Freed : From Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Pont.

[Ronald Nolette]

You're stating that man cannot seek God.
You keep posting verses that do NOT support your view.

For instance,,,you post a verse that states that all men have sinned....
we all know this.
BUT it does NOT state that man is not able to seek God.

I, OTOH, have posted tens of verses that state that man CAN seek God and even MUST seek God.

Do you not believe the bible?

1 cor 2 and Romans 3 proves nothing and I've explained why.

You otoh have not posted unsaved man can seek god, but saved people are commanded to.

Rom. 3:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Either this verse is true orn ot for all time

Answer this question--Does seeking god please god?

If yes then

Rom. 8:8 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If you can prove to me seekingf after god does not please Him, then I will agree that an unsaved person in theire flesh that is popposed ot god can please god.

Is seeking God a good thing?

Then romans 7: 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

If you are oging to post verses about people seekin gGod- first look at who it is- saved or unsaved.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you not believe the bible?

1 cor 2 and Romans 3 proves nothing and I've explained why.

I do not believe your commentary of the bible, that is what you gave. You have given eisegesis where as I have given you exegesis.

If you believe Romans 3 is just historical, then do you hold that some are righteous now? Not all have sinned? Unsaved throats are open sepulchres?

There is nothing an unsaved person can do that God finds righteous! Even teh unsaved "good works" as the bibe says:

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

show me with romans 8:8 before you how an unsaved person can do anything to please God- God calls it impossible- you call it possible.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Calvin (in the U of Unconditional Election section of TULIP) states -

Unconditional election says that God chooses to save some people and to pass over others. He has a love for some people that He does not have for others.

And according to Calvin there is no way to know it who is elect and who is not, while Scripture says otherwise, then who is right? I would say Scripture.

Following Calvin you have to live your life in fear because it is impossible to know if you belong to the elect, Scripture teaches otherwise, you can know, dozen of examples, my favorite one : 1 Cor 6:20 - for you were bought with a price. I am His, He has chosen me before the foundation of the world, I don't have to fear.

And according to Calvin there is no way to know it who is elect and who is not, while Scripture says otherwise, then who is right? I would say Scripture.

This is why we preach the Gospel, we do not know who is God's elect.

Calvin is not saying that we cannot discern who the elect are when preaching.

All those who I have know who believes in the Doctrines of Grace, know they are the elect.

Following Calvin you have to live your life in fear because it is impossible to know if you belong to the elect, Scripture teaches otherwise, you can know, dozen of examples, my favorite one : 1 Cor 6:20 - for you were bought with a price. I am His, He has chosen me before the foundation of the world, I don't have to fear.

I do not follow Calvin, but I have never heard this in 20 years of studying Gods word and the Reformed/calvinist teaching.

The only ones I here that from is those who believe in free will and that you can lose your salvation.

If any of the Reformed/Calvinists on this board do not know if they are the elect or even saved, please chime in.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

OK Ronald Nolette
We tried again and you always end up with with personal insults.
Maybe because you get frustrated in not being able to come up with good verses...I don't know why.

But, let me repeat:
I DO NOT HOLD TO ANY OF THE 5 POINTS, THE 7 POINTS OR ANY OTHER POINTS.

You may wish to believe you're not calvinist...
but you walk like a duck.
You talk like a duck.
You wag your tail like a duck.

You must be a duck.

And therein is the guilt of you rinsultin! But you are too enamored in the caricature you have made of me and attack that instead of dealing with the real me.

So as you do not hold to any of the fiv epoints as you in Caps wrote then if any ask of what you believe I will openly respond this:

T= Gods Grace does not believe unsaved man is dead in their trespasses and sins and is capable in their own human nature that they can do things that please God. This is the opposite of T

U- Gods Grace believes man must perform some sort of works before they can approach Jesus to ask HIm to save them, this would mean you reject Eph. 2:8-10 because you believe that election is conditioned on one performing some kind of works.

L- Gods Grace believes that every single persons sins have been atoned for or erased, regardless of whether they have trustedin Christ first or not. The athiest and satanist have all their sins forgiven already.

