Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[face2face]

John 5:37
the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me.
You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

again, how do you not know that the Word that was Elohim is the SAME Lord who is SEEN and HEARD

Again you know not His Brilliance - yes a reflection was seen and heard but not the Original! 1 Tim 6:16

 

[marks]

Marks couldn't interpret Revelation 3:12 and apply it to this OT prophecies if Jesus himself was to come down and spell it out to him!

Nevermind, I forget your oft expressed contempt, and it's simply not interesting. It's not good conversation. It just shows what is in you.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Hardly!

Much love!

What a weak response after all those wonderful facts!

This your response is coming from a cloud without water...and coming from one who wants to study the deeper things of God's Word?

Wow.

 

[face2face]

Nevermind, I forget your oft expressed contempt, and it's simply not interesting. It just shows what is in you.

Much love!

It's the ignorance Marks, it pours from your posts and then you drift away into the shadows only to return having learnt nothing.

Much love!

F2F

 

[face2face]

@marks remember post #2102!
I believe that, God willing, there will come a time when this revelation will break through the barriers of your understanding and challenge the defiance in your mind. A scales falling off moment!
Until then, we must continue to address the contradictions in your belief in the Trinity.

F2F

 

[marks]

It's the ignorance Marks, it pours from your posts and then you drift away into the shadows only to return having learnt nothing.

Much love!

F2F

Nah. You dump that stuff on lots of folks.

You should just own your own behavior. That seems like a very unpopular thing these days.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

14:3 Then the Lord will go to battle and fight against those nations, just as he fought battles in ancient days (Exod 15:3) Zec 14:3.

For those sincere believers seeking the truth, what do we observe in Zechariah that truly reflects the reality of what will unfold?

Christ and the Saints become Yahweh's "Man of War!"

Isaiah 55:4 (ESV):
"Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander for the peoples."

Habakkuk 3:11 (ESV):
"The sun and moon stood still in their place at the light of your arrows as they sped, at the flash of your glittering spear."

Revelation 19:11-16 (ESV):
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness, he judges and makes war.
12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.
13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he (Christ and the Saints) will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."

Christ and the True Saints with the Sword of the Spirit coming out of His Mouth to strike down those defiant nations who oppress His People.

When my Lord comes you all will be without excuse having been shown the Commander of Peoples, Yahweh's Man of War and His Saints.

What will happen?

Well, the earth will witness manifestations of Divine power as it did in ages past. The silence of centuries will be broken as the roar of Judah's lion (Christ!) is heard (Isaiah 42:14, 17:12-14). In times past, Yahweh revealed Himself with vengence through His heavenly host (Exodus 23:20, Joshua 5:14, 10:14, 23:3, Judges 4:15). In the future, He will do so through the Christ and the Saints , who will be clothed with Divine nature and made equal to the angels (Luke 20:36).

The name of this future army will be Yahweh of Hosts, or He Who will be manifested in an army.

Trinitarians have zero knowledge of this Army or it's function because they have been deceived with strong delusion.

In time you may see and hear these things if God is willing

F2F

 

[face2face]

Nah. You dump that stuff on lots of folks.

You should just own your own behavior. That seems like a very unpopular thing these days.

Much love!

Yeah, nah – you're being quite transparent, Marks! What have you really contributed here? What rebuttal or scriptural insight have you provided to demonstrate an understanding of Zechariah 14?

Could the issue be that you have a desire to know and understand more of the Word, but you are unwilling to be taught?

Can you speak to Revelation 3:12, Marks? How does that connect to the Army of the Lord? Can you demonstrate an understanding of the end times, particularly how Christ will return to establish His Kingdom and sit upon His Father David's throne?

If not I must kick the dust off and move onto those who are willing to study to show themselves approved unto God and workmen that is not ashamed.

Much love!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Judah's Lion is not God!

Revelation 5:5 (ESV)
"And one of the elders said to me, 'Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.'

