Sinless perfection is easy

[CadyandZoe]

So you are saying Paul considered himself to be a slave to sin throughout the remainder of his life?

Much love!

Yes. In chapter 8, Paul discusses that freedom from corruption is a future hope, not a present reality. In that context, he says that he was freed from condemnation and from "the law of sin and death." But freedom from death will come later.

Don't be confused by his language. His focus is on "death" as a negative effect of the sin nature. He cries out, "Who will free me from this body of death?" He means, who will free me from a body whose members are at war with his mind?

Although Jesus has forgiven his sins and freed him from condemnation, Jesus has not yet freed him from his body. That will come later at the last trumpet. Like Paul, we all live in a body whose members are at war with our minds. At the last trumpet, we will be freed from that body in order to inherit a new body.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Though we are in Christ, we have the remnants of the old man who veers his head and direction off course now and then - more often than you think. Someone else mentioned selfishness as a key character flaw. When we are given the opportunity to love others and decide to say no, make an excuse to justify not caring or helping, isn't that sin. Jesus says love one another. Who of us is totally unselfish, sacrificing themselves for others? I mean dedicating your life, like Mother Teresa. Who? Very few, so next your sinless perfectionists get an opportunity to help someone in your path - like the Good Samaritan and you make an excuse not to, the guilt will slap you in your face, unless you are callous. The Law is good, it makes us realize what sin is. Though there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ, do we not act selfishly at times as the unbelievers do? I do.

Merry Christmass to All,
May the fruit of the Spirit be growing in you.

 

[Behold]

He admits that he continually and often broke the Tenth Commandment against coveting.

Paul never said he continually broke the 10th commandment.

So, What cult commentary are you using that is teaching this lie??

 

[Behold]

Don't be confused by his language. His focus is on "death" as a negative effect of the sin nature. He cries out, "Who will free me from this body of death?" He means, who will free me from a body whose members are at war with his mind?

Paul is TEACHING.

He's teaching what happens to a believer when they dont understand they are not to try to perform to be accepted by God.

"Its not by our works, but according to God's MERCY>.. we are saved and will always remain so."..

This is why he continues the teaching and says...>>"not having my own righteousness that is related to the LAW... but to be found "IN HIM">

See that?
That is Paul teaching us, that our Salvation, is not our self effort....its not our trying to be good.......as that MIND is the flesh, that wars against the TRUTH that is ..... every Christian is "made righteous".

 

[CadyandZoe]

And yet it is the very same Paul that teach how we are NOT to live IN Hamartia whilst IN the body.

J.

In Romans 6, He exhorts his readers to give their members over to the service of righteousness, which is something that he and others were able to do. We can all do that. In Romans 7, he admits (as we all should) that he continues to sin inwardly. Once the law came (the tenth commandment) he found in himself coveting of every kind. In Romans 8, he argues that those who follow the Spirit, will put to death the deeds of the body.

But the most critical feature of the one whom the Spirit leads is his or her attitude toward God. These will say, "not my will but your will be done."

Jesus warned the Pharisees that their righteousness fell short of perfection. Paul was a Pharisee and he kept the Law perfectly, but as he admits, while he was righteous in his behavior, he was not righteous in his inward man. A Pharisee will confess that he has never slept with his neighbor's wife, but Jesus warned the Pharisees that a man who wishes to commit adultery in his heart has already committed adultery with her.

Complete and perfect righteousness includes the proper inwardness. Paul found that he was unable to keep the tenth commandment because although he agreed with it in his mind, he found coveting of all kinds. He found that Sin was a fundamental aspect of his very being. Though he was outwardly upright and righteous, he was inwardly sinful to the core of his being.

This is precisely why a man can't find justification through outward practice. He is constitutionally incapable of obeying the Tenth Commandment. He will remain that way until he is given a new body.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul never said he continually broke the 10th commandment.

Yes he did.

Romans 7:7-8 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

 

[Scott Downey]

Though we are in Christ, we have the remnants of the old man who veers his head direction off course now and then - more often than you think. Someone else mentioned selfishness as a key character flaw. When we are given the opportunity to love others and decide to say no, make an excuse to justify not caring or helping, isn't that sin. Jesus says love one another. One of us is totally unselfish, sacrificing themselves for others? I mean dedicating your life, like Mother Teresa. Who? Very few, so next your sinless perfectionists get an opportunity to help someone in your path - like the Good Samaritan and you make an excuse not to, the guilt will slap you in your face, unless you are callous. The Law is good, it makes us realize what sin is. Though there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ, do we not act selfishly at times as the unbelievers do? I do.

