Since God knows everything that transpires, it is deemed predestined, because He is going to allow it to occur.
You Will Endure!
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Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
1) When you find out the BIBLICAL meaning of foreknowing, not the rationally-discerned meaning, you will discover that it means, when used of God about persons, "fore-loved," because the word for "know" means a close relationship of love. Adam knew Eve, and they had a child.
2) Job 1:1 "There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil." In other words, Job was a true believer, just the way Abraham and Noah were. His faith was rooted in his hope of the coming Messiah:
Job 19:25 "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth.
Job 19:26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,
Job 19:27 whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!"
3) Behold, why do you deny the clear teaching of Scripture? By the way, fearing God has the meaning of revering or giving reverence to the Creator-God of the universe, because he is all-powerful, all-knowing, present everywhere, and eternal--and we are not! Is your God smaller than that true God, Behold?
4) I invite you to chew on these biblical truths.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
I don't see the scriptures saying anything about about God knowing they would repent. Taken at face value, i.e., without a preconceived idea, it appears that He really didn't know for sure what they'd do. The Hebrew word for "it may be" is "uwlay." It's used about a dozen times, and every time it indicates doubt.
I think that God uses words that we can understand and agree upon as to what they mean. What is it from the scriptures that makes you say God understands "repent" differently than we do? Has He changed the normal meaning of other words? Seems it would be impossible for Him to reveal Himself to us if He did so, unless He gave us some sort of scriptural addendum that outlined how He uses words. An agreed upon meaning of words is essential for effective communication.
BTW, On the whole, I do think Calvin was a brilliant theologian and wonderful child of God. But as I said before, none of us gets everything right.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
I don't see the scriptures saying anything about about God knowing they would repent. Taken at face value, i.e., without a preconceived idea, it appears that He really didn't know for sure what they'd do. The Hebrew word for "it may be" is "uwlay." It's used about a dozen times, and every time it indicates doubt.
I think that God uses words that we can understand and agree upon as to what they mean. What is it from the scriptures that makes you say God understands "repent" differently than we do? Has He changed the normal meaning of other words? Seems it would be impossible for Him to reveal Himself to us if He did so, unless He gave us some sort of scriptural addendum that outlined how He uses words. An agreed upon meaning of words is essential for effective communication.
BTW, On the whole, I do think Calvin was a brilliant theologian and wonderful child of God. But as I said before, none of us gets everything right.
My understanding of the KJV's translation "repent" for God is that the more-accurate translation is "relent" like several modern translations. In other words, when Nineveh repented and turned from their wicked ways due to Jonah's preaching, God changed from applying his justice to his mercy. The same is true when Moses interceded for Israel in the desert. God showed his mercy instead of his justice, which he showed a lot more slowly during the remaining 40 years.I don't see the scriptures saying anything about about God knowing they would repent. Taken at face value, i.e., without a preconceived idea, it appears that He really didn't know for sure what they'd do. The Hebrew word for "it may be" is "uwlay." It's used about a dozen times, and every time it indicates doubt.
I think that God uses words that we can understand and agree upon as to what they mean. What is it from the scriptures that makes you say God understands "repent" differently than we do? Has He changed the normal meaning of other words? Seems it would be impossible for Him to reveal Himself to us if He did so, unless He gave us some sort of scriptural addendum that outlined how He uses words. An agreed upon meaning of words is essential for effective communication.
BTW, On the whole, I do think Calvin was a brilliant theologian and wonderful child of God. But as I said before, none of us gets everything right.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
I think "repent" and "relent" are synonymy of each other. Both indicate a change in intended action.
In any case, it's a good thing God ultimately decided to show us mercy instead of what we justly deserved!
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Behold
Well-Known Member
"God's Foreknowledge" is... to always know all things that are going to happen, next.
So, lying Calvinists who are Hyper Calvinist... who are brain locked by TULIP>.. teach this as......"because God knows everything, that means he pre-destines it".
Now, is it an IQ issue, that keeps the Calvinist from not understanding that "Fore KNOWING".. is not the same as "Pre-Destining". ??????
This is not difficult to understand yet every Calvinists, does not understand it..
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
No, Paul teaches that those whom God fore-loved, he also predestined (Romans 8:29).
Behold
Well-Known Member
Typical Calvinism SELLER..... trying to deceive people, by only posting half of the verse.
So, you are trying to create a false reading of the verse by doing that..
Yet the verse teaches not that you are predestined to be born again.. or predestined to initially believe...
Paul's verse says that the born again are predestined........"TO BE CONFORMED.. into the IMAGE ofChrist"
So, the person has to be born again first, "IN CHRIST">. which then engages the predestination to "be conformed into the image of Christ".
And that Transforming is the FINAL Transforming "when we are CHANGED"... "In the Twinkling of an EYE"<..
That's the : RAPTURE.
So, @Bruce-Leiter You've spent so many years, under the deception of Calvinism, being used to do the same to real Christians and to those who never became one.
That's a very sad reality.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
No, we are conformed to the image of Christ now in principle but not yet completely in practice like all of the Christian life (2 Corinthians 3:18 and
Eph 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
Eph 4:20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!—
Eph 4:21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus,
Eph 4:22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,
Eph 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
If you aren't in Christ's image and being transformed into it more and more, you have very little hope of the future.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Calvin's Theology is not true.
You've spent a lot of years trying to sell it.
And here you are again standing up for : Calvinism, pretending its "Bible'.
