Revelation - chapters 19 and 20

[Davidpt]

Keep in mind, that these won't happen UNTIL the church finishes with its 1,260 symbolical days (the New Testament period) for salvation with all Elect secured FIRST. The false prophets and christs will "come out of the bottomless pit" as smoke locusts with power from Satan who happen to be their king. Therefore, the bottomless pit is not a physical place somewhere on Earth but signifies the spirit of Satan being idle or restrained as Christ is saving people through His Two Witnesses with salvation gospel.

The locusts come out to torment those that don't have the seal of God. In what way would false prophets and false christs be tormenting those those that don't have the seal of God? The text says they are tormented for 5 months wishing to die but death flees from them. Your interpretation doesn't even remotely help make sense of any of this. IOW, your interpretation is not on the same page with what John saw at the time.

And why would satan be attacking his own ppl via these locusts? After all, anyone that doesn't have the seal of God would already be in satan's camp. Therefore, it is God, not satan, who is behind the releasing of these locusts.

Look further in Revelation 9 and we see the following during the 6th trumpet.

Revelation 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


Look what 21 says. Why would satan want anyone to repent of these things? Only God would desire that they would, except they don't.
The point being, if God is behind these things in verse 17-21 then God is also behind these things involving the locusts and the 5th trumpet events.

 

[Jay Ross]

Wow, people are still trapped in the logical political thinking of the reformation fathers who could not see the trees from the forest and as such could not see the Wicked fallen heavenly hosts influencing the sea of humanity into doing their, i.e. the beasts etc., dirty work.

Oh well, many members are still in La La land.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Christ isn't even the one who places satan in the pit and if you were correct otherwise, there would be no need for an angel to leave heaven to accomplish this nonsense about dominion over satan's spirit anyways. You have everything completely wrong about this.


Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

First, according to who? As long as you say it's "according to" some churches, seminaries, theologians, and ministers? No, the thing is, we should not lean to what some churches, seminaries, theologians, ministers, or even me say. We should always defer to what the Bible itself says since it is our ultimate authority. And I'm sorry for being redundant, but the God-inspired word of God has NEVER said angel. ...Not once! It always uses the Hebrew and Greek word for messenger. This seems to be a fact that you and others choose to ignore so that you can cling to your church mores, conventions, traditions, and customs over undeniable Biblical facts. This is a sectarian religious tradition held over the God-authored tradition of Sola Scriptura.

Matthew 15:2-3

• "Wherefore do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they do not wash their hands when they may eat bread.
• And he answering said to them, `Wherefore also do ye transgress the command of God because of your tradition?"

God's Word says messenger, man's tradition postulates that a certain messenger in any particular instance could be an "angel". But which is the one that is authoritatively authored by God, and which one is a translator's subjective, unobjective, perspective and supposition?

The reason that I believe and declare that the God-authored Hebrew and Greek words [mal'ak] and [aggelos] mean messenger is because the Hebrew and Greek words ...mean messenger! Nothing more complicated than that. Why do you think that literal translations of God's word (e.g., in a Bible like YLT) does not have the word angel in it anywhere? ...could it be because in all of God's inspired word, there is no literal word meaning angel in it? Or do you think they did that because they deviously wanted to eliminate angels from the Bible? A or B, which is it? From studying my Bible, I see it is because there is no word meaning angel in God's text, only the word meaning messenger.

So I am asking how you get the word "angel" in Scripture when there is no word angel in Scripture? Someone like translator, placed that word there, correct? They took out the God-authored word meaning messenger (in any language), and replaced it with a supernatural being that they "theorize" is neither God, Christ, nor man, correct? ...you're not ignoring that biblical fact, are you? We shall see!

Second, how could I have intimated that salvation and redemption are not the issues regarding binding and loosing in Revelation chapter 20, when I have stated repeatedly and very clearly that the binding of Satan "FIRST" was necessary for the salvation and redemption of the gentiles/nations whom were held captive by him. And that only after they were all saved/sealed could Satan be loosed? You seem to want to complicate a matter so simple. I'm simply declaring that the binding of Satan by Christ was Biblically "NECESSARY" in order to loose the prisoners he held captive. Not that Binding satan paid for sins, or washed us clean, or redeemed anyone. As I said, these are different issues, though "intimately related" as scripture is very clear Satan had to be bound for those nations to be sealed. Which is cryptic symbolism signifying the conquering nature of Christ's kingdom going forth against Satan's gates, that barred their freedom.

