Were Jesus's brothers born of another woman?

[Matthias]

X / Twitter strikes my “For you” feed again.

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[RedFan]

Let me be blunt:
Jesus was either God or He was crazy.
He healed persons and only God can heal.

I never heard this theory before, and it's interesting to me. There are accounts of healing by the apostles:

• All the apostles healed people (Mark 6:13)
• Peter & John healed a lame man (Acts 3:1-11; 3:16)
• Philip cast out demons and healed the lame (Acts 8:7; 8:13)

I have always assumed from these passages that healing powers can be delegated by God to others who are NOT themselves God. To be clear, I share your view that Jesus was God. I am just puzzled by this particular argument for His divinity. It doesn't make sense to me. The power to heal doesn't make the healer God, as I see it at least.

 

[GodsGrace]

I never heard this theory before, and it's interesting to me. There are accounts of healing by the apostles:

• All the apostles healed people (Mark 6:13)
• Peter & John healed a lame man (Acts 3:1-11; 3:16)
• Philip cast out demons and healed the lame (Acts 8:7; 8:13)

I have always assumed from these passages that healing powers can be delegated by God to others who are NOT themselves God. To be clear, I share your view that Jesus was God. I am just puzzled by this particular argument for His divinity. It doesn't make sense to me. The power to heal doesn't make the healer God, as I see it at least.

Yes. I agree that others could also heal even though it will always be by the power given by God.
In Jesus' case, He healed MANY persons and God gave Him this power to prove that He was God.
No one can heal that many persons in their ministry.

Also, let's look at Mark 2:5-12 for further understanding.

5And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
7“Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
8Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?
9“Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’?
10“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic,
11“I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.” 12And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”

I'm sure you've heard this before, but note what I underlined.
First Jesus told the man his sins were forgiven.
This ONLY GOD can do....and it was noted.

Jesus said that so that HE HAS AUTHORITY TO FORGIVE SINS.....He would also prove it by telling the man to get up and walk....
WHICH HE DID.

So it's not that Jesus just completed a miracle....
But He also forgave the man his sins and then told him to walk which showed that Jesus could do both.

I think this is a more complete idea....

 

[Matthias]

God, I suggest to our readers, did not give God the power to heal people.

 

[RedFan]

Yes. I agree that others could also heal even though it will always be by the power given by God.
In Jesus' case, He healed MANY persons and God gave Him this power to prove that He was God.
No one can heal that many persons in their ministry.

Also, let's look at Mark 2:5-12 for further understanding.

5And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
7“Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
8Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?
9“Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’?
10“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic,
11“I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.” 12And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”

I'm sure you've heard this before, but note what I underlined.
First Jesus told the man his sins were forgiven.
This ONLY GOD can do....and it was noted.

Jesus said that so that HE HAS AUTHORITY TO FORGIVE SINS.....He would also prove it by telling the man to get up and walk....
WHICH HE DID.

So it's not that Jesus just completed a miracle....
But He also forgave the man his sins and then told him to walk which showed that Jesus could do both.

I think this is a more complete idea....

Understood. But to be fair, and like the power to heal, power to forgive sins was delegated to the apostles as well (John 20:23).

 

[GodsGrace]

I was saying that most people who become or choose to remain a practicing Catholic do so because they believe what the Catholic Church teaches to be the truth for the reasons that they do. Inspired by the Gospel and sustained by God's grace, a "practicing Catholic" will give sincere external expression to their interior faith through specific religious, moral and ethical behavior which is in accordance with the teaching of Christ and the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church doesn't tell Catholics that they must believe this or that without question. I think the people who think that, like Mathias, just misunderstand what a Catholic dogma is.

OK Two points:
1. I did say that we should define what a practicing Catholic is.
I believe that you mean by this a person that is not just going through the motions, but has studied either the bible or the CCC or perhaps both and truly believes what the church teaches and accepts it.

If this is what you mean by a practicing catholic, then I agree.
When I was growing up and in the CC....a practicing Catholic could have meant something as simple as someone that goes to Mass every Sunday...does his Lenten duties, goes to confession, etc.

However, A....I must disagree with your second point.
I think @Matthias knows more about Catholicism than most on these forums.
It's absolutely true that a Catholic is expected to believe each and every dogma.
Do you agree with this?

You find no mention of the Blessed Virgin Mary's bodily assumption into Heaven in Scripture? That doesn't mean it didn't happen, because when The Bible was compiled, there were writings that weren't included, which means that there's true information out there that isn't found in The Bible.

