Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)

[St. SteVen]

I recently remembered a prophecy referred to by Jesus.
But I also remembered that orthodox Jews typically reject these "prophecies" saying that is not what they meant.
Were some of these prophecies, or other OT quotations acquired rather than intended?

Here are a couple. (we'll need to examine the context of the OT quotes)
Acquired rather than intended?

Mark 14:27 NET
Then[a] Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[b]

--- COMPARE ---

Zechariah 13:7 NET
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,”
says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
“Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered;[a]
I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matthew 1:23 NET
“Look! The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son,
and they will name him[a] Emmanuel,”[b] which means[c] “God with us.”[d]

--- COMPARE ---

Isaiah 7:14; 8:8, 10 NET
14 For this reason the Lord himself will give you a confirming sign.[a]
Look, this[b] young woman[c] is about to conceive[d] and will give birth to a son.
You, young woman, will name him[e] Immanuel.[f] ...
8 It will spill into Judah, flooding and engulfing, as it reaches to the necks of its victims.
He will spread his wings out over your entire land,[a] O Immanuel.”[b] ...
10 Devise your strategy, but it will be thwarted.
Issue your orders, but they will not be executed![a]
For God is with us![b]

[

 

[A Freeman]

By "acquired" do you mean self-fulfilling prophecies, i.e. where someone has to work to make those prophecies come true?

If so, how would anyone be able to do that with HUNDREDS of prophecies, all about a single individual (Christ, during His Coming/Incarnation in the body of Jesus)?

 

[St. SteVen]

By "acquired" do you mean self-fulfilling prophecies, i.e. where someone has to work to make those prophecies come true?

If so, how would anyone be able to do that with HUNDREDS of prophecies, all about a single individual (Christ, during His Coming/Incarnation in the body of Jesus)?

That's a great question.
I guess "self-fulfilling" may be away to look at it.

I have posted in the past about biblical misquotes.
Here's an example below.
Notice how the author "qualifies" the statement.

Gave gifts, or received gifts, which is it?

Ephesians 4:8 NIV
This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”[b]

--- COMPARE ---

Psalm 68:18 NIV
When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from[a] the rebellious—
that you,[b] Lord God, might dwell there.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

That's a great question.
I guess "self-fulfilling" may be away to look at it.

I have posted in the past about biblical misquotes.
Here's an example below.
Notice how the author "qualifies" the statement.

Gave gifts, or received gifts, which is it?

Ephesians 4:8 NIV
This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”[b]

--- COMPARE ---

Psalm 68:18 NIV
When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from[a] the rebellious—
that you,[b] Lord God, might dwell there.

I later discovered that some of the Hebrew OT translations say "gave gifts".
Why didn't the modern translations catch this, or which is correct?

[

 

[A Freeman]

That's a great question.
I guess "self-fulfilling" may be away to look at it.

I have posted in the past about biblical misquotes.
Here's an example below.
Notice how the author "qualifies" the statement.

Gave gifts, or received gifts, which is it?

Ephesians 4:8 NIV
This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”[b]

--- COMPARE ---

Psalm 68:18 NIV
When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from[a] the rebellious—
that you,[b] Lord God, might dwell there.

[

Thank-you. The difficulty is with the NIV, which is a horrible translation of the Bible. The KJV 1611 is much better, although the KJV also has some issues in places (many of which have been addressed and corrected in the King of kings' Bible).

Please see the passage below, with cross-references about the gift of Christ/the Holy Spirit, i.e. the connection between God and us (John 16:7; John 14:15-18):

Ephesians 4:6-10*
4:6 One God and Father of all, Who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ (see: John 3:16, John 3:34 and Acts 5:32)
4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he (Christ) ascended up on high (John 3:13), he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men (John 16:7).
4:9 (Now that he (Christ) ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the Earth?
4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens (Ps. 68:4), that he might fulfill ALL things**.)

