Western Trinitarians, do not follow the early church teaching.

[Ronald David Bruno]

Jesus is not like God the Father, the source of all things who is eternal therefore has no beginning, but is begotten by the Father. This is the point where it says 'in the beginning', the point at which the eternal God, had to make a change in order to enter time and space, being purely Spirit. God the Father extended Himself. That point of entry brought forth Jesus His Son, also divine and God and the Holy Spirit who also had a source for existence who would one day enter mankind. That entry into flesh would apply for all of creation.

God was then able to bring forth creation through His Son.

Later Jesus would leave His place in heaven with the Father and take on human flesh for the Father to complete His plan to fully enter into His creation and bring forth humans who would be restored tot he position He originally intended for them, holy beings in whom the Spirit could dwell and share in eternal life with the Godhead.


In the beginning which means creation. This is what I am interpreting from scripture so far with my partial knowledge of the early teachings which I will get into fully.

Well, that's this Monarchial Trinitarian view you support, I do not. I could continue debating but it won't matter, you seem to be fixed on this view.
Looks like Johann joined in ... and so you will have your hands full. Nice to chat with you!

 

[Hepzibah]

Well, that's this Monarchial Trinitarian view you support, I do not. I could continue debating but it won't matter, you seem to be fixed on this view. Nice to chat with you!

I held your view for 50 years and you think I should go back to it? There is nothing I do not know about your view. Farewell!

 

[Brakelite]

This theological framework provides a robust understanding of the relational dynamics within the Godhead, affirming the eternal generation of the Son and the procession of the Spirit from the Father, without compromising the divine essence shared among the three Persons.

That sounds like classical Catholic trinitarianism. "Eternal generation" in the Catholic sense denies the real literal Father/ Son paradigm. And the indivisibility of the trinity denies the death of Christ. It echoes Satan's lie in Eden...ye shall not surely die.

 

[Hepzibah]

Thank you @Johann

Prov 8:22 says:

New International Version
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

New Living Translation
“The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.

English Standard Version
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.

Berean Standard Bible
The LORD created me as His first course, before His works of old.

King James Bible
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

New King James Version
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

Christ may have been begotten in eternity, but there is nothing that says it could not have been immediately beforehand, or was not the instrument that brought in our eon.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

This points to a day in time that He was begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made which would explain the 'always has been divine' error.

The way the Trinity has been explained leaves a whole pile of verses that make no sense when they speak of Jesus being less than God (John 14:28) and hence we have the never ending debate of Arianism.

Once again, we get to the fact that many scholars disagree on what he tenses mean exactly. I think the early church father knew better than todays scholars.

But thanks for that. Very useful.

 

[Brakelite]

Yes that was the beginning but the Father only existed as God, who alone is eternal in the sense that He had no beginning whereas the Son was begotten and the Spirit came forth. This is the early church belief.

Indeed it was, and what I believe, although I'm open to correction. You have me confused however with your earlier statement about "eternal generation". I believe Christ had a beginning, begotten, at a point in eternity, and before creation. He is not constantly being begotten, and i have no idea what spirate means.

 

[Hepzibah]

Indeed it was, and what I believe, although I'm open to correction. You have me confused however with your earlier statement about "eternal generation". I believe Christ had a beginning, begotten, at a point in eternity, and before creation. He is not constantly being begotten, and i have no idea what spirate means.

I can't find the ref. you mentioned. I may have meant generated in eternity.

 

[Wrangler]

@face2face, this really is a great post! It reveals a profound lie of the trinity, that Jesus' ministry left us in the dark, when he is the light, that mysteries remain when they have been revealed! The mystery is the lie!
John 17:3
And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.

The way to eternal life is not mystery but knowledge,(relational) knowledge of 2 people: YHWH, the Lord God and the one he sent, the Lord Jesus.

Given the widespread influence of Trinitarian error for the past 1,700 years, it's predictable that a resurgence of the Original Gospel would occur as we approach the Master's return.

Profound!

we are living in the so called age of reason where about everything should be understood by logic and when logic does not apply and can't be understood it is false. And then the Trinity is an easy target because the Trinity can't be understood, only believed.

Oh the irony! All trinitarians do is use logic in attempting back door rationalizations to "support" their dogma. The word was god. The word was made flesh. The logical conclusion you want to draw from that ...

Given the trinity can't be understood, no one has any business presenting it as true!

