Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)

[marks]

Why are you looking so diligently for something that doesn't match please?

It's what he does. All his threads that I've seen question the integrity of the Bible.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

I was astounded when Jewish non-Christians claimed that what we called Messianic prophecies were no such thing.
And when I read them in context I could see their point. With the exception of Isaiah 53. (and a few others)

I read somewhere (NT Wright?) that (surprisingly), Isaiah 53 is NEVER cited by the NT writers as a Messianic Prophecy pointing to Jesus. To the best of my knowledge, this is true. (But I invite others to prove Wright is wrong.)

 

[Wick Stick]

I recently remembered a prophecy referred to by Jesus.
But I also remembered that orthodox Jews typically reject these "prophecies" saying that is not what they meant.
Were some of these prophecies, or other OT quotations acquired rather than intended?

There's more than one reason for this. I will give you two.

The first, most insidious reason, is that the Pharisees CHANGED Scriptures after-the-fact to exclude any hint at a Messiah.

A little explanation... Biblical Hebrew is often ambiguous. When you write without vowels you must rely on the reader to supply them (and there's no capitalization, punctuation, or spaces between words either). There are invariably a couple different ways to read it, and its up to the reader to determine which is correct.

So, starting in about 90AD, the Pharisees decided that ambiguity was a bad thing. Leaving it up to the people to interpret Scripture for themselves was causing all SORTS of different views to thrive (Now where have I heard that before?) So they took the Scriptures and filled in all the missing vowels, giving only a single meaning to all verses. Helpful, right?

Of course, they gave their own interpretation to all the verses. And they went out of their way to exclude any reading that hinted at a Messiah... especially a Messiah that suffered and died... especially one that they had a hand in executing.

Here are a couple. (we'll need to examine the context of the OT quotes)
Acquired rather than intended?

Mark 14:27 NET
Then[a] Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[b]

--- COMPARE ---

Zechariah 13:7 NET
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,”
says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
“Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered;[a]
I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matthew 1:23 NET
“Look! The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son,
and they will name him[a] Emmanuel,”[b] which means[c] “God with us.”[d]

--- COMPARE ---

Isaiah 7:14; 8:8, 10 NET
14 For this reason the Lord himself will give you a confirming sign.[a]
Look, this[b] young woman[c] is about to conceive[d] and will give birth to a son.
You, young woman, will name him[e] Immanuel.[f] ...
8 It will spill into Judah, flooding and engulfing, as it reaches to the necks of its victims.
He will spread his wings out over your entire land,[a] O Immanuel.”[b] ...
10 Devise your strategy, but it will be thwarted.
Issue your orders, but they will not be executed![a]
For God is with us![b]

[

The second reason has to do with how Jesus and the apostles handled Scripture.

The apostles didn't follow what would be considered sound hermeneutic principles in today's seminaries. They didn't give each verse a single meaning, limited by its audience and historical relevance. They don't appear to have cared at all what the original author's intent was!

Instead, they viewed Scripture as a pattern that could/would repeat itself down through the ages. The logic as I understand it is this... (a) When God speaks, it has creative force. (b) Scripture is God speaking. So then... (a+b=c) what Scriptures says has creative force that echoes across eternity. "What is written" will come to pass... again and again and again.

When the apostles looked at Scripture, they looked for the pattern, and tried to apply it to their current events. Sure, Isaiah may have been talking about something that happened just a few months after he wrote it... but Matthew saw that as something that ALSO happened in his own day. That's what they called a fulfillment of Scripture. It comes true again... as expected.

They were mindful to fit themselves into those events. When Jesus says "I have come to fulfill Scripture" He is talking (in part) about performing the Scriptures... treating them as a script and acting out the words that God had spoken through the prophets.

 

[marks]

I read somewhere (NT Wright?) that (surprisingly), Isaiah 53 is NEVER cited by the NT writers as a Messianic Prophecy pointing to Jesus. To the best of my knowledge, this is true. (But I invite others to prove Wright is wrong.)

1 Peter 2:21-25 KJV
21) For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22) Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23) Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I read somewhere (NT Wright?) that (surprisingly), Isaiah 53 is NEVER cited by the NT writers as a Messianic Prophecy pointing to Jesus. To the best of my knowledge, this is true. (But I invite others to prove Wright is wrong.)

Acts 8:29-35 KJV
29) Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30) And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31) And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32) The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33) In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34) And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35) Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

Acts 8:29-35 KJV
29) Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30) And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31) And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32) The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33) In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34) And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35) Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Much love!

Thank you, Marks. This one is interesting because the Ethiopian Eunuch (that's a helluva thing to be remembered by for all time) is reading from the Septuagint, which differs from the Masoretic text at Isaiah 53:8.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thank you, Marks. This one is interesting because the Ethiopian Eunuch (that's a helluva thing to be remembered by for all time) is reading from the Septuagint, which differs from the Masoretic text at Isaiah 53:8.

Show us.

[

 

[Lambano]

1 Peter 2:21-25 KJV
21) For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22) Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23) Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Much love!

Technically, 2 Petr 2:24 is more of an echo or an allusion rather than a direct quote, but you still get credit for it.

 

[marks]

Technically, 2 Petr 2:24 is more of an echo or an allusion rather than a direct quote, but you still get credit for it.

I'd call it an allusion, but clear enough to see his intent.