I- Well we know you believe that mans will when it comes ot salvation is sovereign over Gods Will. God could sovereignly will a person to be saved, but Gods Grace says- if that person does not want to- god is impotent to do anything about it.

P- Gods grace believes that once a person is saved- they can lost their salvation somehow someway.

I will forthwith inform anyone who asks me about your belief on TULIP what you believe.

 

[Ritajanice]

P- Gods grace believes that once a person is saved- they can lost their salvation somehow someway

John 10​

​

King James Version​

​

​

10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.

 

[GodsGrace]

You otoh have not posted unsaved man can seek god, but saved people are commanded to.

Rom. 3:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Either this verse is true orn ot for all time

Answer this question--Does seeking god please god?

If yes then

Rom. 8:8 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If you can prove to me seekingf after god does not please Him, then I will agree that an unsaved person in theire flesh that is popposed ot god can please god.

Is seeking God a good thing?

Then romans 7: 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

If you are oging to post verses about people seekin gGod- first look at who it is- saved or unsaved.

Same verse as always.
And you think I'm going to keep EXPLAINING them to you?

Enough of this.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not believe your commentary of the bible, that is what you gave. You have given eisegesis where as I have given you exegesis.

If you believe Romans 3 is just historical, then do you hold that some are righteous now? Not all have sinned? Unsaved throats are open sepulchres?

There is nothing an unsaved person can do that God finds righteous! Even teh unsaved "good works" as the bibe says:

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

show me with romans 8:8 before you how an unsaved person can do anything to please God- God calls it impossible- you call it possible.

The filthy rags.
Yeah.

I do eisegesis
but YOU
do exegesis.

Good.
I commend you.

 

[GodsGrace]

And therein is the guilt of you rinsultin! But you are too enamored in the caricature you have made of me and attack that instead of dealing with the real me.

So as you do not hold to any of the fiv epoints as you in Caps wrote then if any ask of what you believe I will openly respond this:

T= Gods Grace does not believe unsaved man is dead in their trespasses and sins and is capable in their own human nature that they can do things that please God. This is the opposite of T

U- Gods Grace believes man must perform some sort of works before they can approach Jesus to ask HIm to save them, this would mean you reject Eph. 2:8-10 because you believe that election is conditioned on one performing some kind of works.

L- Gods Grace believes that every single persons sins have been atoned for or erased, regardless of whether they have trustedin Christ first or not. The athiest and satanist have all their sins forgiven already.

I- Well we know you believe that mans will when it comes ot salvation is sovereign over Gods Will. God could sovereignly will a person to be saved, but Gods Grace says- if that person does not want to- god is impotent to do anything about it.

P- Gods grace believes that once a person is saved- they can lost their salvation somehow someway.

I will forthwith inform anyone who asks me about your belief on TULIP what you believe.

Thanks Ronald.
I'm so happy that you know me so well as to know everything I believe.
And it's wonderful that those to whom you expose my beliefs just might believe you.
Yeah.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The filthy rags.
Yeah.

I do eisegesis
but YOU
do exegesis.

Good.
I commend you.

YOur last line is the first nice and true thing you have written about me since we engaged each other in discussion.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Same verse as always.
And you think I'm going to keep EXPLAINING them to you?

You casn't see how you have twisted the Word of God and made it the word of Gods grace. When we leave accepting what is written is true- and then have to expalin what God really meant- we are promoting our own opinioon and not the word of God.

You never proved your explanations, though I suspected you wouldn't and couldn't.

 

[GodsGrace]

You casn't see how you have twisted the Word of God and made it the word of Gods grace. When we leave accepting what is written is true- and then have to expalin what God really meant- we are promoting our own opinioon and not the word of God.

You never proved your explanations, though I suspected you wouldn't and couldn't.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
. 23But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Calvin (in the U of Unconditional Election section of TULIP) states -

Unconditional election says that God chooses to save some people and to pass over others. He has a love for some people that He does not have for others.

And according to Calvin there is no way to know it who is elect and who is not, while Scripture says otherwise, then who is right? I would say Scripture.

Following Calvin you have to live your life in fear because it is impossible to know if you belong to the elect, Scripture teaches otherwise, you can know, dozen of examples, my favorite one : 1 Cor 6:20 - for you were bought with a price. I am His, He has chosen me before the foundation of the world, I don't have to fear.

