Freed : From Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Pont.

[GodsGrace]

Well you said your post 268 was an exegetical post. It was not it was almost pure eisegesis.

And I do not hold to reformed theology. ON the contrary I am a dispensationalist who is a literalist which is th eopposite of reformed theology.

I don't do eisegesis.

I don't know what a dispensationalist is and I don't care to know.

You make statements that put you in the reformed/calvinist camp.

If you're not calvinist, then please explain to me WHY we're having this conversation?

WHY do you even bring up Romans 9 which is the mantra of the Calvinist?
Even if incorrectly so.

 

[Mjh29]

Do my posts not seem friendly to you?
Don't they sound like a conversation?

You want me to be willing to see things your way?
I've been studying Calvinism for more than 10 years...even BEFORE there was YouTube.

So I know the Calvinist perspective very well.

I'm not tearing anyone down....I'm tearing down reformed theology which did not exist in the Christian church until a few hundred years ago.

You could even use a Confession if you like.
Or you could use Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion.

The fact that I do NOT agree with any teaching of Calvinism does not mean that I don't understand it or that I cannot discuss it.

I'll tell you what I respect about you:
You said that tearing persons down would shame the belief system you adhere to.
This is very nice to hear....know why?
Most Calvinists I've come in contact with over the past almost 10 years on forums are not very nice persons.
They insult and demean and are rather angry persons.
It happens right here on this forum.
I don't know why this is....I have an opinion but I don't care for opinions so I'll keep it to myself.

Whatever you wish.
I also pray you have a good day/evening.

In all honesty, though I would have a different view on some things that I have read, I did not find them to be unfriendly, no! All I was meaning was that, first and foremost, we should walk as Christ walked - while I am willing to discuss things, I will say that if I feel I am causing any grief or stress, that you would excuse my for simply ending the conversation.
While I believe that my viewpoints are as the Scriptures teach, and that there are major dangers that come with wrong interpretation, I still believe that people who hold opposing views to mine can still be Christians; so I do not wish to sew discord rather than peace. With all that said, my replies may be a bit late or take a bit of time; perhaps we could go through one question or comment you have at a time, and have a good exchange of thoughts!
Thank you in advance!

 

[Mjh29]

In all honesty, though I would have a different view on some things that I have read, I did not find them to be unfriendly, no! All I was meaning was that, first and foremost, we should walk as Christ walked - while I am willing to discuss things, I will say that if I feel I am causing any grief or stress, that you would excuse my for simply ending the conversation.
While I believe that my viewpoints are as the Scriptures teach, and that there are major dangers that come with wrong interpretation, I still believe that people who hold opposing views to mine can still be Christians; so I do not wish to sew discord rather than peace. With all that said, my replies may be a bit late or take a bit of time; perhaps we could go through one question or comment you have at a time, and have a good exchange of thoughts!
Thank you in advance!

In addition to this, I would like to address a few things that you mentioned
1.) I thank you for the kind words! In all honesty, I was one who used to be very passionate in the sense that I am sure I have come across as hostile or rude - it took me some growing up spiritually to realize that, first and foremost, I am to imitate Christ and His attitudes, and to as much as possible live peaceably with all people. I do believe that it severely dampens the truth, even if it IS true, to be presented in a hostile or "combative" manner.
2.) While I do love the Confessions, my love for them comes from the fact that I believe that are Biblical. Additionally, I've only read about a quarter of the Institutes personally, so I wouldn't want to quote anything from them out of pocket; I believe what I do because of the Scriptures; the Scriptures take the spot over Calvin, not Calvin over the Scriptures; I am sure there are things that he believed that I would not adhere to personally - so I will make sure to keep my use of the Confessions if at all AFTER the Scriptures. Any confession only caries weight so long as it is in line with the Word.
Thank you again!

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Reader,

Lets look deeper now., into this "Doctrine of Devils" that started with Calvin, and was evolved into Hyper-Calvinism (TULIP) "the 5 points".

A "TULIP"> a hyper calvinist, a "5-point">.. is one who believes in Calvinism = extremism .

So, both the Calvinist and the Hyper, have been led to believe that Paul the Apostle is a Calvinist. a 5 Point Hyper Calvinist.
And that is what they TEACH and BELIEVE.

So, lets look at that, and then i'll show you one more, in the next post..

