Claimed prophetic fulfillment seems highly questionable. - Were they acquired rather than intended?

[St. SteVen]

Have you read the rest of Zechariah, I assume you have? Zechariah 14:1 Lexicon: Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

Random that they divided his garment and cast lots for it? Random
Hebrews 10:34-36 For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. [35] Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompence of reward. [36] For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.

That's pretty weak. The spoils of war are typically divided among the warriors.
I think there is a better reference than that. Like this one.

Psalm 22:18 NIV
They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

Did you know that Jesus quoted Psalm 22 when he was on the cross?

Psalm 22:1 NIV
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?

Are there any passages in the Old Testament you do see as Messianic prophecy and would agree if and when the New Testament writers referred to those Old Testament prophecies? If so, what are they? What of in the psalms that the dogs surround me …the perched my hands and feet. Is this about some other?

Sure. I think there are some good ones. As you listed.
I'm not against messianic prophecy. I'm against bogus prophecy.
Not sure who to blame for it. Is it inspired, or human meddling?

Surely you don’t doubt as messianic prophecies?? Isaiah 53:1-12 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? [2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he has no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. [8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. [9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. [10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he has poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

That's a good one. Obviously that it fits.

My objections are with the ones that don't. Some of which we have been discussing.

[

 

[Douggg]

Let's ask @BarneyFife

[

I asked you why the "[" at the bottom of all your posts. How about giving a straight answer.

 

[St. SteVen]

I asked you why the "[" at the bottom of all your posts. How about giving a straight answer.

Sorry. Usually @BarneyFife chimes in to refuse an answer. - LOL

I just use it add add some extra space at the bottom. So as not to crowd my signature line.

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[Douggg]

Sorry. Usually @BarneyFife chimes in to refuse an answer. - LOL

I just use it add add some extra space at the bottom. So as not to crowd my signature line.

[

Oh. Thanks.

 

[St. SteVen]

What about this one?

Luke 7:24-27 NIV
After John’s messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 25 If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. 26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27 This is the one about whom it is written:
“‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’[a]

--- COMPARE ---

Malachi 3:1 NIV
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me.
Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple;
the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,”
says the Lord Almighty.

Malachi 3:2-4 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites
and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have men
who will bring offerings in righteousness,
4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord,
as in days gone by, as in former years.

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[Jericho]

What is bothering me is the apparent lack of intent by the OT writer to prophesy.

From what I gather, I think you want prophecy to be spelled out to a tee but it doesn't work that way. Prophets are given pieces to the puzzles to which they themselves may not fully understand. Even the apostles didn't understand everything Jesus was saying until later. And sometimes those pieces are intentionally vague for a reason. There is a spiritual enemy who is also eavesdropping. 1 Corinthians 2:8 says, "None of the rulers of this age recognized and understood this wisdom; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;" Had prophecy been so exact, it would have given away too much of God's gameplans.

I should be clear about the Exodus. Archeology doesn't seem to support it.

Have you seen Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus? It suggests that the traditional view of Egyptian chronology and the Exodus dating are incorrect. The evidence is there, they're just not looking for it in the right timeframe.

 

[St. SteVen]

Prophets are given pieces to the puzzles to which they themselves may not fully understand.

That's a good point.
But the NT writers behave as if they are making solid connections.
It begs lots of questions.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

That's a good point.
But the NT writers behave as if they are making solid connections.
It begs lots of questions.

[

You've proved that the apostles co-opt prophecies out-of-context and claim fulfillment for them in their own day.

Someone is using the Bible wrong... do we think it's Jesus and the Apostles? Or...
Someone ISN'T using the Bible right... do we think it's the modern church?

I can't see a scenario where I claim to know more than the Lord of all creation, so I figure it's the second one.

 

[St. SteVen]

I can't see a scenario where I claim to know more than the Lord of all creation, so I figure it's the second one.

That assumes that no one messed with Jesus' words in the Bible. How certain are we?

If we assume that NO ONE messed with Jesus' words, we are still left with a mess to figure out.
I don't see how that helps.

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[Wick Stick]

That assumes that no one messed with Jesus' words in the Bible. How certain are we?

I'm 100% confident that people messed with stuff. I'm also 100% sure that they didn't invent and insert the same hermeneutic into ALL of the gospels and epistles. I can find that same hermeneutic at work in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are primary materials pre-dating the New Testament.

