Freed : From Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Pont.

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Ronald Nolette

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Romans 9.
How much study does it take to discover that it's NOT about individual salvation?
In fact,,,it's not about salvation at all !

But an explanation of WHY the gentiles are being accepted into Judaism.

The question being answered by Paul:
HAS GOD FAILED IN CHOOSING THE JEWS TO WHOM TO REVEAL HIMSELF?
Romans 9:6 Which you did not post up above.

God never fails. He chose the Jews for salvation to come through them....
but they did NOT ACCEPT JESUS....so did God make a mistake?

Why not start a thread on Romans 9?
Not as easy as posting verses....
But the truth would come out.
Well it would take enormous study in false teachings on romans 9.

It is about individual salvation and not gentiles being accepted into Judaism.

Paul was not promoting gentiles entering Judaism ever!

I know you are not a fan of grammar that much, but Paul uses singular verses describing vessels of honour and dishonour.

He also makes the distinction between Jews and Gentiles in the end of that contest in verse 23.

Pharoah and Jacob and Esau are examples used by Paul to show it is by election and not works.

NO god never failed in choosing Israel. He just doesn;t work according to eh plans demanded of by mankind.
 

GodsGrace

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Those people in hell, are there by their own choice.

Your comment suggest that people in hell are innocent.
Elected....
You took this:

for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation.
Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts.
Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

source: John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8



and you got your two points from it?
Which are:
1. People in hell are there by their own choice.
2. People in hell are innocent.

Let's think this through:

1. People in hell are there by their own choice.

How do you figure that??
If God predestinates persons to heaven or hell from the beginning of time...
HOW are they in hell by their own choice?

Are you going to bring up double predestination?
Of course you are.

So......If God chooses some to go to heaven...
what happens to the rest?
He is DEFACTO choosing them for hell.

The reason you, and others, are able to be calvinist in theology is because you refuse to THINK about what you believe.
I'm not saying this to be condescending....I REALLY MEAN IT.
If you take the time to think through what you believe....you'd leave Calvinism in a short period of time because it makes NO SENSE.

Now...maybe we can't know everything about God,,,
but we can surely know what He has revealed to us about Himself and one of those revelations is that
HE IS NOT A GOD OF CONFUSION.
Calvinism causes confusion.

2. People in hell are innocent.

What did I state that caused you to say this?


THIS is what I stated:
IF GOD IS JUST: (which means to give to each man what he deserves)....

And you want to say that all men are sinners....
then all men should go to hell.

or

God must give to each man the opportunity to save himself.
(by accepting His conditions ......IOW,,,,NO Unconditional Election).
Election is CONDITIONAL. As the bible teaches.
 

GodsGrace

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Well it would take enormous study in false teachings on romans 9.

It is about individual salvation and not gentiles being accepted into Judaism.

Paul was not promoting gentiles entering Judaism ever!

I know you are not a fan of grammar that much, but Paul uses singular verses describing vessels of honour and dishonour.

He also makes the distinction between Jews and Gentiles in the end of that contest in verse 23.

Pharoah and Jacob and Esau are examples used by Paul to show it is by election and not works.

NO god never failed in choosing Israel. He just doesn;t work according to eh plans demanded of by mankind.
Not discussing Romans 9 with you or anyone else that cannot take the would be discussion seriously.

Anyway, I don't speak English properly so I don't even understand why you engage with me.

Oh my...Did I just ask you to be my fiancee??
 
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ProDeo

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Rom 9:22 - What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

It's the key verse of Romans 9, easily to overlook.

People (like Pharaoh) don't become vessels of wrath because they are innocent, but after God's long suffering patience and with no repentance in sight.

Compare with Romans 1 and the vessels of wrath in detail.

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
 

GodsGrace

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Rom 9:22 - What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

It's the key verse of Romans 9, easily to overlook.

People (like Pharaoh) don't become vessels of wrath because they are innocent, but after God's long suffering patience and with no repentance in sight.

Compare with Romans 1 and the vessels of wrath in detail.

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Vessels of wrath were also the Israelites that formed and worshipped the golden calf in the wilderness.
God had great patience with them.