First, lets understand why a person goes to hell and not to heaven..
Its simply because they "died in their sin, never forgiven", and were never born again. So, they died separated from God, by their Sin..
So, that situation, does not allow you to go to Heaven, because you were not forgiven all your sin.... born 'In Christ" as "one with God", before you died.
This is why Jesus told us.....>"YOU, MUST, be born again", and if you are not you are not a Son/Daughter of God when you died, and so your eternity is spent, where those who are not born again Sons/Daughters of God, end up... and that is not in Heaven......
There is only one other option. : HELL.

Now, Calvin and the Hyper-Calvinist, teach that Paul is a 5-point Hyper Calvinist, as they teach that a few verses that Paul wrote, that they SEE as meaning what Calvin teaches and others who evolved Calvins theology in Hyper-Calvinism.., proves that Paul is a Calvinist, and a Hyper Calvinist.
They believe that a few of Paul's verses teach the 5-points of Hyper- Calvinism as well as Calvinism.

So, listen now.... as you have to see this... in your understanding.

If Paul is a Calvinist, then Jesus is a Calvinist....... as Paul RECEIVED all His Theology "not from any man, but from the LORD", Himself.
So, If Paul is a Calvinist, then Jesus is a Calvinist., according to Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism that is "the 5 Points"..(TULIP).

Therefore, if Paul and The Lord Jesus The Christ are both Calvinists, then they will understand "pre-destined" to believe."
They will understand "pre-chosen" to believe"
They will understand "God causes you to believe or you can't".
And they will teach that always.

Now, lets look at some Verses..

1.) "their remainth no more sacrifice for your sin" because you have "willfully sinned", the sin of UNBELIEF... "just as your Father's did".

So, those verses are Hebrews 6 & 10.. .and this one..

“'"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You ALWAYS RESIST the HOLY Spirit.!""""

So, Hyper Calvinism, teaches that this isn't possible, as you have no free will..
Yet if the Forum member can read, you Just read PAUL tell Christ rejectors, that "THEY...ALWAYS resist the Holy Spirit."
This means that Paul is one confused Calvinist, Hyper Calvinist, or that Calvinism and the "5-points" (TULIP) is a "doctrine of Devils"., as Paul just blamed them for their "resisting the Holy Spirit" that the '5-points" of Hyper Calvinism, says isn't possible.

Now when you read that "you always RESIST THE HOLY SPIRIT", then that is "you are resisting the Truth, that is the Gospel being revealed to you".., and that is also Hebrews 10".. ."If you willfully sin"...(will not believe in Jesus, willfully) there remainth no more JESUS FOR YOU... "there remaineth no more SACRIFICE for your SIN." because of your Willful decision to reject the Sacrifice who is JESUS ON THE CROSS.

So, then If Paul is the "5-point" Hyper Calvinist, who teaches that "you can't choose Christ unless you are caused to believe by the HS"............. then Paul just lied when He taught us that = THEY Resisted the Holy Spirit = Willfully........as does every Christ Rejector.

Notice that Paul didnt say..>>"well, dont worry about it, because you were just not chosen to believe".

Look now at Acts 28:28... as this is actually Hebrews 10... in the Book of the "ACTS of the Apostles."
Paul said to UNBELIEVING JEWS........>>"I will take the Gospel to the Gentiles, and they will Believe it".
So, if these JEWS were "pre-chosen" to not be the "5-Point, Hyper-Calvin" "chosen to believe" .. then you notice that Paul didnt say... "no worries, you can't believe because you are not of the chosen to believe"..

Reader, why did Paul forget all his Hyper-Calvinism, and "TULIP"< "5-points" in these Verses?

A.) Its because Paul is not a Calvinst.. Paul is not a "5-Point " TULIP... = Deceiver.

I have read this thread and your many replies to the Doctrines of Grace.

Your rant has proven nothing and is based on your own opinions.

Those who claim to understand the Doctrines of Grace are really ignorant of what they teach. I have seen this time and time again.

Reformed/Calvinists are accused of being hostile, haters and making God a moral monster.

You have accused many of Hyper Calvinistic Theology in this thread without even knowing what they believe, have failed to show the distinction between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. or the 5 points vs. the 7 points.

I will do you a solid and show the difference.

Calvinism 5 Points (TULIP)​

1. Total Depravity: Humanity is utterly sinful and unable to choose God on their own.
2. Unconditional Election: God chooses those whom He will save, without regard to human works or merit.
3. Limited Atonement: Jesus’ death atones for the sins of the elect, but not for all humanity.
4. Irresistible Grace: The saving grace of God is effectually applied to the elect, overcoming their resistance to the gospel.
5. Perseverance of the Saints: Those whom God has called will continue in faith until the end, despite apparent falls or backsliding.

