Lambano
Well-Known Member
No, it is NOT silly. I knew a man whose experiences as a child and as a young teen of rejection and sexual abuse by the church led to a lifetime rejection of God. Those first cuts are the deepest.
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Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - The unforgivable sin?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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Those are the rules of the grave yard and you will find them today in grave yards you get buried by faith - there are Catholic areas Protestant areas and Jewish areas and non religious areas.The grounds are blessed by each group.Sorry that's how things work in a grave yard go look.A Muslim cannot be buried with a non Muslim and so on its in every grave yard.Jews have to be buried in a Jewish section.Its always been that way and you can't force them to bury a Jew or a Muslim in the Christian section why would you want to.
YES!!!!!!!!!!
So, what will God do with those who "reject" Him?
Punish them for all eternity because they should NOT have "lost" faith?
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The real issue is the mindset that makes all these religions think that separation is necessary.
Families are destroyed, both in life and in death. That seems wrong to me. And I applaud anyone who objects.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
What will God do with those who rape teenage boys and cause them to reject Him? Make them listen to Jack's anti-homosexual screeds for all eternity? The Lake of Fire might be more merciful.
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You can be applaud but it won't change these rules people take it seriously how and where their loved ones are buried.Its no reason to reject God its down right stupid.You going to have to live with it not going to change.No one know because all of this is hidden until someone dies no one wants to know about death and the burial processes for each religion.But they will find out and their anger will change nothing.The modern world just can't deal with how things have been done for hundreds of years at first they were buried on Church grounds and when there was no room public grave yards were created divided by faith.As a Christian if you can you want to be buried on Church grounds but that can't be done anymore so you are buried in the religious section that reflects your faith. Not going to change and no point in being angry and resentful about it.
That's not my point.
My point is that there are legitimate reasons people "reject" God.
But usually they are NOT rejecting God, they are rejecting the church.
A loving God would seek to restore a relationship rather than punish.
This may prove to be difficult, but try to put yourself in the shoes of a person that is not a Christian.
If you were raised in the church and have been attending all your life, this might be VERY difficult.
Christianity and being a part of the church is normal for you. You probably have zero objectivity.
Rejecting Christ, or rejecting "Christianity"? (the church) ???
The parody below illustrates how the church and Christians can stand in the way of someone having a relationship with Jesus. What is the solution? --- PARODY --- (the parenthetical statements represent what they are thinking) - LOL Christian: Do you know Jesus? (a very good question)...
www.christianityboard.com
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@St. SteVen
My understanding has been that someone who has never believed in Jesus and His sacrifice and the empowerment of or by the Holy Ghost cannot commit blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is committed when a person with knowledge of Jesus and His sacrifice and the power of the Holy Ghost knowingly and/or purposely speaks and/or acts against the God's Truth as he understands it.
A person cannot ignorantly commit blasphemy. Disagreement with another person's beliefs as we have often seen it on this and other forums would rarely be blasphemy.
My understanding has been that someone who has never believed in Jesus and His sacrifice and the empowerment of or by the Holy Ghost cannot commit blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is committed when a person with knowledge of Jesus and His sacrifice and the power of the Holy Ghost knowingly and/or purposely speaks and/or acts against the God's Truth as he understands it.
A person cannot ignorantly commit blasphemy. Disagreement with another person's beliefs as we have often seen it on this and other forums would rarely be blasphemy.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can only be committed by the nation of Israel who rejected Christ and attributed his miracles to Satan, it is not committed by an individual. The Blasphemy is the sin of Israel's rejecting Christ as King of the Jews. The unpardonable sin can not be committed now that Christ has ascended to heaven.
When was it that our unchangeable God became a respecter of persons?
| Lu 12:48 | But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. |
That's an interesting view.
It seemed that Jesus was claiming that the Pharisees were committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Certainly they never "believed in Jesus and His sacrifice".
Am I missing something here?
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Do you see that in the text?
Is there more scripture to back up this view?
I think it is interesting, but not sure if it is well founded.
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Jesus knew their hearts. He knew what they knew and what they were doing with what they knew.
