The Rise, Degeneration, and Fall of Post-Apostolic Tradition.

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FearTheLord

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Someone recently shared with me a lengthy sermon on the need for widespread reformation within the local churches, and a return to pastor-centered authority. I have some very strong views surrounding these issues based on my understanding of Christian history, in contrast to what the New Testament actually says.

There have been no legitimate church authorities since Jesus gathered up the elect in 70 AD. The forces holding Christians together into a "church" after the Apostolic Age have been a precarious blend of circumstance and pragmatism.

From 70 AD to Constantine, most Christians didn't have access to the scriptures, so they sought out those who did, or those who had the loudest, boldest voices - hence the elevation of the church fathers.

The Roman empire was making it impossible for Christians to integrate into society, so Christians either had to abandon the faith or stick together. Many of them chose suicide by martyrdom, as it was commonly believed that if they turned themselves in to the Roman authorities for execution, they would receive a one-way ticket to heaven.


From Constantine's legalization of Christianity until around the 1200s, the scriptures were generally only available during liturgical ceremonies, so Christians had no choice but to participate in local gatherings to hear the word.


Around the 1200s, the Catholic Church decided to read the scriptures in Latin only, which commoners no longer understood by that point. As a result, some people sought local readings of scripture in private homes (the Lollard Movement). By this time, Catholicism was becoming more tyrannical, and church attendance was effectively unavoidable.


Finally, in the 1500s, the Protestant Reformation was able to break free from the Catholic Church and made the scriptures more widely available in subsequent decades. The problem was that the Protestant nations were often just as violent and tyrannical as the Catholic nations.


Now we're in a post-Reformation era: People in the West have basic rights and freedom from state religion, cultures have secularized as they no longer have the authoritarian molds to keep them in a theocratic prison cell,....and most importantly, technology has made the Bible and related resources freely available.

We're essentially entering a time where culture is deconditioned from post-apostolic, authoritarian Christianity, and people are slowly beginning to realize that the sermon/ceremony/worship-service models of church are obsolete. The truth is that the Apostolic Church was never about sermons, ceremonies, or worship-services. It was about loving one another within the parameters of the established apostolic doctrine. Since Christians can't even generally agree upon the full gospel, I just don't see love in deed and truth as a scalable model for the Christian masses.

In conclusion, I don't think there will be another Reformation. I think we're witnessing a permanent dissolution of post-apostolic Christianity, and Christians will become a scattered minority in the world again. This will likely happen as 2030-2033 comes and goes without Jesus returning, leaving a large number of Christians disillusioned and frustrated.
 

ScottA

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What's actually been happening:

The times--these times--of the gentiles, aka the church age, is dedicated to the other fold that Christ "must bring" (John 10:16). This are our days under the sun, wherein we suffer under a similar blindness and restraint as fell upon Israel (for our sake and these times to be fulfilled) Romans 11:25.


Yes, the church age began with the pure gospel of Christ, but it quickly changed. Jesus had "somewhat against" 5 out of 7 churches named in Revelation (Revelation 2); John said that the spirit of anti-Christ was already in the world (1 John 4:3); Peter foretold of "false teachers" entering the church (2 Peter 2:1); and Paul foretold the believing of a "lie" causing "strong delusion" and great apostacy (2 Thessalonians 2:11).

Meanwhile--during the same times, Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide us unto "all truth" (John 16:13), and John prophesied the "finish of the mystery of God as He declared to His servants the prophets" that would come just before the end of time (Revelation 10:7).

What has been going on with all the denominations and the former reformation, is the result of that "lie" foretold by Paul, which has caused everyone to take up their own interpretation of what is true under the restraint by God of "confusion" upon all language since the tower of Babel.

All of which was to play out until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. This is that time.

Under the circumstance, if the church were to learn from the mistakes of Israel--who thinking they had a proper understanding of things--grossly failed, the result of which was crucifying Christ--would be looking for correction of the "lie" and "false teachings" with expectation. But...are we to be found better than Israel was? Not likely.
 

Windmill Charge

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There have been no legitimate church authorities since Jesus gathered up the elect in 70 AD.
Could you explain what you mean by this?

Also Paul speaking to a church leader in 1Timothy1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Note he says ' command '
Church leaders do have authority, they have to if they are to rebukethose needing rebuking.

As for today's culture.
It is post Christian and is rapidly throwing away those elements that have come from Christianity, respect for others, equality in the law, responsibility etc.

Should churches change how they operate?

A major problem, obstacle to change is that summons are an efficient way of teaching and instructing a divers group of believers.
Being involved in a local church is also an good way to encourage others.
 

FearTheLord

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Could you explain what you mean by this?
Also Paul speaking to a church leader in 1Timothy1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Note he says ' command '
Church leaders do have authority, they have to if they are to rebukethose needing rebuking.
What I mean is that Jesus gathered up the elect into the clouds in 70 AD. Heretics, lukewarm believers, and apostates were left behind. So there were no apostles to keep the Church going after 70 AD. Most of what the church fathers wrote was based on speculation.

I agree that the Church did have leaders with authority. What I'm saying is that we're not the Church, and haven't been since 70 AD.
 

FearTheLord

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Any source to support this claim?
Yes.

[Mat 24:29-31 NASB95] 29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

[Mat 24:34 NASB95] 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

[Eph 4:11-13 NASB95] 11 And He gave some [as] apostles, and some [as] prophets, and some [as] evangelists, and some [as] pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

[Rev 1:1-3 NASB95] 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated [it] by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, [even] to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

[Rev 2:25 NASB95] 25 'Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.