Luke 11:21-22

• "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
• But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

VERY OBVIOUSLY, Christ is the one stronger than the strong man, Satan. And He is the only one who can overcome Satan (by the victory of the cross), and taken down his armour (his defenses) so that He could spoil or seize his possessions (us) out of his kingdom/palace. I don't find it that complicated. Satan is a defeated foe "as far as the Elect" who were held captive by him are concerned. Sounds like an angel bound Satan here? LOL! No It was Christ, the messenger.

Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

So is it the spirits of Satan's pit that come out and enter into people and become the tormentors of those they enter or are those people just used as tools to torment other unsealed people?

Like how's this all work?

No, no, no. It is not about the ability of the spirits of Satan to enter people as if they are "Satan possessed". That is not what is in view. It was their spirit of disobedience that was restrained but if they end up not being sealed (saved or born again) and Christ has removed his restraining hand, their spirit will become more hardened and evil, making it more difficult for them to receive the Gospel and be saved.

 

[TribulationSigns]

@TribulationSigns are you (at all) tying in the judgment that begins with the house of God (when we are judged or chastened in the present) with being chastened with scorpions?

1 Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

2 Ch 10:14 And answered them after the advice of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add thereto: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

There are two groups in God's House. First, the chosen Elect whom God loved, measured and chastened. The measuring upon the Elect is not a judgment for Lake of Fire, but rather correcting them into repentance. But the professed Christians which is outside the temple yet part of the Holy City are not chosen nor measured (corrected/chastened) but will be judged in the end.

Many are called, few are chosen.

 

[Verily]

No, no, no. It is not about the ability of the spirits of Satan to enter people as if they are "Satan possessed". That is not what is in view. It was their spirit of disobedience that was restrained but if they end up not being sealed (saved or born again) and Christ has removed his restraining hand, their spirit will become more hardened and evil, making it more difficult for them to receive the Gospel and be saved.

Shows many devils in a person for example Luke 8:30 and when it come to giving his disciples power of serpents and scorpions Luke 10:19 and clarifies that he is speaking of spirits in Luke 10:20 And these cast all the same out of others for example Mat 10:8 Not to mention Saul himself was tormented by an evil spirit after the Spirit of God departed from him 1 Sam 16:14 . So it shows spirits in people doing the tormenting, whether in Saul or the others, whether one, or more than one for example Mary had seven devils cast out of her in Mark 16:9

How would any of these be an example of their own spirit of disobedience tormenting their ownselves?

 

[Verily]

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

There are two groups in God's House. First, the chosen Elect whom God loved, measured and chastened. The measuring upon the Elect is not a judgment for Lake of Fire, but rather correcting them into repentance. But the professed Christians which is outside the temple yet part of the Holy City are not chosen nor measured (corrected/chastened) but will be judged in the end.

Many are called, few are chosen.

You have any more verses that connects the judgment of the house of God as you speak of it (since we know that when we are judged we are actually chastened of the Lord that we should not be condemned with the world. And since judgment begins we us how this particular judgment (or chastening as it is) works itself out through the who scorpion picture.

Judgment of the house of God

1 Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The judgment pertains to chastisement, whereas here these young men suggest chastisement with scorpions

2 Ch 10:14 And answered them after the advice of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add thereto: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The locusts come out to torment those that don't have the seal of God.

True.

In what way would false prophets and false christs be tormenting those those that don't have the seal of God? The text says they are tormented for 5 months wishing to die but death flees from them. Your interpretation doesn't even remotely help make sense of any of this. IOW, your interpretation is not on the same page with what John saw at the time.

And why would satan be attacking his own ppl via these locusts? After all, anyone that doesn't have the seal of God would already be in satan's camp. Therefore, it is God, not satan, who is behind the releasing of these locusts.

A little background on the king of the Bottomless pit first...