Isaiah 31:4 (ESV)
"For thus the Lord said to me, 'As a lion or a young lion growls over his prey, and when a band of shepherds is called out against him, he is not terrified by their shouting or daunted at their noise, so the Lord of hosts will come down to fight on Mount Zion and on its hill.'"

Isaiah 42:14 (ESV):
"For a long time I have held my peace; I have kept still and restrained myself. Now I will cry out like a woman in labor; I will gasp and pant.

Isaiah 17:12-14 (ESV):
12 Woe to the multitude of many people who roar like the roaring of the seas, and to the rushing of nations that roar like the rushing of mighty waters! 13 The nations roar like the roaring of many waters, but he will rebuke them, and they will flee far away,
chased like chaff on the mountains before the wind, and whirling dust before the storm. 14 At evening time, behold, terror! Before morning, they are no more. This is the portion of those who loot us, and the lot of those who plunder us.

The Roar of the Nations met with the Roar of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah!

It was foretold forum members but what did you do to this verse?

Isaiah 9:7 (ESV)

"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this."

The question is this: Will I be a part of the Zeal of the Lord of hosts, or will I remain weak and miserable, bound by the misunderstanding of the Trinity?

Who is on the Lords side?

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

Again you know not His Brilliance - yes a reflection was seen and heard but not the Original! 1 Tim 6:16

Again, you know not that Hebrews is speaking of the Word that became flesh = His Incarnation

You are willfully ignorant of the Word being Elohim BEFORE HE came down to earth.

Hebrews 10:5
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said = Psalm 40 = read it

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

Psalm 40
Blessed is that man who makes the Lord his trust,
And does not respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
5Many, O Lord my God, are Your wonderful works
Which You have done;
And Your thoughts toward us
Cannot be recounted to You in order;
If I would declare and speak of them,
They are more than can be numbered.
6Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
7Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

 

[face2face]

But a body You have prepared for Me.

What type of Body David?
And what did God do to that Body?
And why did He do that to that Body?
What was removed from that Body?

 

[APAK]

Who does Zecharaiah chapter 12 speak of???

I will give you a little more that who, ...with more of what and why it was said.//

Verses 10 – 11 Christ shall be mourned throughout Judea, and they will be saved​

YHWH shall pour out his own spirit of grace upon the people of Judea and they shall have deep reverence for him. After they metaphorically pierce YHWH because of their literal piercing of his Son they shall wail as if their only son was dead as YHWH’s only son did actually die; eventhough only for a number of days. See Rev 1:7 ‘and they that pierced him.’

YHWH has a Messiah, his Son for mankind indeed - read John 10:11, Matt 26:31, 2:6; 9:6 and Hebrews 13:20.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. (Jewish Publication Society.)

They use the term ‘et asher’ quite differently for English Trinitarian translations. Instead of translating the words as "look upon me whom" as Trinitarians do, they translate these Hebrew words as ‘because (they) of those who(m)’ or ‘regarding (they) those whom’ or ‘concerning (they) whom.’


“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.” (RSV)

Hebrews 1:1-2 says Jesus never spoke in the OT as YHWH did through his prophets. So those that believe that Jesus spoke in the OT, have no support for this claim.

Jesus was not yet born!

(John 19:37) And again another scripture says: They shall look on him whom they pierced. (NEV)

Not any proof for any incarnation of God either...

Translators and commentators who believe that the word “pierced” should refer back to the pronoun “him” cite textual variants that more clearly read “him,” as well as the flow of the sentence which continues with the word “him” in the phrase “they shall mourn for him” and “grieve bitterly for him.” The Jewish understanding of this verse has always been that the one pierced was one in an intimate relationship with God, but there is no record of any early Judean/Jewish commentator understanding Zechariah 12:10 to be saying that somehow YHWH Himself would come into the flesh and be pierced in the literal sense of the word. [1]

It's impossible for the immortal God Almighty Himself to be pierced literally and die!

The mourning of Christ’s death will be very great, throughout the land of Judea.