Following Calvin you have to live your life in fear because it is impossible to know if you belong to the elect, Scripture teaches otherwise, you can know, dozen of examples, my favorite one : 1 Cor 6:20 - for you were bought with a price. I am His, He has chosen me before the foundation of the world, I don't have to fear.

Just came across this.

Below the following comment is a commentary from Calvin on select Scriptures about assurance of salvation.

Calvin makes much of the promises of God as the ground of assurance, because these promises depend on the very nature of that God who cannot lie rather than on any works performed by sinners.15 Moreover, since faith takes its character from the promise on which it rests, faith takes to itself the infallible stamp of God’s very Word, and so possesses assurance in its very nature. Assurance, confidence, certainty, trust—all belong to the essence of faith.

This assured and assuring faith is the gift and work of the Holy Spirit granted to the elect. The Spirit persuades the elect sinner of the reliability of God’s promise in Christ and grants faith to embrace that Word.16

Thus, for Calvin assuring faith joins indissolubly with saving knowledge, the Scriptures, Jesus Christ, God’s promises, the work of the Holy Spirit, and election. In a word, God Himself is the assurance of the elect. Assurance is gratuitously founded upon God; apart from God’s grace, a sinner cannot experience it in any way.17[1]
15 Inst. 3.2.29, 41; Commentary (on Acts 2:39).
16 Inst. 3.2.16.
17 Commentary (on Rom 8:16; 1 Pet 1:4; Heb 4:10).
[1] Joel R. Beeke, “Does Assurance Belong to the Essence of Faith? Calvin and the Calvinists,” Master’s Seminary Journal 5, no. 1 (1994): 50.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

rendersσυμμαρτυρεῖ τῶ πνεύματι ἡμῶν, “testifies together with our spirit — una cum nostro spiritu,” and the Vulqate “testifies to our spirit,” as though the verb had not its compound; and it is said to have only the simpler meaning of testifying, though compounded, in Rom_9:1; and in Rev_22:18, where it has a dative case after it as here, “I testify to every man,” etc. The soul appears to be here called “spirit,” because the renewed soul is intended, or the soul having the spirit of adoption; or it may be an instance of the Apostle’s mode of writing, who often puts the same word twice in a sentence, but in a different meaning. The Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit, say [Origen ] and [Theodoret ], by producing obedience, love, and imitation of God, which are evidences of our adoption; but [Chrysostom ] and [Ambrose ] say, by enabling us to cry Abba, Father, according to to former verse. The latter seems to be the meaning adopted by [Calvin ] It is said by [Estius ], according to [Poole ], that the compound verb is never used without the idea of a joint-testimony being implied, and that in Rev_22:18, it is a testimony in conjunction with Christ. Then the import of this text would be, that the Holy Spirit testifies, together with the spirit of adoption, to our spirit, to our soul or renewed mind, that we are the children of God. Thus a direct influence of the Spirit, in addition to that which is sanctifying and filial, seems to have been intended.

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

4To an inheritance (8) The three words which follow are intended to amplify God’s grace; for Peter (as I have before said) had this object in view, to impress our minds thoroughly as to its excellency. Moreover, these two clauses, “to an inheritance incorruptible,” etc., and “to salvation ready to be revealed,” I deem as being in apposition, the latter being explanatory of the former; for he expresses the same thing in two ways.

Every word which follows is weighty. The inheritance is said to be reserved, or preserved, that we may know that it is beyond the reach of danger. For, were it not in God’s hand, it might be exposed to endless dangers. If it were in this world, how could we regard it as safe amidst so many changes? That he might then free us from every fear, he testifies that our salvation is placed in safety beyond the harms which Satan can do. But as the certainty of salvation can bring us but little comfort, except each one knows that it belongs to himself, Peter adds, for you For consciences will calmly recumb here, that is, when the Lord cries to them from heaven, “Behold, your salvation is in my hand and is kept for you.” But as salvation is not indiscriminately for all, he calls our attention to faith, that all who are endued with faith, might be distinguished from the rest, and that they might not doubt but that they are the true and legitimate heirs of God. For, as faith penetrates into the heavens, so also it appropriates to us the blessings which are in heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

Just came across this.

