Apokatastasis in the early church

[David in NJ]

Don't be ridiculous.

List of Church Fathers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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God did not establish "Church fathers" after the Apostles

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

What God did do, and still does, is this:

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;



@amigo de christo

 

[BarneyFife]

I scrolled through that link. It actually looks pretty good. Including this.

Conclusion:
Some people believe that God does not want to save all people. Others believe that God cannot save all people.
But those who believe in universal reconciliation are convinced that God wants to save all people, that he can do it, and that he will do it!

/

I just stumbled over this while checking on a hilarity reaction I got from @Lambano.

In review (and I don't know if I'm expressing this correctly) I kind of object intellectually to explanations of things that speculate as to the mind of God, so to speak.

I don't think human beings have very much to say, authoritatively, about the tension between God's mercy and justice (and I believe that's why He reserves the administration of ultimate vengeance to Himself), but I do think that the best illustration we have of the depth of its (mercy/justice) love and complexity is what I like to call "The Calvary Event." I think everything should be viewed from that point.

I don't mean to evoke tokenism or name-dropping but far too much of what we think, say, and do either politely or, sadly, impolitely excuses Christ from the room, at least, according to our presumptuous consciousnesses.

But, back to mercy and justice, it is a glaring theme throughout the Bible and, contrary to what some insist, it's also a prominent feature of both the old and new covenants, at least, the historical ones. In the Most Holy Place of the Hebrew Sanctuary, the ark of the covenant featured both the law and the mercy seat, after all. There's hardly any narrative or proper story in Scripture that we don't see these two principles playing out.

The concepts of mercy and justice mingled don't play well with UR in the minds of the vast majority of Christians.

And then, just having said that, I realize that my own view of mercy/justice in the final resolution doesn't, either.

But to just say that the brand of UR justice is something we simply must take on what I cannot but perceive as blind faith is not tenable to me as of yet.

As for myself, I've grown more curious and tolerant/accommodating (sounds condescending, doesn't it?) about what others believe and practice.

Yet, at the same time, I've become more confident in my own beliefs as being both efficacious for me and my fellow adherents and, at least, welcoming and harmless to others.

I don't like the "does not want to" and "cannot" options any more than you do, my Friend.

I just don't think that "can" and "will" is the solution to what appears to me to be a logical fallacy of the "false dilemma/dichotomy" type.

This is admittedly harsh, and not at all meant to be personal, but holding the character of God for ransom to the presupposition that all people must be saved simply is not pressing on the minds of most Christians—frankly, it seems eerily like an atheistic/skeptic demand—and doesn't appear to be supported by a preponderance of scriptural evidence.

Again, I insist this is not meant to be a demonization of adherents to UR (which I realize might now ensue peripherally) any more than I would wish to demonize atheists—which I realize will horrify the Archie Bunkers in our midst. And, oddly enough, I'm having a deja vu just now - lol.

And how's that for an unprovoked, Sunday afternoon thrashing? I feel icky, like I kicked a really cute puppy.

"You'll shoot your eye out, Kid."

(I'm getting ready to watch "A Christmas Story." I'm watching at least one old Christmas movie every day of December until the 25th. I have a sort-of tradition of watching "White Christmas" at the end of Christmas Day. And you're all up to date on my sad life - lol.)

:)

 

[St. SteVen]

The concepts of mercy and justice mingled don't play well with UR in the minds of the vast majority of Christians.

I find it curious that people would have the view that mercy and justice are like oil and water.

As if mercy ISN'T justice.

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[St. SteVen]

I don't like the "does not want to" and "cannot" options any more than you do, my Friend.

Can you live with the conclusions of that view?

That God's will is frustrated by humankind? (on earth as it is in heaven)

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[BarneyFife]

I find it curious that people would have the view that mercy and justice are like oil and water.

As if mercy ISN'T justice.

[

It occurs to me that this would depend on what one's definition of mercy and/or justice might be.

If it includes final retribution, then there's understandable tension involved between conceptual notions of the two divine characteristics.

:)

 

[BarneyFife]

Can you live with the conclusions of that view?

That God's will is frustrated by humankind? (on earth as it is in heaven)

[

I don't hold to either view so there's nothing to live with, I reckon.

God's will is not fully understood or, at least, agreed upon. Of that there seems to be little doubt.

:)

 

[BarneyFife]

Does it seem more fitting that a life of misery should end in incineration for the vast majority?

In reviewing this, I'd say that assuming the lost constitutes a vast majority of humanity could be a mistake. I don't think the Bible makes such a case conclusively.

