Heaven Bound : or No ?

[Behold]

There are vessels "fitted for destruction".....

That is everyone who is never born again, and dies. This does not include babies or small children.

So, John 3:36, says that God's Wrath is on unbelievers.. So THEY are the "vessels fitted", and waiting.

This is every unbeliever.......They are all the "vessels"... It was once you and me....... We were "fitted", but we didnt end up there...because we gave our faith in Christ to GOD..
Those "Vessels fitted, never do.. and their END, is pre-determined, based on their CHOICE to Reject Christ and die never born again.

 

[Behold]

So, when we read "vessels fitted"... that is simply another way of saying.. "Eternally Damned"..... "going to hell", then "the lake of Fire".
Its the same pre-destined outcome, that awaits every unbeliever who is currently breathing, that THEY destined upon themselves... by their unbelief..
But if they turn to Jesus, then they stop being the "vessel fitted" and become the "new creation In Christ".

That Pre-determined DAMNATION, that is defined as "vessel fitted" , is simply.. "you are going to hell, because you never trusted in Christ"...

That is all there is to it......yet the NT has... some nomenclature, connected to.. it.

Like.. "The 2nd Death".. .and "Vessels fitted for Destruction".. and "Under the Wrath of God". "Eternal Damnation"

Those are just phrases that really just mean....""""You are damned to Hell, because you chose to die in unbelief, never borm again".... .and Just like going to Heaven is the Pre-destined outcome, of FAITH IN CHRIST.. then going to Hell, as a "vessel fitted" that is the 2nd Death...is the predetermined outcome of choosing to die never born again... as a Christ Rejector.

 

[Mjh29]

@Behold

Hello again!

If I might ask a simple question - What, in your eyes, did the death of Christ actually accomplish for his people? Hopefully we can have a good discussion about it, though if you wouldn't mind (for my own sake if nothing else) would you please including the verse references from where you get your beliefs/ideas? Thank you!

 

[Behold]

@Behold

Hello again!

If I might ask a simple question - What, in your eyes, did the death of Christ actually accomplish for his people?

What do you mean by "his people"?

Are you speaking about the Jews, or the Gentiles..., as the Jews are His People, always, and The CROSS is why the "Gentiles' became God's people, and still do..

 

[Mjh29]

What do you mean by "his people"?

Are you speaking about the Jews, or the Gentiles..., as the Jews are His People, always, and The CROSS is why the "Gentiles' became God's people, and still do..

All those who are His people in spirit, all those who are considered "One in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28) - so all those for whom Christ laid down his life in his redemptive act on the Cross.

 

[Behold]

All those who are His people in spirit, all those who are considered "One in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28) - so all those for whom Christ laid down his life in his redemptive act on the Cross.

The Cross of Christ is the same accomplishment for everyone.. its how God offers eternal reconciliation to a Believer.

Its this.

2 Corinthians 5:19

The simple way to understand it......is.... 1st Adam lost eternal spiritual union with God, regarding the entire human Race.

2nd Adam... Jesus The Christ, came to restore to humanity, what 1st Adam lost for us all.

 

[Mjh29]

The Cross of Christ is the same accomplishment for everyone.. its how God offers eternal reconciliation to a Believer.

Its this.

2 Corinthians 5:19

The simple way to understand it......is.... 1st Adam lost eternal spiritual union with God, regarding the entire human Race.

2nd Adam... Jesus The Christ, came to restore to humanity, what 1st Adam lost for us all.

Hello again!
I'll be replying shortly; just wanted you to know I hadn't forgotten, and appreciate you taking the time to correspond with me!

 

[Mjh29]

Hello Again!

I'm going to try to break down my thoughts little bits at a time, and provide some references for my own!

The Cross of Christ is the same accomplishment for everyone.. its how God offers eternal reconciliation to a Believer.

I'll start my response with a bit of the logical, and then move onto the Scriptural as well to show where my thinking comes from.

Generally speaking, it is impossible that the Cross of Christ accomplished the same for all men; we need look no further than the fact that not all men are saved. For some men, it is salvation from sins (justification, sanctification, glorification), while for others the Cross accomplishes nothing. So to say that it accomplished the same thing for all men does not seem to hold true. I believe we can agree that the work of Christ ultimately ends with the salvation of many, but not all.