*Note: Please note how verse 6 very specifically defines God, leaving no room for any "trinity"
**Note: ALL of the prophecies about Christ during His incarnation of Jesus, and His Mission

Psalm 68:17-18
68:17 The chariots of God [are] twenty thousand, [even] thousands of angels: the Lord [is] among them, [as in] Sinai, in the holy [place].
68:18 Thou (Christ) hast ascended on high, Thou (Christ) hast led captivity captive: Thou (Christ) hast received gifts FOR men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the "I AM" God might dwell [among them].

Please note well that the gifts are consistently from God, via Christ (THE Mediator between God and us - 1 Tim. 2:5).

If you would like to discuss any other alleged differences, please feel free to post them.

One final thought/comment on the above passages is that while God causes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on the just and the unjust (Matt 5:45), i.e. the material gifts of this world, the same is NOT true of spiritual gifts (spiritual insight, true wisdom, guidance, etc.), which are given to us in measure, based upon love and obedience to Him (loving and doing His Will).

 

[St. SteVen]

Please see the passage below, with cross-references about the gift of Christ/the Holy Spirit, i.e. the connection between God and us (John 16:7; John 14:15-18):

Ephesians 4:6-10*
4:6 One God and Father of all, Who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ (see: John 3:16, John 3:34 and Acts 5:32)
4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he (Christ) ascended up on high (John 3:13), he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men (John 16:7).
4:9 (Now that he (Christ) ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the Earth?
4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens (Ps. 68:4), that he might fulfill ALL things**.)

*Note: Please note how verse 6 very specifically defines God, leaving no room for any "trinity"
**Note: ALL of the prophecies about Christ during His incarnation of Jesus, and His Mission

Psalm 68:17-18
68:17 The chariots of God [are] twenty thousand, [even] thousands of angels: the Lord [is] among them, [as in] Sinai, in the holy [place].
68:18 Thou (Christ) hast ascended on high, Thou (Christ) hast led captivity captive: Thou (Christ) hast received gifts FOR men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the "I AM" God might dwell [among them].

Thanks for your reply.

Here again the quotes don't match. (see the BOLD added to your post)
Gave gifts, or received gifts, which is it?

It seems that the OT text isn't really supporting the NT claim.
This isn't a problem if we understand that the quotes were ACQUIRED for use rather than PROPHETIC.
Which is the BIG question on this topic.

[

 

[A Freeman]

Thanks for your reply.

Here again the quotes don't match. (see the BOLD added to your post)
Gave gifts, or received gifts, which is it?

It seems that the OT text isn't really supporting the NT claim.
This isn't a problem if we understand that the quotes were ACQUIRED for use rather than PROPHETIC.
Which is the BIG question on this topic.

[

Thanks for your reply.

Here again the quotes don't match. (see the BOLD added to your post)
Gave gifts, or received gifts, which is it?

It seems that the OT text isn't really supporting the NT claim.
This isn't a problem if we understand that the quotes were ACQUIRED for use rather than PROPHETIC.
Which is the BIG question on this topic.

[

But the message in both does match. It may not be a direct quote, but it paraphrases the exact same message.

Both passages have:

a) the same gift giver (The God and Father of us all),
b) the same gift deliverer and gift (Christ/The Word of God, full of grace and truth),
c) and the same recipient (us/men).

If someone on the giving end said "I, Jack, am sending a gift to you, Jill, via Fed-Ex" and someone on the receiving end later said "I, Jill, have received the gift from Jack, that Fed-E just delivered", the second statement is confirming the first (and its delivery).

Do you see this please?

 

[GTW27]

I recently remembered a prophecy referred to by Jesus.
But I also remembered that orthodox Jews typically reject these "prophecies" saying that is not what they meant.
Were some of these prophecies, or other OT quotations acquired rather than intended?

Here are a couple. (we'll need to examine the context of the OT quotes)
Acquired rather than intended?

