CHURCH ELDERS MUST HOLD TO THE MYSTERY

[Doug]

[1Ti 3:8-9 KJV] 8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

In saying likewise I infer that whatever applies to deacons would apply to pastors. They both would have to hold the mystery.

[1Co 2:7 KJV] 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

The mystery is that Christ was forming the Body of Christ.
[Col 1:18 KJV] 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

That the body of Christ would reconcile the heavenly places, and the gospel of grace was not made known until revealed to Paul.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

[1Ti 3:8-9 KJV] 8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

In saying likewise I infer that whatever applies to deacons would apply to pastors. They both would have to hold the mystery.

[1Co 2:7 KJV] 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

The mystery is that Christ was forming the Body of Christ.
[Col 1:18 KJV] 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

I do not know of any pastors who do not hold to this.

 

[Doug]

I do not know of any pastors who do not hold to this.

For example a pastor that teaches that Paul's gospel is a continuation of the gospel preached by Jesus and the twelve is not aligned with the mystery
A pastor who baptizes is not following Paul who never commands baptism

Christ revealed to Paul the commandments and doctrine the church the body of Christ was to follow

 

[Ronald Nolette]

For example a pastor that teaches that Paul's gospel is a continuation of the gospel preached by Jesus and the twelve is not aligned with the mystery
A pastor who baptizes is not following Paul who never commands baptism

Christ revealed to Paul the commandments and doctrine the church the body of Christ was to follow

Baptism is an ordinance of the church. Paul baptized people, and I am sure he taught the elders whom he discipled to baptize.

Jesus commanded to go into the world and Baptize in the name of the trinity.

 

[Verily]

Decent topic, this is what I have in my notes. I know this is for bishops and deacons, and it says these are to hold to the Mystery of the faith in a pure conscience and is preceeded by some expected behaviors, in respects to godliness as I regard it, and Paul also said they are to be first proved (vs 10)

1Tim.3 Verses 2 to 10

[2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
[3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
[4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
[5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
[6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
[7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
[8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
[9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
[10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

As there is the mystery of godliness

1 Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Which is according to the faith of God's elect

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness

Which is the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness.

Godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come 1 Ti 4:8

1 Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

1 Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

1 Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

1 Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

Would seem to follow along those lines. Sure seems like a rare thing to find these qualities in those who are to overseen or are supposed to be apt to teach. Usually they fall into where the condemnation of the devil is place.

 

[Doug]

Baptism is an ordinance of the church.

[2Th 2:15 KJV] 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Ordinances and traditions are interchangeable words
Paul did not teach anywhere the ordinance of water baptism

[1Co 1:17 KJV] 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

The gospel preached by Paul did not include water baptism

[Act 2:38 KJV] 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter did command baptism to the believing remnant

 

[Doug]

Decent topic, this is what I have in my notes. I know this is for bishops and deacons, and it says these are to hold to the Mystery of the faith in a pure conscience and is preceeded by some expected behaviors, in respects to godliness as I regard it, and Paul also said they are to be first proved (vs 10)

1Tim.3 Verses 2 to 10

[2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
[3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
[4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
[5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
[6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
[7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
[8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
[9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
[10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

As there is the mystery of godliness

1 Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Which is according to the faith of God's elect

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness

Which is the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness.

Godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come 1 Ti 4:8

1 Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

1 Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

1 Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

1 Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

Would seem to follow along those lines. Sure seems like a rare thing to find these qualities in those who are to overseen or are supposed to be apt to teach. Usually they fall into where the condemnation of the devil is place.

[1Ti 6:3 KJV] 3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

I think this verse would apply to church elders wherein they would have to hold to all the doctrine as set forth by Paul who received it by Christ

 

[Doug]

Baptism is an ordinance of the church. Paul baptized people, and I am sure he taught the elders whom he discipled to baptize.

[1Co 1:14 KJV] 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

If baptism was an ordinance and necessary why would Paul not want to baptize everyone?

 

[Doug]

I am sure he taught the elders whom he discipled to baptize.

Where did Paul teach this? What verse

 

[Doug]

Jesus commanded to go into the world and Baptize in the name of the trinity.

[Mat 28:16, 18-19 KJV] 16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. ... 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Jesus commanded the disciples to baptize the nations. This will be fulfilled in the thousand year reign of Christ on earth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

For example a pastor that teaches that Paul's gospel is a continuation of the gospel preached by Jesus and the twelve is not aligned with the mystery
A pastor who baptizes is not following Paul who never commands baptism

Christ revealed to Paul the commandments and doctrine the church the body of Christ was to follow

Well iuf you are talking about teh good news preached priot to the events of Matthew 12, I agree.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

[2Th 2:15 KJV] 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Ordinances and traditions are interchangeable words
Paul did not teach anywhere the ordinance of water baptism

[1Co 1:17 KJV] 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

The gospel preached by Paul did not include water baptism

[Act 2:38 KJV] 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter did command baptism to the believing remnant

The gospel every christian preaches should not include baptism. It is merely placing trust in teh death and resurrection of Jesus for the forgiceness of sins.

But Baptism is an ordinance the church must uphold.

Matthew 28:18-20

King James Version

​

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And Paul did not Baptize many but he did Baptize

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1. 1 Corinthians 1:13
   Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
   
   I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
   
2. 1 Corinthians 1:15
   Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
3. 1 Corinthians 1:16
   And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Acts 16:

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Baptsim is not part of the gospel of salvation, but it is part and parcel of being obedient to God an faithful.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

[1Co 1:14 KJV] 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

If baptism was an ordinance and necessary why would Paul not want to baptize everyone?

I will let ytou ask Paul. Scripture doesn't say so I will not make any guesses as to why he baptized just a few as far as written.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Where did Paul teach this? What verse

Because water baptism is a command of Jesus. are you here saying Paul would directly disobey this command of Jesus?

Matthew 28:18-20

King James Version

​

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

are you going to say Paul was exempt from this command?

 

[Doug]

Well iuf you are talking about teh good news preached priot to the events of Matthew 12, I agree.

I dont understand the reference to Matthew 12 and no I was talking about pastors in this dispensation

 

[Doug]

The gospel every christian preaches should not include baptism. It is merely placing trust in teh death and resurrection of Jesus for the forgiceness of sins.

Absolutely brother
That is the number one thing to believe together

 

[Doug]

But Baptism is an ordinance the church must uphold.

[Eph 4:5 KJV] 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Paul said there is only one baptism

[1Co 12:13 KJV] 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

We are baptized by the Spirit not water

 

[Doug]

Baptsim is not part of the gospel of salvation, but it is part and parcel of being obedient to God an faithful.

Paul says this nowhere
Paul gives us what we should do
Israel baptized to be obedient not us

 

[Doug]

I will let ytou ask Paul. Scripture doesn't say so I will not make any guesses as to why he baptized just a few as far as written.

I will not say why Paul baptized some either but I was asking why Paul never said to be baptized so we would be obedient

 

[Doug]

Because water baptism is a command of Jesus. are you here saying Paul would directly disobey this command of Jesus?

Matthew 28:18-20​

​

King James Version​

​

​

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

are you going to say Paul was exempt from this command?

In verse 18 Jesus was speaking to the disciples not us
It is important to know who is being talked to
In verse 19 he said Go YEE which was said to the disciples.....they were to baptize the nations...this was put on hold as was the kingdom on earth...they will be resurrected and do this in the kingdom
Paul was not commanded to do this