Revelation 9:1 - 11 Who are these locusts representing?

[TribulationSigns]

Give me your source-late here.

Johann.

Here. Re-read and consider carefully. Do you have any biblical refutation? Why ask for a source because you could not defend your doctrine on Satan coming back into heaven or how the sons of God being the children of God (not angels) present themselves before the Lord like we do in church today?

 

[Johann]

Thats what I use now ewq1938, thank you. I did not know if there was something more extensives but as easy to use as blueletterbible. Apparently when I quote the Psalm 110:1 that The LORD (Yehovah) said unto my Lord (adown)" from there is wrong, or the Hebrew text is wrong (?) I cannot figure out what the problem is the person is saying. My tool is apparently not good enough from what I am taken from the situation.

Step Bible (Tyndale House)
Website: stepbible.org
Features:
Hebrew Masoretic Text (BHS) and Greek texts, including Textus Receptus, NA28, and Byzantine.
Inline interlinear and parsing tools for Hebrew and Greek.
Word definitions, morphology, and quick access to lexicon entries.
Parallel translations, allowing comparison with English or other languages.
Strengths: Developed by scholars; excellent for precise word studies and cross-referencing.

3. BibleHub
Website: biblehub.com
Features:
Hebrew Old Testament (Masoretic Text) and Greek New Testament (Textus Receptus, NA28, etc.).
Interlinear Bible with full parsing, morphology, and Strong’s Concordance links.
Lexicons: Strong’s, Gesenius’ (Hebrew), Thayer’s (Greek).
Tools for cross-referencing, original word studies, and parallel translations.
Strengths: Very accessible, quick for interlinear searches and in-depth lexical studies.

4. Scripture4All (Interlinear Scripture Analyzer - ISA)
Website: scripture4all.org
Features:
Downloadable software providing Hebrew Masoretic and Greek Textus Receptus interlinear Bibles.
Parsing and morphology tools for every word in the text.
Strong’s Concordance numbers linked to words.
Strengths: Ideal for offline use and detailed parsing of every word in Hebrew and Greek.

5. Sefaria (For Hebrew Scriptures)
Website: sefaria.org
Features:
Hebrew Bible (Masoretic Text) alongside classical Jewish commentaries (Rashi, Ramban, etc.).
Interactive tools for exploring Hebrew texts with English translations.
Search tools for individual Hebrew words or phrases.
Strengths: Excellent resource for studying the Hebrew Bible in its Jewish interpretative context.

6. BibleGateway
Website: biblegateway.com
Features:
Access to multiple translations, including some with interlinear tools for Greek and Hebrew.
Basic word search capabilities.
Strengths: Good for side-by-side comparisons, though less robust for detailed word studies.

7. Logos Bible Software (Free Version Available)
Website: logos.com
Features:
Hebrew and Greek texts, including interlinear Bibles with morphology and lexicons.
Tools for word studies, parsing, and language analysis.
Integration with theological resources and commentaries.
Strengths: Professional-grade tool for scholars, but requires a learning curve. A free basic version is available.

8. BibleArc
Website: biblearc.com
Features:
Hebrew and Greek interlinear texts with parsing tools and word studies.
Diagramming tools for detailed syntactical analysis.
Word searches and access to lexicons.
Strengths: Excellent for advanced study, particularly for sentence diagramming and syntax analysis.

Try BibleArc @Verily-excellent!.

Johann

 

[CTK]

Sorry no. No where in the whole Bible, even the verses you quoted above, will you ever read that God created Satan and the "heavenly angels". That is fact, not speculation that so many Christians employ as proof. People who believe that must read that into the Bible from the eir own assumptions, conjecture, and supposition. Becasue it is not something actually stated. That is because Satan is "by definition" the Adversary, the spirit of wickedness, the spirit of the antichrist, the spirit of disobedience that is CONVEIVED in mankind. He is NOT this supernatural fallen angelic being so many think that he is. he is a characterization of the spirit of lawlessness in man. Period.

Well, apparently I did read your post correctly and, again, I have never heard anyone preach this... How can you say that God did not create Satan.... He created everything!!!!! Of course that includes Satan. Satan is just as real an entity as any other angel. Do you contend that Michael and Gabriel are not real entities? Or are they the goodness that is CONVEYED in man that exists? I simply cannot wrap my head around your thoughts.