In any case, the numbers are not up to us. Nor are they really of any consequence, IMO. If God's plan is to allow numbers which seem overwhelming to me to be lost, who am I to call His judgment into question on that basis?

It's impossible for us to imagine the anguish in the heart of God over even one lost soul.

But after all, for all we know there could be billions of happy inhabited worlds beyond our reach or perception, so if we're involved in number-crunching as a criteria for judging God's character, He may yet have some unimaginable surprises for us.

I think it's safest to limit my questions about God's character to what's revealed plainly in His word. And, as I'm admittedly even tired of hearing myself say: I don't find the view that all are ultimately redeemed supported nearly as well in Scripture as the contrary.

And you're too nice a fella for me to push this any further for now. I feel like I've gone too far already.

:)

 

[David in NJ]

In reviewing this, I'd say that assuming the lost constitutes a vast majority of humanity could be a mistake. I don't think the Bible makes such a case conclusively.

In any case, the numbers are not up to us. Nor are they really of any consequence, IMO. If God's plan is to allow numbers which seem overwhelming to me to be lost, who am I to call His judgment into question on that basis?

It's impossible for us to imagine the anguish in the heart of God over even one lost soul.

But after all, for all we know there could be billions of happy inhabited worlds beyond our reach or perception, so if we're involved in number-crunching as a criteria for judging God's character, He may yet have some unimaginable surprises for us.

I think it's safest to limit my questions about God's character to what's revealed plainly in His word. And, as I'm admittedly even tired of hearing myself say: I don't find the view that all are ultimately redeemed supported nearly as well in Scripture as the contrary.

And you're too nice a fella for me to push this any further for now. I feel like I've gone too far already.

:)

In reviewing this, I'd say that assuming the lost constitutes a vast majority of humanity could be a mistake.
I don't think the Bible makes such a case conclusively.

Well, the truth of the matter was definitively given by the Lord Jesus Christ in His Gospel.

A.) the Parable of the Sower and His Definition of it - Luke 8:11-15
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

B.) "Who then can be saved?" - Matthew 19:23-26

C.) The Narrow Way - “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

D.) If we were able to be SAVED by being "too nice of a fellow", God would of established that principal in Genesis.

E.) JESUS was the nicest fellow anyone could meet, yet HE was reviled, hated, beaten without mercy and nailed to a Cross.

F.) Not one of the blows HE took to His face paid for His sins

G.) Not one of the whips that cut open His back paid for His sins

H.) Not one of the thorns pressed deep into His head paid for His sins

I.) Not one of the nails that pierced His hands and feet paid for His sins

J.) JESUS took the blows, the whips, the thorns, the nails in order to PAY for our sins.
When HE became the "lamb that takes away the sins of the world" on the Cross.

 

[St. SteVen]

It occurs to me that this would depend on what one's definition of mercy and/or justice might be.

If it includes final retribution, then there's understandable tension involved between conceptual notions of the two divine characteristics.

I think what God wants is reconciliation of all parties in a situation.
If we are guilty of a transgression, it probably involves others somehow who suffered from our actions.
I see all effected parties being brought together to reach a resolution.

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[David in NJ]

I think what God wants is reconciliation of all parties in a situation.
If we are guilty of a transgression, it probably involves others somehow who suffered from our actions.
I see all effected parties being brought together to reach a resolution.

[

You see as you desire to see AND i also wish that desire of total reconciliation to be true as well.

DILEMMA = Who r u gunna b-leave???

C?

In your desire for all to be saved, does it disregard or contradict the words of CHRIST???

C?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Does it seem more fitting that a life of misery should end in incineration for the vast majority?

In reviewing this, I'd say that assuming the lost constitutes a vast majority of humanity could be a mistake. I don't think the Bible makes such a case conclusively.

Oftentimes I speak in terms that the majority can understand. I obviously don't believe that the vast majority will be incinerated.
But those that claim the broad and narrow way certainly do. Whether they will admit it or not.
To them, "few there be that find it" is in reference to salvation.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

And you're too nice a fella for me to push this any further for now. I feel like I've gone too far already.

No worries. This has been a good discussion. IMO

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't find the view that all are ultimately redeemed supported nearly as well in Scripture as the contrary.

That's a curious thing.
The preconceptions we bring to the scriptures have a great influence on what we see in them.

If you assume that ultimate restoration is God's long-term plan, then the whole Bible is about that,
except for a half dozen pesky damnationist verses that can be argued with.