We may know (or think we know) our own hearts, but how well do any of us know the hearts of others? Are there people who know enough of the truth to know they should be living their lives differently than they are? In spite of this they are choosing to "enjoy" this life for the moments of pleasure now rather than now striving to walk that better pathway? Some may change their ways while they still have time, but how many will always believe there is a tomorrow for them... and that tomorrow never comes? God knows, does He not?
I will have to find my notes of this, but let me say a few things now.
The Gospel of Matthew's purpose was to demonstrate that Jesus was the Messiah and had the right to rule. Jesus only allowed the message to be presented to the Jews, not Gentiles. The Kingdom of God is never explained to the Jews because they knew exactly what this Kingdom was (aka the Millennial Kingdom). it is the earthly kingdom that the Jews were waiting for. Unfortunately, the leaders of Judaism (Pharisees, Sadducees) rejected Jesus as the Messiah and the Jewish people listened to the leaders and also rejected Christ.
The kingdom of God will not happen until the Jews say Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. There is no kingdom of God to be set up until first of all the Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus and his disciples were presenting the Kingdom of God and the leaders of the Jews said he had a demon.
Jesus was called the Son of God, a messianic title, but I am rambling without my notes. I will find them. The big picture in the Gospels is that Jesus came to the Jews to set up his kingdom. It was to the Leaders of Judaism and the people of Judaism that Jesus spoke to them about the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in Matt 12. So, because of their rejection, Jesus turned to the Gentiles. And the next chapter Matt 13 is showing the Jews that their kingdom is being taken away from them, and they will have to take the consequences for committing the unpardonable sin.
Once a lot of the Jews were destroyed by the Romans in ad 70, the remnant Jewish nation was scattered into the world.
Jesus was doing the Messianic miracles predicted in the OT to announce his arrival, but the nation rejected him.
By the way, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum has a book called Footsteps of the Messiah. Get it. It is a great book if you ask me. He is the one who convinced me of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being a national sin, not an individual sin. This was some time ago, but I think you will enjoy the book.
more to come...
St. SteVen, I like this article showing the nature of the unpardonable sin. Notice at the bottom 3 resources who also address the position that the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit could only be fulfilled by first century Jews for rejecting their Messiah. This supports Fruchtenbaum's position and shows you were you can read more on this subject. I am stilling looking for my notes. I can't remember which computer I saved them on.
The Unpardonable Sin
Some people believe they have committed the unpardonable sin. They are convinced they are guilty of this sin and it weighs heavily on them (as it can’t be forgiven). There is no more grace; their situation is hopeless — or so they think. Other people make a list of different types of sins and say that if you commit this or that sin, then you are guilty of the unpardonable sin. Some say that ‘as long as you are still worried about what you did, then it proves that you have not committed the unpardonable sin.’
The unpardonable sin cannot be committed today. The only context in which the unpardonable sin is described is in the Synoptic Gospels where ‘this generation’ in Israel blasphemed the Holy Spirit by rejecting the works that Jesus Christ performed (Matthew 12:22-45; Mark 3:22-30; Luke 11:14-26). Jesus was thus not accepted as the Messiah and so the establishment and restoration of the Messianic kingdom on earth was postponed. What happened?
In God’s sovereignty and through the work of the Holy Spirit, the Messianic kingdom will be restored and established on earth when a generation of Jews come to faith in the Messiah, accepting and following the person that God has anointed as king of Israel, Jesus Christ.
According to Old Testament prophecies — see Isaiah 32:15-20; 44:3-5; Jeremiah 31: 31-34; Ezekiel 39:25-29; Joel 2:28-3:1 and Zechariah 12:8-13:1 — ‘all Israel will be saved’ and the Holy Spirit will be poured out over Israel just before the restoration and establishment of the Messianic kingdom on earth. The problem was that many Jews living during the time of Christ’s first coming thought that they would automatically enter the kingdom just because they are physical descendants of Abraham.