The Bible is clear that God created all things, including the spiritual realm and angelic beings:

1. Colossians 1:16
   “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”
   • This verse confirms that everything in heaven and earth, including angelic beings like Lucifer, was created by God.
2. John 1:3
   “All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”
   • Nothing exists apart from God's creative work, which includes Lucifer in his original state.
3. Nehemiah 9:6
   “You alone are the Lord; You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and everything on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You.”
   • The “host of heaven” refers to angelic beings, showing that God created them.

For by Him all things....All things were made....You alone....

Yes, God created Lucifer, who was originally a high-ranking and beautiful angel before his rebellion. This understanding comes from combining various biblical passages that describe God as the Creator of everything—including the heavenly beings—and passages that provide insight into Lucifer's origin, his fall, and his transformation into Satan.

---

Although the name Lucifer (meaning "light-bearer" or "morning star") is not explicitly tied to Satan in every biblical passage, the King James Version translates Isaiah 14:12 this way:​

• Isaiah 14:12
  “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!”

This passage poetically describes a fallen figure often associated with Satan. While the immediate context refers to the king of Babylon, many scholars believe it parallels the fall of Satan from his exalted position.

You have fallen... You are cut down, you who weakened....

---

Ezekiel 28:12-17 – A Picture of Lucifer’s Fall​

The prophet Ezekiel’s lament over the king of Tyre is often seen as having a dual application, pointing to Satan’s origin and rebellion:

1. Created in Perfection:
   “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God” (Ezekiel 28:12-13).
   • This indicates Lucifer was created in perfection as a beautiful and wise being.
2. A Covering Cherub:
   “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones” (Ezekiel 28:14).
   • Lucifer was given an exalted role as a guardian angel (a cherub) close to God’s presence.
3. Corruption Through Pride:
   “You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you” (Ezekiel 28:15).
   • This confirms Lucifer’s created nature and his fall due to sin—he was not created evil but became so by his own choice.
4. Pride and Rebellion:
   “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor” (Ezekiel 28:17).
   • Lucifer’s pride in his own beauty and splendor led to his downfall.

You were created, you were perfect, your heart.... these are not something within Adam.

Lucifer’s Fall and Transformation into Satan​

Lucifer chose to rebel against God, desiring to exalt himself above his Creator. His rebellion is described in another poetic passage:

• Isaiah 14:13-14
  “For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God… I will be like the Most High.’”

This prideful desire to overthrow God’s authority marked the moment of Lucifer’s transformation into Satan (meaning “adversary”). His rebellion led to his expulsion from heaven, as also seen in Revelation 12:7-9:

• “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

Here, Satan is explicitly identified as the dragon, the Devil, and the deceiver of the world.


Look at the pronouns - I, I , I...... this is not something within Adam, this is a real entity.


God made everything. God made everything good. God gave everyone, including the angels free will. God witnessed Lucifer / Satan bring evil, not only into heaven but to the earth. He corrupted Adam and Eve and they sinned.

Everything that God created was good until it wasn't. God created Adam and Eve, the angels without blemish, without sin. It was by their choice to bring or create within themselves sin. God did not create sin... sin is the disobediece of God.... and that can only be found by free will.

Who created Michael, Gabriel, the angels in heaven, those mentioned in the Scripture and in Revelation? I simply don't understand this - the Scriptures tell us God created everything.... that means everything.... God bless you.

 

[Verily]

No. God didn't create Satan...nor sin, wickedness, or iniquity! What you believe is fatally flawed. It is not semantics, it is a unbiblical conundrum, a Christian dilemma, a church enigma, a vivid contradictory mystery to all that you say you believe.

A million dollar question for you:

If God created "everything", then did the Holy God create sin or even iniquity in Eve and Adam? Humm?

For if man didn't create sin, wickedness or iniquity, and God is the only one who can create, then by process of elimination God created sin. There's no other lucid explanation. It's simple. If only God can create, and wickedness came into existence from what God clearly said was all good, then God created wickedness. That's how deep the rabbit hole goes when we attempt to abandon the path to truth and consistency for inconsistency and conundrums. I'm assuming you still (hopefully) believe that "God cannot create iniquity." So I'm not sure you've thought this whole thing through to its logical conclusion. Sounds like you're responding in a knee-jerk emotionally charged reaction because you don't have an answer, rather than responding in an reasoned, biblical and exegetical manner.

