankind. Sin is then neutralized because these spirits cannot thrive in the hearts of the saved.

(1Jn 4:3) And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus came in the flesh is not of God, and they are proved to be of the antichrist; of whom you have heard that it comes, and now is already in the world.
(1Jn 4:4) You are of God, little children, and have overcome them. Because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.

So I wonder then how does the/ 'a' satan and/or a or the devil as it was used in the OT as a condition affecting the spiritual weakness of men, fit in with evil.

Is it the personification and the representation of the total cumulative number of evil spirits that God has allowed to hang 'loose.' for a time?

 

[Verily]

So evil is a collection of different spirits that oppose God and his Son. And so these evil entities 'roam' and influence creation, especially unsaved mankind. Sin is then neutralized because these spirits cannot thrive in the hearts of the saved.

(1Jn 4:3) And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus came in the flesh is not of God, and they are proved to be of the antichrist; of whom you have heard that it comes, and now is already in the world.
(1Jn 4:4) You are of God, little children, and have overcome them. Because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.

So I wonder then how does the/ 'a' satan and/or a or the devil as it was used in the OT as a condition affecting the spiritual weakness of men, fit in with evil.

Is it the personification and the representation of the total cumulative number of evil spirits that God has allowed to hang 'loose.' for a time?

Not sure where to go with that, when you posted, " Can we place each of these symbols as jigsaw puzzle pieces on the same puzzle picture?" Thats more what I prefer to do is link up like pictures and let something grow not wittle it down before the whole thing comes into focus, that always diminishes the picture when I attempt to do that.

 

[amigo de christo]

Verily verily i say unto the writer of this thread and unto all who are present
IF the SOURCE of all evil did stand and his hirelings with him
THERE WOULD BE A STANDING OVATION in most every single church .
THE LEADERS ALREADY ARE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF the source of evil which be the devil , that ol dragon , that serpent .
WE HAVE GOT to get back into the bible TODAY and stay dug in it .

 

[APAK]

In the creation of heavens and the earth, God makes manifest everything everyone ever believed, that was "before the foundation of the world"...as evidence for or against all before the Judgement. He is dividing--as it is written--"the light from the darkness." Then comes the end.

The stumbling block, which I have posted here on the board many times, is the mechanics of it all. People seem to have and inherent need to understand, hands on--as Thomas likewise needed to see the resurrected Christ with his own eyes.

Evil then, is the result of God adding to Himself a Son in whom are many. The means by which is each being born again of His spirit, which means the dividing of Himself--that is the dividing of eternity, into incremental portions day by day. Whereby His mighty power (energy) and Light (light) is and was the creation of visible form (matter), space, time, and matter and the universe and world as we know it. Unfortunately, also causing the shadows of darkness due to the creation of mass/matter, and the shadow of turning day by day, evening and morning.

Space--actual space, is then the manifestation of the gulf or void separating God in His eternity from this world, person to person, here a little there a little, incrementally to the full in Christ. Who by ascending through and beyond the gulf by that same spirit of God, in the end regains Oneness with God, all in all.

And yet there are two sides to the God's eternity vs. times equation or divide: God's eternal side, and also the world's side and the passing of days. Which is the great obstacle of understanding the greater truth of God. Hence, a doctrine here and doctrine there, not always agreeing--because each piece of truth given here a little there a little is indeed only part. Thus, our being lead "unto all truth" by the Holy Spirit promised and sent by Jesus, is a matter of translating the scriptural times into His greater eternal truth--as from His perspective, rather than from the perspective of this world. His Kingdom is not of this world. In other word, it requires learning the absence of times when considering all that was given by the terms of this world, as only pointing to the greater timeless truth--all truth of God. Yes, requiring the renewing of your mind.

Example: Jesus came and was slain in times, but is actually said to have occurred "before the foundation of the world." Both of which are true--that is until the times of this world roll up behind us like a scroll. In which case, many passages of scripture like we "were" crucified with Christ (correctly written in past tense), take on their true and greater eternal meaning--which most have yet to comprehend just looking back to that time of Christ--let alone "before the foundation of the world."

Get use to it--for these are the days of "spirit and truth!" John 4:23.

Your post sounds very esoteric and highly philosophical Scott. So let me attempt to pull out the subject of evil here. Since God caused mankind to multiply over time, of himself, as sons, the process of spiritual essence division of himself, cause the inevitable effect called evil or dark residue. Like creating the day that also cause the darkness in the process.

So today we have more and more evil until Christ actually mends this imperfect process of division in creation by God from his realm. Christ crossed or will cross and heal these two realms....in the future permanently

So evil, wickedness and a satan, a devil, is a byproduct of this imperfect creation we must still live with...?and it affected to fractured human spiritual condition.

Sounds like God wanted to see what would happen to his own creations in this entire cycle, from generation to completion, for the old physical Genesis to the end of the 2nd spiritual Genesis through Christ.

So, then the catch, then evil is not caused by being created, and/or man, and then it is, we just feel the effects of it in our lives, and spread it like a virus, and God pointed to the way to escape what he first created, by design.......now I'm lost in space, where did everyone go.....

