How can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinism ?

[GodsGrace]

Well done for attempting an answer, shame that it is as vague as your first accusation.
When have I posted here what you accuse me of?

As a Christian I believe what the Bible teaches. Mmmh we both will claim that!

As Genesis teaches Adam sinned and as a result we are all tainted/marred by that rebellion.
Romans 3:23 All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

Jesus, the Eternal Son of God came to teach and by his sacrifice to redeem those who will believe in him.
John3:16-18.

Where we differ is that you believe someone can turn to God without any Devine intervention in there life.
While I believe that a willing slave to sin and the devil will not turn to God without the Spirit first working in them.

I'm not going to re hash the verse that show that God knew, preordained, predestined etc etc.
You know those verse as well as those that imply that salvation is all man's choice.

I prefer a theology that gives God the Glory, rather than one that glorifies man's choice.

Windmill....
First of all...EVERY Christian believes that there is divine intervention for a person to become saved.
Just not the KIND of intervention as Calvinists believe.

Do you or do you not believe that GOD CHOOSES who will be saved and who will go to hell?

Do you or do you not believe that God gives TO EACH PERSON ENOUGH GRACE to be able to know Him?

You say that God knew, preordained, etc etc.

OK.

1. What did God know?
2. What did God preordain?
3. What comes first.....salvation or faith?

Are you reformed or not?
Maybe we're not understanding each other.
If you reply to the above,,,,maybe your position will be made clear...

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
For instance...you say man has no free will but Jesus stated that WE WERE NOT WILLING....
John 5:40
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Why would Jesus state that WILLINGNESS is required to go to Him IF God determines everything?

NONE of mankind is willing to go to Christ because the things of the Spirit are foolishness to the carnal mind of mankind.

Paul also says this about carnal mankind:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

In this condition in which Christ created mankind, no one can understand God or even have a desire to seek Him out. In fact, mankind's carnal mind only has hatred for God.

We all believe Romans 3:10....when we are born we are doomed unless we come to have faith in Jesus.
We all believe that the things of the spirit are foolishness to the carnal mind.
Paul says it this way:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

He clearly states in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that the natural man cannot comprehend the things of God.
In fact, atheists make fun of what we believe.

The question is: HOW do we become washed? HOW do we become sanctified? And Justified?

Ephesians cannot be more clear...
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We are saved by God's grace THROUGH FAITH....

It even gives the ordo salutis:
We are saved through faith.
Faith saves us.

So first comes faith and then comes salvation.

There are many other verses that explain how we are saved.
I've already posted them.

Here are a few more:
John 1:12
12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

God must be RECEIVED by us....He will not force His love on us....
because love must be given freely or it's not worth anything....HOW MUCH MORE is this true for God?!

John 3:21
21But whoever does what is true comes to the light,

Action by man....the man who does what is true COMES TO THE LIGHT.
Never any action that is forced by God.

You're going to have to show a verse that states that God CHOOSES WHOM HE WILL SAVE.
You won't find one...

To correct this spiritual condition within mankind, Christ will come to a person (at a time of His choosing and because of His GRACE/unmerited favor) and freely give them the Spirit. With the Spirit, the person's heart and mind will be changed. After it is, they will (100% of the time) "willingly" accept Christ has their Lord and Savior when presented the Gospel. This is the only way a person can accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Christ must act first and give the person the Spirit.

You put WILLINGLY in quotation marks and we both know why you did this.
Compatibilist free will is NO FREE WILL AT ALL.

IF God FORCED His will on you and you THINK you chose....
then you do not have any kind of will...
you are what some will refer to as a robot....
a machine that does what it does because it is programmed to.
Hardly pleasing to an Almighty God, I'd say.

Some apostate believers have asked this type of question to me before: Why would Christ tell us to come to Him or to choose Him if no one has the spiritual ability to do it?

And it's a good question.
Would you tell a one year old to climb the stairs?
No...you wouldn't.
So the question is more than valid...

The answer is the same reason for why Christ gave the Old Covenant of Law to the Nation of Israel. Christ knew that the nation was not capable of following the law and would fail. When a person who tries to follow law realizes that they cannot do it, it will be their schoolmaster to lead them to Christ who will change them from within so that they can follow the law.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

So God was playing games with Moses?
God made a bi-lateral covenant with the Israelites.
They failed.
God knew they would fail but HE DID NOT MAKE THEM FAIL.
Why was God mad at the golden calf?
Didn't HE predestinate the Israelites to make and worship the golden calf?
Well then..WHY would He be mad at them for doing what HE made them do from the beginning?

Because this is how Christ works within mankind, Christ begins the process of salvation by giving a person the Early Rain of the Spirit. This small amount of the Spirit will give them a "measure of faith" so that they can believe and accept Him as Lord. But since the Early Rain does not heal their spiritual blindness or destroy their carnality, they will remain an unconverted "babe".

Then why give them this early rain as you call it?
IF God knows it will not hear their spiritual blindness??