But say I agree with you that man created nothing. So who created sin and why does God hold man responsible for sin if he (according to you) can't create sin, because only God can bring anything into existence? Semanitics? No. Contradiction, yes! As I say, "inconsistency is the hallmark of error.'

#1. Create means to bring (something) into existence.
#2. Only God can create.
#3. Sin was created or brought into existence.
#4. Q.E.D., God created sin.

Does that sound right to you? No, it's fatally flawed reasoning. The truth is it is MAN who created or brought sin into existence. Sin is the existence of a unlawful act by man. It comes from within man, it is by the will of man, and it is for man. This is when the spirit of disobedience called Satan came in! PERIOD!

If you would use less of your own words and just use scripture it would help.

 

[Verily]

Step Bible (Tyndale House)
Website: stepbible.org
Features:
Hebrew Masoretic Text (BHS) and Greek texts, including Textus Receptus, NA28, and Byzantine.
Inline interlinear and parsing tools for Hebrew and Greek.
Word definitions, morphology, and quick access to lexicon entries.
Parallel translations, allowing comparison with English or other languages.
Strengths: Developed by scholars; excellent for precise word studies and cross-referencing.

3. BibleHub
Website: biblehub.com
Features:
Hebrew Old Testament (Masoretic Text) and Greek New Testament (Textus Receptus, NA28, etc.).
Interlinear Bible with full parsing, morphology, and Strong’s Concordance links.
Lexicons: Strong’s, Gesenius’ (Hebrew), Thayer’s (Greek).
Tools for cross-referencing, original word studies, and parallel translations.
Strengths: Very accessible, quick for interlinear searches and in-depth lexical studies.

4. Scripture4All (Interlinear Scripture Analyzer - ISA)
Website: scripture4all.org
Features:
Downloadable software providing Hebrew Masoretic and Greek Textus Receptus interlinear Bibles.
Parsing and morphology tools for every word in the text.
Strong’s Concordance numbers linked to words.
Strengths: Ideal for offline use and detailed parsing of every word in Hebrew and Greek.

5. Sefaria (For Hebrew Scriptures)
Website: sefaria.org
Features:
Hebrew Bible (Masoretic Text) alongside classical Jewish commentaries (Rashi, Ramban, etc.).
Interactive tools for exploring Hebrew texts with English translations.
Search tools for individual Hebrew words or phrases.
Strengths: Excellent resource for studying the Hebrew Bible in its Jewish interpretative context.

6. BibleGateway
Website: biblegateway.com
Features:
Access to multiple translations, including some with interlinear tools for Greek and Hebrew.
Basic word search capabilities.
Strengths: Good for side-by-side comparisons, though less robust for detailed word studies.

7. Logos Bible Software (Free Version Available)
Website: logos.com
Features:
Hebrew and Greek texts, including interlinear Bibles with morphology and lexicons.
Tools for word studies, parsing, and language analysis.
Integration with theological resources and commentaries.
Strengths: Professional-grade tool for scholars, but requires a learning curve. A free basic version is available.

8. BibleArc
Website: biblearc.com
Features:
Hebrew and Greek interlinear texts with parsing tools and word studies.
Diagramming tools for detailed syntactical analysis.
Word searches and access to lexicons.
Strengths: Excellent for advanced study, particularly for sentence diagramming and syntax analysis.

Try BibleArc @Verily-excellent!.

Johann

Thank you so very much Johann! I will save these and give them a try, very helpful! Appreciate it!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Think about this. Sin is simply disobedience. If you believe in original sin, then who created it? Honestly? Is it God if you believe He created "everything?" Who brought disobedience into existence in the world? Man or God? We can't just gloss over questions because they are difficult and pertain to the issue of the existence of sin. God sure doesn't. He holds man responsible for its existence. Moreover, the fundamental question must be answered, how did sin come into existence in Adam "IF" He was "created good" by God. The answer is, Adam (as well as Eve) lusted and desired what was unlawful, bringing sin into the world. These are fundamental biblical questions that shape not only how we understand God, but how we understand the unclean spirit, the covenant and propitiation. If God didn't bring Adam's sin into existence (create it), then who did? You don't have an answer because you don't like the only answer that fits, obviously! But none will ever find the truth concerning this until they answer the question of who created sin. Because if God didn't, that means man did! It was his spirit of disobedience (Satan) that brought sin into the world. Like I said, Sin is the ACT of disobedience after the law God gave them NOT TO EAT THE FRUIT.

