Sinless perfection is easy

[quietthinker]

Ignore him @Taken

J.

....and interestingly, the religious conservative hangs his ideas and thoughts on a book full of metaphors yet when modern ones are used in the rough and tumble of life, they can't handle it.

 

[KUWN]

What does that mean?

When we sin, we are no longer in fellowship. This principle is taught throughout the NT. For example, see the Lord's words in GJohn 15.4, 5, which reads:
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

How do you get there?

By confession of known sins, 1 Jn 1.9. Some think this a license to sin, but in reality, it is a license to serve.

How does that stop us from sinning in thought, word, and deed? How does that change our self-centered, self-righteous, self-indulgent, and self-deceiving nature?

When we confess our known sins, we are back in fellowship with Christ, and being in fellowship now, we can be filled with the Holy Spirit, and bear much fruit. The Holy Spirit controls us while we are in fellowship, and in order to sin again, you have to be out of fellowship, this grieves the HS when we sin. The solution is to confess your known sins, and you are back in fellowship with Christ, and because you are in fellowship, controlled by the HS, you will not want to sin, but inevitably you will.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away (out of fellowship) by their own evil desire and enticed.
15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

 

[Lambano]

When we sin, we are no longer in fellowship.

When we confess our known sins, we are back in fellowship with Christ, and being in fellowship now, we can be filled with the Holy Spirit, and bear much fruit. The Holy Spirit controls us while we are in fellowship, and in order to sin again, you have to be out of fellowship, this grieves the HS when we sin. The solution is to confess your known sins, and you are back in fellowship with Christ, and because you are in fellowship, controlled by the HS, you will not want to sin, but inevitably you will.

Do you see the logical problem here? Once we are in fellowship with Christ, it should not be possible to sin and fall out of fellowship with Christ. But inevitably we will, so this system doesn't work.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello to whom it may concern,

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @Lambano,

Could this help the situation?

“I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything"—but I will not be mastered by anything.


See I can do anything I want. With a relationship with the Lord Yeshua being with in me, by his spirit he will only do heavenly things as my flesh naturally will desire to be hateful, to demean, to be greedy, to hope for my neighbors failure and his lawn mower to blow up cause it wakes me up and makes me mad! After all it is “my” day off.

 

[MatthewG]

To anyone,

I remember my mother when she wouldn’t sleep well hoping for a neighbors car to blow up. Was that selfish? Of course it was. It’s the flesh. Though she was mad in those instances or when the dog wouldn’t stop barking. Did God love her any less than?

 

[KUWN]

Do you see the logical problem here? Once we are in fellowship with Christ, it should not be possible to sin and fall out of fellowship with Christ. But inevitably we will, so this system doesn't work.

It doesn't work for a system that teaches sinless perfection in this life. You are correct in saying that it should not be possible to sin in Christ and we can't, that is what 1 John 3.6, 9 say about Positional Truth. Some external influence draws/drags us out of fellowship as we are lured away from walking in the light, and often enough we sin. But we confess our sin(s) and return to fellowship and once again we are free from sin, until some external influence drags us out of Christ because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Anyone who thinks he can stand (sinless perfection), beware lest he fall (out of fellowship).

 

[Taken]

When we sin, we are no longer in fellowship. This principle is taught throughout the NT. For example, see the Lord's words in GJohn 15.4, 5, which reads:
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

John 15:4 (NIV)
[4] Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

John 15:4 (KJV)
[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Remain in … is indicative of BEING IN-DWELT with Gods Spirit and Gods Spirit IN-DWELLING in the mans spirit.

Abiding in… is indicative of a man BEING IN AGREEMENT with Gods Teaching and God IN AGREEMENT with the man Teaching according to Gods Teaching.

The NIV has changed the word “ABIDE to REMAIN…”. AS IF…
TO MEAN…A man IN the Spirit of God, has an OPTION to depart out of the Spirit of God…
(WHICH IS FALSE).

A mans spirit “IN” Gods Spirit…IS equipped to speak and teach Gods Word of Truth…
Such mans DEVIATION from Gods Word of Truth is a man WHO IS “NOT ABIDING”.

Such a mans DEVIATION has ZERO effect on his own “SECURE” Salvation….BUT MAY negatively affect another LISTENING who is NOT SAVED…to reject becoming Saved.

The “SAVED”, never become….UNSAVED.

The “UNSAVED” wrongly taught…may NEVER elect to become “SAVED”.

