Sinless perfection is easy

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CadyandZoe

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What kind of sin was Paul in to???
He admits that he continually and often broke the Tenth Commandment against coveting. We all do. That's the point. Even a person who practices perfect righteousness (outward behavior) can not avoid coveting (inner thought life). The Tenth Commandment is God's challenge to religious people. We are not judged because we broke the law per se. We are judged because we are the kind of people who disobey the Law.

For instance, the Sixth Commandment proscribes murder. And most everyone can avoid that. The Tenth Commandment proscribes the desire to commit murder. Not many people can avoid that. The Seventh Commandment proscribes adultery. Most people can avoid that. The Tenth Commandment proscribes the desire to sleep with a neighbor's wife. Most people can't obey that commandment.

Paul discovered that he was "dead" because although he was able to live the righteous life of a pharisee, never breaking the first nine commandments, he was unable to keep the tenth commandment. After all, sin itself is a fundamental aspect of his nature. He isn't the kind of person who commits murder, but he is the kind of person who wants to commit murder. He isn't the kind of person who commits adultery, but he is the kind of person who wants to commit adultery. Every man on the planet, in a time of sober reflection, knows that his desires convict him.
 

CadyandZoe

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Incorrect-read Romans 6,7 and 8 and you tell me if Paul was an habitual sinner-back to basic Hebrew and Greek grammar.
He admitted he was a sinner.
I prefer not to waste my time and would rather focus on engaging with one or two members I can genuinely trust.
Why? You prefer to hear what you wish to hear?
 

ElectedbyHim

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Many are saying Paul was not regenerate in Romans 7:14ff.

How can the uregenerate say this...

Romans 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Unbelievers cannot say those things that Paul did, they do not see themselves as sinners, they do not want to please God or be obedient to His commandments, its impossible,

In chapter 8 Paul says this....

Romans 8:5-8 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

The unregenerate hate God, they hate everything about Him and the cross is foolishness to them.

Romans 7:14-25

Macarthur comments Some interpret this chronicle of Paul's inner conflict as describing his life before Christ. They point out that Paul describes the person as "sold under sin" (Rom_7:14); as having "nothing good" in him (Rom_7:18); and as a "wretched man" trapped in a "body of death" (Rom_7:24). Those descriptions seem to contradict the way Paul describes the believer in chapter 6 (cf. Rom_7:2, Rom_7:6-7, Rom_7:11, Rom_7:17-18, Rom_7:22). However, it is correct to understand Paul here to be speaking about a believer. This person desires to obey God's law and hates his sin (Rom_7:15, Rom_7:19, Rom_7:21); he is humble, recognizing that nothing good dwells in his humanness (Rom_7:18); he sees sin in himself, but not as all that is there (Rom_7:17, Rom_7:20-22); and he serves Jesus Christ with his mind (Rom_7:25). Paul has already established that none of those attitudes ever describe the unsaved (cf. Rom_1:18-21, Rom_1:32; Rom_3:10-20).

Paul's use of present tense verbs in verses Rom_7:14-25 strongly supports the idea that he is describing his life currently as a Christian. For those reasons, it seems certain that chapter 7 describes a believer. However, of those who agree that this is a believer, there is still disagreement. Some see a carnal, fleshly Christian; others a legalistic Christian, frustrated by his feeble attempts in his own power to please God by keeping the Mosaic Law. But the personal pronoun "I" refers to the apostle Paul, a standard of spiritual health and maturity. So in verses Rom_7:14-25, Paul must be describing all Christians—even the most spiritual and mature—who, when they honestly evaluate themselves against the righteous standard of God's law, realize how far short they fall. He does so in a series of four laments (Rom_7:14-17, Rom_7:18-20, Rom_7:21-23, Rom_7:24-25).


Lewis Sperry Chafer adds that "In Romans 7:15-25 the conflict is between the regenerate man (hypothetically contemplated as acting independently, or apart from the indwelling Spirit) and his flesh. It is not between the Holy Spirit and the flesh. Probably there is no more subtle delusion common among believers than the supposition that the saved man, if he tries hard enough, can, on the basis of the fact that he is regenerate, overcome the flesh. The result of this struggle on the part of the Apostle was defeat to the extent that he became a wretched man.

S Lewis Johnson writes that…Not only are there many human formulas for salvation, there are also many for sanctification. There are purveyors of sanctification by taboos, sanctification by such positively good things as witnessing, Bible study, and prayer done in our own strength. What results is a form of Christian legalism, a pride of righteousness done in the power of the flesh. It, too, discounts our state before God and the work of the Holy Spirit within us. The Apostle Paul makes it very plain that, even after our birth from above, we are in ourselves unable to overcome indwelling sin. We need something done in us (cf. note Romans 8:2), or the continual working of the Holy Spirit in sanctification. Just as a man cannot save himself, so a Christian cannot sanctify himself. We believers cannot of ourselves live the Christian life. We cannot of ourselves keep any law of God due to indwelling sin. That, in essence, is the point of the apostle in Romans 7:13-25…

Another question that has arisen is this: Is Paul drawing upon his own experiences, or is he using himself as representative of one in the throes of this spiritual condition? In answer to this one may say that it is not a question of an either/or, but of a both/and. He is using himself as an example based upon his own experiences. What we have is no abstract argument, but the personal struggle of an agonizing soul.