 

[TribulationSigns]

If you would use less of your own words and just use scripture it would help.

Can you find Scripture to prove my position wrong anyway? Can you even answer this question asked for you, with Scripture or not:

"If God created "everything", then did the Holy God create sin or even iniquity FOUND IN Eve and Adam?"

Yes or no?

 

[Johann]

Thank you so very much Johann! I will save these and give them a try, very helpful! Appreciate it!

BibleArch.

Matthew 1:20
20 ταῦτα δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐνθυμηθέντος, ἰδοὺ, ἄγγελος Κυρίου κατ’ ὄναρ ἐφάνη αὐτῷ λέγων, Ἰωσὴφ, υἱὸς Δαυείδ, μὴ φοβηθῇς παραλαβεῖν Μαρίαν τὴν γυναῖκά σου; τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν ἐκ Πνεύματός ἐστιν Ἁγίου. ●
20 But as he considered these things, behold, ● an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 1:23
23 ἰδοὺ, ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσουσιν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἐμμανουήλ, ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον, μεθ’ ἡμῶν ὁ Θεός. ●
23 ● “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name ● Immanuel” (which means, God ● with us).
Matthew 2:2
2 λέγοντες, ποῦ ἐστιν ὁ τεχθεὶς Βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων? εἴδομεν γὰρ αὐτοῦ τὸν ἀστέρα ἐν τῇ ἀνατολῇ καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ. ●
2 saying, “Where is he who has been born ● king of the Jews? For we saw ● his star when it rose ● and have come to ● worship him.”
Matthew 2:6
6 καὶ σύ Βηθλέεμ, γῆ Ἰούδα, οὐδαμῶς ἐλαχίστη εἶ ἐν τοῖς ἡγεμόσιν Ἰούδα; ἐκ σοῦ γὰρ ἐξελεύσεται ἡγούμενος, ὅστις ποιμανεῖ τὸν λαόν μου τὸν Ἰσραήλ. ●
6 ● “‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will ● shepherd my people Israel.’”

And you can delve deeper re the syntax and grammar @Verily!

Johann.

 

[Johann]

Can you find Scripture to prove my position wrong anyway? Can you even answer this question asked for you, with Scripture or not:

"If God created "everything", then did the Holy God create sin or even iniquity FOUND IN Eve and Adam?"

Yes or no?

Brother-I will answer you tomorrow.

J.

 

[Verily]

Can you find Scripture to prove my position wrong anyway?

Big Pharma could ask the same question, whether I can prove one way or another that their vaccines are not safe

(Well, maybe that is a bad example). But I have just been answering off the cuff between other posts while making and baking bread and I am not a very good multitasker. But I will keep your post in mind and when I have time Lord willing I will cross check it much more thoroughly.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

The Locusts that come out of the Bottomless Pit in around 1,020 years from now, will be the judged Kings of the earth who will be judged at Armageddon in around 20 years from now and at the same time the heavenly host will also be judged and they, the judged kings of the earth and the heavenly hosts, will be gathered together and imprisoned for many days in a pit to await the time of their punishment.

The Judged heavenly hosts are identified as the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 and the kings of the earth are identified in Rev 9:1 are identified as being locust.

I trust that you will consider this understanding.

Shalom

 

[Johann]

Big Pharma could ask the same question, whether I can prove one way or another that their vaccines are not safe

(Well, maybe that is a bad example). But I have just been answering off the cuff between other posts while making and baking bread and I am not a very good multitasker. But I will keep your post in mind and when I have time Lord willing I will cross check it much more thoroughly.

Don't forget to tag me-more than willing to assist and learning from you as well.

Johann.

 

[CTK]

Think about this. Sin is simply disobedience. If you believe in original sin, then who created it? Honestly? Is it God if you believe He created "everything?" Who brought disobedience into existence in the world? Man or God? We can't just gloss over questions because they are difficult and pertain to the issue of the existence of sin. God sure doesn't. He holds man responsible for its existence. Moreover, the fundamental question must be answered, how did sin come into existence in Adam "IF" He was "created good" by God. The answer is, Adam (as well as Eve) lusted and desired what was unlawful, bringing sin into the world. These are fundamental biblical questions that shape not only how we understand God, but how we understand the unclean spirit, the covenant and propitiation. If God didn't bring Adam's sin into existence (create it), then who did? You don't have an answer because you don't like the only answer that fits, obviously! But none will ever find the truth concerning this until they answer the question of who created sin. Because if God didn't, that means man did! It was his spirit of disobedience (Satan) that brought sin into the world. Like I said, Sin is the ACT of disobedience after the law God gave them NOT TO EAT THE FRUIT.