I agree with the above and have said so many times.
I've gone so far as to say that SOME ECFs are inspired by God. If we want to admit what INSPIRED means.

I just have never run into any writing that claims this...or, at least, it wasn't quoted by any church father that I've been exposed to.
This doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Have you ever read any such writing?

Additionally, there's the fact that Jesus has continued to speak to people throughout time. Regarding the Assumption of Mary, while the Catholic Church has always had reasons for teaching that, in more recent times Jesus has reconfirmed the truth about it by giving a vision of it, as well as His Mother, Mary, commenting on it, to Jesus's spokesperson Maria Valtorta.

Like I said....I appreciate and respect these saints and have even studied a few with a Catholic Monk,,,,but I really cannot accept what they say as being like scripture or even as being like something an ECF would write.
This is my belief....I could be wrong on this.

The idea of Purgatory is scriptural: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins" (2 Macc. 12:46). Also, for example, in Jesus's parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, He spoke of "Abraham's Bosom" which is another name for Purgatory.

OK...I don't like to debate Catholic teachings because I happen to understand them and respect the CC.
I'd have to get into the fact that a person's sins must be forgiven while they are still alive...not after they're dead as Macc states.
Also, Abraham's Bossom is not another name for purgatory.
It was not a place for purification but a place of comfort while waiting for the gates of heaven to be opened when Jesus was on the cross and the curtain to the inner sanctuary (Holy of Holies) was torn from top to bottom.
1 Cor 3:15 is also used for the idea of Purgatory,,,but this is also taken out of context.

Some may say it's not evidence for such a place to be real, but Heaven is also referred to in Jesus's parables, and that's a real place. While the Catholic Church has always had reasons for teaching about Purgatory, in more recent times Jesus has reconfirmed the truth about it by speaking to His spokesperson Maria Valtorta about it. Maria Simma has also received revelations about Purgatory, and here's a good quote of hers:

Yes. I do know about this. But they repeat what they have been taught.

"Sister Emmanuel has a good way of explaining Purgatory: Let us suppose that one day a door opens, and a splendid being appears with an overwhelming and fascinating beauty never seen on this earth, full of light and radiance. What is amazing is this being shows that he is madly in love with you with a love you have never known before. And you sense that he has a great desire to draw himself to you. At the same time you also sense a great desire to draw yourself to him and to throw yourself into his arms. But suddenly you realize that you haven’t washed for months and months, that you smell bad, that your hair is matted and greasy and your clothes stained with dirt and mud. Then you say to yourself, “No, I can’t present myself like this to him. I must wash, take a good bath, change my clothes, make myself smell good and then I will come back straight away.”

Many examples such as the above.
But....isn't this the reason for Jesus' sacrifice?
Isn't this sufficient for our salvation without having to go through further purification?

Purgatory is exactly like this. It is a delay imposed by our impurity, a delay before God’s embrace which causes intense suffering. It is said that at death, your life will be presented to you as if in a film and you will be aghast when you realize your unworthiness.

LOL
I'm aghast at my unworthiness right now!
Also, we don't know that it causes great suffering.
We don't know WHAT purgatory is....and this will be confirmed by any priest you speak to.
It could be only an instant.

The CC used to place TIME in purgatory....like we use time here on earth.
It is now teaching that there is no time in purgatory and we could not speak of it in that way,,,,except maybe to make persons understand better.

Did you know that children are more afraid of purgatory than of hell?

Suddenly, you yourself will be in a hurry to run to Purgatory for purification because you would not want that delay to be one second longer. It is the soul itself upon realizing its unworthiness to want to hurry up his cleansing in Purgatory so that it can embrace its God at the earliest possible time".

Not me A.
I'm depending on my Savior....Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

God, I suggest to our readers, did not give God the power to heal people.

Just fell on this M.
Persons that don't accept the Trinity should not be making statements such as yours!

 

[Matthias]

Just fell on this M.
Persons that don't accept the Trinity should not be making statements such as yours!

They should be denied freedom to express their conscience?

 

[GodsGrace]

They should be denied freedom to express their conscience?

Expressing your conscience is stating that there is only one God and not 3 Gods.
(because from your statements this is what you understand Christianity to believe).

Making odd statement which show that you do not accept and thus do not understand the Trinity
is NOT expressing your conscience.

This is my understanding of what conscience is.....I could be wrong.

 

[GodsGrace]

Understood. But to be fair, and like the power to heal, power to forgive sins was delegated to the apostles as well (John 20:23).