• A witness is one with direct knowledge.
• This confession of mystery makes trinitarians false witnesses.

Friend, science (study) is not the enemy of faith. God invented logic. Aristotle discovered it. Logic is a basic tool to effectively deal with our world. In devotional reading yesterday, John 2:11, 23 present the logic embraced by people of Jesus' day; there was evidence and so they believed. Cause and Effect.
11 This miraculous sign at Cana in Galilee was the first time Jesus revealed his glory. And his disciples believed in him.
23 Because of the miraculous signs Jesus did in Jerusalem at the Passover celebration, many began to trust in him.

We have that today. There is overwhelming evidence in the Bible that the trinity is false. So, us unitarians believe in the unity of God and the humanity of Christ because that is the evidence revealed to us by God.

Wow such an admission @Wrangler & @APAK

Ephesians 3:3-6 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."

The Gospel here is inferred as a message understood!

Colossians 1:26-27 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Can you find me Pro anywhere in the Bible that teaches:

1. The Trinity is unknown, and yet to be believed upon
2. The Godhead is unknown, and yet to be believed upon
3. That the nature of Christ is unknown, and yet to be believed upon

@ProDeo made an Appeal to Ignorance. It is stunning but many trinitarians are so intellectually bankrupt, they have no shame in the confession that not only do they not understand what they believe, they admit what they believe is not something that can be understood. Perhaps they take this as a sign of humility?

And this begs the question, if you cannot understand something, how can you believe it is true? That is not the moral of John 2. They saw the evidence and then believed.

The final book of the Bible is revelation but trinitarians proceed as if we remain in the dark and must embrace a mystery. Worst of all, embrace a mystery that contradicts God's revealed word. It is evil! Right @Pierac?

 

[APAK]

Here it is Pro!

God, the Father
Son of God
The Holy Spirit being the Power of God


The Word of God descended from Heaven by the Power of the Holy Spirit and gave conception in Mary

Given the widespread influence of Trinitarian error for the past 1,700 years, it's predictable that a resurgence of the Original Gospel would occur as we approach the Master's return.

Wow such an admission @Wrangler & @APAK

Ephesians 3:3-6 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."

The Gospel here is inferred as a message understood!

Colossians 1:26-27 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Can you find me Pro anywhere in the Bible that teaches:

1. The Trinity is unknown, and yet to be believed upon
2. The Godhead is unknown, and yet to be believed upon
3. That the nature of Christ is unknown, and yet to be believed upon

Look forward to those references!

F2F

Monarchical Trinitarianism is one big step in the right direction to knowing the true one God, although still far away from knowing especially the true Christ.

It might behoove many Egalitarian (Western) Trinitarians to march on over to the Monarchical camp, and try it out for size, before eventually coming home back to God who has been waiting patiently for them.

 

[Hepzibah]

before eventually coming home back to God who has been waiting patiently for them.

and where is that, pray?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I held your view for 50 years and you think I should go back to it? There is nothing I do not know about your view. Farewell!

No, keep your view. But when did you change it? After seeing this Dr. Branson video? Could it be an older woman enamored by a young professor ... I've seen it happen before?

 

[Hepzibah]

No, keep your view. But when did you change it? After seeing this Dr. Branson video? Could it be an older woman enamored by a young professor ... I've seen it happen before?

Haha, not funny. Only the truth speaks to me.

I began to come out of Protestantism when I found its tenets are not to be found in the early church. The past two years have cured me from it and I will never go back and it is more recently that I have been looking at the Trinity.

Many are turning to Orthodoxy nowadays.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Proverbs 8:12,22-23
[12]I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
[22]The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
[23]I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

These verses are speaking of wisdom. (If wisdom is the Son of God, who is prudence??)

But if you must, the word translated "possessed" in verse 22 is this:

Hebrew: קנה
Transliteration: qânâh
Pronunciation: kaw-naw'
Definition: A primitive root; to {erect} that {is} create; by extension to {procure} especially by purchase (causatively sell); by implication to own: - {attain} buy ({-er}) teach to keep {cattle} {get} provoke to {jealousy} possess ({-or}) {purchase} {recover} {redeem} X {surely} X verily.
KJV Usage: Buy (46x), get (15x), purchased (5x), buyer (3x), possessor (3x), possessed (2x), owner (1x), recover (1x), redeemed (1x), misc (7x).
Occurs: 84
In verses: 76

The word in verse 22 translated "beginning" is this:

