Spiritual Extortion - The threat of consequence for refusing the "Free Gift" of salvation
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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From the OP.
The consequences. ???
- If you refuse the "Free Gift" of salvation
- If you walk away from the church
- If you question the church
- If you are not "faithful" until the end (whatever that means)
--- PARODY ---
Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?
Indeed.
]
The consequences. ???
- If you refuse the "Free Gift" of salvation
- If you walk away from the church
- If you question the church
- If you are not "faithful" until the end (whatever that means)
--- PARODY ---
Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?
Indeed.
]
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
We talk about salvation too narrowly. Salvation isn't JUST resurrection, or an absence of hellfire. It isn't just about the hereafter. It's also for this life and right now.
Salvation is a state of being - a state of safety during this lifetime. That safety is the result of trusting that God's directions were given for our benefit, and following them to the best of our ability safeguards against error.
So, forgetting the hereafter, the immediate consequence of refusing to stay in a state of safety, is that you won't be safe from making errors.
Then you won't have that community.
Hmm.. that's a tough one. 'The church' is a group composed of different kinds of people. Some love questions and believe they lead to growth. Others hate questions and see them as dangerous.
I think... both sides may be right... questions are dangerous, but navigating that danger is what causes the growth.
That phrase usually has to do with martyrs. Most of us won't be martyrs, so I'm not too worried about it.
1. Salvation is a free gift because we don't have to "work" for it, we just have to believe that God exists, recognize Him, and then live a life worthy of His free gift to us.
God offers this free gift to everyone.
If we believe that everyone will be saved anyway...it diminishes this free gift because it's NOT A GIFT at all.
2. Many walk away from the church. I think you mean the institution. No problem. Just don't walk away from God.
3. The church could be questioned. If the question is sincere, no problem. If it's sarcastic....then it reflects on our relationship with God and not on our relationship with a church. Of course if everyone is going to be saved anyway....what I just stated makes no sense.
4. Being faithful to the end means having a good relationship till the end.
If a husband wants to be faithful to his wife....this must be till the end.
Not for a year or two and then he starts looking around again....and thus he is not faithful.
One must decide if he wants to be faithful or not...just like a husband (or wife) has to.
If someone believes that everyone is going to be saved anyway...
your questions are moot
and my replies are moot.
As to being incinerated.....no one knows what hell will be like.
It's a word that means TO BE SEPARATED FROM GOD...Like in Luke 16 for instance....The Rich Man and Lazarus.
Yeah...sounds like it was pretty hot where the rich man ended up....but we cannot be sure....I'd say that being separated from God is hell enough.
God is a pure spirit. If we DO NOT recognize Him....He will not be able to be in our presence...or V V....we cannot be in HIS presence.
This is not to say that someone that believes everyone will end up being saved is a lost person...
This is a doctrinal belief and we all will be forgiven for our doctrinal mistakes.
What matters is this:
To know God.
To acknowledge Him.
To live accordingly.
Easy.
Agree with you WS.
But why that last sentence?
In some cases Jesus DID mean that if we're persecuted we should still believe.
But in many cases the NT states that we are to remain FAITHFUL....to the end....meaning the end of our life.
IOW,,,,do you think a person could walk away from God and His love and live however he wants to...
and still be saved??
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Sadly there are many people who reject the justice of God.
they want love, but they refuse Justice.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I don't think Steven's last question is like the others. The verse he's quoting doesn't refer to everyone's salvation - it refers to the special resurrection that was promised to martyrs.
To answer the question completely, if one was persecuted for their faith and did NOT remain faithful unto death, then they would not be part of that special resurrection. But they would still be part of the general resurrection, and they might be "saved" at that time.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Salvation is free.
For it is by GRACE (Gods unmerited love paid for by His son) we have been saved, (it is a completed action. But it is not something God will just give, it must be recieved.) through faith, this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
if it is free it is free. If it is by Grace it is not of works (the apostle paul)
The problem is no one is going to repent unless they truly trust in what God says, You can not think you are a good person. And repent. You must come to the end of yourself.
Sadly many people want a get out of Hell free card. And just in case. Say some prayer, but they have not really repented.