Much love!

 

[Wick Stick]

Thank you, Marks. This one is interesting because the Ethiopian Eunuch (that's a helluva thing to be remembered by for all time) is reading from the Septuagint, which differs from the Masoretic text at Isaiah 53:8.

He couldn't very well use the Masoretic text... it didn't exist yet.

 

[Lambano]

He couldn't very well use the Masoretic text... it didn't exist yet.

Masoretic Text

If he'd been in contact with the Essene community over by Qumran, he could've borrowed one of their scrolls.

But, it makes more sense that a foreigner would prefer the Greek text, since Greek was the international commerce language the way English is now.

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic:

Reader Poll - Bible Reading - BEFORE or AFTER you became a Christian?

Did you read the Bible BEFORE you became a Christian, or AFTER? I have heard testimonies of people reading the Bible before becoming Christians. I assumed it was a rare occurrence. Someone seeking God. rather than God seeking them. Discussion. [

www.christianityboard.com

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[St. SteVen]

Here's another one.
Based on a Hebrew myth. The original rolling stone.

1 Corinthians 10:3-4 NIV
They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink;
for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them,
and that rock was Christ.

[

 

[Bladerunner]

Since it's Christmas, let's talk about Matthew 2:23:

23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.

Exactly WHERE do the prophets say this?

mat 2:23..KJV "And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene."

 

[Wick Stick]

Since it's Christmas, let's talk about Matthew 2:23:

23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.

Exactly WHERE do the prophets say this?

I can't find a place. Neither Nazareth nor Nazarene are words used in the LXX at all.

H5342 (נֵצֶר - Nazar) exists in Hebrew, is translated "branch" 4 times, and seems to apply to the Messiah rather than a literal branch. Something to do with that, I'd guess?

 

[Deborah_]

I recently remembered a prophecy referred to by Jesus.
But I also remembered that orthodox Jews typically reject these "prophecies" saying that is not what they meant.
Were some of these prophecies, or other OT quotations acquired rather than intended?

There are very very few clear predictive prophecies about the Messiah (Zechariah 9:9 is one that comes to mind).
Most of the OT texts that we call "Messianic prophecies" aren't prophecies in the sense that they say "the Messiah will do (or be) such-and-such." So the Jews don't consider them as prophecies.

The famous "prophecy" of the virgin birth is a good example. In its original context, it's a contemporary sign given to a rebellious king. It refers to "the young unmarried woman" - evidently a person that the king already knows about (even though we don't!) There's nothing obvious in the passage to indicate a deeper meaning, and Jews have never considered it a Messianic prophecy. It was only after Jesus was born of a virgin that His followers looked at it again and said, "Aha!"

Similarly with Isaiah 53. It talks about "God's servant" - who could be identified in a number of different ways (hence the eunuch's question to Philip). Before Jesus was crucified, no-one other than He Himself saw the connection. Now it seems so obvious to us, we can't comprehend that it was anything but obvious to the generations before Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

There are very very few clear predictive prophecies about the Messiah (Zechariah 9:9 is one that comes to mind).
Most of the OT texts that we call "Messianic prophecies" aren't prophecies in the sense that they say "the Messiah will do (or be) such-and-such." So the Jews don't consider them as prophecies.

The famous "prophecy" of the virgin birth is a good example. In its original context, it's a contemporary sign given to a rebellious king. It refers to "the young unmarried woman" - evidently a person that the king already knows about (even though we don't!) There's nothing obvious in the passage to indicate a deeper meaning, and Jews have never considered it a Messianic prophecy. It was only after Jesus was born of a virgin that His followers looked at it again and said, "Aha!"

Similarly with Isaiah 53. It talks about "God's servant" - who could be identified in a number of different ways (hence the eunuch's question to Philip). Before Jesus was crucified, no-one other than He Himself saw the connection. Now it seems so obvious to us, we can't comprehend that it was anything but obvious to the generations before Christ.

So, you seem to agree that these "prophecies" were acquired rather than intended. (by the original authors)

It seems strange that the NT authors (and Christ) made claims of prophecy.

John 15:25 NIV
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’[a]

Psalms 35:19
Do not let those gloat over me
who are my enemies without cause;
do not let those who hate me without reason
maliciously wink the eye.

Psalms 69:4
Those who hate me without reason
outnumber the hairs of my head;
many are my enemies without cause,
those who seek to destroy me.
I am forced to restore
what I did not steal.

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[St. SteVen]

New topic:

The Best Revenge?

A situation at work gave me an idea for a topic. One of our supervisors doesn't like me due to a bad experience when I was working in her department. I don't work with her anymore, but she has obviously held a grudge. Which is obvious from some of her snarky comments when I do encounter her...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[Deborah_]

So, you seem to agree that these "prophecies" were acquired rather than intended. (by the original authors)

It seems strange that the NT authors (and Christ) made claims of prophecy.

And who is the original Author of prophecy?

Whatever Isaiah, Jeremiah and all the rest of the prophets (and their contemporaries) understood by their prophecies, God was working on a much larger timescale. As someone else has said, patterns in Scripture are as important as words.

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic:

Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy? - since the prophecies were acquired rather than intended

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts) https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/were-messianic-prophecies-acquired-rather-than-intended-in-the-original-texts.67180/ In the previous topic it was somewhat...

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