Hebrew: ראשׁית
Transliteration: rê'shîyth
Pronunciation: ray-sheeth'
Definition: From the same as H7218; the {first} in {place} {time} order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - {beginning} chief ({-est}) first ({-fruits} {part} {time}) principal thing.
KJV Usage: beginning (18x), firstfruits (11x), first (9x), chief (8x), misc (5x).
Occurs: 51
In verses: 49

The word in verse 22 translated "before" is this:

Hebrew: קדמה קדם
Transliteration: qedem qêdmâh
Pronunciation: {keh'-dem} kayd'-maw
Definition: From H6923; the {front} of palce (absolutely the fore {part} relatively the East) or time (antiquity); often used adverbially ({before } {anciently } eastward): - {aforetime} ancient ({time}) {before} east ({end} {part} {side} {-ward}) {eternal} X ever ({-lasting}) {forward} {old} past. Compare H6926 .
KJV Usage: east (32x), old (17x), eastward (11x), ancient (6x), east side (5x), before (3x), east part (2x), ancient time (2x), aforetime (1x), eternal (1x), misc (7x).
Occurs: 87
In verses: 83

Note, this word also has the meaning "eternal."

The phrase in verse 22 translated "set up" is this:

Hebrew: נסך
Transliteration: nâsak
Pronunciation: naw-sak'
Definition: A primitive root; to pour {out} especially a {libation} or to cast (metal); by analogy to anoint a king: - {cover} {melt} {offer} (cause to) pour ({out}) set (up).
KJV Usage: pour out (12x), pour (4x), cover (3x), offer (2x), melteth (1x), molten (1x), set (1x), set up (1x).
Occurs: 25
In verses: 24

And so, "wisdom" was poured out/over "from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

The word in verse 23 translated "everlasting" is this:

Hebrew: עלם עולם
Transliteration: ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
Pronunciation: {o-lawm'} o-lawm'
Definition: From H5956; properly {concealed} that {is} the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or {future}) that {is} (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always : - always ({-s}) ancient ({time}) any {more} {continuance} {eternal} ({for} [n-]) ever ({-lasting} {-more} of {old}) {lasting} long ({time}) (of) old ({time}) {perpetual} at any {time} (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare {H5331 } H5703 .
KJV Usage: ever (272x), everlasting (63x), old (22x), perpetual (22x), evermore (15x), never (13x), time (6x), ancient (5x), world (4x), always (3x), alway (2x), long (2x), more (2x), never (with H408) (2x), misc (6x).
Occurs: 439
In verses: 414

Amongst its many meanings, is ...everlasting, perpetual, evermore, alway(s).

Wisdom and prudence are eternal attributes of God. If you say wisdom is Jesus/the Son, then you have to give prudence personhood as well.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Haha, not funny. Only the truth speaks to me.

I began to come out of Protestantism when I found its tenets are not to be found in the early church. The past two years have cured me from it and I will never go back and it is more recently that I have been looking at the Trinity.

Many are turning to Orthodoxy nowadays.

Yah, now the whole truth is coming out, you are anti-Protestant. Your signature ( I checked out) says Protestantism is tantamount to "hermeneutic chaos". Yah sure ... Go row your boat somewhere else ... gently down another small creek ... away from the main strong river we are on - it's too rough for you in that dingy.

 

[Johann]

Proverbs 8:12,22-23
[12]I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
[22]The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
[23]I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

These verses are speaking of wisdom. (If wisdom is the Son of God, who is prudence??)

But if you must, the word translated "possessed" in verse 22 is this:

Hebrew: קנה
Transliteration: qânâh
Pronunciation: kaw-naw'
Definition: A primitive root; to {erect} that {is} create; by extension to {procure} especially by purchase (causatively sell); by implication to own: - {attain} buy ({-er}) teach to keep {cattle} {get} provoke to {jealousy} possess ({-or}) {purchase} {recover} {redeem} X {surely} X verily.
KJV Usage: Buy (46x), get (15x), purchased (5x), buyer (3x), possessor (3x), possessed (2x), owner (1x), recover (1x), redeemed (1x), misc (7x).
Occurs: 84
In verses: 76

The word in verse 22 translated "beginning" is this:

Hebrew: ראשׁית
Transliteration: rê'shîyth
Pronunciation: ray-sheeth'
Definition: From the same as H7218; the {first} in {place} {time} order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - {beginning} chief ({-est}) first ({-fruits} {part} {time}) principal thing.
KJV Usage: beginning (18x), firstfruits (11x), first (9x), chief (8x), misc (5x).
Occurs: 51
In verses: 49