Revelation 9:11

• "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."

Actually, Satan is not an angel, he is a spirit the "messenger" of evil, and Apollyon (or Abaddon) is Satan, that very same spirit and king ruling over the deceived. Satan doesn't give command to Apollyon, Satan "IS" Apollyon. That word means destruction, and that is the epitome of what he does here. He is the king or ruler of this spiritual army from the abyss, and what he brings is death to these people. This Hebrew word [abaddon] only occurs here in the New Testament and 5 times in the Old Testament (Job 26:6; 28:22; 31:12; Psalm 88:11; Prov 15:11 ) and always relates to death, which this messenger from hell/hades brings to the unfaithful congregation (those in it who are not truly sealed).

Satan's interest is absolutely in attacking the church, and in Revelation 20 when he is loosened, God makes that point even more abundantly clear. It's the evil spirit Satan's "whole persona" and reason for existence. He is the absolute quintessential adversary of the church, not the world which is his domain. The world is his own, it's already his kingdom that he's not fighting against because a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. The word of God encourages us to make our calling and election sure not because Satan has no interest in attacking the church, but because that is his whole character, his entire modus operandi. Satan isn't loosed to attack his own kingdom, but as judgment upon the unfaithful church, just as in the old Testament God loosed wicked empires upon Israel as judgment for their rebellions. The fact is, the judgment and apostasy comes specifically because Satan is loosed by God upon a rebellious church that will not receive His truth in the love wherewith it was given. Apostasy is a falling away of the church, not a falling away of the world. The world is already fallen.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-11

• "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
• And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
• That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The false Christs and false prophets that come to deceive are attacking the church, and who do they deceive there? Under rule of the Apollyon, the great destroyer Satan, they bring the rebellious church to desolation by deceiving those men within it that do not have the seal of God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:2-3

• "And I saw another messenger ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four messengers, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
• Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

That's the whole reason Satan was bound in the bottomless pit, so that He could not go forth deceiving the nations until after the 144,000 of Israel (symbolically all and every believers) were all sealed (secured) with the Spirit of promise. But once the church has done its job, their testimony finished, then he is loosed as "locusts" upon the grass. The point being NOT until God has sealed/saved everyone that He intends to save FIRST!

For example, those who claimed to be part of God's Church have not made their calling and election sure (2nd Peter 1:10). God brings this spiritual judgment of delusion upon His Temple because these are those who would not receive the love of truth (2nd Thessalonians 2:12), instead getting their pleasure from unrighteousness. The destroyer comes up against the camp of the saints, not his own camp and his own people and his own kingdom.

I understand that the wicked are already ruled over by Satan, they are his slaves, they are fully in bondage to him and his will they will do. Satan is not loosed to attack them, he is attacking his adversary by deceiving those in the house of God who call themselves of the Kingdom of Christ, but who lack the seal (security) of God. Thus he thinks to bring the kingdom down by infiltration.

This is a spiritual battle of kingdom against Kingdom, nation against nation, family against family, the generation of evil against the generation of righteousness, warfare of the wicked against the camp of the saints, the house of God--not his own house.

Matthew 12:25

• "And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:"

So again, Satan isn't attacking his own kingdom (world). And indeed as Christ illustrated this, the congregation of national Israel was brought to desolation specifically because it was a kingdom divided against and at war with itself. The election thus come out of her (the harlot church) standing far off, while those who were not sealed of the Spirit of redemption are brought to desolation within. The evil spirits were, are and always will be at war with the congregation, for that is its adversary, not its own kingdom, its own house, its own army or its own people. The interpretation presented here has Satan's army loosed to go forth to conquer a camp that he already rules over. That doesn't ring true or Biblical. He gathers together his people as an army and goes up against the camp of the saints, God's congregation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You have any more verses that connects the judgment of the house of God as you speak of it (since we know that when we are judged we are actually chastened of the Lord that we should not be condemned with the world. And since judgment begins we us how this particular judgment (or chastening as it is) works itself out through the who scorpion picture.

