Claimed prophetic fulfillment seems highly questionable. - Were they acquired rather than intended?

[St. SteVen]

It's right there in the middle of the oldest book in the Bible...

Deu 18:20-22
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Isn't that a reference to short-term events prophesied that fail to come to pass.
A prophecy for something far off in the future shouldn't be discounted. Example:

Acts 2:16-21 NIV
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[a]

--- COMPARE ---

Joel 2:28-32 NIV
“And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.[a]

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Of course. I’m not the one sifting through deciding which ones are authentic messianic prophecies and which are not.

I have given examples that any reasonable person could see a problem with.
But some (many?) are too uncomfortable (fearful?) to give these things an HONEST look.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

The idea here is that the Apostles took the words of the prophets and applied them to their everyday lives. To do that, they applied them outside of the context of the verses, and outside of the original author's intent. I.e. they used Scripture in a way that most churches tell us not to. My position is that the Apostles are correct in their use of Scripture, and the church's current hermeneutics need a good hard look, since they don't align with the Apostles.

In essence, what bothers me is when an OT text is adopted for use in the NT and is claimed to be the original intent. (misappropriated)
Example:

Matthew 2:15
And [Jesus] was there [in Egypt] until the death of Herod:
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

Isn't that a reference to short-term events prophesied that fail to come to pass.
A prophecy for something far off in the future shouldn't be discounted. Example:

Acts 2:16-21 NIV
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[a]

--- COMPARE ---

Joel 2:28-32 NIV
“And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.[a]

[

So, if we were to be good Bible students and put Joel's words into context... they're about the restoration of Israel after a plague of locusts.

Luke is doing the thing, again.

 

[Wick Stick]

In essence, what bothers me is when an OT text is adopted for use in the NT and is claimed to be the original intent. (misappropriated)

Why does that bother you? Someone told you that was wrong at some point?

 

[St. SteVen]

So, if we were to be good Bible students and put Joel's words into context... they're about the restoration of Israel after a plague of locusts.

Luke is doing the thing, again.

That's a good point.
But did God pour out his Spirit on all people at that time?

Joel 2:28-29 NIV
“And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Why does that bother you? Someone told you that was wrong at some point?

It just seems dishonest. It's a false claim.

Matthew 2:15
And [Jesus] was there [in Egypt] until the death of Herod:
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

That's a good point.
But did God pour out his Spirit on all people at that time?

Joel 2:28-29 NIV
“And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

[

I can't answer that definitively. Joel doesn't tell us, and history doesn't record what happened afterwards.

However, based on Joel's inclusion in the canon of Scripture, and his not being stoned by the people, I would hypothesize the answer to be 'yes.'

 

[Wick Stick]

It just seems dishonest. It's a false claim.

Matthew 2:15
And [Jesus] was there [in Egypt] until the death of Herod:
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

[

I think you might need to update your definition of the word 'fulfilled.'

I read it more like this, and find no duplicity:

...that it might be re-filled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

:)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I have given examples that any reasonable person could see a problem with.
But some (many?) are too uncomfortable (fearful?) to give these things an HONEST look.

[

I have given them a look and will continue to do so. But unless I agree with you then I’m not willing to give them a closer look or consider them. I’ve shared with you how I hated Numbers 5 and spent more than a year with my assuming a lot about it. It was uncomfortable for me. It made me question God and doubt. Yet it was important for me to continue to consider why it made me so uncomfortable. Lots of verses have been that way. Personally I don’t think it’s fair for you to support you as being right by using the card that others are unwilling to look because it makes them uncomfortable. That is not a fact but an assumption.

 

[St. SteVen]

Here's another one.

• Matthew 16:28
  “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death
  before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
  
  
• Mark 9:1
  And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death
  before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
  
  
• Luke 9:27
  “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death
  before they see the kingdom of God.”

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I think you might need to update your definition of the word 'fulfilled.'

I read it more like this, and find no duplicity:

...that it might be re-filled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Is that a work-around? Or is there any basis for it?



Strong's Lexicon
pléroó: To fill, to make full, to complete, to fulfill
Original Word: πληρόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pléroó
Pronunciation: play-ro'-o
Phonetic Spelling: (play-ro'-o)
Definition: To fill, to make full, to complete, to fulfill
Meaning: I fill, fulfill, complete.

Word Origin: From the Greek word πλήρης (plérēs), meaning "full" or "complete."

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H4390 (מָלֵא, male'): To fill, be full

- H7999 (שָׁלַם, shalam): To be complete, to fulfill

Usage: The verb "pléroó" primarily conveys the idea of filling something to its full capacity or bringing something to completion. In the New Testament, it is often used to describe the fulfillment of prophecies, the completion of joy, or the filling of individuals with the Holy Spirit. It can also refer to the fulfillment of the law or commandments, indicating a bringing to full expression or realization.