God can decide to whom He will give mercy and to whom He will not.
Nothing to do with individual salvation.
Also, a lot of this goes back to the OT, which the Jews would have understood very clearly at Paul's writings...
but which the reformed take at face value and DO NOT STUDY Romans 9 because it does NOT BEHOOVE them to do so.

I've posted articles, videos so many times I've lost count.
And yet, the very same members will keep repeating the same verses over and over.
Truly, satan has blinded some.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Not discussing Romans 9 with you or anyone else that cannot take the would be discussion seriously.

Anyway, I don't speak English properly so I don't even understand why you engage with me.

Oh my...Did I just ask you to be my fiancee??
lfh

I do discuss it seriously. but being 180 degrees near opposaite of you, you do not think me serious.

You give explanations like we all don't know what God is saying.

I give translation and explain just as written.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

This is not a metaphor or allegory for Israel and whoever ( you never did identify Esau in your explanations).

But this and pharoah are examples Paul uses to show that it is by Gods election and not mans works.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

And God is not lousy at language, if he meant some sort of "corporate thing" as you said, He would have used plural and not singular the rest of the chapter.

the very fact that you have yet to aqcknowledge this verse speaks volumes. For this shows it is not about Gentiles becoming Jews but Jews and Gentiles being made vessels of wrath or vessels of honor!
 

GodsGrace

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lfh

I do discuss it seriously. but being 180 degrees near opposaite of you, you do not think me serious.

You give explanations like we all don't know what God is saying.

I give translation and explain just as written.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

This is not a metaphor or allegory for Israel and whoever ( you never did identify Esau in your explanations).

But this and pharoah are examples Paul uses to show that it is by Gods election and not mans works.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

And God is not lousy at language, if he meant some sort of "corporate thing" as you said, He would have used plural and not singular the rest of the chapter.

the very fact that you have yet to aqcknowledge this verse speaks volumes. For this shows it is not about Gentiles becoming Jews but Jews and Gentiles being made vessels of wrath or vessels of honor!
OK
 

GodsGrace

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lfh

I do discuss it seriously. but being 180 degrees near opposaite of you, you do not think me serious.

You give explanations like we all don't know what God is saying.

I give translation and explain just as written.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

This is not a metaphor or allegory for Israel and whoever ( you never did identify Esau in your explanations).

But this and pharoah are examples Paul uses to show that it is by Gods election and not mans works.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

And God is not lousy at language, if he meant some sort of "corporate thing" as you said, He would have used plural and not singular the rest of the chapter.

the very fact that you have yet to aqcknowledge this verse speaks volumes. For this shows it is not about Gentiles becoming Jews but Jews and Gentiles being made vessels of wrath or vessels of honor!
Signing off.
Have a question for you since you're an expert at English.

Is COMPANY a singular word or a plural word?
Is CORPORATION a singular word or a plural word?
Is GROUP a singular word or a plural word?

So if Paul is speaking of a CORPORATION would he use a singular word or a plural word?
(please explain why Paul would have used a plural word).

Maybe you should apologize for CONTINUOUSLY insulting my English.

BTW....do you know the difference between CONTINUOUS and CONSTANT??


This is why I dislike posting to you....
Your insulting attitude.
 

ElectedbyHim

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Romans 9.
How much study does it take to discover that it's NOT about individual salvation?
In fact,,,it's not about salvation at all !

But an explanation of WHY the gentiles are being accepted into Judaism.

The question being answered by Paul:
HAS GOD FAILED IN CHOOSING THE JEWS TO WHOM TO REVEAL HIMSELF?
Romans 9:6 Which you did not post up above.

God never fails. He chose the Jews for salvation to come through them....
but they did NOT ACCEPT JESUS....so did God make a mistake?

Why not start a thread on Romans 9?
Not as easy as posting verses....
But the truth would come out.
Romans 9:1-11:36 Is about salvation and God's sovereign choice in salvation.

God's choice of Jacob resides solely in His own sovereign plan, a perfect example of election unto salvation.

Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

This election in Romans 9 is an illustration of salvation.

This is how salvation works, it is how God elects (predestines) those He has chosen for salvation.

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there any unrighteousness with God? May it never be!
Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
Romans 9:16 So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.

ELECTION

<e-lek’-shun> ([ἐκλογή, ekloge], “choice,” “selection”):

THE WORD IN SCRIPTURE.

The word is absent from the Old Testament, where the related Hebrew verb ([בָּחַר, bachar]) is frequent. In the New Testament it occurs 6 times (Romans 9:11; 11:5, 7, 28; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10). In all these places it appears to denote an act of Divine selection taking effect upon human objects so as to bring them into special and saving relations with God: a selection such as to be at once a mysterious thing, transcending human analysis of its motives (so eminently in Romans 9:11), and such as to be knowable by its objects, who are (2 Pet) exhorted to “make it sure,” certain, a fact to consciousness. It is always (with one exception, Romans 9:11; see below) related to a community, and thus has close affinity with the Old Testament teachings upon the privileged position of Israel as the chosen, selected race (see under ELECT). The objects of election in the New Testament are, in effect, the Israel of God, the new, regenerate race called to special privilege and special service. From one point of view, that of the external marks of Christianity, they may thus be described as the Christian community in its widest sense, the sense in which the sacramental position and the real are prima facie assumed to coincide. But from 2 Peter it is manifest that much more than this has to be said if the incidence of the word present to the writer’s mind is to be rightly felt. It is assumed there that the Christian, baptized and a worshipper, may yet need to make “sure” his “calling and election” as a fact to his consciousness. This implies conditions in the “election” which far transcend the tests of sacred rite and external fellowship.

INCIDENCE UPON COMMUNITY AND INDIVIDUAL.

It is observable that the same characteristic, the inscrutable, the sovereign, is attached in the Old Testament to the “election” of a favored and privileged nation. Israel is repeatedly reminded (see e.g. Deuteronomy 7) that the Divine call and choice of them to be the people of God has no relation to their virtues, or to their strength. The reason lies out of sight, in the Divine mind. So too “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) in the New Testament, the Christian community, “the new, peculiar race,” holds its great privileges by quite unmerited favor (e.g. Titus 3:5). And the nature of the case here leads, as it does not in the case of the natural Israel, to the thought of a Divine election of the individual, similarly inscrutable and sovereign. For the idea of the New Israel involves the thought that in every genuine member of it the provisions of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31 f) are being fulfilled: the sins are remembered no more, and the law is written in the heart. The bearer of the Christian name, but not of the Christian spiritual standing and character, having “not the Spirit of Christ, is none of his” (Romans 8:9). The chosen community accordingly, not as it seems ab extra, but as it is in its essence, is a fellowship of individuals each of whom is an object of unmerited Divine favor, taking effect in the new life. And this involves the exercise of electing mercy. Compare e.g. 1 Peter 1:3. And consider Romans 11:4-7 (where observe the exceptional use of “the election,” meaning “the company of the elect”).

COGNATE AND ILLUSTRATIVE BIBLICAL LANGUAGE.

It is obvious that the aspects of mystery which gather round the word “election” are not confined to it alone. An important class of words, such as “calling,” “predestination” “foreknowledge,” “purpose,” “gift,” bears this same character; asserting or connoting, in appropriate contexts, the element of the inscrutable and sovereign in the action of the Divine will upon man, and particularly upon man’s will and affection toward God. And it will be felt by careful students of the Bible in its larger and more general teachings that one deep characteristic of the Book, which with all its boundless multiplicity is yet one, is to emphasize on the side of man everything that can humble, convict, reduce to worshipping silence (see for typical passages Job 40:3, 1; Romans 3:19), and on the side of God everything which can bring home to man the transcendence and sovereign claims of his almighty Maker. Not as unrelated utterances, but as part of a vast whole of view and teaching, occur such passages as Ephesians 2:8, 9 and Romans 11:33-36, and even the stern, or rather awestruck, phrases of Romans 9:20, 21, where the potter and the clay are used in illustration.
[1]

[2]Orr, J., M.A., D.D. (1999). The International standard Bible encyclopedia : 1915 edition (J. Orr, Ed.). Albany, OR: Ages Software.
 