The word in verse 22 translated "before" is this:

Hebrew: קדמה קדם
Transliteration: qedem qêdmâh
Pronunciation: {keh'-dem} kayd'-maw
Definition: From H6923; the {front} of palce (absolutely the fore {part} relatively the East) or time (antiquity); often used adverbially ({before } {anciently } eastward): - {aforetime} ancient ({time}) {before} east ({end} {part} {side} {-ward}) {eternal} X ever ({-lasting}) {forward} {old} past. Compare H6926 .
KJV Usage: east (32x), old (17x), eastward (11x), ancient (6x), east side (5x), before (3x), east part (2x), ancient time (2x), aforetime (1x), eternal (1x), misc (7x).
Occurs: 87
In verses: 83

Note, this word also has the meaning "eternal."

The phrase in verse 22 translated "set up" is this:

Hebrew: נסך
Transliteration: nâsak
Pronunciation: naw-sak'
Definition: A primitive root; to pour {out} especially a {libation} or to cast (metal); by analogy to anoint a king: - {cover} {melt} {offer} (cause to) pour ({out}) set (up).
KJV Usage: pour out (12x), pour (4x), cover (3x), offer (2x), melteth (1x), molten (1x), set (1x), set up (1x).
Occurs: 25
In verses: 24

And so, "wisdom" was poured out/over "from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

The word in verse 23 translated "everlasting" is this:

Hebrew: עלם עולם
Transliteration: ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
Pronunciation: {o-lawm'} o-lawm'
Definition: From H5956; properly {concealed} that {is} the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or {future}) that {is} (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always : - always ({-s}) ancient ({time}) any {more} {continuance} {eternal} ({for} [n-]) ever ({-lasting} {-more} of {old}) {lasting} long ({time}) (of) old ({time}) {perpetual} at any {time} (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare {H5331 } H5703 .
KJV Usage: ever (272x), everlasting (63x), old (22x), perpetual (22x), evermore (15x), never (13x), time (6x), ancient (5x), world (4x), always (3x), alway (2x), long (2x), more (2x), never (with H408) (2x), misc (6x).
Occurs: 439
In verses: 414

Amongst its many meanings, is ...everlasting, perpetual, evermore, alway(s).

Wisdom and prudence are eternal attributes of God. If you say wisdom is Jesus/the Son, then you have to give prudence personhood as well.

Now we have a conundrum @TLHKAJ--who IS wisdom?

Johann.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I don’t mean to derail this thread, but I believe the prologue of John clearly affirms that the two existed simultaneously. Let me know if you agree, @Hepzibah.

Exegesis of ἦν (ēn, "was") and the Imperfect Tense in John 1:1
The phrase Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος ("In the beginning was the Word") in John 1:1 is a pivotal statement regarding the eternal existence of the Son, and the use of the imperfect verb ἦν (ēn, "was") carries profound implications for understanding His nature and preexistence.

1. Syntactical Analysis of Ἐν ἀρχῇ ("In the beginning")
The phrase Ἐν ἀρχῇ draws an intentional parallel to Genesis 1:1 in the Septuagint (Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ Θεὸς, "In the beginning God created").

However, while Genesis refers to the starting point of creation, John 1:1 employs Ἐν ἀρχῇ to place the Word prior to creation. The Word is depicted as already existing at the commencement of time, transcending the temporal framework.

This is a deliberate contrast to the aorist verb ἐποίησεν ("created") in Genesis, which denotes a completed action marking the start of creation.

2. The Imperfect Verb ἦν ("was")

The verb ἦν (imperfect form of εἰμί, "to be") is critical to the theological weight of John 1:1. Unlike the aorist tense, which indicates a completed action with a definitive starting point, the imperfect tense conveys continuous or ongoing action in the past. In this context, ἦν signifies the Word's continuous, eternal existence before and during the beginning of creation. This is contrasted with the later use of the verb ἐγένετο ("came into being") in John 1:3 to describe the creation of all things.

Key Implications of the Imperfect Tense:

Timeless Existence: The use of ἦν in Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος explicitly denies that the Word had a point of origin.

The Word was already existing (ongoingly) when "the beginning" occurred. As Daniel B. Wallace notes in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, the imperfect here suggests durative action extending indefinitely into the past, underscoring the eternal existence of the Word.