The real question to ask would be - when Christ died on the Cross, what was the design/plan of God; to save all men, or many men? If Christ's death on the Cross accomplished the same for ALL men, the only options are the it definitely secured salvation, from the moment of his death, for all men, or that it actually secured salvation for none.

From the Scriptures, we can see that it is impossible that Christ's death did not secure actual salvation for His people

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Matthew 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 20:28 - Even as the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life for the ransom of many.

John 6:37-39 - All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me: and him that cometh to me, I cast not away. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but his will which hath sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Romans 8:29-33 - For those which he knew before, he also predestinated to be made like to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he predestinated, them also he called, and whom he called, them also he justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be on our side, who can be against us? Who spared not his own Son, but gave him for us all to death, how shall he not with him give us all things also? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s chosen? it is God that justifieth.

John 17:9,10 - I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me: for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 10:15 - As the Father knoweth me, so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep.

---

From the Scriptures above, we can see the Christ came to ACTUALLY save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21), and that He would ACTUALLY save all those that the Father gave to him (John 6:37-39). We see the Apostle Paul saying that those He chose he also called, and justified, or actually saved, and glorified (Romans 8:29). Only those who God the Father calls actually receive the saving benefits that come with Christ's death, each benefit listed in the following verse (Romans 8:30). To be fair, he does indeed say that Christ was offered up for "us all" (Romans 8:32), Paul explained both before (Romans 8:30) and after; "us all", in the context of this passage, is clearly referencing "God's chosen" (Romans 8:33). The words of Christ Himself are more than sufficient for us, to show us the true intentions of His death; to "lose nothing" (John 6:39), or actually save" "all which He has given" (John 6:39) to Christ. Christ does not "pray for" (John 17:9), or intercede on the behalf of, "the world, but for them which thou [the Father] hast given" (John 17:9) to Him. Christ's purpose was this - "... I lay down my life for my sheep" (John 10:15).

Throughout Scriptures, we can plainly see that God's intention was never that Christ's death would benefit all men in the same way, and they certainly do not indicate an intention of making the death of Christ on the Cross the same for everyone

 

[Mjh29]

Its this.

2 Corinthians 5:19

I always appreciate when someone references Scripture for me; thank you for sharing!

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2 Corinthians 5:19 - For God was in Christ, and reconciled the world to himself, not imputing their sins unto them, and hath committed to us the word of reconciliation.

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I hope you don't mind my taking the liberty of bolding what I believe is the portion of this verse you believe speaks to the point you are making. To preface, I do not argue that, when looking at this verse, it would seem to completely null my above statements (and verses too!) However, this would mean that the Scriptures contradict themselves, and that is something I know is impossible. So the question remains, how do I reconcile this verse?

Let's take a look at the context of this verse, and compare it with other Scriptures to see what the context can tell us about this passage!

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2 Corinthians 5:16-21 - Because we thus judge, that if one be dead for all, then were all dead, and he died for all, that they which live, should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore, henceforth know we no man after the flesh, yea though we had known Christ after the flesh, yet not henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, let him be a new creature. Old things are passed away: behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, which hath reconciled us unto himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given unto us the ministry of reconciliation. For God was in Christ, and reconciled the world to himself, not imputing their sins unto them, and hath committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then are we ambassadors for Christ: as though God did beseech you through us, we pray you in Christ’s stead, that ye be reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, which knew no sin, that we should be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 6:8-11 - Wherefore, if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also with him, Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead, dieth no more: death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died once to sin: but in that he liveth, he liveth to God. Likewise think ye also, that ye are dead to sin, but are alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

---

Personally, I do not believe that I can state it in a better or more cohesive manner than was stated by John Murray

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The significant feature of this teaching of the apostle for rest is, however, that all who died in Christ rose again with him. This also Paul states explicitly. "But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more, death hath no more dominion over him" (Rom. 6:8, 9).

Just as Christ died and rose again, so all who died in him rose again in him. And when we ask the question what this rising again in Christ involves, Paul leaves us in no doubt - it is a rising again to newness of life ... (Rom 6:4, 5; 2 Cor 5:14; Col 3:3).