If you read the Bible with a damnationist view, then the whole book is about the wrath of God,
except for a few dozen Universalist verses.

Note the comparison. "a half dozen" versus "a few dozen". - LOL

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[ScottA]

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism,
Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption, Ultimate Reconciliation, UR...

There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians cooked up. Not so.

Apokatastasis was a major part of Christian theology in the early church.

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin,
Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the
two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem,
Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha,
Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena,
and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

--- Agree or disagree? ---

Quotes from the early church fathers in the next post.


@Chadrho @Patrick1966

Apokatastasis is only used one time in scriptures, translated as "restitution":

Act 3:21​

Whom G3739 the heaven G3772 G3303 must G1163 receive G1209 until G891 the times G5550 of restitution G605 of all things, G3956 which G3739 God G2316 hath spoken G2980 by G1223 the mouth G4750 of all G3956 his G846 holy G40 prophets G4396 since G575 the world began. G165​

In the context that Peter spoke of it, he was referring to restitution being fulfilled over time among those who are saved. In other words, Jesus had "finished" His work with the house of Israel for which He came, and yet had "another fold" which He said He "must also bring." Meaning that until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, restitution would continue.

 

[BarneyFife]

That's a curious thing.
The preconceptions we bring to the scriptures have a great influence on what we see in them.

If you assume that ultimate restoration is God's long-term plan, then the whole Bible is about that,
except for a half dozen perky damnationist verses that can be argued with.

If you read the Bible with a damnationist view, then the whole book is about the wrath of God,
except for a few dozen Universalist verses.

Note the comparison. "a half dozen" versus "a few dozen". - LOL

[

Seems like a non sequitur.

When I first started reading the Bible I had no notion of "damnationist" (of which I've frankly never heard) or "ultimate restoration" views whatsoever.

Besides that, it seems like you and I both broke free from our eventually formed preconceptions in this regard. You weren't raised UR, if I recall correctly, and I wasn't raised annihilationist.

The proof text count doesn't sound right to me, but like you say, the true disposition of sin and finally unrepentant sinners can indeed be found everywhere in the Bible.

:)

 

[ProDeo]

I'm glad that you at least understand that aionios does not mean eternal. (age-lasting or age-during) as you wrote.

Correct.

Aionios on the other hand -

Joh 3:16 - for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. [ YLT ]

Whoops....

 

[ProDeo]

I wasn't denying that David was a prophet.

I was pointing out that David IS a prophet, even though he doesn't claim to be one (to the best of my knowledge). There is unlabeled prophecy in the Bible.

Jesus last words (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?) was also His last sermon as He quoted from Psalm 22 from David.

Ps 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Ps 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast;
Ps 22:15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.
Ps 22:16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet—
Ps 22:17 I can count all my bones— they stare and gloat over me;
Ps 22:18 they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.

Surely the Pharisees must have understood what their eyes saw was predicted by David.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I wasn't denying that David was a prophet.

I was pointing out that David IS a prophet, even though he doesn't claim to be one (to the best of my knowledge). There is unlabeled prophecy in the Bible.

The NT refers to David as a prophet, and his Psalms contain prophecies.

Acts 2:29 Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32
God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.

 

[St. SteVen]

Apokatastasis is only used one time in scriptures, translated as "restitution":

Act 3:21​

Whom G3739 the heaven G3772 G3303 must G1163 receive G1209 until G891 the times G5550 of restitution G605 of all things, G3956 which G3739 God G2316 hath spoken G2980 by G1223 the mouth G4750 of all G3956 his G846 holy G40 prophets G4396 since G575 the world began. G165​

In the context that Peter spoke of it, he was referring to restitution being fulfilled over time among those who are saved. In other words, Jesus had "finished" His work with the house of Israel for which He came, and yet had "another fold" which He said He "must also bring." Meaning that until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, restitution would continue.

Here's what I find at your G605 link. Restoration.



[

 

[St. SteVen]

Seems like a non sequitur.

When I first started reading the Bible I had no notion of "damnationist" (of which I've frankly never heard) or "ultimate restoration" views whatsoever.

Besides that, it seems like you and I both broke free from our eventually formed preconceptions in this regard. You weren't raised UR, if I recall correctly, and I wasn't raised annihilationist.

The proof text count doesn't sound right to me, but like you say, the true disposition of sin and finally unrepentant sinners can indeed be found everywhere in the Bible.

As a young child, long before I was able to read the Bible, I knew what heaven and hell were.
It is woven into our social fabric.

[