God did not create sin. Sin is not a created “thing” or entity like the physical world, humans, or angels. Instead, sin is the result of free will—the ability to choose contrary to God’s perfect will and moral law. The Bible affirms that God is inherently good, holy, and righteous. There is no evil in Him, and He cannot act against His own nature.

• 1 John 1:5:
  “God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.”
• Deuteronomy 32:4:
  “He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; righteous and upright is He.”
• James 1:13:
  “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.”

God’s nature is entirely free of evil, and He is not the source or origin of sin.



God created angels and humans with free will—the ability to choose right or wrong, to obey or disobey Him. Free will is a gift that allows genuine love, worship, and obedience, but it also opens the possibility for rebellion.

• Sin is not a created substance but rather a choice—a moral and spiritual deviation from God’s perfect will.

The first sin occurred not on earth, but in heaven when Lucifer (a high-ranking angel) chose pride and rebellion against God. Lucifer’s sin was rooted in his free will—a deliberate choice to exalt himself above God.

• Isaiah 14:12-14:
  “For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God… I will be like the Most High.’”
• Ezekiel 28:15:
  “You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.”

Lucifer was created good and perfect, but he used his free will to choose rebellion. By rejecting God’s authority and choosing pride, sin entered into existence.


Similarly, humans were created in God’s image, perfectly innocent and with free will. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve chose to disobey God’s command, introducing sin into the human experience.

• Genesis 2:17:
  “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
• Genesis 3:6:
  “So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food… she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.”

Their sin was disobedience—a misuse of the free will God gave them. This act of rebellion brought sin, death, and corruption into the world.



Sin is not something God created; rather, it is the absence of good and the rejection of God’s will. Sin occurs when a moral being (like an angel or human) chooses to act against God’s perfect character and law. A helpful analogy:

• Just as darkness is not a created thing but the absence of light,
• Sin is not a created thing but the absence of righteousness or conformity to God’s will.

In other words, sin is a moral corruption or a turning away from God’s perfection.



God gave angels and humans free will because He desires genuine love and relationship. True love cannot be forced; it requires the freedom to choose. If God created beings without free will, they would be mere robots, incapable of genuine worship, love, or obedience. However, the gift of free will carries risk: the possibility of choosing rebellion, which leads to sin. God knew this risk, but He also had a plan of redemption through Jesus Christ to rescue humanity from sin’s consequences. Although God did not create sin, He allows it for a time as part of His greater plan of redemption. God’s ultimate response to sin is seen in His provision of salvation through Jesus Christ:

• John 3:16:
  “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
• Romans 5:8:
  “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Through Christ’s sacrifice, God made a way for sin to be forgiven and for humanity to be reconciled to Him.


For me, this is abundantly clear.... your own your own on this one, sorry.

 

[ewq1938]

Thats what I use now ewq1938, thank you. I did not know if there was something more extensives but as easy to use as blueletterbible. Apparently when I quote the Psalm 110:1 that The LORD (Yehovah) said unto my Lord (adown)" from there is wrong, or the Hebrew text is wrong (?) I cannot figure out what the problem is the person is saying. My tool is apparently not good enough from what I am taken from the situation.

I am not sure what issue you are describing.

Another one is

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

Online Bible Study Suite. Topical, Greek and Hebrew study tools, plus concordances, commentaries, sermons and devotionals.

biblehub.com

 

[ewq1938]

No. God didn't create Satan

He did create satan. He did not create rebellion or sin in satan.

 

[TribulationSigns]

God did not create sin. Sin is not a created “thing” or entity like the physical world, humans, or angels. Instead, sin is the result of free will

Free will?? No, we ALL "were" already had evil spirits to begin with. Started with Eve who was passed down to us. Do you remember when was the first sin of your life? No? We already had the spirit of disobedience within us before we were born. Nothing to do with our free will in the womb! You were ALREADY a sinner to begin with.