To die with Christ is, therefore, to die to sin and to rise with him to the life of new obedience, to live not to ourselves but to him who died for us and rose again. The inference is inevitable that those for whom Christ died are those and those only who die to sin and live to righteousness. Now it is a plain fact that not all die to sin and live in newness of life. Hence we cannot say that all men distributively died with Christ. And neither can we say that Christ died for all men, for the simple reason that all for whom Christ died also died in Christ. If we cannot say that Christ died for all men, neither can we say that the atonement is universal - it is the death of Christ for men that specifically constitutes the atonement...

In concluding our discussion of the extent of the atonement it may be well to reflect upon one or two passages which have frequently been appealed to as settling the debate in favour of universal atonement. 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15 is one of these. On two occasions in this text Paul says that Christ "died for all." But that this expression is not to be understood as distributively universal can be shown by the terms of the passage itself when interpreted in the light of Paul's teaching.

We have found already that according to Paul's teaching all for whom Christ died also died in Christ. He states that truth emphatically - "one died for all: therefore all died." But elsewhere he makes perfectly plain that those who died in Christ rise again with him (Rom 6:8). Although this latter truth is not stated in so many words in this passage, it is surely implied in the words, "he (Christ) died for all in order that those who live should not henceforth live unto themselves but unto him who died for them and rose again." ...

Hence those referred to as "those who live" must have the same extent as those embraced in the preceding clause, "he died for all." And since "those who live" do not embrace the whole human race, neither can the "all" referred to in the clause, "he died for all" embrace the entire human family. Corroboration is derived from the concluding words of [2 Cor 5:15], "but to him who died for them and rose again." Here again the death and resurrection of Christ are conjoined and the analogy of Paul's teaching in similar contexts is to the effect that those who are the beneficiaries of Christ's death are also of his resurrection and therefore of his resurrection life.

So when Paul says here, "died for them and rose again" the implication is that those for whom he died are those for whom he rose, and those for whom he rose are those who live in newness of life. In terms of Paul's teaching then and, specifically, in terms of the import of this passage we cannot interpret the "for all" of 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15 as distributively universal. So far from lending support to the doctrine of universal atonement this text does the opposite.

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Thank you so much for your time, and for having a discussion with me! I appreciate it!

 

[Behold]

Generally speaking, it is impossible that the Cross of Christ accomplished the same for all men;

The Cross accomplishes the same for everyone.

Its the only place, where Holy God and sinful man (all of us) can find eternal restoration with God..

So, if some wont believe in Jesus, then that does not change The Cross, and its Purpose and its accomplishment.

If you own a bible, and you read 2 Corn 5:19, it says that God was In Christ reconciling us all .......but that does not mean that all are reconciled.
It means that all have the same OPPORTUNITY offered BY The Cross of Christ.

See, "For God so loved the WORLD"... that Jesus died on The Cross.

The "world" is everyone".......so, its the same for everyone, as an OFFER. The Offer of The Cross of Christ is World Wide and Eternal.

 

[Behold]

The real question to ask would be - when Christ died on the Cross, what was the design/plan of God; to save all men, or many men?

Jesus, the 2nd Adam... died on the Cross to offer to the World (John 3:16), restored eternal spiritual union with God that Adam lost for us all.

 

[Behold]

Hello Again!

Romans 8:29-33 - For those which he knew before, he also predestinated to be made like to the image of his Son,

So, what you seem to be doing already is defining yourself as a Deceived Disciple of John Calvin.
If you're not a Calvinist or a Hyper Calvinist (Tulip-Head) then im sure you will let us know.

Now, your verse is not "predestining" anyone to Trust in Christ.
Your verse is Predestining those who are "IN CHRIST">. to then be predestined to be "conformed into the image"/

From the Scriptures above, we can see the Christ came to ACTUALLY save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21),

Before the Cross was raised "His People" would be the Jews.
AFter the Cross was raised this changed into "the time of the Gentiles', and this began the "Church' as it was birthed by the raising of the Cross and Jesus dying on it.

and that He would ACTUALLY save all those that the Father gave to him (John 6:37-39).

Yes, that is explaining the "Foreknowledge of God".. who are foreknown by God, before they are born.

Specifically that means that before a person is born, God already knows if they are going to Trust in Christ.

Calvin and His deceived twist that verse into.."God predestined some to be the elect".

Calvinism is a "doctrine of Devils"... Hebrews 13:9

We see the Apostle Paul saying that those He chose he also called, and justified, or actually saved, and glorified (Romans 8:29).