Hyper-Calvinism 7 Points​

Hyper-Calvinism adds two additional points to the traditional Calvinist 5 Points (TULIP):

1. Double Predestination: God actively destines some to salvation and others to damnation, with no middle ground.
2. No Universal Call to Salvation: The gospel is not a universal call to all people to repent and believe, but rather a specific call to the elect alone.

Key differences between Calvinism 5 Points and Hyper-Calvinism 7 Points:

• Hyper-Calvinism emphasizes double predestination, implying a more deterministic and fatalistic view of salvation and damnation.
• Hyper-Calvinism rejects the idea of a universal call to salvation, whereas Calvinism 5 Points does not explicitly deny this.
• Hyper-Calvinism’s emphasis on the secret will of God (predestination) can lead to a diminished sense of human responsibility and a lack of urgency in evangelism.

In contrast, Calvinism 5 Points (TULIP) maintains a balance between God’s sovereignty and human responsibility, emphasizing the universal availability of salvation through the gospel while also affirming God’s electing grace.

Note: The distinction between Calvinism 5 Points and Hyper-Calvinism 7 Points is not universally agreed upon, and some scholars argue that Hyper-Calvinism is a misnomer or an exaggeration of Calvinist doctrine. However, the above summary reflects a common understanding of the differences between these two theological positions.

There is also a more extreme Hyper Calvinist in the 10 points, which I will not get into.

There are also so-called Calvinists that believe the Lord is the author of sin.

In my experience, all the Reformed, Calvinists or whatever label you give them are strict 5 pointers.

The Doctrines of Grace do nothing but give Our lord all Glory and Sovereignty in everything pertaining to Soteriology and beyond.

The reformed/Calvinist, does not share in sovereignty with God pertaining to grace and salvation.

Many would do well to Study...
Theology Proper, Soteriology and Hamartiology. (your sources will vary)

I would emphasize studying the Sovereignty and Providence of God.

As with all "Christian" forums, many will tell you that everything outside of the Bible is man-made doctrines and should not be studied They say we just need Holy Spirit and the Bible.

OP, it is clear to me that you have an axe to grind.

Please take one point at a time to discuss the Doctrines of Grace, or Calvinism as it is commonly called.

Start with the T in TULIP, if you understand what it is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yet Paul never told anyone that they were too depraved to be able to trust in Christ.

Yes he did. Rom. 3

Everyone can Trust in Christ.......but not all will do it.

Can is the key word. Jesus made all men savable, but did not choose all as Scripture clearly teaches.

Jesus said.....>>>"You REFUSE to come".... and that is their Free Will.

Nope. they cannot come because as Jesus said, they were not drawn by the Father. that is the bible

Jesus said """"""If i be lifted up (on the Cross) i will Draw ALL""".........but not all will come, because that is their FREE WILL.

Prove it. People do not come to Jesus because Jesus draws them, but because the Father draws them. You do know th edifference between the Father and son?

Noone is "too depraved to believe" as that is John Calvin's Garbage Theology..

2 Exceptions.. it can be that a person is so cult violated from an early age, that they are past being able to be led of the Spirit of God.

Many Muslims are like this...

Another exception is... when a person has become "inner hardened" to the call of God, .. because they have resisted it for too long, and now they can't be moved by the Holy Spirit, any longer.

YOu need to reread Romans 3 and 1 Cor. 2 again and learn what God says instead of what Behold says.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your verse is very specific, and does not say they were initially chosen to become a Believer.

So, the "WE" in your verse are the Christians......and they Chose to BELIEVE in Christ.....= Free Will

YOu must be a master at the game twister as you love to twist the word of God.

The Christians as this verse clearly and explicitly says were chosen by god, they did not choose themselves. Once again your lack of basic grammar learning is showing.

This "Adoption" predestination is based on becoming "IN CHRIST".. first..

So, the Adoption, the Conforming. (Predestination) . is AFTER you are in Christ....as that is what is pre-destined.........not the becoming a Christian.. as that is based on the person giving God THEIR Faith, in Christ.

Once again you twist the word of God because you cannot even read with a basic knowledge of grammar. If by in Christ you mean we were in Christ before the world began, I will agree, otherwise anything else is unbiblical

We are Not chosen to believe, but to be "conformed" and to be "adopted"..is what is predestined... as that happens after you are "in Christ".

Sorry but you can't be chosen before the foundation of the world and wait until you are in Christ!

Romans 8:8 clearly shows the unsaved man cannot believe to salvation, just as 1 Cor. 2 does, rom. 3 does.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

True.

All believers have Christ in them, and they are "in Christ".. and that is eternal.