It has also been asked whether this is necessary Christian experience. I am inclined to think that it is necessary Christian experience, that is, that struggle characterizes us as long as we are in the flesh. On the other hand, it is not complete Christian experience. There are occasions of glorious victory in the believer's life, although complete victory awaits the future (cf. Romans 8:1-11).

What we have, then, in Romans 7:13-25 is the picture of a believer seeking to keep the Law (cf. Romans 7:22; 8:4) with the resources of the Law and his new life alone (cf. Romans 8:3). Sixteen times we find ego used (Greek for I) , thirty times the "I" is found in the AV, while the Holy Spirit is not used at all in the section, that is, Romans 7:13-25. The Law is mentioned in chapter seven twenty times, but only four times in chapter eight (nomos itself five times). In chapter eight there are at least twenty references to the Holy Spirit. These things, I believe, are the key to the section.(
 
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CadyandZoe

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Romans 7:24-25 KJV
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul gives the answer right there. Who shall deliver me from the body of death? Jesus did.
Paul wasn't suggesting that Jesus had freed him yet. Paul believes that we will be free from our body of Death later. Refer to Romans chapter 8.
 

CadyandZoe

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He already told you why and that wasn't it. You are denigrating someone needlessly, and it doesn't look good on you.

Much love!
So he can't speak for himself? I did not denigrate him. I asked him a question.

Do you not recognize that his beliefs are without solid foundations, which is why his answers are lacking real substance? His beliefs are not rational beliefs, they are religious beliefs, which is why he lacks the ability to give reasons for what he believes. Lacking reasons is why people resort to deflections and misdirection.
 
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marks

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So he can't speak for himself? I did not denigrate him. I asked him a question.
Do you think your question was kind of stupid?

Nevermind me . . . I'm just asking a question.

He spoke of those he trusts. But you made the choice to paint him as intellectually dishonest, in Jeopardy! fashion.

A little plausible deniability anyone?

Much love!
 
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marks

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Paul wasn't suggesting that Jesus had freed him yet. Paul believes that we will be free from our body of Death later. Refer to Romans chapter 8.
So you are saying Paul considered himself to be a slave to sin throughout the remainder of his life?

Much love!
 
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Johann

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Paul wasn't suggesting that Jesus had freed him yet. Paul believes that we will be free from our body of Death later. Refer to Romans chapter 8.
And yet it is the very same Paul that teach how we are NOT to live IN Hamartia whilst IN the body.

J.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Now you have gone to regurgitating false calvinist doctrine... which is like vomit before the Lord as calvinism is doctrines of demons.

Hang in their man... maybe you come to know the Truth of God's Word one of these days.





No, Romans 7 man is not a born again child of God.

Feel free to believe your flesh has a mind of it's own and just goes out and does sin sometime and you can't do anything to stop it as you believe you have no power over your own body

True Christians are over comers!

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

People that follow the demonic OSAS doctrine and demonic calvinist doctrine cannot be trusted... because they might bust out in to sinful behavior at any moment and murder someone as they are controlled be demonic forces and are not led by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ.

These people actually believe they cannot control themselves and that they have dark sinful desires lurking inside of them that can manifest at any moment without warning!

I wouldn't let these people in my house! View attachment 54817
Merry Christmas!
 
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quietthinker

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What kind of sin was Paul in to???

Was he gay? A drunk? Was he on drugs? Did he run some hookers on the side to raise money for his ministry?

Reckon he spent time nekkid in the gay Roman bath houses?

Just curious what all sin Paul was into and can you show where he engaged in sinful behavior?
Sin is not isolated to the gross activity of the flesh. It includes the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 
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ProDeo

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Speaking for myself, when I became born again and received the indwelling Holy Spirit my dead conscience suddenly started to speak and I landed in Rom 7 and while I was a new man I had to fight the old man for a couple of years before I arrived in Romans 8, the nature of the new man (Christ) overcame the nature of the old man and its carnal desires.
 
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Windmill Charge

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Unless one starts knowing what sin is, as defined by the bible, any discussion is pointless.

The rich ruler declared he had kept the social aspects of the ten commandments, those laws everyone thinks of when discussing sin.

However the old Testament and Jesus defined the law and breaking the law is sin as:-

To love the Lorf your God with All your body, mind and soul.
To love your neighbour as you love yourself.

No one loves God like that and no one loves other people like that so as the bible says " All have Sinned."
 

quietthinker

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Unless one starts knowing what sin is, as defined by the bible, any discussion is pointless.