Those you are describing are those whom God chose 'IN CHRIST"........not to become In Christ....but because they are "IN CHRIST", then they are "Predestined". for Adoption, for the Bema Seat, for "conforming into the image of Christ".

See, the Predestining, happens ONCE the person is "IN CHRIST".. so its Subsequent to it.

"God's chosen" (Romans 8:33). The words of Christ Himself are more than sufficient for us, to show us the true intentions of His death; to "lose nothing" (John 6:39), or actually save" "all which He has given"

This is typical Calvinism you are offering us.
Nothing less, and of course, its a doctrine of devils.
See, Calvin, was a terrible bible student, and so, he failed to understand that God's Foreknowledge is not the same as "pre-destining".

So, Calvinists are mind controlled by John Calvin's Theology, and so they also can't understand that situation.

(John 6:39) to Christ. Christ does not "pray for" (John 17:9), or intercede on the behalf of, "the world, but for them which thou [the Father] hast given"

You are redundantly stating the same Calvin Theology over and over, as His Disciples are trained to do.

Keep in mind......

= God makes Christians.

= Calvin makes Calvinists.

Throughout Scriptures, we can plainly see that God's intention was never that Christ's death would benefit all men in the same way,

What you stated is Calvin's lie. Its the Cross Denying Heresy, that teaches that Jesus on The Cross is not offered to the WORLD, as John 3:16 teaches.

 

[Behold]

2 Corinthians 5:19 - For God was in Christ, and reconciled the world to himself, not imputing their sins unto them, and hath committed to us the word of reconciliation.

---

I hope you don't mind my taking the liberty of bolding what I believe is the portion of this verse you believe speaks to the point you are making. To preface, I do not argue that, when looking at this verse, it would seem to completely null my above statements (and verses too!) However, this would mean that the Scriptures contradict themselves,

No, it would only mean that your understand of the verses is based on Calvinism., according to your posts.
The verses are fine.

And neither can we say that Christ died for all men,

John 3:16 disagrees with you.

. On two occasions in this text Paul says that Christ "died for all."

Christ died for the sin of the world., Like this.

"Jesus came into the world to save sinners', and "all have sinned, there is none righteous, no not one"

"one died for all: therefore all died." But elsewhere he makes perfectly plain that those who died in Christ rise again with him (Rom 6:8). Although this latter truth is not stated in so many words in this passage,

Christ died for the sin of the world.
All, are sinners.

So when Paul says here, "died for them and rose again" the implication is that those for whom he died are those for whom he rose, and those for whom he rose are those who live in newness of life. In terms of Paul's teaching then and, specifically, in terms of the import of this passage we cannot interpret the "for all" of 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15 as distributively universal. So far from lending support to the doctrine of universal atonement this text does the opposite.

Christ died for the sin of the world.
Everyone is a sinner.....as "all have sinned".

So, this DEATH for ALL, that is the Cross of Christ, is not applied to all, but its offered to "all who will believe".

The Cross of Christ is the OFFER of eternal reconciliation to the "WORLD", (John 3:16).... and that means everyone.

 

[Mjh29]

The Cross accomplishes the same for everyone.

Its the only place, where Holy God and sinful man (all of us) can find eternal restoration with God..

So, if some wont believe in Jesus, then that does not change The Cross, and its Purpose and its accomplishment.

If you own a bible, and you read 2 Corn 5:19, it says that God was In Christ reconciling us all .......but that does not mean that all are reconciled.
It means that all have the same OPPORTUNITY offered BY The Cross of Christ.

See, "For God so loved the WORLD"... that Jesus died on The Cross.

The "world" is everyone".......so, its the same for everyone, as an OFFER. The Offer of The Cross of Christ is World Wide and Eternal.

Thanks for the response! I'll begin with this, and then move onto your other comments (my responses might be a bit sporadic for a while, as I am currently multitasking)

The problem with this lies in the fact that, through this lens, Christ's death did NOT save anyone - what is being stated is "I save myself, through my choice of whether or not to accept Christ's offer." His atonement then becomes less than absolutely fulfilling the every need for salvation, which is not at all what the Scriptures teach. If what you say is true, these passages would ALL need revised as follows.


Matthew 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall make salvation from sins available for all mankind

Matthew 20:28 - Even as the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life for the ransom of many.