Wow you agree with me?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your Gospel is False, as Paul defined Calvinism as : Galatians 1:8

False Gospel.

Wow! You now can't even tell the difference between a doctrine and the gospel that saves! what a sad sack.

John 3:16 says where, and why and how and when, someone gets Saved.

A.) When they give God their Faith, is when, is why, is how..........and where.

Once again you rinability to understand primary grammar causes you to spew false statements about bible verses.

What i DENY< is.. .when someone who can't speak or read K.Greek, on a fluency level.. comes to this Forum, or any Christian Forum, and tries to FAKE the ROLE of a Teacher of Greek Manuscripts.
As that is FAKE, FALSE... PRETENSION, that insults the Holy Spirit.

Have teh last word if you wish. I have tired of you being such a grand liar and intentional false witness of the brethren.

YOu are smug, arrogant, condescending, empty souled ,vile, venomous. and a prolific liar. any who follow your teachings are fools for being duped by you. YOu are the first and proobably only person I have ever called out for their evil heart that you have

Have the last word

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not understanding.

I know 100% that I am Born Again and was chosen by God..the Holy Spirit gave birth to my spirit, he penetrated my spirit and it was reborn ,his seed remains in my spirit, permanently.

The seed is the Living Holy Spirit, that’s whose seed remains in our spirit.
The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God, he witness that truth to my spirit all day every day..

He testifies with my spirit that my salvation is 100 % secure.,.his Spirit is also Alive and Active in me...I’m under the authority of the Spirit and in Gods will.

He speaks Gods truth out through me..the Holy Spirit that is.

And what at all does this have to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is the problem here RN.....
Calvinism teaches, and you agree of course, that man is totally deprived and unable to seek God.

No that is what the
bible teaches.

Prove me wrong in these verses:

Last time I looke3d- none means none.

Paul also confirms this twice more:

Romans 8:8

King James Version

​

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Corinthians 2:14

King James Version

​

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Gods Word as written, is against your hypothesis.

I'm very sorry about this RN and I apologize if I've caused you any additional stress.
May our Lord keep you and bless you - as I'm sure He has.

I am as cool as a cucumber.

Where does it state that we do this AFTER salvation? Could you post a couple that state this?

I never said this so this is asinine

The point is that we are ABLE to seek God.

In light of the verses I have posted, show from SCripture an unsaved man can seek and find god of their own fallen nature.

The WHAT is as wrong as wrong could be.

Says you and you have given eisgesis (personal opinion) as to why, but have failed to provide Scripture.

But WHY would ANY book have to be written IF Calvinism is correct?
IF God is going to just predestinate EVERYTHING,,,,,won't everything happen just as God wants anyway?

IF it's God that predestinates everything,,,,HE will determine whether or not we live a godly life.

As I did not ever sy this, this is just a straw man of you making and foolishly wrong. It seems you are arguing against a caricature and not against me as a person.

​

If you believe the 5 points of Calvinism are biblical
THEN
you are a calvinist.

Can you show me the authoratative and empirical judgment that says if you believe in just 5 points of JOhn Calvins enormous amount of teaching you are a full Calvinist?

Or are you bloviating here.

If you think my post no. 268 was eisegesis,,,,then I suggest you NEVER bring up Romans 9 again because you and every other calvinist are unable to deal with it once its true meaning is exposed.

Your post 268 was eisegesis ( I suspect you do not know the difference between that and exegesis), and I will use romans 9 as often as I feel led by god. But then you are probably like Behold and believe I am not led of God.

It gets tiring to have to explain YOUR verses all the time to show you HOW they're wrong
when
YOU
never explain to me why you think MY verses are wrong.

And this is why you are wrong! You hold to an allegorical interpretation. You proved that when you simply hurled you ropinion of Romans 9. You also have done that with all the "scholars" you pasted here. teh key words of all them is "interpretation".

this is just a fancy way of saying, I know what the bible says, but this is what it really means."

I am not impressed by your posting all sorts of supposed authorities. I can do the same, but I won't. For that is simply appeal to authorities and Mine disagree with yours.

I've already explained this before and will not do so again.
It can be easily studied....if one so wished.

The first is a complete explanation as accepted by theologians.
The second is a quick reply.

So you are sayhing that to disagree with your religious folk makes on not a theologian.

I have studied it over and over and over again. And not from a bunch of experts, though I have read the arguments from both sides.

but if one merely looks at teh Scripture, go to the original languages and see what was written and how it was written, it smashes you rarminiast belief quite easy.

