DOES THE TRANSFIGURATION RESOLVE MATTHEW 16:28 ?

[Doug]

[Mat 16:28 KJV] 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Could it be that Jesus was not saying that those standing there in front of him would not taste death and see his coming Davidic kingdom on earth, but he was referring to a future group. It could be that believing Jews would come out of the tribulation and stand where he was, not taste death, and see his coming and the kingdom.

Can this verse be explained by the transfiguration? Many say that the transfiguration supports claiming that Matthew 16:28 was resolved by the disciples seeing Christ coming in His kingdom at this event.

Below is the transfiguration in question.

[Mat 17:1-2 KJV] 1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

[Mat 17:9 KJV] 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Matthew 16:28 describes seeing a literal kingdom, but Jesus says in the verse above that the transfiguration was a vision. A vision of the kingdom does not fulfill the actual appearance of the kingdom.

[2Pe 1:16 KJV] 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Peter made known the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ but did not say he was eyewitness to it. Peter said he was eyewitness to his majesty.

[2Pe 1:17 KJV] 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The honour and glory the Lord Jesus received from the Father was what Peter eye witnessed. Jesus did not receive the literal kingdom in the transfiguration.

For me, the transfiguration does not serve as an explanation to Matthew 16:28.

 

[Rockerduck]

Matthew 17. When Jesus says don't tell anyone this "vision". Don't think of this as visions and dreams, but as Jesus says to tell no one what you have seen.
Matthew 16. There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
The question is answered in Matthew 17:9 -Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Obviously, this is a reference to Jesus's resurrection. The "some" are apostles in this case.

 

[Doug]

Matthew 17. When Jesus says don't tell anyone this "vision". Don't think of this as visions and dreams, but as Jesus says to tell no one what you have seen.
Matthew 16. There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
The question is answered in Matthew 17:9 -Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Obviously, this is a reference to Jesus's resurrection. The "some" are apostles in this case.

I see what you are saying but it seems to me that just seeing is not what a vision is. It is an appearance from God.
[Act 11:5 KJV] 5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
Peter did say he saw it but it was a vision.

Matthew 17:9 was definitely saying that they should tell no one til Christ was resurrected.

 

[Rockerduck]

I see what you are saying but it seems to me that just seeing is not what a vision is. It is an appearance from God.
[Act 11:5 KJV] 5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
Peter did say he saw it but it was a vision.

Matthew 17:9 was definitely saying that they should tell no one til Christ was resurrected.

But Peter said it was a vision this time, and yes, I've had visions, some are dream/visions. Peter was let out Jail by an Angel and Peter thought it was vision at that time, until after but it was real.

 

[Doug]

But Peter said it was a vision this time, and yes, I've had visions, some are dream/visions. Peter was let out Jail by an Angel and Peter thought it was vision at that time, until after but it was real.

But Jesus also as Peter said it was a vision.

 

[Doug]

But Peter said it was a vision this time, and yes, I've had visions, some are dream/visions. Peter was let out Jail by an Angel and Peter thought it was vision at that time, until after but it was real.

I think we said enough about visions, and I appreciate your view.

The one thing to keep in mind is Jesus said they would see his kingdom on earth and it has yet to come.

 

[RedFan]

How is the Transfiguration "the Son of man coming in his kingdom"? How is it the Son of Man "coming" at all? I'm not seeing it.

Neither did the Thessalonians. They understood Jesus's words to mean the Second Coming would occur within a generation. First Thessalonians was written to quell their concerns that so may brethren were dying physically (had they messed up in God's eyes somehow?), and might be disadvantaged compared to the rest who would be alive at the Second Coming.

 

[Doug]

How is the Transfiguration "the Son of man coming in his kingdom"? How is it the Son of Man "coming" at all? I'm not seeing it.

Neither did the Thessalonians. They understood Jesus's words to mean the Second Coming would occur within a generation. First Thessalonians was written to quell their concerns that so may brethren were dying physically (had they messed up in God's eyes somehow?), and might be disadvantaged compared to the rest who would be alive at the Second Coming.

I dont see the transfiguration having anything to do with his coming into his kingdom but it reveals his glory

 

[RedFan]

I dont see the transfiguration having anything to do with his coming into his kingdom but it reveals his glory

It does indeed show glory. Interesting that he chose only three witnesses to the event.

 

[Doug]

How is the Transfiguration "the Son of man coming in his kingdom"? How is it the Son of Man "coming" at all? I'm not seeing it.

Neither did the Thessalonians. They understood Jesus's words to mean the Second Coming would occur within a generation. First Thessalonians was written to quell their concerns that so may brethren were dying physically (had they messed up in God's eyes somehow?), and might be disadvantaged compared to the rest who would be alive at the Second Coming.

The one thing to keep in mind is Jesus said they would see his kingdom on earth and it has yet to come.
When I said this I was referring to Matthew 16:28
[Mat 16:28 KJV] 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
He said that those standing there would see his kingdom at his coming. That has yet to appear.

 

[RedFan]

The one thing to keep in mind is Jesus said they would see his kingdom on earth and it has yet to come.
When I said this I was referring to Matthew 16:28
[Mat 16:28 KJV] 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
He said that those standing there would see his kingdom at his coming. That has yet to appear.

