Earning Knowledge of God / Eternal Life

[GracePeace]

No actually that's the grammar of the passage. "Accuse" is in the active voice, which means they are doing it to others. "Excuse" is a defective verb, which is to say the Middle/Reflexive voice and the Passive voice are spelled the same, so it could be either.

The reason it says the action is being done to anther is because it is their own thoughts which are doing it to them. Testifying against or for them.

In this context, "excusing others" is used as part of an argument to show that the person doing this has at least some undersanding of right and wrong.

No, not at all.
Paul knows the Law is being written on their hearts because they're believers. The issue isn't whether or not they know good and evil, or in what sense, he is discussing the FACT that they are doers of the Law who will be justified. This goes to his argument that the Jewish believers need to watch their prideful step and stopooking down on their believing Gentile brothers, as previously explained.

That being the case, Passive voice wouldn't fit, because that would require a second party speaker, not the person them self. Therefore this out be the Middle/Reflexive voice, meaning that they are doing this to themself, that is, excusing themself.

So they accuse others, and excuse themself. That's the meaning of this part of the passage.

Much love!

No. Their thoughts are going to bear witness for or against them when they are judged. This describes what will happen in the Day of Judgment.

 

[marks]

No, Paul knows the Law is being written on their hearts because they're believers. The issue isn't whether or not they know good and evil, or in what sense, he is discussing the FACT that they are doers of the Law who will be justified.

There seems to be a conflict in what you are saying. You are saying they will be justified being doers of the Law, but you also acknowledge that they don't keep it 100%. It means they are lawbreakers, how would that justify them?

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I believe in a final judgment of works, but not as a determiner for whether we will live with God in eternity or not. I believe the redeemed will be judged for rewards, while the unredeemed will be judged for punishments.

Ro 2 says the upcoming judgment will decide eternal life. Jesus says the same in Jn 5.

I believe that rebirth in Christ is forever. We didn't make ourselves reborn, and neither can we undo it. God has said He never will in a dozen different ways.

Much love!

Yeah we've discussed it. We don't see eye to eye.

 

[marks]

The reason it says the action is being done to anther is because it is their own thoughts which are doing it to them. Testifying against or for them.

That would be reflexive voice, which is used in the "excusing" part. I can't agree with you on this. That's the grammar.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

There seems to be a conflict in what you are saying. You are saying they will be justified being doers of the Law, but you also acknowledge that they don't keep it 100%. It means they are lawbreakers, how would that justify them?

Much love!

Yeah, it's clear their thoughts will accuse them. And somehow this determines eternal life.

 

[GracePeace]

That would be reflexive voice, which is used in the "excusing" part. I can't agree with you on this. That's the grammar.

Much love!

You're trying to say "Look what these Gentiles do", but it isn't about what they do, it's about what will occur at the Judgment.

 

[marks]

Yeah we've discussed it. We don't see eye to eye.

I'm often not sure what I've discussed with whom, but I appreciate we can disagree nicely!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yeah, it's clear their thoughts will accuse them. And somehow this determines eternal life.

I believe eternal life is determined by whether God has given us regeneration, which He gives if we believe/receive Jesus. We are baptized into Jesus, to share His death and resurrection. After that our lives are about doing the good works He's appointed for us to do, as our character/soul is reformed to be like Jesus.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I believe eternal life is determined by whether God has given us regeneration, which He gives if we believe/receive Jesus. We are baptized into Jesus, to share His death and resurrection. After that our lives are about doing the good works He's appointed for us to do, as our character/soul is reformed to be like Jesus.

Much love!

Yeah, I know that part of the Bible exists, but I also acknowledge other parts. That is why I talk about the difficulty in reconciling these ideas.

 

[marks]

You're trying to say "Look what these Gentiles do", but it isn't about what they do, it's about what will occur at the Judgment.

I'm more saying that Paul is writing about the things people think about themselves, and God, that fool them into thinking they are OK with God. He gives the examples, and goes on to show how it's wrong to think that way, and that in fact everyone is guilty before God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yeah, I know that part of the Bible exists, but I also acknowledge other parts. That is why I talk about the difficulty in reconciling these ideas.

Naturally I acknowledge those other parts as well! :-) Reconciling passages can require drilling into the details including these bits of grammar. I've found reconciliation throughout the Scriptures, but not everyone agrees with my views, as you yourself can attest.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I'm more saying that Paul is writing about the things people think about themselves, and God, that fool them into thinking they are OK with God. He gives the examples, and goes on to show how it's wrong to think that way, and that in fact everyone is guilty before God.