If we assume that NO ONE messed with Jesus' words, we are still left with a mess to figure out.
I don't see how that helps.

[

I don't find it particularly troublesome. If Jesus did it a certain way, I reckon maybe we should, too.

 

[Douggg]

The meaning of life, two words....

"God's love"

Dwell on that day and night.

Psalms 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't find it particularly troublesome. If Jesus did it a certain way, I reckon maybe we should, too.

In some cases it seems obvious that the OT writer was inspired to deliver a message directed at something specific in the future. (intended)
In other cases it appears that an OT text was recalled by memory and adopted (appropriated) for use in the NT as if it were an intended message in the OT text. But on further examination it appears to NOT have been intended. (doesn't fit)

So, I see two strikingly different approaches here. And a church that won't own the obvious facts about it.
We were told that every prophecy was INTENDED. (so parenthetically, that none were adopted/misappropriated)

[

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I think there is a better reference than that. Like this one.

Psalm 22:18 NIV
They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

Agree.

Did you know that Jesus quoted Psalm 22 when he was on the cross?

Psalm 22:1 NIV
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?

This you don’t doubt. Others you do. It’s like where Jesus told them they must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Most will say it’s clearly obvious He was Not speaking about cannibalism. It is widely understood. But those less obvious…same thing…there is doubt. Because if it is not obvious to me then it it must not be true, right!?

Sure. I think there are some good ones. As you listed.
I'm not against messianic prophecy. I'm against bogus prophecy.
Not sure who to blame for it. Is it inspired, or human meddling?

But these threads haven’t been about human meddling in regards to the many different translations out there today. The thread(s) have stayed consistent in questioning the New Testament writers.

 

[Wick Stick]

In some cases it seems obvious that the OT writer was inspired to deliver a message directed at something specific in the future. (intended)

It's always short-term. If you prophesy and it doesn't come true in your lifetime... you're a false prophet, by the Biblical test (Deu 18). And that rule seems completely incompatible with the idea that the Old Testament prophets all spoke of Jesus (John 12:41).

In other cases it appears that an OT text was recalled by memory and adopted (appropriated) for use in the NT as if it were an intended message in the OT text. But on further examination it appears to NOT have been intended. (doesn't fit)

Yes. Just how valuable is understanding the author's intention to Scripture? Maybe not so much as we were led to believe?

So, I see two strikingly different approaches here. And a church that won't own the obvious facts about it.
We were told that every prophecy was INTENDED. (so parenthetically, that none were adopted/misappropriated)

[

The church not owning this IS peculiar to me. This way of interpreting Scripture gives it POWER in people's everyday lives. But they (we?) would rather keep their hermeneutics intact?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It's always short-term. If you prophesy and it doesn't come true in your lifetime... you're a false prophet, by the Biblical test.

Disagree. Doesn’t make me right but I do disagree. The true prophets followed and revealed the Father which has patience, is long-suffering. Knowing it wasn’t unto themselves they preached but to the children. Everything about what you said …what of Moses who choose to count the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasure Egypt and enjoying sin for a season? What of these all died not receiving the promises instead choosing to wait for something better? What you speak of as short- term, now is “they have their reward”. What of it was for the joy set before Jesus that He endured the cross…that joy, Glory to come after the crucifix. They said the same to Him in the short-term supposing Him false for if He truly was who He said then “take yourself off the cross and come down from it” “save yourself” in the short-term. He decided on going the distance long-term. The prophets of Old preached “to us their children” “not to themselves”. Paul spoke of: if all we have is Hope in this life then we are the most miserable. You may say that means doing nothing in this Life: hoping emptily and vainly in something better. The prophets, the disciples, Jesus didn’t hope in vain. To me that is the point. If the test is short-term and has to come true in your life time then Jesus Christ failed. They killed Him. Yet death could not hold Him.

And that rule seems completely incompatible with the idea that the Old Testament prophets all spoke of Jesus, even if they're both in the book.

What?

Yes. Just how valuable is understanding the author's intention to Scripture? Maybe not so much as we were led to believe?

If it reveals the nature of God (He does it for our profit) then there is value.

The church not owning this IS peculiar to me. This way of interpreting Scripture gives it POWER in people's everyday lives. But they (we?) would rather keep their hermeneutics intact?