Bladerunner

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Hello Bladerunner - Do you realize :

1. That the topic of the thread is -- Freed : From Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Pont. --
2. And as such I am arguing against Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Point.
3. That the questions you asked are already answered in the post you responded to.


John Calvin teaches - Unconditional election says that God chooses to save some people and to pass over others. He has a love for some people that He does not have for others.

Do you think this is what Scripture teaches?

I don't.
scripture teaches that God has chosen those whom He wanted to live in Heaven with Him for eternity. All other do not receive this mercy but rather Justice...And you are condemning your own self by calling Him names...Yes, since His words indeed about the doctrines of salvation/election your words are not going to get you in His Grace.
 

GodsGrace

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scripture teaches that God has chosen those whom He wanted to live in Heaven with Him for eternity. All other do not receive this mercy but rather Justice...And you are condemning your own self by calling Him names...Yes, since His words indeed about the doctrines of salvation/election your words are not going to get you in His Grace.
I've noticed that Calvinists are always talking about grace.
And at the same time always talking about hell.
It's interesting.

You say God chose who will be saved.
Where in the NT does it state this?
I haven't found it yet.

You say all others do not receive His mercy.
So then HOW is God merciful if He's only merciful to a few lucky folk?
I read in scripture that God is a MERCIFUL God.
Do you know about Divine Simplicity?
It states that God is not a part of something or anything.
Whatever attribute He has,,,,HE IS that attribute.
YOU may possess love...
but God IS LOVE...as 1 John 4:8 states.

So, you see, God is either merciful to all or He is merciful to none.

Then you state that the other member is not going to get God's grace because you don't like what he said...
when, actually, he told THE TRUTH.
So what are YOU going to get since you change the character of God and make Him out to be a God
that is
NOT LOVING
NOT MERCIFUL
NOT JUST
When the bible is full of verses stating that He is love, merciful and just.
You've just changed the nature and character of God.

Then you say the lost will receive His justice.
This shows that you don't really know what justice is.
Perhaps you could explain it in your reply.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Signing off.
Have a question for you since you're an expert at English.

Is COMPANY a singular word or a plural word?
Is CORPORATION a singular word or a plural word?
Is GROUP a singular word or a plural word?

So if Paul is speaking of a CORPORATION would he use a singular word or a plural word?
(please explain why Paul would have used a plural word).

Maybe you should apologize for CONTINUOUSLY insulting my English.

BTW....do you know the difference between CONTINUOUS and CONSTANT??


This is why I dislike posting to you....
Your insulting attitude.
1. Group is a singular word unless more than one grooup is used.
2. The other two did not exist in Paul sday
3. Yes I do know.
4. there is a difference between Greek and English as you should know.

But as for Romans 9.

You insist that the name Jacob represents Israel and some "corporate salvation" (your words not mine).
So whom do Isaac, Sarah, Rebekkah and Esau stand for???????????????

A normative usual reading of this passage leads all to believe (without pre instruction) to conclude it is talking about individuals. the OT history also shows it is pointing to individuals.

So by what basis do you demand Jacob represents Israel????

Especially in light of verses 14-19 When Paul stresses that Jacob/Esau is an example of diviner election and not choice.

He then brings in another individual, Pharoah, to further highlight election.

Then 20-24 Paul declares god chooses who gets glory and who does not.

To listen to you God is impotent when it comes to saving indiviuals.

Can you imagine if Paul said no? According to you God could do nothing about it.
 

GodsGrace

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1. Group is a singular word unless more than one grooup is used.
2. The other two did not exist in Paul sday
3. Yes I do know.
4. there is a difference between Greek and English as you should know.

But as for Romans 9.

You insist that the name Jacob represents Israel and some "corporate salvation" (your words not mine).
So whom do Isaac, Sarah, Rebekkah and Esau stand for???????????????

