Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[CadyandZoe]

Wrangler said, "1. The trinity is not in Scripture" (he was referring to the Holy Trinity). I know what he was trying to say, but the way he worded his statement didn't convey that, so I responded to his statement accodingly by citing Matt. 28:19 and highlighted the following words in bold: "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit", to show him that the Holy Trinity is in Scripture, which isn't defining the Holy Trinity as you assert.

Were you not attempting to prove that the Trinity is in scripture?

 

[Ritajanice]

No, I am not saying that the birth of Jesus wasn't accomplished by divine intervention. That is true, and I agree with that.

I'm explaining why Jesus is referred to as "the Son of God." This title does not imply that he is the second person of the Trinity or that he has a biological relationship with God. Instead, Jesus is called the Son of God because all kings descended from David were given this title. This title comes from the Davidic covenant as written in 2 Samuel 7.

Jesus had a spiritual relationship with God, via his Spirit, a Living Spiritual relationship.

2 Samuel 7:12-17 When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever.”’” In accordance with all these words and all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.​

He shall build a house for my name..a Spiritual house?

The Living Stone
4As you come to Him, the living stone, rejected by men but chosen and precious in God’s sight, 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holypriesthood, offering spiritual sacrificesacceptable to God through Jesus Christ.6For it stands in Scripture: “See, I lay in Zion a stone, a chosen and precious cornerstone; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”…

What sort of Son was Jesus to God?

How did he and by what means did he relate to his Father GOD.?

he will be a son to me.
God tells David that he will have a son who will build the temple. He explains that if this son commits wrongdoing, He will correct him. This passage clearly refers to Solomon, who indeed built the temple. Additionally, we learn from various scriptures that God considered every king from the line of David to be His son. In this sense, they were all considered sons of God. Jesus is called "son of God" because he is a king in the line of David. The title was given to all human kings of Israel who were born into David's family line.

Jesus was a different Son Of God, he was Born by Gods divine intervention...so how did the others become Gods Sons?

Jesus was a King in his own right..none of those Sons of God we’re like Jesus, he was Born by divine intervention...grew from what in Mary’s womb?

Wasn’t Mary’s egg impregnated by the Living word of God?

What does God say about what comes out of his mouth?

Isaiah 55:11KJV. so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it

How was Jesus conceived if not by divine intervention?

But Jesus is not just any ordinary man. John teaches us that Jesus is "the one-of-a-kind" son (mistranslated as "only begotten) because unlike every other Davidic King, Jesus alone is sinless and he is uniquely qualified to represent God to us.

Jesus was sinless because he was divine and was in complete harmony with the Living Spirit Of God, thats how he related to his Father Spirit to Spirit, heart to heart...Jesus spoke from his Father’s heart?

Jesus always spoke from the heart/ Spirit of his Father, he never spoke of his own accord.

John 12:49-50New King James Version (NKJV) For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

Would you like to know where the phrase "son of man" comes from?

Thanks for the offer, you can explain if you like, I may not be ready to understand what it means yet, I only can understand when it’s in God’s timing, I understand in my spirit, by divine heart revelation @CadyandZoe ..God always communicates with me via the Spirit, my opinion and belief.

I wait on the Spirit to bring scripture to my understanding...that has always been my belief for the past 33 yrs..I know nothing without the Spirit bringing the word to my understanding...again that has always been my belief.

 

[ProDeo]

So its bumping up time Scott. Can you answer my post #2025, again.

Still trying to change the history of almost 2000 years Christianity changing the Scriptures to your own beliefs? In John 1:1 the Word=God, not a god, period, not your changed JW bible.

Ignatius and Polycarp, two disciples of the apostle John clearly were outspoken about the divinity of Christ. Both of them, closer to the fire you won't get it.

 

[David in NJ]

Still trying to change the history of almost 2000 years Christianity changing the Scriptures to your own beliefs? In John 1:1 the Word=God, not a god, period, not your changed JW bible.