Power in people’s everyday lives? What kind of Power in the short-term?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Did you know that Jesus quoted Psalm 22 when he was on the cross?

Psalm 22:1 NIV
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?

This you don’t doubt. Others you do.

There's no reason to use a binary approach. All good, or all bad.
Case by case is more appropriate. IMHO

St. SteVen said:
Sure. I think there are some good ones. As you listed.
I'm not against messianic prophecy. I'm against bogus prophecy.
Not sure who to blame for it. Is it inspired, or human meddling?

But these threads haven’t been about human meddling in regards to the many different translations out there today. The thread(s) have stayed consistent in questioning the New Testament writers.

I'm not sure where to lay the blame. Again, case by case seems best.

It seems to me that there were many OT prophetic statements that are undeniably meaningful.
And then we have NT claims to prophecy that are sketchy at best and misappropriated at worst.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

It's always short-term. If you prophesy and it doesn't come true in your lifetime... you're a false prophet, by the Biblical test (Deu 18). And that rule seems completely incompatible with the idea that the Old Testament prophets all spoke of Jesus (John 12:41).

I thought that was more of a modern test of prophecy. If the prediction doesn't come true, they are a false prophet.

Hard to imagine Isaiah being discounted because messiah didn't arrive in his lifetime.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

I thought that was more of a modern test of prophecy. If the prediction doesn't come true, they are a false prophet.

Hard to imagine Isaiah being discounted because messiah didn't arrive in his lifetime.

[

It's right there in the middle of the oldest book in the Bible...

Deu 18:20-22
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

St. SteVen said:
Did you know that Jesus quoted Psalm 22 when he was on the cross?

Psalm 22:1 NIV
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?

Of course. I’m not the one sifting through deciding which ones are authentic messianic prophecies and which are not. There are so many quotes in the New Testament and also those not quoted in the New Testament but even from the first “Let there be Light” I could squabble all day that God misquoted the whole passage about the Light and how darkness receives it not and how “let there be Light” was in reference only to hanging the Sun in the sky to give light upon the earth. But all that regarding Jesus being the Light …I don’t think I need to so strongly push its the “Sun” but instead allow the Word to expand on “let there be Light” especially with 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

See …Old Testament in Genesis is refers to creation of Sun and Moon and stars. Do all New Testament quotes referring to the creation and the Light …have no value. Same as it had to be speaking of David and not Christ. Does it have to remain it had to be speaking of “Let there be Light” as don’t harm the “Sun” …and it was misquoted in “Let the be Light”: Christ….Christ never intended in “Let there be Light” …forgetting that is what the whole Word is revealing

There's no reason to use a binary approach. All good, or all bad.
Case by case is more appropriate. IMHO

St. SteVen said:
Sure. I think there are some good ones. As you listed.
I'm not against messianic prophecy. I'm against bogus prophecy.
Not sure who to blame for it. Is it inspired, or human meddling?

Ok.

t seems to me that there were many OT prophetic statements that are undeniably meaningful.
And then we have NT claims to prophecy that are sketchy at best and misappropriated at worst.

Ok. Never once have you considered maybe they have value but your fighting so hard to say they don’t that you have missed it.

 

[Wick Stick]

Disagree. Doesn’t make me right but I do disagree. The true prophets followed and revealed the Father which has patience, is long-suffering. Knowing it wasn’t unto themselves they preached but to the children. Everything about what you said …what of Moses who choose to count the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasure Egypt and enjoying sin for a season?

Moses is the one who gave the rule for stoning false prophets, and for determining that a prophet is false when their prophesy doesn't come true. See the verses quoted in my last post.

Power in people’s everyday lives? What kind of Power in the short-term?

I think you entered a conversation at the middle? Allow me to catch you up.

The idea here is that the Apostles took the words of the prophets and applied them to their everyday lives. To do that, they applied them outside of the context of the verses, and outside of the original author's intent. I.e. they used Scripture in a way that most churches tell us not to. My position is that the Apostles are correct in their use of Scripture, and the church's current hermeneutics need a good hard look, since they don't align with the Apostles.

As for power, using Scripture as a pattern for our everyday lives makes them relevant to us. They are not limited to being a matter of historical curiosity.