Judgment of the house of God

1 Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The judgment pertains to chastisement, whereas here these young men suggest chastisement with scorpions

2 Ch 10:14 And answered them after the advice of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add thereto: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

When did God start chasten His people exactly? You misunderstood this thinking it is "the" judgment of the House of the Lord. No. God judges and chasten His people throughout time just as the Lord correct his people with his rod, Revelation 11:1-2. This has nothing to do with the judgment of the whore (upon the wicked believers of the congregation).

 

[Verily]

If you exchange the word messenger here

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

With the word angel and write out this way here

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Knowing this is speaking of Jesus, it says written out this way

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, (angel of the covenant) who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

And written out this way

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus (messenger of the covenant) who was made a little lower than the messengers for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

If Jesus is the messenger of the covenant he was made lower than the other messengers (for the suffering of death). Insisting on messengers (according to their office) does not touch upon their nature (they do not die). Christ, the messenger of the covenant is said to have been made lower than these sorts of messengers (being angels according to their natures) and being made lower than them for the suffering of death.

 

[Verily]

When did God start chasten His people exactly? You misunderstood this thinking it is "the" judgment of the House of the Lord. No. God judges and chasten His people throughout time just as the Lord correct his people with his rod, Revelation 11:1-2. This has nothing to do with the judgment of the whore (upon the wicked believers of the congregation).

Right, judgment begins at Gods house and we are chastened in the present

2 Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Timtofly]

Christ and his army of Saints will not come down to the air to "kill" people on Earth. Not only that the "alive and remain" Elect will meet with the Lord in the air, Christ also is going to resurrect all the unsaved dead, along with the "alive and remain" unsaved people on Earth for Judgment Day. Those people are the beast and the false prophet (not two individuals) who will cast out into the Lake of Fire. So no, Christ won't "kill" them on Earth in Revelation 19.

There is nothing in Revelation 19 about the resurrection of unsaved dead.

How can you add that to the context of all are dead and Satan is bound? You claim this is a first century event. When were the unsaved dead resurrected and judged (cast into the LOF) in the first century at the same time Satan is bound?

 

[Timtofly]

If Satan is completely incapacitated during the millennium then the light of the gospel is shining on everyone and Revelation 20:9 is part of the gospel. From Matthew 24:24 we know it’s impossible to deceive the elect, so I suppose the number of unsaved during the millennium would be as the sands of the sea yet they would know without a doubt that they will be devoured by fire, right?

Saying there are unsaved during the Millennium is not Biblical, nor logical.

That would be like saying Eve was unsaved, but Adam was saved. You say Eve would be unsaved because she was deceived. Adam could not be deceived therefore, elect abs saved.

Neither were in a condition of salvation nor lack therefore, as there was no death, prior to Adam's disobedience.

Claiming people have to be unsaved or lost during the Millennium is absurd. No such condition can exist, if no on is in a state of death.

We cannot be in the thousand year period described in Revelation 20. All on earth are born into and constantly live in a state of death. Death will be removed as one's physical state, thus no one is lost nor unsaved, because no one will be in a state of physical death like we are now.

All can be deceived at the end, because all will be equally physically the same, and no one will know Satan, other than perhaps the first generation, when Satan was bound in the pit. All will be like Adam and Eve without the knowledge of sin, deception, nor physical death.

 

[Davidpt]

Saying there are unsaved during the Millennium is not Biblical, nor logical.

That would be like saying Eve was unsaved, but Adam was saved. You say Eve would be unsaved because she was deceived. Adam could not be deceived therefore, elect abs saved.

Neither were in a condition of salvation nor lack therefore, as there was no death, prior to Adam's disobedience.

Claiming people have to be unsaved or lost during the Millennium is absurd. No such condition can exist, if no on is in a state of death.

We cannot be in the thousand year period described in Revelation 20. All on earth are born into and constantly live in a state of death. Death will be removed as one's physical state, thus no one is lost nor unsaved, because no one will be in a state of physical death like we are now.

All can be deceived at the end, because all will be equally physically the same, and no one will know Satan, other than perhaps the first generation, when Satan was bound in the pit. All will be like Adam and Eve without the knowledge of sin, deception, nor physical death.