Ignatius and Polycarp, two disciples of the apostle John clearly were outspoken about the divinity of Christ. Both of them, closer to the fire you won't get it.

i have asked @Wrangler @APAK @face2face and all jw's this:

Who does Zecharaiah chapter 12 speak of???

They have all refused to answer...............................!!!

 

[APAK]

Truth and lies, words and actions. I value truth over lies, and I believe someone's actions over their words when they disagree.

Much love!

Now there is something we can agree on marks and move forward with.......

 

[APAK]

Still trying to change the history of almost 2000 years Christianity changing the Scriptures to your own beliefs? In John 1:1 the Word=God, not a god, period, not your changed JW bible.

Ignatius and Polycarp, two disciples of the apostle John clearly were outspoken about the divinity of Christ. Both of them, closer to the fire you won't get it.

Well for the first and the last time ProDeo I want to inform you I'm not a club religious member of any kind and I'm not a JW member either. I would stop sticking my feet in crap from time to time if I were you. The JWs at least they know that Jesus is not God. And that's a giant step into my side of the aisle and corner. That's why I enjoy listening to them from time to time.

And with you, I can barely see your home corner because you believe in an unscriptural nature of God and his Son. It's a false religion that will be revealed for what it is, all in good time.

 

[APAK]

i have asked @Wrangler @APAK @face2face and all jw's this:

Who does Zecharaiah chapter 12 speak of???

They have all refused to answer...............................!!!

Please rephase your statement David. You have not asked me this question yet. And if you did it must have been hidden or smothered within one of your confusing post. So ask me again..thx

 

[ProDeo]

i have asked @Wrangler @APAK @face2face and all jw's this:

Who does Zecharaiah chapter 12 speak of???

They have all refused to answer...............................!!!

Ha, that's a good one indeed.

An unfulfilled prophecy yet to happen, Yahweh speaking of Jesus as His equal.

It gets even better 2 chapters later.

Zach 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.
Zach 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zach 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
Zach 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
Zach 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Since Mount Olives has not split into 2 parts another unfulfilled prophecy yet to happen. Yahweh speaking of Jesus as His equal, Jesus returns. This is so cool, Jesus ascended to heaven from Mount Olives and will return on Mount Olives.

For JW's - Zach 14:5 - Then the LORD my God will come..... oh well, it's Jesus!

 

[ProDeo]

Well for the first and the last time ProDeo I want to inform you I'm not a club religious member of any kind and I'm not a JW member either. I would stop sticking my feet in crap from time to time if I were you. The JWs at least they know that Jesus is not God. And that's a giant step into my side of the aisle and corner. That's why I enjoy listening to them from time to time.

I will try to remember you are not a JW. But why question John 1:1? The Greek is convincing, same Greek words are used for "God" and "Word". Meaning, you have no point. Never was a problem for almost 2000 years and you think you are smarter?

And with you, I can barely see your home corner because you believe in an unscriptural nature of God and his Son. It's a false religion that will be revealed for what it is, all in good time.

That's a statement without content.

 

[APAK]

I will try to remember you are not a JW. But why question John 1:1? The Greek is convincing, same Greek words are used for "God" and "Word". Meaning, you have no point. Never was a problem for almost 2000 years and you think you are smarter?


That's a statement without content.

The thing is PD, what you speak of has always been a problem, and even today as you know, as on this site as an example.

This has never been settled, expect with the pointy end of a spear or sword or the head in a guillotine, or by a crucifixion or by excommunication etc. If you think it has then you are not in the world I live and know. Don't delude yourself into thinking it has, just because you seen lovely buildings for Protestants and Catholics to go to and listen to more BS concerning their man-made models of God. It sounds as though you have be brainwashed, either by outside influences or by yourself as a self-inflicted wound or both.

 

[Pierac]

If Jesus is God, why did He not know when He would return? | GotQuestions.org

If Jesus is God, why did He not know when He would return? Was Jesus not omniscient while He was on earth?

www.gotquestions.org

This is why he Failed in his video....!!!!

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on us as we sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

INCARNA'TION, n. The act of clothing with flesh.