Below the following comment is a commentary from Calvin on select Scriptures about assurance of salvation.

Calvin makes much of the promises of God as the ground of assurance, because these promises depend on the very nature of that God who cannot lie

Calvin speaks of the VERY NATURE OF GOD. (quoted by you above, highlighted by me).

The same God that decided before the creation of time to send most of humanity to hell, through no fault of their own.
A rather UNJUST God....
Some nature!

rather than on any works performed by sinners.15 Moreover, since faith takes its character from the promise on which it rests, faith takes to itself the infallible stamp of God’s very Word, and so possesses assurance in its very nature. Assurance, confidence, certainty, trust—all belong to the essence of faith.

This assured and assuring faith is the gift and work of the Holy Spirit granted to the elect. The Spirit persuades the elect sinner of the reliability of God’s promise in Christ

Then you quote Calvin regarding the promises of God and the reliability of His promises in Christ !

Which promises would those be?
The promise that God could save some lucky folk based on nothing but His good pleasure, as John Calvin teaches?
OR
The promise that salvation would be for all mankind, as described in the Covenant of Abraham as the bible teaches?

And, as to both the fact that you say God does not lie and that He keeps His promises...
I offer to you the following, also directly from Calvin himself:


for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation.
Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts.
Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

source: John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8


I would also add, that as @ProDeo has stated,,,,due to the above, a reformed/calvinist believer can never be secure in his belief that he is saved. (for the very reason stated above by John Calvin).

and grants faith to embrace that Word.16

Thus, for Calvin assuring faith joins indissolubly with saving knowledge, the Scriptures, Jesus Christ, God’s promises, the work of the Holy Spirit, and election. In a word, God Himself is the assurance of the elect. Assurance is gratuitously founded upon God; apart from God’s grace, a sinner cannot experience it in any way.17[1]
15 Inst. 3.2.29, 41; Commentary (on Acts 2:39).
16 Inst. 3.2.16.
17 Commentary (on Rom 8:16; 1 Pet 1:4; Heb 4:10).
[1] Joel R. Beeke, “Does Assurance Belong to the Essence of Faith? Calvin and the Calvinists,” Master’s Seminary Journal 5, no. 1 (1994): 50.





Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

rendersσυμμαρτυρεῖ τῶ πνεύματι ἡμῶν, “testifies together with our spirit — una cum nostro spiritu,” and the Vulqate “testifies to our spirit,” as though the verb had not its compound; and it is said to have only the simpler meaning of testifying, though compounded, in Rom_9:1; and in Rev_22:18, where it has a dative case after it as here, “I testify to every man,” etc. The soul appears to be here called “spirit,” because the renewed soul is intended, or the soul having the spirit of adoption; or it may be an instance of the Apostle’s mode of writing, who often puts the same word twice in a sentence, but in a different meaning. The Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit, say [Origen ] and [Theodoret ], by producing obedience, love, and imitation of God, which are evidences of our adoption; but [Chrysostom ] and [Ambrose ] say, by enabling us to cry Abba, Father, according to to former verse. The latter seems to be the meaning adopted by [Calvin ] It is said by [Estius ], according to [Poole ], that the compound verb is never used without the idea of a joint-testimony being implied, and that in Rev_22:18, it is a testimony in conjunction with Christ. Then the import of this text would be, that the Holy Spirit testifies, together with the spirit of adoption, to our spirit, to our soul or renewed mind, that we are the children of God. Thus a direct influence of the Spirit, in addition to that which is sanctifying and filial, seems to have been intended.

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

4To an inheritance (8) The three words which follow are intended to amplify God’s grace; for Peter (as I have before said) had this object in view, to impress our minds thoroughly as to its excellency. Moreover, these two clauses, “to an inheritance incorruptible,” etc., and “to salvation ready to be revealed,” I deem as being in apposition, the latter being explanatory of the former; for he expresses the same thing in two ways.