IF one man CLAIMS to be “SAVED” and TEACHES the “UNSAVED”….by word and example…. TO DO, THAT WHICH Gods Word is AGAINST….that ONE MAN HAS NOT ABIDED IN Gods word of teaching.

World renown example…
Bowing down before statues.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Behold]

The big question is (or is it the elephant in the room?) how do we define sin?

Its not how you define it, its How God's word defines it..

Its simply, "transgression"... its "God said dont do this.. and i will do it".

So, you have laws commandments that tell you what you can't do, and if you decide to do it, then you have rebelled...

Sin is rebellion against God's stated standards.

= The Law of Moses and Commandments.

And the true purpose of the Law and Commandments, is to show us that we are sinners, who need help., And Jesus on the Cross is the Help.....>He's the Salvation that delivers us from the curse of the law.

= The born again are "not under the Law...........but under Grace".

 

[TigersPaw]

In my opinion the biggest issue is that we take scripture out of context.
Scripture is to be taken with in the lesson of the book read in the Bible.
When we define din, or non sin, by a chapter or verse we diminish the lesson.
If we read the books in the Bible the message is pretty clear.
We are sinners, a broken people. So much so God had to come to us in his son to fix the mess.
Hence the word fix. Christ died so we may live. Christ did not die so we would not be judged.
These are two different things that reading the book, over just grabbing scripture makes clear.



My opinion, I do not think God sent his son here, just to rinse and repeat the whole process later on.
Jesus was not here to stop us from sinning, but to save us from it when we have and do.
Where the bible is vague is judgment, as you are either good to go. Or you need to have a meeting with Gods HR department :)
Joking aside, God knows you, in a way no one else does. I think if you struggle with sin. In your heart you do not want sin in your life.
And had accepted Gods plan in Christ for being saved. Then God may be merciful when Judging.
But, I think Judgment is not because you are Gay, or adulterer, or robber. I think you are judged because you in your heart want to defy God.
If God forgives all sins in Christ, then the issue really isn't sin. And it may not just be repenting either. I mean a Psychopath, may have no other way to act but against God. But perhaps in his heart he wishes he did not. A murder on death row, may have come to God. And repented. But then steals in prison, would not mean God turns away from him and he is damned.
We must always remember, the Bible is not a book. Its a Book of Books, not a book of scriptures.
Each Book has lesson and story to be told. Mixing and matching scripture in my opinion is a great way to get lost.

Me, I sin every day. I am a ordained Pastor, seminary trained. I am to be at a higher accountability.
God did not come to save us, only to condemn us. If our heart is with God. That is what I think is what matters.
Accepting Christ, I think matters way more then if you looked lustfully at a person. Or stole food.
If this was not the plan, then why even bother to Die for Our Sins, when we would be just one lack of repentance
away from judging from eternally damned does not makes sense.

What if, you have always repented ?
Yet you are sinning when you die. Does God just go. Oops. Yep you tried really hard not to sin, you accepted Christ,
repented. Too bad you died when sinning. Enjoy eternal damnation. Seems out of context for God to be that wishy washy.

 

[Behold]

Jesus was not here to stop us from sinning, but to save us from it when we have and do.

Actually, God didnt save you, so that you can behave exactly the way you did before you were saved.

You need to think about what you are posting.

Listen, Christianity is POWER OVER The world, the flesh and the Devil......its not a return to it.

 

[TigersPaw]

Actually, God didnt save you, so that you can behave exactly the way you did before you were saved.

You need to think about what you are posting.

Listen, Christianity is POWER OVER The world, the flesh and the Devil......its not a return to it.

I think you also need to rethink the big picture. Sorry but I disagree.
So please put the self righteousness back in the box.
You know what I was typing and what was being communicated, you just decided for your own enjoyment to dissect it.
Go back, and read the whole thing in context. Why is it I think you are the guy that grabs scripture and not the story behind it?
LOL wow. I love these groups, so many people putting them selves up on pedestals.
I post, because I want people to think. And yes, I know exactly what the words in the bible say.
But thinking outside the box gets us to discuss what I know is on others minds.
So why not discuss it.

 

[Behold]

So please put the self righteousness back in the box.

Its pretty foolish to state that if you are being told that you are not to live as a sinner, as you did before you were saved... as you are describing your own Christianity..........its pretty foolish of you to try to deflect that as "self righteousness" on my part.

See, im not the one on a Christian Forum who is defining Christianity as "sinning"., same as before i was saved.

So, as i told you, you have to THINK about what you are trying to prove, @TigersPaw

I think what you are trying to show us.. is that your Idea of Christianity is... "sin, confess, then repeat".