Much love!

He describes what will occur on the Day of Judgment "their thoughts accusing or else excusing them on the Day when according to my Gospel God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Christ Jesus."

It is not a descriptor of their manner--"These Gentiles are hypocrites!" He literally just identified them as "doers of the Law" and continues holding them up as contrasts to the unrighteous Jewish believers.

Again his issue is attacking the trust and boast the Jewish believers have in their knowledge of Torah (without doing it), their physical circumcision, their lineage, on account of which they look down on the Gentile believers in the Roman Church.

 

[GracePeace]

Naturally I acknowledge those other parts as well! :-) Reconciling passages can require drilling into the details including these bits of grammar. I've found reconciliation throughout the Scriptures, but not everyone agrees with my views, as you yourself can attest.

Much love!

Yup

 

[marks]

You're trying to say "Look what these Gentiles do", but it isn't about what they do, it's about what will occur at the Judgment.

Romans 2:12-16 KJV
12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The KJV translators put parentheses around verses 13-15. This would make vs 16 a continuation of the thought in vs 12. If you read it this way, around the parentheses, it reads,

2) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
...
16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

This reading shows God doing the judging, and giving an example

If you continue the thought from 15 to 16, as if there is no parentheses, then you have God's judgment being the thoughts of the men accusing or excusing.

I think the KJV has it right here, that Paul inserts an explanation of those who have sinned without Law, showing that God is justified to judge them, because they knew right and wrong, and did wrong.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Romans 2:12-16 KJV
12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The KJV translators put parentheses around verses 13-15. This would make vs 16 a continuation of the thought in vs 12. If you read it this way, around the parentheses, it reads,

2) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
...
16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

This reading shows God doing the judging, and giving an example

If you continue the thought from 15 to 16, as if there is no parentheses, then you have God's judgment being the thoughts of the men accusing or excusing.

I think the KJV has it right here, that Paul inserts an explanation of those who have sinned without Law, showing that God is justified to judge them, because they knew right and wrong, and did wrong.

Much love!

Well, good thing I'm not a KJV-onlyist!

 

[marks]

It is not a descriptor of their manner--"These Gentiles are hypocrites!" He literally just identified them as "doers of the Law".

Romans 2:12-16 KJV
12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Actually, he didn't say the Gentiles were doers of the Law, as a blanket statement. He said as a generality, "doers of the Law shall be justified". He goes on to speak of when they do the things contained in the Law, but this isn't a statement saying they always do.

And Paul is very very specific to say that all have in fact sinned, and fallen short of God's glory. And in saying that, he cuts across all the arguments, law, no law, whatever, no one measures up to God's glory.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well, good thing I'm not a KJV-onlyist!

Me too! So we have this in common!

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Romans 2:12-16 KJV
12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The KJV translators put parentheses around verses 13-15. This would make vs 16 a continuation of the thought in vs 12. If you read it this way, around the parentheses, it reads,

2) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
...
16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

This reading shows God doing the judging, and giving an example

If you continue the thought from 15 to 16, as if there is no parentheses, then you have God's judgment being the thoughts of the men accusing or excusing.

I think the KJV has it right here, that Paul inserts an explanation of those who have sinned without Law, showing that God is justified to judge them, because they knew right and wrong, and did wrong.

Much love!

No, the whole point is the Jewish believers should stop trusting and boasting in their Jewishness, circumcision, and knowledge of good and evil (knowledge of Torah), and, as a result, looking down on their believing Gentile brothers. He continues holding them up against the Jewish believers, saying they are keeping God's statutes (Ro 2:26,27).

 

[GracePeace]

Romans 2:12-16 KJV
12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Actually, he didn't say the Gentiles were doers of the Law, as a blanket statement. He said as a generality, "doers of the Law shall be justified". He goes on to speak of when they do the things contained in the Law, but this isn't a statement saying they always do.

And Paul is very very specific to say that all have in fact sinned, and fallen short of God's glory. And in saying that, he cuts across all the arguments, law, no law, whatever, no one measures up to God's glory.

Much love!

BRB just got out of dialysis

 

[GracePeace]

Romans 2:12-16 KJV
12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Actually, he didn't say the Gentiles were doers of the Law, as a blanket statement. He said as a generality, "doers of the Law shall be justified". He goes on to speak of when they do the things contained in the Law, but this isn't a statement saying they always do.

And Paul is very very specific to say that all have in fact sinned, and fallen short of God's glory. And in saying that, he cuts across all the arguments, law, no law, whatever, no one measures up to God's glory.

Much love!

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