Matthew 20:28 - Even as the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life for the ransom of all mankind who chose to accept this offer.

John 6:37-39 - All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me: and him that cometh to me, I cast not away. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but his will which hath sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:37-39 - All that choose my offer hall come to me: and him that cometh to me, I cast not away. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but his will which hath sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which choose me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Romans 8:29-33 - For those which he knew before, he also predestinated to be made like to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he predestinated, them also he called, and whom he called, them also he justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be on our side, who can be against us? Who spared not his own Son, but gave him for us all to death, how shall he not with him give us all things also? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s chosen? it is God that justifieth.

Romans 8:29-33 - For those which selected to accept his offer be made like to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among all mankind. Moreover, those who chose Him, them also he called, and whom he called, them also he justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be on our side, who can be against us? Who spared not his own Son, but gave him for us all to death, how shall he not with him give us all things also? It is God that justifieth.


John 17:9,10 - I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me: for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 17:9,10 - I pray for them: I pray for the world, for all mankind: for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.

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As far as your reference to the world, I'll place the Scripture reference here:

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John 3:16 - For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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Instead of writing a huge, long drawn out explanation here, I would much rather just send you a little link, that you can read at your leisure! This verse presented problems for me too when I was studying, and reading articles like this one really helped me readjust my thinking to be in line with the Scriptures, rather than my fallen inclinations!

John 3:16 and Man’s Ability to Choose God

It is ironic that in the same chapter, indeed in the same context, in which our Lord teaches the utter necessity of rebirth to even see the kingdom, let alone c

www.ligonier.org

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I will continue responding to your other posts as soon as I can! Have a blessed day today!

 

[Behold]

The problem with this lies in the fact that, through this lens, Christ's death did NOT save anyone -

Christ's shed blood and death, is the Blood Atonement...its the NEW Covenant
Its the Cross of Christ that is the offer of eternal reconciliation to God, that is all that God offers as : John 3:16

Matthew 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

"His people"..

Jews and Born Again Christians.

John 6:37-39 - All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me: and him that cometh to me,

If all you can do is cut and paste the same verses over and over, then perhaps you can find something better to do with your time.

John 17:9,10 - I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me: for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.

You verse is talking about the Apostles.........as Jesus is not yet Crucified for the sin of the world as that happens in the next Chapter

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Instead of writing a huge, long drawn out explanation here, I would much rather just send you a little link,

Im not interested in your Calvinism or your Theology.
Save your links.

 

[Mjh29]

Christ's shed blood and death, is the Blood Atonement...its the NEW Covenant
Its the Cross of Christ that is the offer of eternal reconciliation to God, that is all that God offers as : John 3:16




"His people"..

Jews and Born Again Christians.



If all you can do is cut and paste the same verses over and over, then perhaps you can find something better to do with your time.





You verse is talking about the Apostles.........as Jesus is not yet Crucified for the sin of the world as that happens in the next Chapter


Im not interested in your Calvinism or your Theology.
Save your links.

Well, if you're not going to use Scripture to defend your statements, or show the validity of them, unfortunately I have nothing further to discuss then. Thanks for the conversation, and I truly hope that someday the Word will illuminate your path, rather than preconceived notions apart from it.
Have a blessed day!

 

[Behold]

Well, if you're not going to use Scripture to defend your statements, or show the validity of them, unfortunately I have nothing further to discuss then. Thanks for the conversation, and I truly hope that someday the Word will illuminate your path, rather than preconceived notions apart from it.
Have a blessed day!

God makes CHRISTIANS.

Calvin makes CALVINISTS.

Think on that...

 

[Mjh29]

If perhaps you could give some Scriptures to prove your claims I’d be happy to!

Hoping you have a great day!

 

[Mjh29]

Keeping in mind that I will be taking them in their proper context and compare them with the rest of Scripture to ensure sound doctrine - thought I should add this!

 

[Behold]

If perhaps you could give some Scriptures to prove your claims I’d be happy to!

Stop lying.
Ive posted verses.

What i dont do is cut and paste the same verses over and over., as you do.

So, noone here is interested in your redundant verse pasting, and they dont need your deceived Hyper Calvinism, theology.

God is not a Calvinist
Jesus is not a Calvinist.
Paul is not a Calvinist

Calvinism is a Satanic theological cancer on the Body of Christ that needs to be cut out and BURNED.