See I was abeliever in Jacob Arminius' five points for many years, until I learned some greek and learned how to use the language tools. And before you answer with a moronic type behold answer, a junior high person can use the language tools available to us..

John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5

Once again, I accept the five points that are called the five points of Calvin (as opposed to the five points of Jacob Arminius which is you r theology).

The rest of His theology found in teh Institutes of the christian Religion I know what what is there so I do not know if I agree with any other doctrine he teaches.

I am not reformed, I am not a Calvinist.

I am a Southern Baptist who is a pre-mil, pretrib, dispensationalist, who believes that the literal, historical, grammatical understanding of Scripturee is the correct way to rightly divide the Word. I believe the five points are right because they are supported explicitly and as written without interpretation in scripture.

I have posted whatr I see the five points as and the biblical defense for them. I am still waiting for you to show from Scripture why the five points are in error.

so far it has been more oa philosophical argument on you rpart and an allegorical argument where what is written is not what is really meant. I say iot that way for that is what is meant by all your so called experts

And once again, all your supposed experts fail to address Pauls final statement on this topic which destroys all their fancy allegorical personl interpretations.

Romans 9:24

King James Version

​

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And sorry but foreknowledge (pro-gnosis) is preplanning. I dare yopiu to look up some Greek language guides. There are literally dozens online (blu eletter bible and bible hub) are my favorites.

Then also look up Romans 9 and th e Word "fitted" and see what in theo original writing was meant.

I will tell you. It is the active voice and means that those vessels fitted for destruction were made fit for destruction. and keeping it in context- it is god who does the fitting for destruction.

May be you cannot accept the fact that every human being is born spiritually dead as Ephesians 2 says and that all are eternally damned by nature! If God did not spare some, none would be saved!

And you still haven't answered the verses I posted showing an unsaved person cannot and does not want to choose god.



.

 

[GodsGrace]

In all honesty, though I would have a different view on some things that I have read, I did not find them to be unfriendly, no! All I was meaning was that, first and foremost, we should walk as Christ walked - while I am willing to discuss things, I will say that if I feel I am causing any grief or stress, that you would excuse my for simply ending the conversation.

Absolutely. I have ended conversations many times because the matter was becoming argumentative.

While I believe that my viewpoints are as the Scriptures teach, and that there are major dangers that come with wrong interpretation, I still believe that people who hold opposing views to mine can still be Christians; so I do not wish to sew discord rather than peace. With all that said, my replies may be a bit late or take a bit of time; perhaps we could go through one question or comment you have at a time, and have a good exchange of thoughts!
Thank you in advance!

Sounds good to me.
You have another post....

 

[GodsGrace]

No that is what the
bible teaches.

Prove me wrong in these verses:

Last time I looke3d- none means none.

Paul also confirms this twice more:

Romans 8:8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Corinthians 2:14​

​

King James Version​

​

​

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Gods Word as written, is against your hypothesis.

I am as cool as a cucumber.

I never said this so this is asinine

In light of the verses I have posted, show from SCripture an unsaved man can seek and find god of their own fallen nature.

Says you and you have given eisgesis (personal opinion) as to why, but have failed to provide Scripture.

As I did not ever sy this, this is just a straw man of you making and foolishly wrong. It seems you are arguing against a caricature and not against me as a person.

​

Can you show me the authoratative and empirical judgment that says if you believe in just 5 points of JOhn Calvins enormous amount of teaching you are a full Calvinist?

Or are you bloviating here.

Your post 268 was eisegesis ( I suspect you do not know the difference between that and exegesis), and I will use romans 9 as often as I feel led by god. But then you are probably like Behold and believe I am not led of God.

And this is why you are wrong! You hold to an allegorical interpretation. You proved that when you simply hurled you ropinion of Romans 9. You also have done that with all the "scholars" you pasted here. teh key words of all them is "interpretation".

this is just a fancy way of saying, I know what the bible says, but this is what it really means."

I am not impressed by your posting all sorts of supposed authorities. I can do the same, but I won't. For that is simply appeal to authorities and Mine disagree with yours.

So you are sayhing that to disagree with your religious folk makes on not a theologian.

I have studied it over and over and over again. And not from a bunch of experts, though I have read the arguments from both sides.

but if one merely looks at teh Scripture, go to the original languages and see what was written and how it was written, it smashes you rarminiast belief quite easy.

See I was abeliever in Jacob Arminius' five points for many years, until I learned some greek and learned how to use the language tools. And before you answer with a moronic type behold answer, a junior high person can use the language tools available to us..

Once again, I accept the five points that are called the five points of Calvin (as opposed to the five points of Jacob Arminius which is you r theology).