Every word which follows is weighty. The inheritance is said to be reserved, or preserved, that we may know that it is beyond the reach of danger. For, were it not in God’s hand, it might be exposed to endless dangers. If it were in this world, how could we regard it as safe amidst so many changes? That he might then free us from every fear, he testifies that our salvation is placed in safety beyond the harms which Satan can do. But as the certainty of salvation can bring us but little comfort, except each one knows that it belongs to himself, Peter adds, for you For consciences will calmly recumb here, that is, when the Lord cries to them from heaven, “Behold, your salvation is in my hand and is kept for you.” But as salvation is not indiscriminately for all, he calls our attention to faith, that all who are endued with faith, might be distinguished from the rest, and that they might not doubt but that they are the true and legitimate heirs of God. For, as faith penetrates into the heavens, so also it appropriates to us the blessings which are in heave

 

[Ronald Nolette]

2 Timothy 2:24-26
. 23But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Your insulting is more subtle than Behold but you do insult . You post foolosih responses the you should know better.

You reject what a person says about themselves and continue to react according to is a lie you created about them. If you had bothered to take 5 minutes to ask a few questions, you would have known long ago, I am not a Calvinist nor reformed. But even after I told you know you persisted in you rlie.

You do not like bluntness- that is your problem not mine. I cannot have a lisat of each person on these boards and wondering how blunt or non-blunt I must be so as not to offend some peoples thin skinned sensibilities.

Remember by your own capital letter writing, you reject eternal security, all men are lost (none righteous), only those saved have their sins removed and you believe man has conditions to complete before He can come to Jesus by Faith.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Calvin speaks of the VERY NATURE OF GOD. (quoted by you above, highlighted by me).

The same God that decided before the creation of time to send most of humanity to hell, through no fault of their own.
A rather UNJUST God....
Some nature!



Then you quote Calvin regarding the promises of God and the reliability of His promises in Christ !

Which promises would those be?
The promise that God could save some lucky folk based on nothing but His good pleasure, as John Calvin teaches?
OR
The promise that salvation would be for all mankind, as described in the Covenant of Abraham as the bible teaches?

And, as to both the fact that you say God does not lie and that He keeps His promises...
I offer to you the following, also directly from Calvin himself:


for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation.
Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts.
Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

source: John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8


I would also add, that as @ProDeo has stated,,,,due to the above, a reformed/calvinist believer can never be secure in his belief that he is saved. (for the very reason stated above by John Calvin).

The same God that decided before the creation of time to send most of humanity to hell, through no fault of their own.

Those people in hell, are there by their own choice.

Your comment suggest that people in hell are innocent.

 

[Bladerunner]

I don't doubt, I just reasoned against TULIP, Calvinism and Reformed theology.

You just reasoned it out...what about those words you read in the Bible, do they not mean anything?

I am raised in a (back then) Calvinistic / Reformed country. In my youth I was told that after death God decides where I will end up in Heaven or Hell and that there is no way you can know that in this life because it is God Who decides if you are predestined to belong to the elect or not.

Do you believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God?

When I came to Christ and started to read the Bible (John 3:16 and many other verses) it became an eyeopener, eternal life is promised, you can know and don't have to live in fear the rest of your life. And I believed it, what a relief....

With the new knowledge I told my lovely grandmother, great news, Jesus says believe in Me and you have eternal life. And she said, no no, you can not say that, nobody but God knows and I reasoned, granny look here and here, but no, she would not hear.

Same happened when I told my father-in-law, a fine man, and an elder in the reformed church, of course he was delighted that I repented but (John 3:16 etc.) and security suffered the same shipwreck, YOU CAN NOT KNOW was the message. My wife and I have sit on his deathbed and the fear in his eyes I will never forget, so sad.

It is so sad that some churches theology takes away the joy of knowing, loving and believing in Jesus Christ and His word.

But.... according TULIP they were right, you can not know, a quote -

Unconditional election says that God chooses to save some people and to pass over others. He has a love for some people that He does not have for others.

We are all appointed death and Hell for our sins, It is called Justice....Yet, God and His Great Mercylooks down and justifies many. This MERCY is something that none of us deserves but GOD gives it to us anyway and the others they receive the Justice for their sins.