A normative usual reading of this passage leads all to believe (without pre instruction) to conclude it is talking about individuals. the OT history also shows it is pointing to individuals.

So by what basis do you demand Jacob represents Israel????

Especially in light of verses 14-19 When Paul stresses that Jacob/Esau is an example of diviner election and not choice.

He then brings in another individual, Pharoah, to further highlight election.

Then 20-24 Paul declares god chooses who gets glory and who does not.

To listen to you God is impotent when it comes to saving indiviuals.

Can you imagine if Paul said no? According to you God could do nothing about it.
Read the following instead of reading only reformed information all the time.



 

Bladerunner

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I've noticed that Calvinists are always talking about grace.
And at the same time always talking about hell.
It's interesting.
Very few pastors/churches preach about and what is the Hell that the majority of people will be for eternity....with no way out. It is sad that they don't for in its place they teach a gospel to make people feel good / following instead their world views. Not good at all.
You say God chose who will be saved.
Where in the NT does it state this?
I haven't found it yet.
see below, I have given you all the verses for the doctrines of election.
You say all others do not receive His mercy.
So then HOW is God merciful if He's only merciful to a few lucky folk?
fortunate to be sure
I read in scripture that God is a MERCIFUL God.
If He were not merciful, He would have ended it with the flood or when we are born...Why bring in "death in sins" to a world already full of them.
Do you know about Divine Simplicity?
I believe in Divine Sovereignty over all things.
It states that God is not a part of something or anything.
Whatever attribute He has,,,,HE IS that attribute.
YOU may possess love...
but God IS LOVE...as 1 John 4:8 states.
Do you love GOD? I ask a son-in-law that once and His answer: We got to do that as well?
what would your answer be......My answer is :I love God because He loved me first long before I could love Him.
So, you see, God is either merciful to all or He is merciful to none.
He gives you rain, air to breath, the very next heart beat....and so on.....you owe Him everything that counts.

If one can not come to believe (in a lifetime on earth) in Him and His Word(s) completely, then His mercy will stop after that individuals life on earth ends.
Then you state that the other member is not going to get God's grace because you don't like what he said...
when, actually, he told THE TRUTH.
It is funny, that you are talking about being a member of His Church yet worried about not receiving the saving Grace. How can you be both....The right answer is : One cannot!

Of course, I am not saying the unbeliever is not going to get God's Grace, But they are HIS WORDS. Please pass the article below around,,,people need to know!
So what are YOU going to get since you change the character of God and make Him out to be a God
that is:
I have done that....Naahhh....only the non-believers see GOD as "NOT LOVING,
NOT MERCIFUL, NOT JUST "
When the bible is full of verses stating that He is love, merciful and just.
You've just changed the nature and character of God.
His love, mercy is extended to all those believing with the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ from before the foundations of the earth... Justice will be served on the unbelieving in a future White Throne Judgement
Then you say the lost will receive His justice.
This shows that you don't really know what justice is.
Perhaps you could explain it in your reply.
Those who doubt(ed), curse(d), hate(d) and (ed) for past and present unbelievers. Future unbelievers is what I believe we are speaking of, right? Or at least I pray and hope so!
 

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Behold

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But as for Romans 9.
1.) "The Vessels fitted for Destruction.."""'

So, that says that someone is "fitted for destruction".
Now that Destruction, is that they will end up in HELL.......that is the Destruction.. its "Eternal Damnation".
Now, John 3:36, just told you, who these Vessels are, and why they are under God's Wrath..... UNTIL.......What??? ??????????????????????
Until they Trust in Christ....and are rescued... REDEEMED from Eternal Judgement. Delivered from God's Wrath.

So, those are the "fitted ones"...the "Vessels"......Who are ALL under God's Wrath...as "Vessels fitted for Damnation"... UNTIL THEY DO WHAT? ???

A.) Believe in Jesus.

So, that verse is saying this.....>>"every one of us....You, me.. us ALL.....were under the wrath of God.. because of our unbelief, until we trusted in Christ" and were SAVED from that Eternal Wrath.
We, ALL of us, were the "vessels fitted for Destruction" and not because we were "chosen" to go to Hell, as LYING JOHN CALVINISM Taught its deceived Disciples to believe.

