We have it even before we do

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Matthias

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“We have it even before we do.” It may sound like a contradiction at first glance, but it isn’t. It’s just a timing question.

Primitive Christianity presents the idea that a person may have something which is promised by God before the person actually has it. What is promised by God is so certain that it’s only a matter of time until what is promised is literally received. Abraham, for example, was given the land by promise (Genesis 12), but he lived and died without ever receiving it (Hebrews 11). The land is his. He has it in prospect, given by a covenant promise which cannot be broken, and even death won’t prevent him from receiving it - when the Messiah returns.

It is recorded in Jesus’ prayer that he prayed not only for the disciples who followed him prior to his death, burial and resurrection in the 1st century but also for all of his disciples down through the following centuries.

”I pray not only for them [the disciples made during his three year earthly ministry in the 1st century], but also for those who believe in me [disciples made down through the following centuries] because of their message [the gospel]. I pray that they may all be one. Father! May they be in us, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they be one, so that the world will believe that you sent me. I gave them the same glory you gave me, ...”

(John 17:20-22a, TEV)

The disciples of Messiah who didn’t yet exist at the point in time when Jesus prayed for them, have already been given the same glory which God had given to him. We should think about that.

***

I was born in the 1950’s. (Readers are invited to think of the century and decade they were born in.) I’m a 21st century disciple of Jesus and I have been given the same glory, by Jesus in the 1st century, which God gave to him. I had it before I even existed, but I have it now only in prospect. I‘m looking forward to actually receiving it. I will be glorified in the future, I will literally receive what Jesus gave me nearly 2,000 years ago, when he returns.

Disciples of Jesus have glory stored up with Jesus in heaven. It is their reward, not their destination, that is in heaven. Disciples of Jesus will actually receive the glory that Jesus has with him and has long ago given them at his future parousia (second coming). They will have positions in his glorious government and manage the earth with him in the restoration of all things.
 
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quietthinker

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“We have it even before we do.” It may sound like a contradiction at first glance, but it isn’t. It’s just a timing question.

Primitive Christianity presents the idea that a person may have something which is promised by God before the person actually has it. What is promised by God is so certain that it’s only a matter of time until what is promised is literally received. Abraham, for example, was given the land by promise (Genesis 12), but he lived and died without ever receiving it (Hebrews 11). The land is his. He has it in prospect, given by a covenant promise which cannot be broken, and even death won’t prevent him from receiving it - when the Messiah returns.

It is recorded in Jesus’ prayer that he prayed not only for the disciples who followed him prior to his death, burial and resurrection in the 1st century but also for all of his disciples down through the following centuries.

”I pray not only for them [the disciples made during his three year earthly ministry in the 1st century], but also for those who believe in me [disciples made down through the following centuries] because of their message [the gospel]. I pray that they may all be one. Father! May they be in us, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they be one, so that the world will believe that you sent me. I gave them the same glory you gave me, ...”

(John 17:20-22a, TEV)

The disciples of Messiah who didn’t yet exist at the point in time when Jesus prayed for them, have already been given the same glory which God had given to him. We should think about that.

***

I was born in the 1950’s. (Readers are invited to think of the century and decade they were born in.) I’m a 21st century disciple of Jesus and I have been given the same glory, by Jesus in the 1st century, which God gave to him. I had it before I even existed, but I have it now only in prospect. I‘m looking forward to actually receiving it. I will be glorified in the future, I will literally receive what Jesus gave me nearly 2,000 years ago, when he returns.

Disciples of Jesus have glory stored up with Jesus in heaven. It is their reward, not their destination, that is in heaven. Disciples of Jesus will actually receive the glory that Jesus has with him and has long ago given them at his future parousia (second coming). They will have positions in his glorious government and manage the earth with him in the restoration of all things.
something to think about....

God's glory is his ability to solve problems without violence. Rather than being a taker, he is a giver. He gives 33 yrs to us as a human so that we can observe his nature......and draw our own conclusion.
He does not foist anything on us. He does not hold us to ransom. He gives us all things pertaining to life and love and joy. What we decide about that (sow) we also reap.
 