Actually, you are the one being absurd here. As if, after the millennium, the ones that are devoured by fire, these are meaning the saved rather than the unsaved. These people just don't come out of nowhere all of a sudden. If they are present after the millennium they are obviously also present during the millennium.

 

[Douggg]

Saying there are unsaved during the Millennium is not Biblical, nor logical.

There will be persons who will be born during the millennium, and die during the millennium - although the life spans will be longer.

Everyone born during the millennium will have to embrace Jesus and the gospel of salvation in order to be saved - just as now.

 

[TribulationSigns]

There will be person who will be born during the millennium, and die during the millennium - although the life spans will be longer.

Everyone born during the millennium will have to embrace Jesus and the gospel of salvation in order to be saved - just as now.

Just like the Millennial Kingdom right now, through the Church. LOL! Your future 1,000 year millennial kingdom is false. Not going to happen. We have the gospel now. People are being born again (first Resurrection). It ends when Christ returns. Period.

 

[ewq1938]

Just like the Millennial Kingdom right now, through the Church. LOL! Your future 1,000 year millennial kingdom is false. Not going to happen. We have the gospel now. People are being born again (first Resurrection).

Now and for a long time everything has been as it always has. The real Millennium is a global change like immortal saints ruling with a returned Jesus etc.

The first resurrection of Rev 20 is the first group of the dead to resurrect, while the rest of the dead resurrects at the GWTJ.

It ends when Christ returns. Period.

You are trying too hard which is a sign that you are wrong and compensating. Never say something wrong, then double down by saying, "Period."

 

[Timtofly]

Actually, you are the one being absurd here. As if, after the millennium, the ones that are devoured by fire, these are meaning the saved rather than the unsaved. These people just don't come out of nowhere all of a sudden. If they are present after the millennium they are obviously also present during the millennium.

None are partitioned as saved or lost. All are exactly the same. All can be deceived, but not all will be.

It is Satan who suddenly appears, not humanity. People will be deceived because they listen to a new thing coming from Satan.

 

[Timtofly]

There will be persons who will be born during the millennium, and die during the millennium - although the life spans will be longer.

Everyone born during the millennium will have to embrace Jesus and the gospel of salvation in order to be saved - just as now.

No, that is not the point of the Millennial Kingdom. The point of the kingdom is obedience. Life is not the result of obedience. Death is the result of disobedience.


Currently we are born as dead. We need to be obedient to obtain life.


In the millennium, all will have life, equally, without a state of death. The point will be to remain obedient. A disobedient child will be considered abnormal. One act of disobedience will result in eternal death, in the LOF.

If you view the millennium as the current way of Adam's death still reigning, you may as well be an amil or post mill adherent.

All of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will be physically destroyed at Armageddon if not before. The beheaded of Revelation 20 are the last to be redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. No one will transfer sin and death via Adam's dead corruptible flesh into the millennium. No one who disobeys during the millennium will transfer sin and death onto any offspring. You are not interpreting Isaiah 65 correctly.

 

[Douggg]

Currently we are born as dead. We need to be obedient to obtain life.

Tim, all humans that are apart from Christ, are dead in their trespasses and sins. But all humans in Christ have eternal life, for it is a free gift from God, by grace, not from works.

In the millennium, all will have life, equally, without a state of death. The point will be to remain obedient. A disobedient child will be considered abnormal. One act of disobedience will result in eternal death, in the LOF.

Those in millennium who have returned with Christ, having been raptured/resurrected before the Great Tribulation begins, will be in their everlasting life state.

There will many entering the millennium in their mortal bodies, although Christians, such as the Jews in Zechariah 14 who will flee through the valley when Jesus returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half. Zechariah 14:4-5.

Thus there will be generations who will be born and die during the thousand years. Those who turn to Jesus for atonement of their sins, during their lives, although they will die during the thousand years will be resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgement to eternal life, as part of the resurrection of the rest of the dead.

All of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will be physically destroyed at Armageddon if not before.

No, there will be persons entering the millennium in their natural descended from Adam's flesh. Such as the Jews who will flee through the valley created when Jesus returns to stand on the mount of Olives splitting it in half. Zechariah 14:4-5.