See that?
That is very easy understand, because its TRUE.

Now, let me show you Calvin's LIE.. the LIE OF Hyper-Calvinism.

This Lie is simply that some are chosen by God, to never be able to believe in Jesus.. so they are CAUSED by GOD to end up as the "Vessels fitted for Destruction".. according to LYING JOHN CALVINISM.
See that Lie?
And that Satanic Theology... is created by changing "Foreknowledge" into "pre-destined". And then Hyper-Calvinism refines this lie by teaching that because you have no Free Will, you can't of yourself trust in Christ.
So, lying Hyper Calvinism, has you ... pre-destined to be a """ Vessel fitted for Destruction"", by eliminating your free will, by changing "God's Foreknowledge" into "God predestined everything".. ..so that you now become predestined to go to Hell, and have no Free will to believe in Christ.
So, this ends up as God choosing you for Hell, and that is unbelievably Satanic, as a Theology, as it denies that Jesus died for everyone..John 3:16... and then Blames God for it.

A.) = That is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, as a Theology.

Now let me show you the most important part of the "vessels fitted" verse so that a Calvinist can't deceive you with it.
The Romans verse says... that God has "long-suffering" toward these "Vessels".
And that is related to this verse...found in 2 Peter

Notice it carefully.

""""The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is LONGSUFFERING toward us, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.""""""

See that? That verse is written to every unbeliever........ALL of them..,
and we were ALL that at one time.........ALL of us... every person.
And when you read the "vessels fitted for Destruction".. it says the same thing.....that God is "" LONGSUFFERING toward them...""

So, reader, THINK......= if these "vessels fitted destruction" are Pre-Destined before they are born to go to Hell and can't Trust in Christ.... because God wont choose them..according to LYING HYPER CALVINISM.....then why is God "Long-Suffering Toward them???..= exactly as He is "longsuffering" toward "US"... in Peter's verse. ??
Its because God is not pre-destining anyone to Hell, as if He had chosen some for Hell, He would not care if they Go...He would not be "Longsuffering" toward them.....at all.....and yet, He is........longsuffering toward these "vessels fitted for detruction" because these are just UNBELIEVERS, who are in John 3:36. And, READER.... that was ALL OF US.. until we were Saved. We were ALL the "vessels fitted for destruction" until we TRUSTED IN CHRIST..

= No one is pre-destined for Hell.
= No one is pre-destined to not be able to trust in Christ.


God is not a Calvinist.
Jesus is not a Calvinist.

Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism, is a Cross Denying SATANIC Theology.

God creates : Christians

John Calvinism, is a ""Doctrine of Devils"", Hebrews 13:9...... and His deceived Disciples feel a inner compulsion, an obsession to try lead you to believe it, and become one.
 
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Behold

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Hebrews 13:9 says that if you dont get your "HEART" established with Grace, then a man-made theology that is demonically inspired will capture your mind and you will become a part of it.

This is inescapable, and that is why you have 45,000 "christian" denominations in the world, including one obviously false one that claims to be the "true church" that teaches complete anti-NT nonsense regarding the Communion and Mary and Water Baptism.

So, what is left?
What is left is the Truth, as its always the Truth that stands up, once you understand how to SEE what isn't true, regarding false doctrine, heresy, and cults.

Now Lets look at Satan's Master Work, that is John Calvinism, or "TULIP">. "Hyper Calvinism".

I want to show the reader who is not yet become a victim of this demonic theological plague on the Body of Christ, how to avoid it.

Now, like all Cult Demonic Theologies........Calvinism is literally erected on about 3-4 verses out of the entire NT that are the CORE warped Theology regarding this "Doctrine of Devils"., with one being the absolute foundation regarding this Cult theology.

I will show you the MAIN offender, later in this Thread... as its twisted by John Calvinists, and once you see this, then the people who live on Forums to try to Sell you their demonic Calvinism, (or from Pulpits)... wont be able to deceive you.
First let me lay some theological and spiritual groundwork.