Psa 58:3-4
(3) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
(4) Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

We were already unregenerated and had the spirit of disobedience to begin with...in the womb. After we were born, we were moved by OUR OWN SPIRIT of the flesh to commit sin. For sin is the WORK of the Devil in OUR flesh moving us to serve our own will in DISOBEDIENCE to God. In THIS spirit we are our own god, ruling our lives, doing our own will and committing our own sins. When we sin, we are doing the works of the devil, because our flesh "IS" of the Devil! Or to put it another way, the Devil is in our flesh because it is that spirit driving our works. Not a spirit that is a super fallen angel, but our own carnal spirit. Selah!

When we are carnal , we have the spirit in our flesh, and its works (sin) we will do by nature:

Galatians 5:19

• "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,"

How are the works of the flesh manifested, or how do we see the works of the flesh? It is only through the Spirit of God that the works of the flesh are revealed. Otherwise, they remain hidden. In fact, God in the flesh came specifically that we might see that we are all of the Devil, the antichrist spirit, and in need of having that spirit cast out, thus having our works changed. In Salvation, we went from having a spirit of disobedience ruling us to having the Spirit of God rule us. In this (casting out) God has destroyed his works that were in us.

 

[ewq1938]

Free will?? No, we ALL "were" already had evil spirits to begin with. Started with Eve who was passed down to us. Do you remember when was the first sin of your life? No? We already had the spirit of disobedience within us before we were born. Nothing to do with our free will in the womb! You were ALREADY a sinner to begin with.

Psa 58:3-4
(3) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
(4) Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

We were already unregenerated and had the spirit of disobedience to begin with...in the womb.

That addresses the wicked not all people.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.


Other translations:


(CEV) I did learn one thing: We were completely honest when God created us, but now we have twisted minds.


(ESV) See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.


(GW) I have found only this: God made people decent, but they looked for many ways to avoid being decent."


(MSG) Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things.


upright


3477

03477 yashar {yaw-shawr'}


from 03474; TWOT - 930a; adj


AV - right 53, upright 42, righteous 9, straight 3, convenient 2,
Jasher 2, equity 1, just 1, meet 1, meetest 1, upright ones 1,
uprightly 1, uprightness 1, well 1; 119


1) straight, upright, correct, right
1a) straight, level
1b) right, pleasing, correct
1c) straightforward, just, upright, fitting, proper
1d) uprightness, righteous, upright
1e) that which is upright (subst)



God hath made man upright, meaning righteous and good, but man seeks out things that alter this beginning.

 

[TribulationSigns]

That addresses the wicked not all people.

Again, according to God's word, it is not a matter of man's choice to be good, but of his congenital, inherited sin problem. Because of this, it is God's assessment that man goes astray from the womb. If it was truly dependent upon his own choices, it would be impossible for all (as in every single person on earth) by his own choice to be wicked. That makes no sense. If "all" from birth are wicked, then all are in bondage to sin and there is none that has a nature to be good. Not one.

Job 15:14

• "What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?"

Romans 3:10-12

• "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
• There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
• They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Q.E.D, Job and every other man on earth is an unjust man, hypocrite, and WICKED! There is no one who does good or that is righteous by his own choice. It wasn't dependent upon man's choice to do good or evil, it is dependent of God's choice. That is what man is--unable to be clean, righteous or good because he is fallen by nature.

So if the nature of man is neither good nor evil, then why does God insist that there is not one single human being in the entire world that is good? Why is there not one single person that understands? Why is there not one single person that is righteous or that can of his own free choice come to God? Why does God say the wicked go astray from the womb? Is God then incorrect in His assessment of the nature of man?

Psalms 51:5

• "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Without Christ we are ALL wicked, and Scripture says the wicked sin from the womb "naturally," or in other words, because that is man's nature. Shall we argue with God insisting we're good if we decide to be? God forbid, yea, let God be true, but every man a liar.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

What does the context of Ecclesiastes 7 talk about? Haven't you bother to check with Ecclesiastes 7:20 which tells you that some are not wicked to began with (before being born again, humm?)

Ecc 7:20

• For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

 

[CTK]

Again, according to God's word, it is not a matter of man's choice to be good, but of his congenital, inherited sin problem. Because of this, it is God's assessment that man goes astray from the womb. If it was truly dependent upon his own choices, it would be impossible for all (as in every single person on earth) by his own choice to be wicked. That makes no sense. If "all" from birth are wicked, then all are in bondage to sin and there is none that has a nature to be good. Not one.

Job 15:14

• "What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?"