////

 

[David in NJ]

What type of Body David?
And what did God do to that Body?
And why did He do that to that Body?
What was removed from that Body?

BELIEVE His words

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

[face2face]

BELIEVE His words

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

you answered none of my questions!

What type of Body David?
And what did God do to that Body?
And why did He do that to that Body?
What was removed from that Body?

 

[David in NJ]

you answered none of my questions!

What type of Body David?
And what did God do to that Body?
And why did He do that to that Body?
What was removed from that Body?

Your questions are always answered.

You choose to remain in unbelief.

I will give you a little more that who, ...with more of what and why it was said.//

Verses 10 – 11 Christ shall be mourned throughout Judea, and they will be saved​

YHWH shall pour out his own spirit of grace upon the people of Judea and they shall have deep reverence for him. After they metaphorically pierce YHWH because of their literal piercing of his Son they shall wail as if their only son was dead as YHWH’s only son did actually die; eventhough only for a number of days. See Rev 1:7 ‘and they that pierced him.’

YHWH has a Messiah, his Son for mankind indeed - read John 10:11, Matt 26:31, 2:6; 9:6 and Hebrews 13:20.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. (Jewish Publication Society.)

They use the term ‘et asher’ quite differently for English Trinitarian translations. Instead of translating the words as "look upon me whom" as Trinitarians do, they translate these Hebrew words as ‘because (they) of those who(m)’ or ‘regarding (they) those whom’ or ‘concerning (they) whom.’


“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.” (RSV)

Hebrews 1:1-2 says Jesus never spoke in the OT as YHWH did through his prophets. So those that believe that Jesus spoke in the OT, have no support for this claim.

Jesus was not yet born!

(John 19:37) And again another scripture says: They shall look on him whom they pierced. (NEV)

Not any proof for any incarnation of God either...

Translators and commentators who believe that the word “pierced” should refer back to the pronoun “him” cite textual variants that more clearly read “him,” as well as the flow of the sentence which continues with the word “him” in the phrase “they shall mourn for him” and “grieve bitterly for him.” The Jewish understanding of this verse has always been that the one pierced was one in an intimate relationship with God, but there is no record of any early Judean/Jewish commentator understanding Zechariah 12:10 to be saying that somehow YHWH Himself would come into the flesh and be pierced in the literal sense of the word. [1]

It's impossible for the immortal God Almighty Himself to be pierced literally and die!

The mourning of Christ’s death will be very great, throughout the land of Judea.

////

YHWH shall pour out his own spirit of grace upon the people of Judea and they shall have deep reverence for him. After they metaphorically pierce YHWH because of their literal piercing of his Son they shall wail as if their only son was dead as YHWH’s only son did actually die; eventhough only for a number of days. See Rev 1:7 ‘and they that pierced him.’

The Scripture in Zechariah is not written in allegory or metaphorically.

The Scriptures in Zechariah ch12 are LITERAL and the LITERAL Truth is confirmed in the Gospel and Revelation chapter 1 and Rev ch19

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.
And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Zechariah ch14 - Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,

Rev ch19 -
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse.
And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

Zechariah 14 - And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you.
And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

 

[face2face]

Your questions are always answered.

Not one of them were answered and an attempt to use the Epistles to answer them, fail.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Why do Trinitarians exclude themselves from God's name?

 

[RLT63]

Why do Trinitarians exclude themselves from God's name?

I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[face2face]

I don't know what you're talking about.

In this thread, it seems clear that Trinitarians are so fixated on the concept of plurality that they’re unable to see the bigger picture. Perhaps their intense desire to find proof for their doctrine is causing them to miss the overarching narrative entirely.

No doubt you have seen how the context (broader narrative) defines the meaning of the verse, passage, chapter or book! I understand why you would not agree - its an observation that's all.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@RLT63 This is said in the context of Zech 14 "Yahweh my Elohim". Because their focus in on 3 they miss the innumerable number.

F2F