Contrasted with Creation: The verb ἐγένετο in John 1:3 emphasizes the coming into being of created things, thereby distinguishing the uncreated nature of the Word. The Word’s existence is not described in terms of becoming but simply as eternally "being."

3. Semantic Weight of ὁ λόγος ("the Word")
The designation ὁ λόγος emphasizes the Word’s unique identity as divine Person, expression, and communication. The imperfect tense reinforces this identity as not only preexistent but also coexistent with God (πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, "with God"). The Son is not a created intermediary but the eternal expression of God’s nature, inseparable from the Godhead.

4. Theological Significance of the Imperfect Tense
The use of ἦν in all three clauses of John 1:1 highlights three distinct yet interconnected truths about the Word:

Eternality- Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος confirms the Word’s existence before creation, negating any notion of the Son coming into being at a specific point in time.

Distinctiveness- ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν ("the Word was with God") asserts the Word's distinct personhood, while the imperfect tense suggests an eternal relationship.

Divinity- θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος ("the Word was God") declares the full deity of the Word, with the imperfect tense affirming that the Word has always been divine.

Thanks and God bless.

J.

Nice work, but she just dismissed it by saying "thank you ... useful thoughts", but didn't answer your question. It's getting to hot for her ... getting hit from all directions lol. It's typical when you put someone up against the wall and their defense collapses; so they retreat by saying "Thank you, useful stuff..." Maybe if you simplify the next post without the Greek, since most of us don't read it anyway. But hay, she's the one who claims Protestantism is all hermeneutical chaos, so load up your guns and give her a taste of your hermeneutics.

 

[Johann]

Nice work, but she just dismissed it by saying "thank you ... useful thoughts", but didn't answer your question. It's getting to hot for her ... getting hit from all directions lol. It's typical when you put someone up against the wall and their defense collapses; so they retreat by saying "Thank you, useful stuff..." Maybe if you simplify the next post without the Greek, since most of us don't read it anyway. But hay, she's the one who claims Protestantism is all hermeneutical chaos, so load up your guns and give her a taste of your hermeneutics.

@TLHKAJ raised an intriguing question-who exactly is wisdom in Proverbs 8, @Ronald David Bruno? Would it be accurate to interpret this as referring to Christ Jesus?

See, I don't claim to know it all.

J.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Now we have a conundrum @TLHKAJ--who IS wisdom?

Johann.

I believe according to Scripture, they are eternal attributes of God.... wisdom, prudence, knowledge, etc.

 

[TLHKAJ]

See here ....wisdom, knowledge, understanding, etc, come from God because they are attributes of God.

Job 28:20
[20]Whence then cometh wisdom? and where is the place of understanding?

Proverbs 2:1-5
[1]My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
[2]So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
[3]Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
[4]If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
[5]Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

Proverbs 2:6-8
[6]For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
[7]He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
[8]He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

Proverbs 2:9-22
[9]Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.
[10]When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;
[11]Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:
[12]To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;
[13]Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness;
[14]Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;
[15]Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths:
[16]To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words;
[17]Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God.
[18]For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead.
[19]None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life.
[20]That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous.
[21]For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
[22]But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

2 Chronicles 1:10
[10]Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great?

 

[TLHKAJ]

Proverbs 2:6-8
[6]For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
[7]He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
[8]He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

Knowledge and understanding come out of the mouth of God.
So ...His Word has the attributes of knowledge and understanding ...all these things ...because the Word IS God. God never came into being. He is everlasting, eternal. We as humans have a beginning because we were created ...or, the original humans were created, and we were procreated, formed in our mother's wombs by the hand of God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

@TLHKAJ raised an intriguing question-who exactly is wisdom in Proverbs 8, @Ronald David Bruno? Would it be accurate to interpret this as referring to Christ Jesus?

See, I don't claim to know it all.

J.

Not Jesus, not God. Just as understanding is not a person, "wisdom" is not a person, Solomon expresses wisdom figuratively. Wisdom is exactly what he asked God for to rule his kingdom - and God gave it to him. In Proverbs 8, it seems to take on the essence of God, having attributes of God, with power and counseling ( like the Holy Spirit does): but then it reveals itself as something created:
“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,"

Wisdom, as Solomon learned, comes over time, through experience. He was one of the wisest men because God brought him through a full, exhaustive range of life's experiences, more than any of us could experience. I suppose God gave him a good mind too.