[

 

[Lambano]

Is that a work-around? Or is there any basis for it?

I think what's going on here is...

We're thinking of "prophecy" wrong. Wading in over my head into the deep waters of symbols and allegory and metaphor and parables, Matthew is identifying Messiah as the living, breathing embodiment of the story of God's people. The story of God's people is told in the words of the Prophets, whether on parchment or written on subway walls and tenement halls. This is a somewhat radical interpretation of the over-used 2 Timothy 3:16.

Paul does the same thing in 1 Corinthians 10:4: "...and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ." (Another "Quid Inferorum" passage.)

Jesus Himself may even expand on that concept in His self-identification as "The Son of Man". Jesus is the embodiment of all humankind. Hence, John can say, "... and He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world". (1 John 2:2)

Jesus is us.

... but I could be wrong.


(Never admit that on an internet forum!)

 

[St. SteVen]

We're thinking of "prophecy" wrong.

Perhaps. (I hope so)
But when a claim is clearly questionable, they must be playing by a different set of rules to deem it okay. ???

--- PARODY ---

NT passage: "This happened to fulfill what was written..."
Reader: Let's check that cross reference.
OT passage: (something completely unrelated)
Reader: What the heck?
NT passage: "All Scripture is God-breathed..."
Reader: What's wrong with this picture?

[

 

[Lambano]

Perhaps. (I hope so)
But when a claim is clearly questionable, they must be playing by a different set of rules to deem it okay. ???

That's kind of what I'm getting at. We're thinking of "prophesy" in the prediction -> fulfillment paradigm, which you've shown doesn't work here. But a prophet's basic function is to be a mouthpiece for God. This model is something different.

I think @Wick Stick kind of has a grasp on this when he mentioned "patterns".

 

[St. SteVen]

That's kind of what I'm getting at. We're thinking of "prophesy" in the prediction -> fulfillment paradigm, which you've shown doesn't work here.

It's hard to steer around it when the NT text says "this happened to fulfill what was written..."

[

 

[Wick Stick]

Is that a work-around? Or is there any basis for it?

View attachment 55730

Strong's Lexicon
pléroó: To fill, to make full, to complete, to fulfill
Original Word: πληρόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pléroó
Pronunciation: play-ro'-o
Phonetic Spelling: (play-ro'-o)
Definition: To fill, to make full, to complete, to fulfill
Meaning: I fill, fulfill, complete.

Word Origin: From the Greek word πλήρης (plérēs), meaning "full" or "complete."

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H4390 (מָלֵא, male'): To fill, be full

- H7999 (שָׁלַם, shalam): To be complete, to fulfill

Usage: The verb "pléroó" primarily conveys the idea of filling something to its full capacity or bringing something to completion. In the New Testament, it is often used to describe the fulfillment of prophecies, the completion of joy, or the filling of individuals with the Holy Spirit. It can also refer to the fulfillment of the law or commandments, indicating a bringing to full expression or realization.


[

Pléroó is from the same etymological root from which we get "plus" and "plural" (Indo-European pele-). The idea of adding is definitely in there. I think there's a basis for it. However, I am not a professor of ancient languages. You shouldn't take my word for it.

 

[Wick Stick]

That's kind of what I'm getting at. We're thinking of "prophesy" in the prediction -> fulfillment paradigm, which you've shown doesn't work here. But a prophet's basic function is to be a mouthpiece for God. This model is something different.

I think @Wick Stick kind of has a grasp on this when he mentioned "patterns".

Bear with me for a minute as I develop a thought -

The Biblical idea of the soul/spirit living in the body is rooted in the idea of water/air being held in a container. When a person expresses their thoughts through speaking, they "pour out their soul" or "pour out their spirit." So far so good?

What about when God expresses His thoughts through speaking? A prophet is involved, yes. But it's still a "pouring out." We say that a prophecy is "filled" because what-was-poured-out returns, having caused the thing to happen.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

So then I would postulate that when God tells us the future, he isn't predicting, he's producing the effect. The world and everything in it was created by God speaking. It has creative force.

Likewise, when something is fulfilled, that isn't a prediction coming true, that's the work being produced.

 

[RedFan]

Pléroó is from the same etymological root from which we get "plus" and "plural" (Indo-European pele-).

I don't agree. We get "plus" and "plural" from Latin, not Greek.

 

[Wick Stick]

I don't agree. We get "plus" and "plural" from Latin, not Greek.

Yes. Latin is an Indo-European language. Greek is ALSO an Indo-European language. There is a common root.
The Greek word Pléroó comes from an Indo-European root (pele). So does the Greek poly-.
The Latin pluralis derives from the same word (pele). French plurel derives from it, and then English plural comes from that.

edit: meh, I'm still not a professor of language