Romans 3:10-12

• "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
• There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
• They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Q.E.D, Job and every other man on earth is an unjust man, hypocrite, and WICKED! There is no one who does good or that is righteous by his own choice. It wasn't dependent upon man's choice to do good or evil, it is dependent of God's choice. That is what man is--unable to be clean, righteous or good because he is fallen by nature.

So if the nature of man is neither good nor evil, then why does God insist that there is not one single human being in the entire world that is good? Why is there not one single person that understands? Why is there not one single person that is righteous or that can of his own free choice come to God? Why does God say the wicked go astray from the womb? Is God then incorrect in His assessment of the nature of man?

Psalms 51:5

• "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Without Christ we are ALL wicked, and Scripture says the wicked sin from the womb "naturally," or in other words, because that is man's nature. Shall we argue with God insisting we're good if we decide to be? God forbid, yea, let God be true, but every man a liar.



What does the context of Ecclesiastes 7 talk about? Haven't you bother to check with Ecclesiastes 7:20 which tells you that some are not wicked to began with (before being born again, humm?)

Ecc 7:20

• For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

But you cherry pick those verses that you are comfortable interpreting them the way you want them to be.. You have completed ignored all the verses and dicussions that, not only have been given to you but you are certainly aware of yourself. I am sorry, but this is clearly the interpretation you want to have - it cannot withstand all the other verses that have been placed on your doorstep. And, if they SEEM to contradict themselves, that tells you there is a problem.... not a problem with the verses, only a problem with someone's interpretations. They all have to speak together.

I would like to ask you a question or two but not to drag this out any longer, but are you saying that Satan or Lucifer is not a real entity? If he was a real entity, then can you see how he made a choice to go against God and disobey Him? And that he also wants all of mankind to do the same and worship him and not God? If he is not a real entity, why are the angels spoken of the way they are in all the Scriptures?

 

[TribulationSigns]

But you cherry pick those verses that you are comfortable interpreting them the way you want them to be..

I was not. It was God's Word I quoted that proves you are wrong with your interpretation.

You have completed ignored all the verses and dicussions that, not only have been given to you but you are certainly aware of yourself. I am sorry, but this is clearly the interpretation you want to have - it cannot withstand all the other verses that have been placed on your doorstep

What verses did you quote that refuted my position? There were none!

And, if they SEEM to contradict themselves, that tells you there is a problem.... not a problem with the verses, only a problem with someone's interpretations. They all have to speak together.

Huh? And? Show me the examples. And what does the context of the verses tell you?

I would like to ask you a question or two but not to drag this out any longer, but are you saying that Satan or Lucifer is not a real entity?

No Satan is NOT a created being, or an entity. Like I said many times, it is a SPIRIT within men. We all had it!

Mark 8:31-33

• "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
• And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him and began to rebuke him.
• But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."

It was Peter's spirit that came against Christ's will, correct his conceptions of the Messiah as a Earthly king by explaining the true nature of His Kingdom, suffering, purpose, and atonement and resurrection. Peter did not fully understood it until he was filled with the Holy Spirit after Pentecost.

If he was a real entity

No, Satan was not. I have explained this before.

, then can you see how he made a choice to go against God and disobey Him?

LOL. It was not Satan himself. It is man's spirit that came against Christ and His Kingdom. The very fact that all men aren't called, or all men aren't chosen, proves that it's not about what man wants (free will), but the sovereign will of God.

John 6:44

• "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Which necessarily means, it's impossible for the wicked to come to Christ "unless" God draws (original drags) Him. And the very "fact" that God does not draw "everyone" pretty much puts to rest the theory of anyone can come. Christ Himself said it was impossible for anyone to come to Him except God do the work to draw them. So much for why God would ask man to do what He couldn't do--like come to Christ. This is why all men had spirit of disobedience to begin with. We all born with it! We were dead like a dry bone! We can't resurrect ourselves to accept Christ. No, Christ have to restain our spirit of disobedience to allow the Holy Spirit come and reveal the Truth for us to be saved. It is all God's work. Not our own!

When Christ cast the devils out of people, it is to prove that He is indeed the Messsiah and for us, as Elect, to be able to cast the devil out of people with the preaching of the Gospel. Not physically cast Satan out of their body, but spiritually.

And that he also wants all of mankind to do the same and worship him and not God?

We worship Christ in spirit and truth AFTER we receive His spirit that replaces our spirit of disobedience (aka Satan) that we had since we were born!

If he is not a real entity, why are the angels spoken of the way they are in all the Scriptures?

Show me some examples with Scripture, first.