Nobody can know where he/she ends up after death, only God knows, at least that is according TULIP, Calvinism and Reformed theology.

Let me ask you something, Have you really read John 3:16 ' For God so Loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him will have every lasting life.' Did/do you believe in Him as your savior....as the verse states.....Do you believe in HIS WORD, the Bible and every word in it as Inerrant, and Jesus as the Author of every word on both OT and NT pages within. If you do not then how can you truly believe for if can not believe in what GOD says then all you can say is 'Some one told me' instead of "Yeah, Hath GOD Said" You got some decisions to make, hope you make the true.

 

[ProDeo]

Calvin speaks of the VERY NATURE OF GOD. (quoted by you above, highlighted by me).

The same God that decided before the creation of time to send most of humanity to hell, through no fault of their own.
A rather UNJUST God....
Some nature!

Then you quote Calvin regarding the promises of God and the reliability of His promises in Christ !

Which promises would those be?
The promise that God could save some lucky folk based on nothing but His good pleasure, as John Calvin teaches?
OR
The promise that salvation would be for all mankind, as described in the Covenant of Abraham as the bible teaches?

And, as to both the fact that you say God does not lie and that He keeps His promises...
I offer to you the following, also directly from Calvin himself:

for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation.
Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts.
Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

source: John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8


I would also add, that as @ProDeo has stated,,,,due to the above, a reformed/calvinist believer can never be secure in his belief that he is saved. (for the very reason stated above by John Calvin).

You just reasoned it out...what about those words you read in the Bible, do they not mean anything?

Do you believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God?

It is so sad that some churches theology takes away the joy of knowing, loving and believing in Jesus Christ and His word.

We are all appointed death and Hell for our sins, It is called Justice....Yet, God and His Great Mercylooks down and justifies many. This MERCY is something that none of us deserves but GOD gives it to us anyway and the others they receive the Justice for their sins.

Let me ask you something, Have you really read John 3:16 ' For God so Loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him will have every lasting life.' Did/do you believe in Him as your savior....as the verse states.....Do you believe in HIS WORD, the Bible and every word in it as Inerrant, and Jesus as the Author of every word on both OT and NT pages within. If you do not then how can you truly believe for if can not believe in what GOD says then all you can say is 'Some one told me' instead of "Yeah, Hath GOD Said" You got some decisions to make, hope you make the true.

Hello Bladerunner - Do you realize :

1. That the topic of the thread is -- Freed : From Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Pont. --
2. And as such I am arguing against Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Point.
3. That the questions you asked are already answered in the post you responded to.

John Calvin teaches - Unconditional election says that God chooses to save some people and to pass over others. He has a love for some people that He does not have for others.

Do you think this is what Scripture teaches?

I don't.

 

[ProDeo]

Those people in hell, are there by their own choice.

Your comment suggest that people in hell are innocent.

Not me.

John Calvin teaches - Unconditional election says that God chooses to save some people and to pass over others. He has a love for some people that He does not have for others.

That's not in Scripture.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Not me.

John Calvin teaches - Unconditional election says that God chooses to save some people and to pass over others. He has a love for some people that He does not have for others.

That's not in Scripture.

Of course it is.

Many will deny that these verses are about salvation.

But it is.

Rom 9:8 That is, the children of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are considered as seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.”
Rom 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there any unrighteousness with God? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND IN ORDER THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory—

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course it is.

Many will deny that these verses are about salvation.

But it is.

Rom 9:8 That is, the children of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are considered as seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.”
Rom 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there any unrighteousness with God? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND IN ORDER THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory—

Romans 9.
How much study does it take to discover that it's NOT about individual salvation?
In fact,,,it's not about salvation at all !

But an explanation of WHY the gentiles are being accepted into Judaism.

The question being answered by Paul:
HAS GOD FAILED IN CHOOSING THE JEWS TO WHOM TO REVEAL HIMSELF?
Romans 9:6 Which you did not post up above.

God never fails. He chose the Jews for salvation to come through them....
but they did NOT ACCEPT JESUS....so did God make a mistake?

Why not start a thread on Romans 9?
Not as easy as posting verses....
But the truth would come out.