​

 

[lforrest]

Not all that is uncomfortable is evil. I wouldn't classify exercise as evil.

I understand it simply that evil is anything contrary to God's will. God's will is manifest in the designs of his original creations.

At first the rebellion in heaven was evil. This lead to the tempting of Eve in the garden. Then the fall, and evil has been multiplying since then..

In what form(s)? Only Spiritual, as evil concerns the will. Any Spirit that goes against God's plan is evil. We may perceive objects as evil, but that is just a disgust or fear response. This means our minds are reacting as God intended to dangerous things.

What or who is its name? To my knowledge there isn't a single being responsible for the existence of evil. Satan would like credit judging by the number of creation myths involving ancient primordial dragons that embody chaos.

What and where is the source?
Free will.

Why did or does it exist?
Because God wanted his creation to be intelligent and obedient.

How does it all work? Redeeming what can be, and purging what can't.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is one of the toughest areas in life that is a true enigma and very elusive to pin-down - to nail down in the mind let alone on paper.

So we start off with the the written words on paper and available documentation until it satisfies our thoughts in our minds.

We have been inundated with scripture, multitudes of so-called scholars over the ages, and purported personal experiences of evil existing, and by/through our own minds then we believe that evil exists, and if it does, then:

In what form(s)?
What or who is its name?
What and where is the source?
Why did or does it exist?
How does it all work?

We have been entertained and sometimes troubled with commonly known symbols representing evil that we most probability do not really know or understand it as a complete subject, and of some concern. We may only have a surface-level knowledge and awareness of these symbols, and then they especially come into play once things in out lives become unraveled, not perfect, not understood, things going sideways, we become uncomfortable, we have been offended, assaulted, and the inverse, we do the same to others.

These 'bad' experiences or events usually equate to something sinister or evil at play.

In scripture we have used these symbols to represent evil:

A/The satan, lucifer, devil, demon, dragon, serpent, (chief) fallen angel, and our corrupted heart and mind, and even god.

Can we place each of these symbols as jigsaw puzzle pieces on the same puzzle picture?

Is what we have been taught about these symbols, do they really match reality?

Have we been brainwashed, misled into believing in fairy tales?

What is the truth of this matter?

Please entertain this thread with you thoughts on this matter, using scripture, or other secular historical records, or personal experiences.

And to tell you the truth, I have not figured it out to my pleasing yet.

Thanks,

Blessings to all......APAK

Those are not symbols but fallen spirit creatures or people.

 

[APAK]

Not all that is uncomfortable is evil. I wouldn't classify exercise as evil.

I understand it simply that evil is anything contrary to God's will. God's will is manifest in the designs of his original creations.

At first the rebellion in heaven was evil. This lead to the tempting of Eve in the garden. Then the fall, and evil has been multiplying since then..

In what form(s)? Only Spiritual, as evil concerns the will. Any Spirit that goes against God's plan is evil. We may perceive objects as evil, but that is just a disgust or fear response. This means our minds are reacting as God intended to dangerous things.

What or who is its name? To my knowledge there isn't a single being responsible for the existence of evil. Satan would like credit judging by the number of creation myths involving ancient primordial dragons that embody chaos.

What and where is the source?
Free will.

Why did or does it exist?
Because God wanted his creation to be intelligent and obedient.

How does it all work? Redeeming what can be, and purging what can't.

A decent response Forrest....and some things here I will consider as I think more on this subject.

I guess as a previous engineer of many shades, on this subject, I would like to see the entire blueprints, the schematics, the equations, the entire process, nuts and bolts to build and run it, from A to Z....and to know I have packaged it all ready to be presented to anyone interested, on demand.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Verily verily i say unto the writer of this thread and unto all who are present
IF the SOURCE of all evil did stand and his hirelings with him
THERE WOULD BE A STANDING OVATION in most every single church .
THE LEADERS ALREADY ARE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF the source of evil which be the devil , that ol dragon , that serpent .
WE HAVE GOT to get back into the bible TODAY and stay dug in it .

@amigo de christo

 

[APAK]

Those are not symbols but fallen spirit creatures or people.

I think there is more to it that angels here Ronald. Look at some of the posts, and you can see there's much more to it..thanx for you response though.

And then where and when did these particular angels first create evil? or found it to use for themselves as it was already present?.....did they also have 'some' limited unhindered freedom to choose good over evil as man does today?

This topic and its underlining currents is not spoke of a great deal, and really needs to be discussed more.

 

[Jericho]

This is not a straight forward of a subject as you might or have been led to believe Jericho

I think you may be overthinking it or at least trying to find an extra-biblical explanation for it. If you accept the Biblical narrative, it explains where evil comes from. Just as dark is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat, evil is the absence not of good but of God. God is the ultimate anti-entropic force. Apart from Him, there is no good. As Romans 3:10 says, "There is no one righteous, not even one." It's our individual wills apart from God that produce evil. At its core, evil is a choice. And not everything bad that happens is necessarily evil, but the result of living in a fallen, disordered universe. As to why God is allowing it for a finite time is another discussion.