The rest of His theology found in teh Institutes of the christian Religion I know what what is there so I do not know if I agree with any other doctrine he teaches.

I am not reformed, I am not a Calvinist.

I am a Southern Baptist who is a pre-mil, pretrib, dispensationalist, who believes that the literal, historical, grammatical understanding of Scripturee is the correct way to rightly divide the Word. I believe the five points are right because they are supported explicitly and as written without interpretation in scripture.

I have posted whatr I see the five points as and the biblical defense for them. I am still waiting for you to show from Scripture why the five points are in error.

so far it has been more oa philosophical argument on you rpart and an allegorical argument where what is written is not what is really meant. I say iot that way for that is what is meant by all your so called experts

And once again, all your supposed experts fail to address Pauls final statement on this topic which destroys all their fancy allegorical personl interpretations.

Romans 9:24​

​

King James Version​

​

​

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And sorry but foreknowledge (pro-gnosis) is preplanning. I dare yopiu to look up some Greek language guides. There are literally dozens online (blu eletter bible and bible hub) are my favorites.

Then also look up Romans 9 and th e Word "fitted" and see what in theo original writing was meant.

I will tell you. It is the active voice and means that those vessels fitted for destruction were made fit for destruction. and keeping it in context- it is god who does the fitting for destruction.

May be you cannot accept the fact that every human being is born spiritually dead as Ephesians 2 says and that all are eternally damned by nature! If God did not spare some, none would be saved!

And you still haven't answered the verses I posted showing an unsaved person cannot and does not want to choose god.



.

RN

My conversation with you is over.

You are an angry and uncivil person and all you do is repeat the same verses over and over without ever responding to mine.
You demean persons and insult them.

About 80% of the reformed/calvinists I've posted to are like this.
There is no further reason to post to you.
I've posted enough information for those reading along in case they're interested in learning about unheretical Christianity.
Yes. Learn what heretical means.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I don't do eisegesis.

Keep telling your self that.

You are an angry and uncivil person and all you do is repeat the same verses over and over without ever responding to mine.
You demean persons and insult them.

I have yet to get angry once. You just cannot handle one who speaks as it is. I have not thrown ad-hominems as you have nor create straw men of you and attack them as you have. I am just blunt and that can be very offensive to Armeiniasts.

You have posted eidetic opinions on verses

About 80% of the reformed/calvinists I've posted to are like this.

And here is your problem, I am neither reformed nor Calvinist I have repeated that ad- nauseum and you are unwilling to accept what I say about me as true. You are hung up on your caricature of me.

But as this is our last replies let me make crystal clear what I believe based on Scripture.

As I osted the many verses that sahow unsaved man is spiritually dead and incapable of pleasing god and are enslaved to sin, yes unsaved man has no free will to choose God of their own nature (which is defined as a nature of wrath)

However once a person gets saved, they are made spiritually alive, born from above, filled with the Spirit. and being conformed to teh image of Jesus.

Saved people have had free will restored to them! Because only saved people can do works that please God. Remember from Isaiah, that an unsaved person good works are filthy rags to God and Paul said anything done outside of faith is sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

In addition to this, I would like to address a few things that you mentioned
1.) I thank you for the kind words! In all honesty, I was one who used to be very passionate in the sense that I am sure I have come across as hostile or rude - it took me some growing up spiritually to realize that, first and foremost, I am to imitate Christ and His attitudes, and to as much as possible live peaceably with all people. I do believe that it severely dampens the truth, even if it IS true, to be presented in a hostile or "combative" manner.

Agreed.

2.) While I do love the Confessions, my love for them comes from the fact that I believe that are Biblical.

Confessions will always have scripture listed at the end of each paragraph.
When I say that something is not biblical, I don't mean that the verse cannot be found in the bible.
What I mean is that the way reformed understand the verses is totally different than the way all of the other denominations do.

This is basically how I feel about Calvinism:
1. It's a denomination that stands alone. This is only important because it's a clear sign that all other theological knowledge does not agree with reformed theology.
2. Calvinists post verses and will add to them to make them fit their belief system.
3. Reformed theology changes the nature of God.
4. Reformed theology causes many conflicts in scripture....this will be made clear by me within our discussion.

Additionally, I've only read about a quarter of the Institutes personally, so I wouldn't want to quote anything from them out of pocket; I believe what I do because of the Scriptures; the Scriptures take the spot over Calvin, not Calvin over the Scriptures; I am sure there are things that he believed that I would not adhere to personally - so I will make sure to keep my use of the Confessions if at all AFTER the Scriptures. Any confession only caries weight so long as it is in line with the Word.
Thank you again!