Now..

John Calvin, was a very poor bible student.. And Here is how He Created Calvinism.. with the help of a Demon.

John Calvin did not understand that the "Foreknowledge" Of God,... is simply and only that God knows everything before it happens next.
So, what Calvin did, is he redefined "God's Foreknowledge", as "God pre-destines everything".
See that?
That is the core ROT, the complete twisting of ONE Concept in the NT.. that Calvin abuses to create all of his false Theology.
What He did was RE-DEFINE... "God's KNOWING Everything before it happens next".. .as = "GOD CAUSING it, all, to happen next".
See that TWIST on the definition?
Calvin redefined "KNOWING all" into "PRE-Destining All", and from that demonic redefining.. Calvin and the evolutionist's of Calvin's doctrine.... just kept on going, kept on twisting verses, and eventually made it even more Cross Denying and Satanic, as the finalized end result : HYPER-Calvinism. "TULIP". "the Five Points" of Calvinism.
 

Behold

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Calvin FALSELY = redefined God "KNOWING all" as God Causing All. And that is redefining "God's Foreknowing all"... as "predestining all" or "God's sovereignty"... And then they also falsely teach that you have no Free Will, as by teaching that = they can finalize their false doctrine like this...

Because you have no Free will, and because God pre-destines everything....then you :

1.) Will be Chosen, to believe......vs, you giving God your Faith.

2.). You are caused to become a Christian, and you have no CHOICE

3.) Some of you are chosen by God.. to go to Hell and then burn in the Lake of Fire. (You are not allowed to Trust in Christ).

See those 3 lies?
They are ALL created by redefining "Foreknowledge".. as "pre-destined".. and then they remove your free will, so that their doctrine of devil's seems to all work together.
Yet, its all just a clever lie.. a terribly clever lie that insults God's Grace and Convicts God of being Evil, while denying The Cross, also.

Now, i want to show you the Hyper Calvinism verse from Romans... that they will use against the Truth to try to to prove that some people are born to be refused God's Son's Salvation.
And that is the most Satanic part of Calvinism.........because it Denies The Cross.

Reader.....Here is part of the verse that the Deceived Calvinist will try to use to try to falsely prove that God wont allow some people to trust in Christ.

First You must read this Verse., to get the CONTEXT of the Hyper Calvinist verse that i'll show you, down below.

John 3:36.

Pull it up. Do a search.. open a BIBLE....and use the KJV... if possible.

These are unbelievers, who are under God's Wrath.... UNTIL they trust in Christ.
So, understand that the wrath of God..... is ON every unbeliever, until they trust in Christ and are rescued from Damnation.
And here is the thing about this situation......Its God's LONG-SUFFERING that is why these who are "under damnation" are given more time.
God is "not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance... = Believe in Jesus".
See that?
God would that "ALL"...........believe in Jesus.

So, keeping that in mind.. that ALL UNBELIEVERS are under God's Wrath,...John 3:36.... until they Trust in Christ and are DELIVERED from that Wrath...

This means that everyone is a John 3:36, until they give their Faith in Christ To God.
And this is THEIR, OUR... YOUR>.. Free well, as you decided to Trust in Christ, and God "counted our faith as (Christ's) Righteousness..

Welcome to : Salvation.

You give God your faith in Christ, and God gives you HIS SALVATION that Jesus completed for you as 'IT IS FINISHED"... Jesus said from The Cross.

See that?
That is JESUS who is God's FREE Gift of Salvation, given to "the World".... John 3:16
 

Behold

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'"God is sovereign = He is free to do as He pleases, and among the things He pleased to do was to give me freedom to do what i please. So when we do as we please we are fulfilling the will of God not controverting it. Because God in His soverenty has soverignly given us freedom to make a free choice. So, if our choice is not the choice that God would have made for us, God's soverignty is fullfilled by us making a free will choice that we are free to make., as this is how Free Will works in a Human who is created as "let US make man in OUR image"... So, "choose this day whom you will serve as you decide, you choose, you make the decision.
Follow me or dont follow me.
Come on or go back.
Go to heaven or go to Hell, as its YOUR CHOICE."
= YOU Decide that, Reader... and GOD will honer your free will choice after you are dead because you followed my soverign will that soverignly will that you be able to make a choice.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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1.) "The Vessels fitted for Destruction.."""'