1. The act of assuming flesh, or of taking a human body and the nature of man; as the incarnation of the Son of God.

Can God take on the nature of man? What did Paul say?
Romans 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

However, we know that Jesus was begotten. Yet, not eternally begotten! Which is un-scriptural!

BEGOT', BEGOT'TEN, pp. of get. Procreated; generated.

Now let's look at John 1:10 regarding, the world was made through Him (Jesus).

Joh 1:10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through(dia) Him, and the world knew Him not." 11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not."

To be a Christian means you know that our Lord Jesus is the diameter, the purpose of the universe. His kingdom is coming! This is God's purpose and it will not be frustrated.

Another verse saying the same thing is Hebrews 1:2. It says God has “appointed” His son to be the “heir of all things” and that it was “through him that he made the world'(s). Here our translations are not quite accurate, what the author wrote was not that through Jesus God made the world(s) but ages. God planned to complete His purpose for all creation through the agency of his son Jesus. The preposition that is used in relation to Jesus and the world, or the ages, is “through” (Greek dia from which you will see comes our English word diameter).

Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

“The world was made through him,” i.e. with Christ in mind.

In the light of this background, it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, and a reason by which he brought all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who He is.

CLV(John 1:1)
In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."

 

[ProDeo]

The thing is PD, what you speak of has always been a problem, and even today as you know, as on this site as an example.

This has never been settled, expect with the pointy end of a spear or sword or the head in a guillotine, or by a crucifixion or by excommunication etc. If you think it has then you are not in the world I live and know. Don't delude yourself into thinking it has, just because you seen lovely buildings for Protestants and Catholics to go to and listen to more BS concerning their man-made models of God. It sounds as though you have be brainwashed, either by outside influences or by yourself as a self-inflicted wound or both.

Sorry brother, it's my understanding of Scripture what has convinced me, nothing to with the things you wrongly suggested. And don't make things personal, it's a sign of defeat.

 

[APAK]

This is why he Failed in his video....!!!!

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on us as we sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

INCARNA'TION, n. The act of clothing with flesh.

1. The act of assuming flesh, or of taking a human body and the nature of man; as the incarnation of the Son of God.

Can God take on the nature of man? What did Paul say?
Romans 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

However, we know that Jesus was begotten. Yet, not eternally begotten! Which is un-scriptural!

BEGOT', BEGOT'TEN, pp. of get. Procreated; generated.

Now let's look at John 1:10 regarding, the world was made through Him (Jesus).

Joh 1:10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through(dia) Him, and the world knew Him not." 11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not."

To be a Christian means you know that our Lord Jesus is the diameter, the purpose of the universe. His kingdom is coming! This is God's purpose and it will not be frustrated.

Another verse saying the same thing is Hebrews 1:2. It says God has “appointed” His son to be the “heir of all things” and that it was “through him that he made the world'(s). Here our translations are not quite accurate, what the author wrote was not that through Jesus God made the world(s) but ages. God planned to complete His purpose for all creation through the agency of his son Jesus. The preposition that is used in relation to Jesus and the world, or the ages, is “through” (Greek dia from which you will see comes our English word diameter).

Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

“The world was made through him,” i.e. with Christ in mind.

In the light of this background, it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, and a reason by which he brought all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who He is.

CLV(John 1:1)
In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."

Well written, clear in thought and in logical progression.....hats off to you.

The source of all life is God, the Father, amen and glory to him forever!

 

[David in NJ]

Ha, that's a good one indeed.

An unfulfilled prophecy yet to happen, Yahweh speaking of Jesus as His equal.

It gets even better 2 chapters later.

Zach 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.
Zach 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zach 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
Zach 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
Zach 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Since Mount Olives has not split into 2 parts another unfulfilled prophecy yet to happen. Yahweh speaking of Jesus as His equal, Jesus returns. This is so cool, Jesus ascended to heaven from Mount Olives and will return on Mount Olives.

For JW's - Zach 14:5 - Then the LORD my God will come..... oh well, it's Jesus!

YEPPER!!!