Merry Christmass to All,
May the fruit of the Spirit be growing in you.

Of course, and these are not sins unto death
The entire chapter in 1 John speaks well of these things and shows to us God's triune nature.

And a sin unto death is not speaking of spiritual death of anyone born of God.

1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—[a]our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

The Certainty of God’s Witness​

6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness [b]in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of [c]God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has [d]life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, [e]and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Confidence and Compassion in Prayer​

14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Knowing the True—Rejecting the False​

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps[f] [g]himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Here is one example of a sin unto death for people in a church.
We can be judged by the Lord even to death. but it is also saying we are judged so as to not perish along with the world, so it is not the second death in the Lake of Fire spoken about. Notice Paul also tells them for their unruly terrible ungodly attitudes, many are WEAK and SICK among you and some have died. They are being judged.

Examine Yourself​

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and [f]blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks [g]in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the [h]Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many [i]sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.

​

 

[Behold]

Yes he did.

Romans 7:7-8 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

That is the beginning of the teaching that Paul is giving.
Its a Teaching....where He is explaining the "who will deliver me from this body"... and that is "i do what i hate, and what i want to do, i can't do".

See that?

So, when you dont read the REST of what He teaches then you end up with a false theology... that you are teaching.

Here is the END of the Teaching....

"I can do ALL things Through Christ"

"Christ always gives me the Victory,"" over the world, my flesh, and the devil.

So, when you dont read the NT, and all you do is post from commentaries and online sites.... where heretics also didnt read the rest of what Paul teaches, then you end up teaching against what He taught.......as you are doing now.

 

[Scott Downey]

And for more proof, Hebrews 8, of this New Covenant written in Christ's blood, God says they will all know me and God will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and lawless deeds, I will remember no more.

IF they know God and Christ, they have eternal life.
If they do not know God, they will not be obeying the gospel, by not believing in Christ and those people will all be destroyed

John 17
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He [a]should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together [b]with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Hebrews 8
Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the [a]sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant​

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Behold]

And for more proof, Hebrews 8, of this New Covenant written in Christ's blood, God says they will all know me and God will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and lawless deeds, I will remember no more.

Notice that the Apostle is teaching that God will remember the sin of the born again.........NEVER AGAIN..

So, when a person is confessing sin, that God does not remember.... then that person is found STUCK here....

Hebrews 6:1

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is the beginning of the teaching that Paul is giving.
Its a Teaching....where He is explaining the "who will deliver me from this body"... and that is "i do what i hate, and what i want to do, i can't do".

See that?

Yes, I see it. When did Paul say he was delivered from his body of death? I didn't see that.

So, when you dont read the REST of what He teaches then you end up with a false theology... that you are teaching.

Make your case.

Here is the END of the Teaching....

"I can do ALL things Through Christ"

Paul isn't suggesting that he can do ALL things. He can't jump off a cliff or rocket himself to the moon. Bible students need to understand the Greek phrase "ta panta" translated "all things", which doesn't mean "each and everything that exists. It means, "everything in the list I just provided." The following passage is a good example.

Philippians 4:12-13 I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.​

In this context, "all things" are limited to getting along with humble means and living in poverty. He isn't talking about living without sin in this passage, so we can't use it to prove that Christ will keep us from sinning.

"Christ always gives me the Victory,"" over the world, my flesh, and the devil.

You reference 1 Corinthians 15:56-57 where the apostle Paul discusses the resurrection and Christ's victory over death, which Jesus will give to us.

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

We can't use this verse to prove that Christ will give us victory over sin in this life.

So, when you dont read the NT, and all you do is post from commentaries and online sites.... where heretics also didnt read the rest of what Paul teaches, then you end up teaching against what He taught.......as you are doing now.

I did read the NT and my ideas are my own. I didn't get them from web-sites or other teachers.

 

[Behold]

Make your case.

It's Paul's theology.
Its not a "case".

Paul isn't suggesting that he can do ALL things.

Paul is teaching in Phil 3, that once he understood that all his self effort to be accepted by God is "DUNG"... .. it was because he "got the revelation" that His Righteousness is based on "the imputed righteousness of Christ"... and he was making this "of none effect" by trying to BE GOOD..........to try to get God to accept Him.

Now he finishes that TEACHING as....., "i can do all things through Christ, which Strengthens me".......and that is CHRISTIANITY perfected.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It's Paul's theology.
Its not a "case".

You hold an interpretation of Paul's theology, which you want to share with the rest of us. I am inviting you to give your reasons why you think Paul is saying what you think he is saying.