Mark 14:27 NET
Then[a] Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[b]

--- COMPARE ---

Zechariah 13:7 NET
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,”
says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
“Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered;[a]
I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matthew 1:23 NET
“Look! The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son,
and they will name him[a] Emmanuel,”[b] which means[c] “God with us.”[d]

--- COMPARE ---

Isaiah 7:14; 8:8, 10 NET
14 For this reason the Lord himself will give you a confirming sign.[a]
Look, this[b] young woman[c] is about to conceive[d] and will give birth to a son.
You, young woman, will name him[e] Immanuel.[f] ...
8 It will spill into Judah, flooding and engulfing, as it reaches to the necks of its victims.
He will spread his wings out over your entire land,[a] O Immanuel.”[b] ...
10 Devise your strategy, but it will be thwarted.
Issue your orders, but they will not be executed![a]
For God is with us![b]

[

They were both, Intended by The Lord, and acquired when The Spirit rested upon the prophet. "The word of The Lord came to me" The imperfect (word for word between the old and the new) was done for a reason to show prophecy can be imperfect as the old vessel is imperfect.
I know of a prophet that in 2018 and 2019 often spoke about the food lines that were coming to the U.S. He did not know why the words flowed from his lips until 2020. Blessings!

 

[Lambano]

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)​

You mean, read back into the original text after the fact in order to prooftext what the author wanted? A little eisegesis? Imagine that.

 

[Lambano]

Can the prophecies have multiple levels of meaning, both of which are true?

I'm not comfortable with that answer, but I can't preclude it out-of-hand. Especially when it's Jesus doing the eisegesis, as in the Mark quotation. I don't want to be That Guy who tells Jesus, "Lord, you can't do that. You're pulling the quote completely out of its original context, which is poor hermeneutical technique."

(Though I'm sure Jesus would give my hermeneutical concerns all due consideration.)

 

[St. SteVen]

Do you see this please?

Ah, I think so.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)​

You mean, read back into the original text after the fact in order to prooftext what the author wanted? A little eisegesis? Imagine that.

I mean they quoted something in the moment from the OT that was not intended by the original author to be prophetic.

[

 

[A Freeman]

Ah, I think so.

[

:-)

 

[St. SteVen]

Can the prophecies have multiple levels of meaning, both of which are true?

I'm not comfortable with that answer, but I can't preclude it out-of-hand. Especially when it's Jesus doing the eisegesis, as in the Mark quotation. I don't want to be That Guy who tells Jesus, "Lord, you can't do that. You're pulling the quote completely out of its original context, which is poor hermeneutical technique."

(Though I'm sure Jesus would give my hermeneutical concerns all due consideration.)

Perhaps we have concerns about such out-of-context quotes today, but it was common place back then?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

:-)

The translation may have had some tweaks to make it work?

[

 

[Lambano]

Perhaps we have concerns about such out-of-context quotes today, but it was common place back then?

[

Jesus is effectively validating quoting scripture out-of-context as a hermeneutical technique, and that makes me REALLY uncomfortable. No wonder so many people on the forum also quote out-of-context.

Paul does it too, so I guess it was not uncommon.

 

[A Freeman]

The translation may have had some tweaks to make it work?

[

It doesn't appear so.

KJV
Ephesians 4:6-10
4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

KJV
Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

 

[St. SteVen]

It doesn't appear so.

Let's check the Greek and Hebrew.





[

 

[A Freeman]

Let's check the Greek.

View attachment 55000

View attachment 55001

[

Thank-you. Greek has a different sentence structure, hence the need to translate it into English, for English-speaking people who understand the sentence structure of English.

Why are you looking so diligently for something that doesn't match please? These verses are as close as they need to be as a spot-on match, considering they were written in different languages.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thank-you. Greek has a different sentence structure, hence the need to translate it into English, for English-speaking people who understand the sentence structure of English.

Why are you looking so diligently for something that doesn't match please? These verses are as close as they need to be as a spot-on match, considering they were written in different languages.

The Greek and Hebrew show us that they don't match.
This evidence indicates to me that the quote was acquired, not prophetic.
Most Bible readers assume they are prophetic.

[