 

[face2face]

i have asked @Wrangler @APAK @face2face and all jw's this:

Who does Zecharaiah chapter 12 speak of???

They have all refused to answer...............................!!!

First I've seen this.

Would you like to explain what you think Zech 12 speaks of?

 

[David in NJ]

Please rephase your statement David. You have not asked me this question yet. And if you did it must have been hidden or smothered within one of your confusing post. So ask me again..thx

Who does Zecharaiah chapter 12 speak of???

 

[face2face]

YEPPER!!!

@ProDeo You guys are quite amusing as you scour the Scriptures searching for your cherished Trinity. It seems we've moved past the NT and are now working our way back into the Old Testament.

Then you will escape through my mountain valley, for the mountains will extend to Azal. Indeed, you will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come with all his holy ones with him. Zec 14:5.

"Yahweh my Elohim" indicates Yahweh manifesting in a multitude, even in the Saints of Christ. The character of the people comprising this host is revealed in the word "saints." They will form a body of people set apart from the world, dedicated to Yahweh—honored and glorified members of those whom the Gospel has called "out of the Gentiles, a people for His name" (Acts 15:14).

David, this is an excellent verse to demonstrate how Christ will come in His Father's name, accompanied by those with him, the Saints.

Did you notice that? "holy ones with him"

No longer do we have an Angel bearing the Yahweh name but the Lord Jesus Christ and His Saints.

It's a beautiful prophecy.

Of course you don't believe this is Yahweh Himself coming to Earth lol if you did you would look rather silly!

F2F

 

[Pierac]

How do you not know these things?

@amigo de christo View attachment 56200

I am the Alpha and the Omega.

This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.

Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. David called King Saul My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).

Israel’s Judges were called “saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).

Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)

Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.

Examples:
John 17:3

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Revelation 1:6

"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

John 20:17

"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For John, Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."

Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.

It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89: 28 - 30.

Secondly, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:

“I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."

This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1: 18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God.

How do you not know these thing???

 

[David in NJ]

@ProDeo You guys are quite amusing as you scour the Scriptures searching for your cherished Trinity. It seems we've moved past the NT and are now working our way back into the Old Testament.

Then you will escape through my mountain valley, for the mountains will extend to Azal. Indeed, you will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come with all his holy ones with him. Zec 14:5.

"Yahweh my Elohim" indicates Yahweh manifesting in a multitude, even in the Saints of Christ. The character of the people comprising this host is revealed in the word "saints." They will form a body of people set apart from the world, dedicated to Yahweh—honored and glorified members of those whom the Gospel has called "out of the Gentiles, a people for His name" (Acts 15:14).

David, this is an excellent verse to demonstrate how Christ will come in His Father's name, accompanied by those with him, the Saints.

Did you notice that? "holy ones with him"

No longer do we have an Angel bearing the Yahweh name but the Lord Jesus Christ and His Saints.

It's a beautiful prophecy.

Of course you don't believe this is Yahweh Himself coming to Earth lol if you did you would look rather silly!

F2F

Of course you don't believe this is Yahweh Himself coming to Earth lol if you did you would look rather silly!

So you find TRUTH as "laughable"

 

[face2face]

@David in NJ & @ProDeo

Can you bring your minds to the next verse?

On that day there will be no light—the sources of light in the heavens will congeal. It will happen in one day (a day known to the Lord (Yahweh)); not in the day or the night, but in the evening there will be light. Zec 14:6-7

This is His day, the time when He will be vindicated before all flesh, and His purpose in creation will begin to be realized. It will not be fully completed until the end of Christ's thousand-year reign (1 Cor 15:28).

Throughout the world, Yahweh will be honored and glorified.

I just wanted to make sure you understand the difference between "Yahweh my Elohim" and "Yahweh"

Christ will come in His Fathers Name with his Saints to establish a Kingdom on Earth and this Kingdom will be Yahweh's Day! The Day when He (singular) is Glorified in the Earth once and for all.

If you both want to study in this chapter privately let me know - a great deal to learn about end times!

F2F