Matthias

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something to think about....

God's glory is his ability to solve problems without violence. Rather than being a taker, he is a giver. He gives 33 yrs to us as a human so that we can observe his nature......and draw our own conclusion.
He does not foist anything on us. He does not hold us to ransom. He gives us all things pertaining to life and love and joy. What we decide about that (sow) we also reap.

Concerning God’s glory: Do you think he shares it with human beings? Has he given his own glory to the Messiah’s disciples?
 

quietthinker

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Concerning God’s glory: Do you think he shares it with human beings? Has he given his own glory to the Messiah’s disciples?
Those who get the Character of God, the character maligned for millennia and made to appear as an extension of fallen man's desires, recognise that Jesus is its personification and desire to emulate it.

It is Satans studied intent to sideline, to distract, to misrepresent the glorious character of Jesus and thus his Father's, by any means he can muster.
 

Matthias

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Those who get the Character of God, the character maligned for millennia and made to appear as an extension of fallen man's desires, recognise that Jesus is its personification and desire to emulate it.

It is Satans studied intent to sideline, to distract, to misrepresent the glorious character of Jesus and thus his Father's, by any means he can muster.

What precisely do you mean by “personification”? I want to make sure I’m understanding you correctly. Elaborating on it will help me to do that.

How would you relate it to a passage like Isaiah 42:8?

“I am Yahweh; that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.”

I quoted the passage from LSB (which I’m presently engaged in evaluating) but please feel free to speak from any translation of your choosing.
 

quietthinker

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What precisely do you mean by “personification”? I want to make sure I’m understanding you correctly. Elaborating on it will help me to do that.
Self sacrificing. Jesus gives his LIFE for the recalcitrant. This is how God is.....self sacrificing, humble, long-suffering (meaning it never ends) It does not mean, ok, I've been patient long enough but now the hammer's coming down, idea.
How would you relate it to a passage like Isaiah 42:8?

“I am Yahweh; that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.”

I quoted the passage from LSB (which I’m presently engaged in evaluating) but please feel free to speak from any translation of your choosing.
God's glory as stated earlier is his humility, his long-suffering, his self sacrificing reality....even to death
Which man made 'deity' has ever exhibited such qualities/ characteristics?
 

Matthias

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Self sacrificing. Jesus gives his LIFE for the recalcitrant. This is how God is.....self sacrificing, humble, long-suffering (meaning it never ends) It does not mean, ok, I've been patient long enough but now the hammer's coming down, idea.

God's glory as stated earlier is his humility, his long-suffering, his self sacrificing reality....even to death
Which man made 'deity' has ever exhibited such qualities/ characteristics?

God himself is immortal and cannot die. Are you saying that Jesus, the Son of God, is the embodiment of the character of God?
 

quietthinker

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God's government in a sense is a democracy. Its citizens vote for who will rule them.
Satan set himself up in opposition and managed to persuade a goodly number of angels to his way of seeing and who they preferred as their ruler (1/3?). God did not snuff them out.

What if Satan had persuaded all of the angels and the citizens of unfallen Worlds? What would have happened?
This question is out there. Would God have been a dictator and withdrawn their lives to save his own skin?
Jesus reveals in his sojourn here on Earth how God responds to those who reject him.

As it was, a large portion of angels succumbed to Satan's sophistry as well as the inhabitants of God's newest creation, Earth......and God set in motion activity to demonstrate and reveal both the Hearts (core) of himself and his adversary in a way that gobsmacked all Creation. Jesus is this Revelation.

Herein is God's glory an open book/ door for all who desire to see.

Revelation 3:8
'See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name'. (name = character)
 
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Matthias

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“And you will swiftly be banished from the goodly land which HASHEM gives you.”

(Deuteronomy 11:17)

Which HASHEM gives you. I.e., will give you. [Although the land had not yet been given to Israel, Moses uses the present tense, gives, because God’s assurance to do something is no less real than a historical fact.]

(Meir Zlotowitz, Shema Yisrael, p. 37)