Its that right?

 

[KUWN]

John 15:4 (NIV)
[4] Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

John 15:4 (KJV)
[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Remain in … is indicative of BEING IN-DWELT with Gods Spirit and Gods Spirit IN-DWELLING in the mans spirit.

I agree with most of what you said but I don't think these verses are referencing salvation, but fellowship. I don't take these to mean being indwelt by the Spirit. That is something one has by virtue of being saved. The indwelling is permanent. These verses are talking about fellowship, which can grieve the Spirit if you sin. The solution to sin is the confession of it and moving on. By citing our sins we restore our fellowship with Christ.

 

[FearTheLord]

I agree with most of what you said but I don't think these verses are referencing salvation, but fellowship. I don't take these to mean being indwelt by the Spirit. That is something one has by virtue of being saved. The indwelling is permanent. These verses are talking about fellowship, which can grieve the Spirit if you sin. The solution to sin is the confession of it and moving on. By citing our sins we restore our fellowship with Christ.

Salvation is fellowship.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1 John 3.6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

There it is, those who abide in him do not sin. Can this be true of us?

Most translations add something close to "whosoever abides in him does not CONTINUE to sin."

I've been sinning for 66 years so I hope there is an alternate understanding of this text. There is.

By adding CONTINUE to sin you take away from John's method of writing. John uses opposites all the time, such as light/dark, sin/righteousness, life/death, etc. The solution to the apparent dilemma is known as Positional Truth. To abide "in him" is a reference to being in fellowship. When we are in fellowship and then sin, we are out of fellowship and must confess that sin to restore our fellowship with Christ.

When we are "in him" we are said to be in fellowship. We continue in fellowship until we knowingly sin. But we can not sin "in him" (in fellowship). What happens is told to us by James. Let's look at how James handles this:

1.14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires 1.15 Then when desire conceives, it give birth to sin...

When a believer is in fellowship, the only way he can sin is if he is lured out of the light of fellowship (in him) and into darkness. This is when he can sin. When he is in fellowship and abides in his new nature, he can not sin. He has to be lured out first before he is capable of sinning. So, John is saying that we can not sin at all, not that we can not keep on sinning. Note also in vs 5 where we are told that in him is no sin (not continually sinning, but sin).

I wrote a long article our here (or in some other forum) that dealt with Positional Truth. I there explain in more details what Position Truth is. For example, Paul says in Eph that we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies. We are not actually in heaven, but by virtue of Position Truth we enjoy all the benefits now, so much so that Paul says were ARE in heaven seated with Christ.

but you do not abide in him 24/7 no one does. I know many think they do. but remember, if we know to do right, but doi not do it. to us it is sin.

John said clearly, if we claim we are without sin, we are decieved.

if being sinless was so easy. I think we all would most likely do it. But the fact that only Christ ever did it. shows its not that easy

now what is easy, is to decieve ourselves that we no longer sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, but I have been sinning for 66 years.

I have 59 years and counting

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You did not answer my question-are you living in a state of never-ending sinning? This was NOT the case of Paul.

J.

Actually Paul did continue to sin. we all do.. Thats why paul kept running the race. he knew he had not made it yet.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you disagree with world renown Greek Grammarian Dan Wallace of Dallas Seminary, my former boss. You need to do more studying on the Present Tense in Rom 7. See his book Greek Grammar beyond the Basics, pg. 531. Go to the top scholars who know the original language of NT Greek. Don't take my word for it, go to the source.

Sadly some people just can't get past that.

Paul spoke present tense in rom 7, and John spoke present tense if 1 John 1

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree with this, but in order to abide in Christ we must obey his commandments. It's not burdensome (1John 5:3), so it's not difficult to completely stop sinning. It's just a matter of loving one another. We have the Holy Spirit to cut us free from sin and allow us to walk in obedience (Romans 6-8).

[Jhn 15:10 NASB95] 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.​

[1Jo 3:23-24 NASB95] 23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.​

[1Jo 5:3 NASB95] 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.​

​

God promises to provide a way out of any sin that we might be tempted to commit, so we really shouldn't be viewing sin as an inevitability as born-again believers.

[1Co 10:13 NASB95] 13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.​

​

[1Pe 4:1-2 NASB95] 1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.​

but again, no one does this. I do not do it and you do not do it. lets not decieve ourselves and think we never put our own needs above anyone else's needs. for we would be deceived (a fact John states is true so these are not my words, they are johns