Agreed.
I usually refer to Calvin's writings when I'm told I'm wrong about something I believe about Calvinism.
Other than that, there's no real reason to refer to them at all, and I'm sure you noticed that I really don't make a habit of this.
Also, I'd like to say that I don't go on for pages and pages...once I've made my point...I'm pretty much done.

So, let's start from the beginning. We'll use the 5 points.
T TOTAL DEPRAVITY Man is so totally depraved that he unable to seek God and thus it's up to God to pull whom He chooses up from the pit into salvation. And this is based on nothing except God's will. Man does not participate = monergism.

I'll post verses showing that God requires us to seek Him, asks us to seek Him, wants us to seek Him.....

Revelation 3:20
20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

There are many more but this should suffice.
How do you interpret the above?

What verses state we are not able to seek God?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

RN

My conversation with you is over.

You are an angry and uncivil person and all you do is repeat the same verses over and over without ever responding to mine.
You demean persons and insult them.

About 80% of the reformed/calvinists I've posted to are like this.
There is no further reason to post to you.
I've posted enough information for those reading along in case they're interested in learning about unheretical Christianity.
Yes. Learn what heretical means.

Are men totally depraved? Is every faculty of the person corrupted?​

Heart/Mind (Deceitful)​

• Jeremiah 17:9 - “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
• Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
• Ecclesiastes 9:3 - Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
• Romans 1:28-31 - And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were… foolish
• Ephesians 4:17-18 - you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
• Jeremiah 10:7-8,14 - among all the wise ones of the nations and in all their kingdoms there is none like you. They are both stupid and foolish… Every man is stupid and without knowledge
• Matthew 15:19 - “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.” (c.f. Mark 7:21-23)
• Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from his youth.
• Proverbs 10:20 - the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
• Proverbs 28:26 - Whoever trusts in his own [heart] is a fool

c.f. Deuteronomy 29:2-4; Psalm 10:4, 36:1-2, 58:4-5, 94:11; Proverbs 10:20; Ecclesiastes 8:11; Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26; Matthew 13:14; Mark 7:21-23; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 4:17-18, 23

 

[GodsGrace]

Are men totally depraved? Is every faculty of the person corrupted?​

Heart/Mind (Deceitful)​

• Jeremiah 17:9 - “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
• Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
• Ecclesiastes 9:3 - Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
• Romans 1:28-31 - And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were… foolish
• Ephesians 4:17-18 - you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
• Jeremiah 10:7-8,14 - among all the wise ones of the nations and in all their kingdoms there is none like you. They are both stupid and foolish… Every man is stupid and without knowledge
• Matthew 15:19 - “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.” (c.f. Mark 7:21-23)
• Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from his youth.
• Proverbs 10:20 - the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
• Proverbs 28:26 - Whoever trusts in his own [heart] is a fool

c.f. Deuteronomy 29:2-4; Psalm 10:4, 36:1-2, 58:4-5, 94:11; Proverbs 10:20; Ecclesiastes 8:11; Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26; Matthew 13:14; Mark 7:21-23; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 4:17-18, 23

Hey Elected
Whatcha doin' here?
Must get boring in those safe zones??

All of the above could be explained away easily.....no problem.

We all know that man is born lost and is tainted with the sin nature.

BUT

Where, in your above posts,,,does it state that man is so depraved as to be unable to seek after God?

THIS is the question at hand.

Totally depraved means that man is unable to seek God.
I have many more verses that teach that man is to seek God....
HOW do YOU understand them?

I don't care to play verse ping pong.
I'm trying to understand HOW anyone could misread what the bible clearly teaches.

If you want to...pick one or two of your above verses and we'll discuss.

 

[Mjh29]

Agreed.

Confessions will always have scripture listed at the end of each paragraph.
When I say that something is not biblical, I don't mean that the verse cannot be found in the bible.
What I mean is that the way reformed understand the verses is totally different than the way all of the other denominations do.

This is basically how I feel about Calvinism:
1. It's a denomination that stands alone. This is only important because it's a clear sign that all other theological knowledge does not agree with reformed theology.
2. Calvinists post verses and will add to them to make them fit their belief system.
3. Reformed theology changes the nature of God.
4. Reformed theology causes many conflicts in scripture....this will be made clear by me within our discussion.


Agreed.
I usually refer to Calvin's writings when I'm told I'm wrong about something I believe about Calvinism.
Other than that, there's no real reason to refer to them at all, and I'm sure you noticed that I really don't make a habit of this.
Also, I'd like to say that I don't go on for pages and pages...once I've made my point...I'm pretty much done.