Paul is teaching in Phil 3, that once he understood that all his self effort to be accepted by God is "DUNG"... .. it was because he "got the revelation" that His Righteousness is based on "the imputed righteousness of Christ"... and he was making this "of none effect" by trying to BE GOOD..........to try to get God to accept Him.

I disagree with your interpretation because Paul isn't talking about justification in that passage. He is talking about suffering.

 

[Behold]

You hold an interpretation of Paul's theology, which you want to share with the rest of us. I am inviting you to give your reasons why you think Paul is saying what you think he is saying.

Happy to teach Paul's doctrine... always.



1.) Paul said that he is a Master Class Pharisee. (Phil 3)

= A Jew of Jews.. born of the Tribe of Benjamin.

Paul said.. "i was blameless in the Law".

Then He met Jesus, and said...... that "all his righteousness... (ALL self effort to be good, so that God would have him) is """DUNG.""""

Why?
Because that is Paul explaining that = "all our righteousness is as a Filthy Rag"< when compared to "The Righteousness of God in Christ".


2.) That is Paul explaining that God has given us what we can't produce.......as we have NO RIGHTEOUSNESS of our own, because.,..,

"ALL have sinned.. .there is NONE RIGHTEOUS......>>No NOT ONE"..

That means you,
That means me
That means us all.

So, God became a Man, to give us HIS righteousness as "the Gift of Righteousness", when we give God our Faith in Christ

Why did God have to do that for us as Jesus's life and death?

Its because without Righteousness.....we can't rejoin God, in Spiritual Union as "born again"

 

[CadyandZoe]

Happy to teach Paul's doctrine... always.



1.) Paul said that he is a Master Class Pharisee. (Phil 3)

= A Jew of Jews.. born of the Tribe of Benjamin.

Paul said.. "i was blameless in the Law".

Then He met Jesus, and said...... that "all his righteousness... (ALL self effort to be good, so that God would have him) is """DUNG.""""

Why?
Because that is Paul explaining that = "all our righteousness is as a Filthy Rag"< when compared to "The Righteousness of God in Christ".

Paul discusses the comparative value of different items. However, the relative value of something depends on the specific goal or need at hand. For instance, if someone asks me whether I would prefer a biscuit or a bar of gold, I might choose the bar of gold because it holds greater monetary value. Conversely, I might opt for the biscuit if I am starving, as food would satisfy my immediate need. After all, I cannot eat gold.

Paul's comparison does not diminish or devalue his righteous behavior. However, he acknowledges that his good deeds cannot serve as a means to earn God's favor. Since the ultimate aim is to gain God's favor, these deeds are akin to filthy rags in that regard.

But our discussion is concerned with Paul's personal attitude toward lack and suffering. In that regard, Paul says that he can do all things through Christ. In other words, he relies on Christ to help him deal with lack and suffering. He is not suggesting that Christ will keep him from sinning.

 

[Behold]

Since the ultimate aim is to gain God's favor,

God didnt wrap Himself in Human Flesh inside the Virgin Mary's womb, so that you could have God "Favor."

God as Christ died on The Cross so that by This BLOOD ATONEMENT and "new Covenant" you can become "the rightousness of God in Christ".

= A CHRISTian.. who is forever reconciled to God...as "born .....again".

 

[marks]

No. If I had thought so, I wouldn't have asked it. Why did I ask it? Not every question is meant to seek information. I am following our Lord Jesus Christ, who asked people questions when they couldn't hear what he said. Sometimes, a question will unplug the ear.

Rhetorical example . . .

Much love!

 

[ProDeo]

Although Jesus has forgiven his sins and freed him from condemnation, Jesus has not yet freed him from his body. That will come later at the last trumpet. Like Paul, we all live in a body whose members are at war with our minds. At the last trumpet, we will be freed from that body in order to inherit a new body.

Have a look at the context.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Paul answering his own question -
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

At the last trumpet?
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Does it mean we will never sin anymore in this life?

No.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God didnt wrap Himself in Human Flesh inside the Virgin Mary's womb, so that you could have God "Favor."

Never said he did.

God as Christ died on The Cross so that by This BLOOD ATONEMENT and "new Covenant" you can become "the rightousness of God in Christ".

I agree because Paul said that God was in Christ reconciling the world to him.

= A CHRISTian.. who is forever reconciled to God...as "born .....again".

I agree as long as we don't say that being born again gives anyone the power to live a sinless life.

 

[marks]

I agree as long as we don't say that being born again gives anyone the power to live a sinless life.

Do you think that the Holy Spirit is able to empower a man to live sinlessly? So far as we can know?

Much love!