I find it interesting that all of the Synoptics follow their renditions of Jesus's "some standing here" statement immediately with an account of the Transfiguration. Coincidence (they otherwise disagree in their chronologies of Jesus's ministry)? Or meant to suggest something about the relation between the two events?

 

[Doug]

I find it interesting that all of the Synoptics follow their renditions of Jesus's "some standing here" statement immediately with an account of the Transfiguration. Coincidence (they otherwise disagree in their chronologies of Jesus's ministry)? Or meant to suggest something about the relation between the two events?

Good point

[Luk 9:29-31 KJV] 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white [and] glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.[

Just because the transfiguration happens next does not mean it was connected.
Jesus never said it was connected to his saying there would be some to see the kingdom.
Jesus never said the apostles were in view.

Most significant look at verse 31 above
Moses and Elias did not say one word recorded about the kingdom; they spoke of his death.

 

[Verily]

Isaiah 29:11 Speaks of the words of the book as the "vision of all" and Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus on the mount could also represent the vision of all (or the Law and the prophets in a figure) speaking of "the sufferings of Christ" (or of his decease) in that manner. When Peter starts wanting to build tabernacles (as Moses was instructed to do on the mount) the Father comes in at that point telling them to hear his Son (and Moses and Elijah disappear) and only Christ remains, who tells them to tell no man the vision (which included Moses and Elijah) until after he has been raised from the dead always reminded me of "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets". And his reproof after he was risen from the dead " Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Who (on the mount) it says, appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem Luke 9:31

Now when Moses was on the Mount in the OT it says,

Heb 8:5... Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

And so Peter on the Mount says

Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Where the Father come in on Christ's behalf to hear him

Hebrews 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Then Moses and Elijah leave the vision.

 

[Rockerduck]

Peter does not refer to the transfiguration as a vision here.

2 Peter 1:16 -KJV- For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

 

[Doug]

Peter does not refer to the transfiguration as a vision here.

2 Peter 1:16 -KJV- For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

So glad you raised this point
I think otherwise and here is why.

[Act 3:19-21 KJV] 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Here above is an example of how Peter made known the coming of Lord Jesus Christ. It was by preaching not by a witness to the kingdom through the transfiguration.

but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Above Peter said he was an eyewitness of Christ's majesty not of the kingdom to come.

 

[Verily]

Peter does not refer to the transfiguration as a vision here.

2 Peter 1:16 -KJV- For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

He spake by them by the same

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Its these

Luke 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.


Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

They who appeared with him testified of Christ (His sufferings) or His decease, and God spake by them in the past and here they stand with Christ on the mount with him. Moses was to make a tabernacle according to the patern shown him on the mount, Moses wrote of Jesus. Peter seeing all three of them wanting to make three tabernacles (one for each) in the patern he was seeing on the mount. The Father interjects (they disappear from the vision).

Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

As it says,

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

They speaking about the the sufferings of Christ (seeing before) could be understood as a vision of all and would not be considered a fable because it might be.

 

[Rockerduck]

No vision mentioned here either.

Mark 9:9 - And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

 

[Verily]

It's the same word in the following verses, not sure if this will post it has links in the books part, I think I have 10 posts, I didn't count them.

Matt.17​

1. [9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Luke.1​

1. [22] And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless.

Luke.24​

1. [23] And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

Acts.2​

1. [17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts.9​

1. [10] And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
2. [12] And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Acts.10​

1. [3] He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
2. [17] Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
3. [19] While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

Acts.11​

1. [5] I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

Acts.12​

1. [9] And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.

Acts.16​

1. [9] And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
2. [10] And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavored to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Acts.18​

1. [9] Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

The definition includes

1. that which is seen, spectacle
2. a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy OR in a sleep, a vision

Sometimes the words "seen" is used before the same word vision and after

Acts 9:12 [12] And hath seen in a vision....

Acts 10:17... what this vision which he had seen

Regardless, it was a sight divinely granted (per the definition) the experience itself was real and something observed by them, and prophetic since both they spoke of Jesus decease in writing and on the mount.

Which shortly dissipated after Peter sets forth his grandios idea to build three tablernacles for them.

 

[Rockerduck]

It's the same word in the following verses, not sure if this will post it has links in the books part, I think I have 10 posts, I didn't count them.

Matt.17​

1. [9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Luke.1​

1. [22] And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless.

Luke.24​

1. [23] And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

Acts.2​

1. [17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts.9​

1. [10] And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
2. [12] And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Acts.10​

1. [3] He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
2. [17] Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
3. [19] While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

Acts.11​

1. [5] I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

Acts.12​

1. [9] And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.

Acts.16​

1. [9] And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
2. [10] And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavored to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Acts.18​

1. [9] Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

The definition includes

1. that which is seen, spectacle
2. a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy OR in a sleep, a vision

Sometimes the words "seen" is used before the same word vision and after

Acts 9:12 [12] And hath seen in a vision....

Acts 10:17... what this vision which he had seen

Regardless, it was a sight divinely granted (per the definition) the experience itself was real and something observed by them, and prophetic since both they spoke of Jesus decease in writing and on the mount.

Which shortly dissipated after Peter sets forth his grandios idea to build three tablernacles for them.

Is there another mass, 3 or more, vision in the bible?

 

[Verily]

Is there another mass, 3 or more, vision in the bible?

I am not sure what you mean by mass.