Agreed.
But it's not the Apostles or the priest that forgives the sin....
It's God.
The priest only proclaims whether or not the sin has been forgiven.
(sometimes it's not).

 

[Lambano]

I agree. There's too much we don't know and I'm not making any definitive statement here.
What I'm saying is that it makes sense to me ---- I mean the IC.

Fair enough.

 

[RedFan]

Expressing your conscience is stating that there is only one God and not 3 Gods.
(because from your statements this is what you understand Christianity to believe).

Making odd statement which show that you do not accept and thus do not understand the Trinity
is NOT expressing your conscience.

This is my understanding of what conscience is.....I could be wrong.

I won't attempt to define "conscience" here, but I do think that the statement "do not accept and thus do not understand the Trinity" needs some clarification, GG. I suspect there are many who understand the Trinity tolerably well, yet reject it. I think "thus" is a stretch here.

 

[Matthias]

Expressing your conscience is stating that there is only one God and not 3 Gods.
(because from your statements this is what you understand Christianity to believe).

That’s not my understanding of Christianity.

Making odd statement which show that you do not accept and thus do not understand the Trinity …

We’ve been here before. It’s not that I don’t understand the Trinity but rather that I do that causes me not to accept it.

… is NOT expressing your conscience.

My conscience dictates that my God can be no other than the Messiah’s God.

This is my understanding of what conscience is.....I could be wrong.

I allow you (and others) freedom of conscience. Your conscience doesn’t dictate to you what my conscience dictates to me. I still consider you to be on the Christian spectrum.

 

[RedFan]

We’ve been here before. It’s not that I don’t understand the Trinity but rather that I do that causes me not to accept it.

I know it's a banned topic, but I sure would like to hear your understanding of it. I've discussed the topic with a number of Catholics and non-Catholics who do not seem to grasp it, at least not the way I understand the concept.

 

[Matthias]

I know it's a banned topic, but I sure would like to hear your understanding of it.

My understanding of it matches the Catholic Church understanding of it. (I think I can safely say that much without violating the board policy.)

I've discussed the topic with a number of Catholics and non-Catholics who do not seem to grasp it, at least not the way I understand the concept.

It’s wild to me that the details are seldom taught in Church. It is generally assumed by clergy that the people sitting in the pews understand it. A “general idea” is deemed “close enough”.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know it's a banned topic, but I sure would like to hear your understanding of it. I've discussed the topic with a number of Catholics and non-Catholics who do not seem to grasp it, at least not the way I understand the concept.

It's simple RedFan...the other member believes Deuteronomy 6:4-5 The Shema.

What would be interesting here is if you and I explained how we understand the Trinity....
But will reply after dinner.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know it's a banned topic, but I sure would like to hear your understanding of it. I've discussed the topic with a number of Catholics and non-Catholics who do not seem to grasp it, at least not the way I understand the concept.

Oh. You mean HIS understanding of HOW the CC teaches it....
OK

But my other post still stands.
Later.

 

[RedFan]

My understanding of it matches the Catholic Church understanding of it.



It’s wild to me that the details are seldom taught in Church. It is generally assumed by clergy that the people sitting in the pews understand it. A “general idea” is deemed “close enough”.

That's because the details are obtuse! The Nicene Creed starts "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty," as though to identify Who the One God is. And what follows in the description of Jesus Christ ("one in being with" and "true God from true God") proceeds to call that conclusion into question. Not an easy concept for the rank and file in the pews to digest!

 

[Matthias]

It's simple RedFan...the other member believes Deuteronomy 6:4-5 The Shema.

The unitarian Creed of Judaism, and the Messiah’s own Creed. It has nothing to do with my understanding of the Trinity. That understanding comes from the Catholic Church and its Creeds.

The monotheism of Judaism isn’t the monotheism of the Catholic Church.

I’ve mentioned previously the quotation from Gregory of Nyssa concerning the Catholic Church destroying the dogma of Judaism, my dogma. He’s right. It does. Have you read his statement?

 

[Matthias]

It wasn’t the Southern Baptist Church I was raised in that taught me the details of the doctrine. It was the Catholic Church that did. I’m grateful that it did.

My daughter and son-in-law decided to enroll my grandson in a Baptist private school. I had encouraged them to enroll him in a Catholic school. I wanted him to understand the history and the details. The Baptist school they chose is academically excellent but it won’t equip him with that. I will, with the approval of his parents.