On the one side, they coming from a background of law. Think they can now do whatever they want. They do not have to do anything they can eat drink have sex with whoever they want and be merry..
then we have those that can not give up their pride. And still think they have to do something to save themselves. It just can not be all God. I must do something, who think and preach if they do not do certain works. Or fall into some sin that they lose salvation.
Neither is true.
But Universalism (what the OP is trying to promote) is no more true either.
again As we saw in Eph 2. It must be recieved in faith, otherwise, it is rejected
For it is by GRACE (Gods unmerited love paid for by His son) we have been saved, (it is a completed action. But it is not something God will just give, it must be recieved.) through faith, this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
if it is free it is free. If it is by Grace it is not of works (the apostle paul)
The problem is no one is going to repent unless they truly trust in what God says, You can not think you are a good person. And repent. You must come to the end of yourself.
Sadly many people want a get out of Hell free card. And just in case. Say some prayer, but they have not really repented.
On the one side, they coming from a background of law. Think they can now do whatever they want. They do not have to do anything they can eat drink have sex with whoever they want and be merry..
then we have those that can not give up their pride. And still think they have to do something to save themselves. It just can not be all God. I must do something, who think and preach if they do not do certain works. Or fall into some sin that they lose salvation.
Neither is true.
But Universalism (what the OP is trying to promote) is no more true either.
again As we saw in Eph 2. It must be recieved in faith, otherwise, it is rejected
SS.....Your parody is flawed !!
Where's Craig when you need him??
1. RECEIVE THE FREE GIFT OF LIFE.
Person no. 2 DID NOT RECEIVE THE GIFT.....
When you get a gift you have to OPEN the gift in order to enjoy it and truly receive it.
Person no. 2 did not open his gift...he did not receive his gift.
If you're trying to prove universalism in this parody....
you didn't.
In Universalism THERE IS NO FREE GIFT.....
Go back and edit!
@St. SteVen
Here's a parody for you:
PERSON &1: RECEIVE THE FREE GIFT OF LIFE.
PERSON &2: HOW DO I RECEIVE IT?
PERSON &1: NO PROBLEM....JUST BY BEING ALIVE...YOU'VE ALREADY RECEIVED IT.
PERSON &2: WOW. NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL A FREE GIFT!!
I think you'll like this one....
Here's a parody for you:
PERSON &1: RECEIVE THE FREE GIFT OF LIFE.
PERSON &2: HOW DO I RECEIVE IT?
PERSON &1: NO PROBLEM....JUST BY BEING ALIVE...YOU'VE ALREADY RECEIVED IT.
PERSON &2: WOW. NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL A FREE GIFT!!
I think you'll like this one....
The bible teaches that salvation is a free gift based on some conditions.
One is believing in Jesus.
Another is belonging to the Kingdom (here).
Another is doing good works (which some do not like to hear but is all over the NT).
If EVERYONE received salvation then it's not based on anything anymore.
The gospel becomes unnecessary (just as it is for reformed theology).
Conditions become unnecessary.
I could be mistaken....maybe I don't understand universalism well since I haven't studied it for a long time as I've studied Calvinism.
By common logic I could think that if everyone is going to be saved....
then gifts are unnecessary....EVERYONE will be receiving the gift...no conditions needed.
Do universalists believe there are no conditions in the NT?
Behold
Well-Known Member
If you refuse it, then you dont have it.
If you die without Salvation, then you are this one...
John 3:36
Each individual born again believer is the "Temple of the Holy Spirit", the "body of Christ" and the "Bride of Christ"
= This is the "Church".
Its Each Christian.. who is born again, and you can't stop being born again.
You are defining a denomination as "the church"..
Denominations are man made.
The "Church" is God made.. one Believer at a time.
God didnt Save anyone because they are "faithful".. so, being faithful or not after you are saved, has no effect on your Salvation, itself.
This is the same concept as....."keeping commandments after you are saved". "or doing good Works for God, after you are saved"..
Well, you were not keeping commandments when you were a sinner.... and God saved you, just like that... and also...you were not doing good works for God, before He saved you...
So, if those could not keep you from being saved, then then have no effect on your Salvation, after you are saved.
Thanks for your post.