So, let's start from the beginning. We'll use the 5 points.
T TOTAL DEPRAVITY Man is so totally depraved that he unable to seek God and thus it's up to God to pull whom He chooses up from the pit into salvation. And this is based on nothing except God's will. Man does not participate = monergism.

I'll post verses showing that God requires us to seek Him, asks us to seek Him, wants us to seek Him.....

Revelation 3:20
20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

There are many more but this should suffice.
How do you interpret the above?

What verses state we are not able to seek God?

I will respond to this as soon as I am able, I promise! It might take me a moment, but I will get to it I promise! Thank you for explaining your viewpoint, and the things about Reformed Theology you might disagree with! I appreciate the courteous discussion friend!

Hoping you have a blessed day!

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Hey Elected
Whatcha doin' here?
Must get boring in those safe zones??

All of the above could be explained away easily.....no problem.

We all know that man is born lost and is tainted with the sin nature.

BUT

Where, in your above posts,,,does it state that man is so depraved as to be unable to seek after God?

THIS is the question at hand.

Totally depraved means that man is unable to seek God.
I have many more verses that teach that man is to seek God....
HOW do YOU understand them?

I don't care to play verse ping pong.
I'm trying to understand HOW anyone could misread what the bible clearly teaches.

If you want to...pick one or two of your above verses and we'll discuss.

GG, I am on many forums.

Na, never bored.

If it were my choice, it would not be a safe zone, but I suppose the safe zone is protecting the easily offended who do not understand the Bible.

Indeed, you can show verses that "suggest" man is to seek God.

However, we should look at some of the verses provided that says man is unable to seek God, because man is depraved.

We all know that man is born lost and is tainted with the sin nature.

So, how can man choose God?

I don't care to play verse ping pong.
I'm trying to understand HOW anyone could misread what the bible clearly teaches.

We take the doctrines systematically, no?

Those who believe man can choose God in his sin ignore the verses that say man cannot choose God.

Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

How do you reconcile the above verse, with verses that say men can seek God.

Basically it comes down to this.

You believe....

Free Will or Human Ability
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution

That makes you an Arminian, although, you do not claim to be one.

I believe....
Total Inability or Total Depravity

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not--indeed he cannot--choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ--it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation--it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

Even though I do not claim to be a Calvinist.

How does one reconcile Totally being depraved and "Free will" or Human Ability?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

GG, I am on many forums.

Na, never bored.

If it were my choice, it would not be a safe zone, but I suppose the safe zone is protecting the easily offended who do not understand the Bible.

Indeed, you can show verses that "suggest" man is to seek God.

However, we should look at some of the verses provided that says man is unable to seek God, because man is depraved.


So, how can man choose God?


We take the doctrines systematically, no?

Those who believe man can choose God in his sin ignore the verses that say man cannot choose God.

Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

How do you reconcile the above verse, with verses that say men can seek God.

Basically it comes down to this.

You believe....

That makes you an Arminian, although, you do not claim to be one.

I believe....
Total Inability or Total Depravity

Even though I do not claim to be a Calvinist.

How does one reconcile Totally being depraved and "Free will" or Human Ability?

Grace and peace to you.

It's really later here and this will have to wait till tomorrow morning.
Just 2 quick points:
1. I don't know Arminius or what he taught so it's not right to define a person with a title they don't even understand.
I do know that he used to be reformed, but that's all I know.

2. If you agree with the 5 points...HOW could you not be reformed/calvinist?

It's obvious that I think YOU don't understand a verse and you think I don't understand the very same verse.
But the bible is not a verse.....however, yes, it's the HOW one understands verses that interests me. But the convo never seems to get too far.

Anyway, I like to discuss and will do so as long as it doesn't become argumentative.
'night.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

It's really later here and this will have to wait till tomorrow morning.
Just 2 quick points:
1. I don't know Arminius or what he taught so it's not right to define a person with a title they don't even understand.
I do know that he used to be reformed, but that's all I know.

2. If you agree with the 5 points...HOW could you not be reformed/calvinist?

It's obvious that I think YOU don't understand a verse and you think I don't understand the very same verse.
But the bible is not a verse.....however, yes, it's the HOW one understands verses that interests me. But the convo never seems to get too far.

Anyway, I like to discuss and will do so as long as it doesn't become argumentative.
'night.

I agree there will be no resolve but disagreement.

We both partake in these conversations for a reason.

That is God's will.

Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, But Yahweh directs his steps.