Listen,
we are born again "NOW".. "in Christ"... and that enlists some wonderful things that are "PREDESTINED">... for LATER.
"Adoption"
"Conformed into the Image of Christ"
"Bema Seat"
And, the born again "in Christ" are also predestined to receive : their eternal "inheritance that is reserved in Heaven for them, that shall never fade away".
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
I completely agree with you, Behold, but the question is when were they predestined, I think. Ephesians 1 says that it was before God made anything and anyone. That was when he "fore-loved" them too, according to Romans 8.
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Behold
Well-Known Member
No, the question is not "when were they predestined".
See, you wrote part of a bible verse to try to use it deceptively, to teach that a person is predestined to be born again, or to be predestined to initially (forced) "irresistible grace"... to trust in Christ.
So, i showed the READER and you, that the entire verse is teaching that once you are "IN CHRIST"... then many things are pre-destined later.
So, the "pre-destining" is not the initial SALVATION, or Believing.
The "Pre-destined" is.. because you are now "IN CHRIST">. here is what is pre-destined to happen, SUBSEQUENT (because and AFTER) you are now "IN Christ".
Notice the Bema seat @Bruce-Leiter , and other Calvinists, and Readers.
The BEMA SEAT, is the Judgement seat of Christ......that is predestined, once you are "IN CHRIST".
This is not going to happen, UNTIL, you are "IN CHRIST".. .as that is WHY its now "predestined" to happen when you personally meet Jesus The Lord.
And its the same with the "conformed into the Image of Christ", that happens when you get your NEW BODY, during the Rapture.
"behold are you saying that Salvation is not the pre-destined...., but its what happens LATER, after initial Salvation, that is what is "predestined".
A.) Correct.
Calvin however has the believing and the born again, as the "predestined" and that is just more of his asinine heretical theology.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
I've never been sure about Romans 8:29-30, but the way you put it makes a lot of sense. I still want to think about it, but off the top of my head, I think you are right.
Calvin (along with Luther) did shed a lot of light on the scriptures. For sure, he made a vast improvement over the RC interpretation, but I don't think he got predestination exactly right.
Behold
Well-Known Member
God accepts OUR Faith, to then give us "the GIFT of Salvation".
And now we are 'IN CHRIST"......as "born...again".
And once there........we are "PREDESTINED" For many wonderful things...
Calvin had this obsession with trying to pre-destine the "foreknowledge of God"..
So, that is why he "predestines" your faith... your believing, and he also did this to The Cross itself., and that is the ultra Satanic part of John Calvinism.
This is a very demented "circular reasoning" issue... that Calvin was lost inside of, in his mind,..... once he decided that "What God Foreknew"... God must have Predestined.., So, Calvin predestined GRACE, and The Cross, and a person's Faith in Christ., ect, ect..
What Calvin could not GRASP< is that because GOD always knows (Foreknowledge) what is always going to happen NEXT.... (Foreknowledge) is not the same as God pre-destining everything.
So, what you have is Calvin redefining "God's Foreknowledge" as "pre-destining"...
And once you see that........then Calvinism crashes and burns into the stinking pile of incredible HERESY, that it always was and will always remain... A man made "doctrine of devils'.... Hebrews 13:9
Rich R
Well-Known Member
Good points about Calvin's thinking. But I don't see foreknowledge as meaning God knows every move that people will make. He knows the final outcome (a new heaven and earth), but the exact route getting there depends on people's response to God's will. But whatever people do, God can work with it to bring about the final goal. His resourcefulness in that regard is virtually infinite. He'd be hard to beat in a game chess. Actually impossible to beat! I wrote a bit more in post #15 & #23 in this thread.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
We will always keep enduring because we have been Born Of God’s seed.
The Holy Spirit witnesses that truth to our heart/ spirit, all day every day.
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
The Holy Spirit witnesses that truth to our heart/ spirit, all day every day.
1 Peter 1
King James Version
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Behold
Well-Known Member
God knows all your thoughts. (before you thought them)
God sees faith, in your Heart, and He accepts it as OUR "Faith is counted by God".
God knows what you are thinking right now as you are reading what im typing.
God knows before you were born, what you are going to do next.
"Fore-Knowledge".... is knowledge of all things, BEFORE .. .they happen next.
Even a good deal of the Bible is "fore-Knowledge" of God..
Consider that the NT shows us that there is more to come.......there is the Rapture, the Trib, the 2nd Advent, the Millennial Reign.....
All that is being SHOWN........because God knows its going to Happen....so, its revealed already in the Scriptures, as God's Foreknowledge.
And that is not the bible pre-destining.....its the NT = REVEALING what is in God's "Foreknowledge".
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Rich R
Well-Known Member
I think you are right about God knowing the rapture, tribulation, and the millennial reign. I said as much in my last post to you. He knows the final outcome. But He still works with people as His representatives on the earth and people can be a bit finicky. Nonetheless, as you said, God will make it happen.
There are many examples of God not knowing exactly what some persons would do. I listed a few of them in either post #15 or #23 in this thread.
I understand that God knows what we are presently thinking at any given moment. But knowing what we will think in the future is something altogether different.
I looked for some verses that clearly say God knows our every thought before we think them, but couldn't find any. Admittedly, I only spent 15 minutes or so, so I certainly didn't do a thorough job of it. I assume you know of some, so it would save me some time if you pointed me in the right direction. Thanks in advance!
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