So, that says that someone is "fitted for destruction".
Now that Destruction, is that they will end up in HELL.......that is the Destruction.. its "Eternal Damnation".
Now, John 3:36, just told you, who these Vessels are, and why they are under God's Wrath..... UNTIL.......What??? ??????????????????????
Until they Trust in Christ....and are rescued... REDEEMED from Eternal Judgement. Delivered from God's Wrath.

So, those are the "fitted ones"...the "Vessels"......Who are ALL under God's Wrath...as "Vessels fitted for Damnation"... UNTIL THEY DO WHAT? ???

A.) Believe in Jesus.

So, that verse is saying this.....>>"every one of us....You, me.. us ALL.....were under the wrath of God.. because of our unbelief, until we trusted in Christ" and were SAVED from that Eternal Wrath.
We, ALL of us, were the "vessels fitted for Destruction" and not because we were "chosen" to go to Hell, as LYING JOHN CALVINISM Taught its deceived Disciples to believe.

See that?
That is very easy understand, because its TRUE.

Now, let me show you Calvin's LIE.. the LIE OF Hyper-Calvinism.

This Lie is simply that some are chosen by God, to never be able to believe in Jesus.. so they are CAUSED by GOD to end up as the "Vessels fitted for Destruction".. according to LYING JOHN CALVINISM.
See that Lie?
And that Satanic Theology... is created by changing "Foreknowledge" into "pre-destined". And then Hyper-Calvinism refines this lie by teaching that because you have no Free Will, you can't of yourself trust in Christ.
So, lying Hyper Calvinism, has you ... pre-destined to be a """ Vessel fitted for Destruction"", by eliminating your free will, by changing "God's Foreknowledge" into "God predestined everything".. ..so that you now become predestined to go to Hell, and have no Free will to believe in Christ.
So, this ends up as God choosing you for Hell, and that is unbelievably Satanic, as a Theology, as it denies that Jesus died for everyone..John 3:16... and then Blames God for it.

A.) = That is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, as a Theology.

Now let me show you the most important part of the "vessels fitted" verse so that a Calvinist can't deceive you with it.
The Romans verse says... that God has "long-suffering" toward these "Vessels".
And that is related to this verse...found in 2 Peter

Notice it carefully.

""""The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is LONGSUFFERING toward us, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.""""""

See that? That verse is written to every unbeliever........ALL of them..,
and we were ALL that at one time.........ALL of us... every person.
And when you read the "vessels fitted for Destruction".. it says the same thing.....that God is "" LONGSUFFERING toward them...""

So, reader, THINK......= if these "vessels fitted destruction" are Pre-Destined before they are born to go to Hell and can't Trust in Christ.... because God wont choose them..according to LYING HYPER CALVINISM.....then why is God "Long-Suffering Toward them???..= exactly as He is "longsuffering" toward "US"... in Peter's verse. ??
Its because God is not pre-destining anyone to Hell, as if He had chosen some for Hell, He would not care if they Go...He would not be "Longsuffering" toward them.....at all.....and yet, He is........longsuffering toward these "vessels fitted for detruction" because these are just UNBELIEVERS, who are in John 3:36. And, READER.... that was ALL OF US.. until we were Saved. We were ALL the "vessels fitted for destruction" until we TRUSTED IN CHRIST..

= No one is pre-destined for Hell.
= No one is pre-destined to not be able to trust in Christ.


God is not a Calvinist.
Jesus is not a Calvinist.

Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism, is a Cross Denying SATANIC Theology.

God creates : Christians

John Calvinism, is a ""Doctrine of Devils"", Hebrews 13:9...... and His deceived Disciples feel a inner compulsion, an obsession to try lead you to believe it, and become one.
This coming from one who is a staunch four point Calvinist believer. the extreme hubris and hypocrisy is very very amusing!.
 
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