[Rev 3:11 NASB95] 11 'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

[Rev 22:6 NASB95] 6 And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

[Rev 22:10 NASB95] 10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
[Rev 22:12 NASB95] 12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward [is] with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

[Rev 22:20 NASB95] 20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

[1Jo 2:18 NASB95] 18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

It's clear to me that these things were meant for the 1st century Church, not us.
 

Windmill Charge

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We weren't left behind. We were all born much later.
Not that we were left behind. If Jesus took All Christians to be with him in ad70.
There would be No Christians to evangelise, preach the gospel etc.
So it follows that we are all non Christians.

Unless your umbilical idea of Jesus taking all Christians in ad 70 is nonsense.
 

Aunty Jane

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Also Paul speaking to a church leader in 1Timothy1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Note he says ' command '
Church leaders do have authority, they have to if they are to rebukethose needing rebuking.
I have to agree here….there has to be leadership in any organized body of people or there would be chaos.
God always delegated leadership responsibilities to carefully chosen men.

Paul wrote in Hebrews 13:17….
”Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.”

Note some important points here….those taking the lead will be accountable to God for how they shepherd, or ‘keep watch’ over the flock. As shepherds they are responsible for the care of Jesus’s sheep, as he is “the Fine Shepherd” who has delegated responsibility to those who willingly take on this role.

We too as their charges, need to “be submissive” to their leadership as long as it is undertaken in the spirit that Christ gave it. They are not our masters, but those assigned to keep the wolves away and to lead the sheep to good pasture and pure waters of truth….and like Jesus, they will spearhead the all important preaching work that was to be undertaken in “all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations” in this time of the end….the time of Christ’s return. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:18-20) In doing so they will be commended by God as “good and faithful servants”.

The other aspect of this leadership is to keep the congregation clean from outside influences and those who would subvert the faith of others with their own ideas.
Paul also told us how these leaders would deal with apostasy or immorality or the breaking of God’s laws in any other way.

1 Cor 5:13-19….
”In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

Authority has been given to discipline those who would disrupt the unity of the congregation.
Discipline in our day is seen as a breach of one’s freedom to do as they wish. And for many in the role of clergy, any attempt to discipline those in his church would usually mean a backlash that would threaten his own security, as those who fill the pews are his bread and butter. We see a steady decline in the number of churches with trained clergy these days, as those who are trained are offered better pay to go elsewhere.
How abhorrent to put money before the welfare of the flock! A true Christian will go wherever they are needed, without a thought of payment….as if Christ’s shepherds can go to the highest bidder?

But we know that is not the way God operates. Those who would unrepentantly flout his laws and introduce false teachings among his flock were to be “removed” by the shepherds. Important too was the fact that no congregation was served by just one man…they had a body of elders who also had assistants. so that the flock was cared for by this body of men. Every congregation member was a precious sheep to Christ, so he made sure there were shepherds to do that job well.

Excommunication means having no fellowship with such ones, on the basis of…”a little leaven ferments the whole lump”….any such divisive influences were to be removed….but always with the hope of repentance and return as Jesus parable of the prodigal son emphasized.
As for today's culture.
It is post Christian and is rapidly throwing away those elements that have come from Christianity, respect for others, equality in the law, responsibility etc.

Should churches change how they operate?
I believe that it is too late for that kind of change, because the disunity already experienced in the church system is deeply entrenched as we see on these boards. Satan has done to Christendom, exactly what he did to Judaism, and Jesus showed that it was irreformable so he taught his disciples how to divorce themselves from that corrupted religious system, which had dictated to God’s people for so long that the leadership got carried away with their own self-importance and forgot who they were supposed to be serving.

The call in Revelation 18:4-5 concerns “Babylon the great”….and it is a decisive action taken by those who see the church system, (and indeed all false worship) as a corrupted mess in God’s eyes, that needs removing….permanently.

”And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people,if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.”

God sees what many do not…the corruption in high places that has largely been concealed from the people down through history, but in “the time of the end” where we find ourselves now, the truth is out…so decisive action must be taken, because any who are found supporting false worship will receive the same punishment as “Babylon the great” does. It is satan’s world empire of false worship….so, all the worship that goes to false gods, goes to the devil by default. God set a time limit for all mankind to escape from that adulterous “city”. Now is the time, more so than ever.

A major problem, obstacle to change is that summons are an efficient way of teaching and instructing a divers group of believers.
Being involved in a local church is also an good way to encourage others.
I guess you have hit another nail on the head here….Christianity is not about “local churches” if such churches are divided against others in their teachings and practices. God’s spirit creates unity his worshippers, it does not divide them doctrinally….so there must be a global brotherhood of Christians in all nations (Acts 10:34-35) who all believe the same truths (1 Cor 1:10) and who are all engaged in the work that Jesus assigned his disciples to do. (Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14)

The end is close, as we see everything in the world changing, but not for the better….satan is not going down without a fight and he will delight in taking as many down with him as he can deceive…..and distract.

There is but one truth, and we have to pray to God to find those who promote it. (John 6:44; 65)
Only he can guide us through the maze. Christ warned us that his true disciples would be hated and persecuted and that they would be a minority in the world. (John 15:17-21; Matt 7:13-14) So they will not be found in “mainstream” Christendom, which basically all teach Roman Catholic doctrines.

“Seek and you will find”…..