There is a way to have a restored relationship with God in this life. (and in the next)
That is where the conditions apply. But to salvation itself. IMHO
By-in-large Universalists believe that salvation has nothing to do with us, or with what we do.
Only God can save. We cannot save ourselves, as you know.
The work of the atonement on our behalf is a complete work. Jesus paid the death penalty for all of humankind.
There will be an Age of Restoration, also known as the Judgement. Which is more like an evaluation and restoration.
I like this description.
Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
[
I don't understand universalism well.
Why is there a judgment?? If all will be saved.
Why an evaluation and restoration?
Will a "saved" person (born again in Christian lingo) be judged differently than an unsaved person?
What is the value of judging?
Only God can save...of course.
Jesus died for ALL OF HUMANITY....
But to buy us back from satan....
I could post some atonement theories...but I'll bet you already know them.
So Jesus bought us back so that WE CAN CHOOSE to be saved by Him INDIVIDUALLY.
This is from
1 John 1:3-4
3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
What value do these words have if everyone is going to be saved in the end?
This is in
1 John 2:2-6
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
The above states that Jesus did not die only for the saved but for the sins of the whole world.
But it goes on to say that we have come to know Him IF we keep His commandments.
What happens to those in universalist theology that DO NOT keep His commandments??
(I like the ransom theory of atonement - although they all have truth and ARE true).
Ritajanice
Born-Again
I couldn’t refuse being birthed in the Spirit, believing and faith is a gift from God..Human belief and faith has no power....supernatural faith given by God is mind blowing ,it’s Alive and Active in us,the Spirit has taken up residence in our spirit..Spirit gives birth to spirit..mind Blowing.
I couldn’t first believe in God, in my spirit, without the Holy Spirit witnessing that truth to my heart.
So refusing God, makes not one ounce of sense to me, Brother..my opinion.
Last edited:
A gift could have conditions:
A birthday has to accur
A place must be reached
A ticket purchased - it could be free
and more....
Plus, we have to go by what scripture states:
In Ephesians 2:8-9 all 3 are gifts:
GRACE
FAITH
SALVATION
They're free because we didn't do anything to earn them.
HOWEVER,
God does set conditions...which I've already stated.
For instance...we must have FAITH....
having faith is a free will choice to believe in God.
God does not force us to have faith....that would be calvinism.
He OFFERS us the free gift of faith...but we MUST CHOOSE to want it and to accept it.
Paul states that if we DENY GOD...He will also deny us.
2 Timothy 2.12
If we endure we hall also reign with Him
If we deny Him He will also deny us.
Behold
Well-Known Member
That is a cult teaching that does not use a New Testament as its source text.
See, the NT, teaches there are 2 final Judgments.
"The bema seat" that is the "Judgement seat of Christ"..... and that is not regarding SINNERS, who are Christ Rejectors.
Its a rewards banquet.. for the Born again.
And then you have in the NT... "The Great White Throne Judgment".. and that is related to the Christ rejector, never born again, whose "'name is not found in the Lamb's book of Life".
Those are the people who died , never Trusting in Christ, never born again.
Many of them died today, and they are in Hell right now, and they are going to their Eternal Judgement Rev 20:11 later.
There is no "restoration" for a Christ Rejector, after you died......never being born again., as you've already rejected it when you were on earth.
The only Restoration To God that He offers..., is the Reconciliation that is offered right now that is The Cross of Christ... as "now is the time, now is the day of Salvation"" and you dont get that offer after you DIED, willfully sinning, the unpardonable sin, of never trusting in Christ, as proven by never being born again.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Belief and faith are precious gift from God.you can freely believe in God from one’s own capacity..to truly believe in one’s spirit, that’s the supernatural gift of faith..mind Blowing.
2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.
8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;
13 So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;
14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
30 Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.
.
What does Philippians chapter 1 verse 29 mean?
In this profound passage, the Apostle Paul emphasizes a remarkable truth: both faith and the privilege of suffering for Christ are gracious gifts from God.
Philippians 1
King James Version
1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.
8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;
13 So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;
14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
30 Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.
.
What does Philippians chapter 1 verse 29 mean?
In this profound passage, the Apostle Paul emphasizes a remarkable truth: both faith and the privilege of suffering for Christ are gracious gifts from God.
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