The rich ruler declared he had kept the social aspects of the ten commandments, those laws everyone thinks of when discussing sin.

However the old Testament and Jesus defined the law and breaking the law is sin as:-

To love the Lorf your God with All your body, mind and soul.
To love your neighbour as you love yourself.

No one loves God like that and no one loves other people like that so as the bible says " All have Sinned."
Yes, the self is still much alive (selfishness)....its the self we do battle with every day.
If one looks at the transition from Romans 7 to Romans 8 we see that while Paul acknowledges his sinful nature as active he is thankful for God's Grace. Romans 8:1 'There is therefore no condemnation....'
Rom. 8 is the continuum of Rom. 7 in the present tense.
 

Windmill Charge

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Yes, the self is still much alive (selfishness)....its the self we do battle with every day.
If one looks at the transition from Romans 7 to Romans 8 we see that while Paul acknowledges his sinful nature as active he is thankful for God's Grace. Romans 8:1 'There is therefore no condemnation....'
Rom. 8 is the continuum of Rom. 7 in the present tense.
Or as John said, if we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us.
1john1:8+9
The frightening truth is those who claim sinless perfection are playing with fire.
 

Scott Downey

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1 Thessalonians 5:23

Blessing and Admonition​

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God does divide spirit, soul, body, apart!
soul VS spirit, these are not the same thing.
Then there is the mind, which I identify as part of the soul so then it can be trained according to the flesh or according to the spirit.

You will be carnally minded or spiritually minded
But to the spirit of man, God has given eternal life for those in Christ, those born again, born of God are spiritually alive. And they are joined to the God's Spirit as one spirit with Him

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


As in a marriage, a man and wife are joined bodily, so that they are one flesh. That is how God views their relationship
Same thing spiritually, either man or women born of God are joined as in a marriage, recall the talk of the wedding feast

1 Cor 6
16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Marriage—Christ and the Church​

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might [g]sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, [h]of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

1 Cor 5, it is the spirit which is saved, not the flesh, mind, soul, body, which makes good sense as that spirit is joined to God as one spirit with Him. The body, flesh, mind, soul of a man is not so joined.

So that if your spiritually minded and growing in the grace and knowledge of God, that spiritually mined spirit will retain a reward.
And not have everything about them burn up at the judgement seat.
1 Cor 3

Watering, Working, Warning​

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone [b]defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.


1 Cor 5

Immorality Defiles the Church​

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even [a]named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are [b]puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord [c]Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore [d]purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed [e]for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Immorality Must Be Judged​

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to [f]keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
 
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CadyandZoe

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I said-read Romans 6, 7 and 8 and tell me if Paul was a HABITUAL sinner AFTER his conversion.

J.
And I said Yes, he was. Paul, like Jesus, understood that righteousness was more than outward obedience. Romans 6 is an argument defending the Gospel against two distinct objections: 1) the gospel isn't true because it promotes sin, and 2) the gospel isn't true because it removes all incentive to avoid sin.

Romans 6 addresses outward obedience, while Romans 7 focuses on inward obedience. In the first half of Romans 7, the case is established that a person who has died to the Law is freed from seeking justification through the law and is encouraged to seek a different means of justification. The latter half of Romans 7 argues that no one, not even Paul himself, can find justification through the law because sin is deeply rooted in our nature. We are all bound to the "body of this death," unable to achieve inward righteousness.

Those who understand this are freed from seeking justification through the law to seek justification through the forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ.

Inward righteousness is unattainable. A man can and should give his members over to the service of righteousness (outwardly) but a man can not change WHO he is inwardly.

Did Paul give his readers information or the technique to be freed from their body of death? Not at all. He answers, "Who WILL FREE me from this body of death?" (future tense) Here the apostle indicates that he has not yet been freed, but hopes for it.
 

Behold

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Christ died for all futures sins too not even committed almost 2k years ago. I was born in 1955. It has to be all sins!


Exactly.

See, God is really very very smart. And He understands that if SALVATiON was not perfect... in that it keeps us saved.. and keeps us sinless, then we would ruin it, in about 15 seconds,
So, God created Salvation so that its only based on The Cross of Christ... Its only based on what JESUS HAS FINISHED, completed, and that way, we can't mess it up..once we RECEIVE IT as "THe GIFT of Salvation"..
 

CadyandZoe

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Do you think your question was kind of stupid?
No. If I had thought so, I wouldn't have asked it. Why did I ask it? Not every question is meant to seek information. I am following our Lord Jesus Christ, who asked people questions when they couldn't hear what he said. Sometimes, a question will unplug the ear.
He spoke of those he trusts. But you made the choice to paint him as intellectually dishonest, in Jeopardy! fashion.
His lie was not intellectual dishonesty. His sin is arrogance. His behavior is a prime example of why Paul said, "knowledge puffs up." His condensation is based on his overconfidence, leading to the dismissiveness we both witnessed.