Against this Jewish misunderstanding and false teaching that all Jews of all time automatically inherit the age to come (cf. Matthew 3:7-10; 6:33; 12:32) due to the merits of the patriarch-fathers (cf. Matthew 8:11-12), the Lord Jesus undoubtedly insisted on a spiritual basis for the kingdom of heaven, but without abrogating or revoking the political-theocratic-governmental aspects. Again, in order to see the kingdom established in their lifetime, the Jews of that generation had to accept Jesus as the Messiah. Therefore John and Jesus preached to Israel the necessity of repenting and turning towards Jesus Christ for a righteousness that is not only external (Matthew 3:2, 8; 4:17; 5:17-20; 12:33).
God chooses the king of Israel and He sends a prophet to announce who this person is. John the Baptist is described as ‘more than a prophet’ and, as the messenger of the King, he preached the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 3:2; 11:9-11). The person God anointed as king (Jesus Christ) should be followed by the nation Israel (cf. Deuteronomy 17:14-15; Matthew 3:16-17; Luke 1:32-33). Did they?
Matthew shows that from even early on in this Gospel that neither the messenger (John the Baptist) nor the Christ, the Son of God, was accepted by that Jewish generation. Individual Jews came to faith in Christ, but not a representative number of Jews of that generation as a collective unit (‘this generation’ in the history of Israel). Jesus compares ‘this generation’ with children who neither wants to dance when the flute plays nor grieves when a dirge is sung (Matthew 11:16-17). Even cities did not repent (Matthew 11:20-24). The conflict between Jesus and the religious leaders of ‘this generation’ of Jews, however, reaches a climax in Matthew 12.
Jesus drives a demon from a man who was blind and mute, the crowd recognises this as a Messianic miracle and asks their religious leaders, “Is not this the son of David?” (Matthew 12:23). Because the miracle cannot be ignored, the Pharisees ascribe the work that the Holy Spirit performed through Jesus to Beelzebub, the prince of demons (Matthew 12:24). This is the unpardonable sin that ‘this generation’ in Israel committed and this sin is described as follows by Fruchtenbaum (1989:617; cf. McClain 1959:315-316; Scholtz 2014:4-5):
A National Sin
The unpardonable sin is therefore a national sin that was committed during Jesus’ first coming by ‘this generation’ in Israel who blasphemed the Holy Spirit. This sin has far-reaching consequences but cannot be committed today. Importantly, all is not lost for the nation of Israel. Individual Jews can and are still saved, but Israel as a nation has temporarily and partially been set aside while God works through the Church (cf. Romans 11:25-27). However, the Church does not permanently “replace” Israel. God will certainly fulfil his unconditional promises to the nation Israel (cf. Romans 11:29). A future generation of Jews in the Tribulation period will accept Jesus Christ as the Saviour-King and they will say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!” (Matthew 23:39; cf. Hosea 5:15-6:1; Zechariah 12:10). And then the Lord Jesus Christ will come to the earth!
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This is the last article in this mini series about sin. If you would like to read the original article, please visit Ariel’s website.
Sources used or referred to:
- Fruchtenbaum, A.G., 1989, Israelology: The missing link in systematic theology, Ariel Ministries, Tustin.
- McClain, A.J., 1959, The greatness of the Kingdom: An inductive study of the Kingdom of God, BHM Books, Winona Lake.
- Scholtz, J.J., 2014, The kingdom of heaven and Matthew 10, In die Skriflig 48(1), Art. #1782, 8 pages.
Thank you.
I wonder how we can balance the statement that "all Israel will be saved" with Jesus statement that
"anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matt.12:32) See below.
And wasn't Israel's sin speaking a word against the Son of Man? Which will be forgiven. ???
Matthew 12:30-32 NIV
“Whoever is not with me is against me,
and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven,
but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven,
but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven,
either in this age or in the age to come.
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It seems to me that every attempt to answer this question is reverse engineered from the conclusion.
What is the unpardonable sin?
What is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?, is only answered in the passage.
Which still leaves questions.
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What is the unpardonable sin?
What is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?, is only answered in the passage.
Which still leaves questions.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
If "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" is a corporate sin by God's people in rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit, who says the Church can't do the same thing today? (Cessationism?) Where are we rejecting the work of the Spirit today?
BTW, years ago, I read something by a Muslim apologist stating that the Church corporately committed the unpardonable sin of "polytheism" starting with Nicaea in 325 CE, so God had to correct this with his revelation to Mohammed in 610 CE.
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