Can it be so that THEY can believe or not,,,,just as Ephesians 2:8 teaches?
Can it be because they have the free will to either accept or reject God because He desires TRUE LOVE...
and not a love that is programmed into the human?


part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

@FaithWillDo

part 2 of 2

In this condition, Satan will come to the babe and deceive them with his false gospel. His false gospel teaches the babe to mix their own works with faith. When they do this mixing, they are committing the one and only sin that leads to death. This is how Satan kills the babes and builds his apostate church.

I gave you MANY verses about how we're required to do good works.
I'm amazed that you don't believe the New Testament!

These verses about good works were in my post no. 289:

Matthew 5:16
16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 25:40
40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

2 Corinthians 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Galatians 6:9
9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1 Timothy 6:18
18 They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

Titus 2:7
7Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works

While the babe is in the apostate church, they will believe that they are following Christ and are saved - but they are not. But because they believe they are, scripture says that they are dwelling in peace and safety and are not ashamed of what they are (a man of sin). And because they believe that they have a free will ability to guide their own pathway in life, they make themselves out to be equal with God who alone has a free will ability. This is the "worse than the first" spiritual condition that Christ says will happen to all new believers shortly after they have received the Early Rain of the Spirit (Mat 12:43-45).

We should make sure that WE ourselves are not in the apostate church.
Any denomination that was invented 1,500 years after Jesus died would be very suspect in my opinion.

For the babes who are one of the few Elect,

HOW does one become one of the elect?

Christ will return to them and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Since the Latter Rain comes with strength and power, the babe's spiritual blindness will be healed. With this new ability to see, they will realize that they have been under Satan's deceptions all along. This is when they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred when the spirit of anti-Christ entered them. After they see the A of D, judgment will fall to complete their conversion (Mat 24:15-16).

After a person understands all this truth, it will be very humbling for them. They will then start approaching Christ solely by faith, trusting only in Him (not themselves) to provide for all their needs.

Actually Faith....EVERY Christian is depending on Jesus.
He hung on the cross....not us individually.

You asked:
But WHAT is worked according to God's will? The verse says that "all things" are worked by God.

Does God save persons based SOLELY on His will? Yes, Christ is the Savior and His "will" is to save all mankind. But in this age, Christ's "will" is to only save the Elect who have been chosen for an early salvation (first fruits unto God).

Does everything happen based solely on God's will? Yes, all things happen in this creation because it is God's "will" for them to happen.

Or does God teach us HOW to be saved? Yes, Christ teaches us many things and gives us the ability to do those things - but we have to wait on the Lord to act in our life. We do not get to decide when He acts. Mankind has nothing that they can contribute towards their own salvation. During the salvation process, Christ will teach us to totally trust in Him for all our needs. This is faith.

What?
Man MUST contribute FAITH to his own salvation.
Could you please post some verses supporting the above beliefs that seem very particular to you.
That would be appreciated.

I am wont to reply to your opinions...
Please use scripture.

As for your other comments on the things that a person must do, this is the answer:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

OF COURSE! God working in us is what makes us have the strength to do what He would want us to do.
Philippians 4-13
13I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

You wont' get any argument from any Christian.
But this does not answer the basic questions I've been asking you.
Please try to answer those using scripture.

Man's supposed free will ability is a lie from Satan. Christ alone directs our steps and gives us our "will" to "do of His good pleasure". From a person's point of view, they believe that they are the one who is directing their own steps. But they are not. When Christ is ready for a person to believe that truth, He will give them the necessary faith to do it. He provides for all our needs.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

Scripture please. The above is your opinion.
Please post some verses that state that man has no free will when it's clear that the NT speaks to our willingness to do:

Philemon 14: Paul says this to his friend about a slave
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

Looks like Paul clearly believed in free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
To prove YOUR point, you'll have to post some verses that state what you believe:
That God CHOSE EVERYONE from the foundation of the world.
I find no such scripture and I don't believe you will either.

No, God does not choose everyone to be saved in this age.

I'm not a universalist. The problem is that you're unable to reply to my scripture.

Scripture says that most of mankind is not even "called to be saints" but "many" are. Then, from that group of many, a "few" have been chosen to actually become saints. These people are the Elect who will be the "heirs" of Abraham and who will receive the inheritance. They are blessed solely because it was God's "will" to bless them and He blesses them to suit His own purposes.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Here are more verses concerning the Elect:

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I've already answered the above.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

PURPOSE.

2Tim 1:9 who did save us, and did call with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages…

HIS PURPOSE.
His purpose was established before the time of the ages....
PURPOSE.

NOT WHO or WHO WILL NOT be chosen.

The balance of mankind who were not chosen to be one of the Elect will still be saved in the final age, but they will not receive the rewards that the Elect received.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he (the Elect) shall receive a reward (inheritance). 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The inheritance that the heirs will receive is "life during the ages" rather than receiving "life" at the end of the final age when most of mankind will receive it. The heirs who have are given this early "life" will then reign with Christ over the earth (the balance of mankind) during the final age to help Christ bring in the final harvest of mankind. This is the purpose for saving the Elect in this age.

You haven't replied...
Are you a universalist?
If so, I'd like to stop this conversation since it would be apparent that your belief system is confused...
You sound calvinist...
but Calvin was certainly NOT a universalist.

I'd appreciate a reply from you.

You said:
You believe works is a satanic false gospel?

Yes, it is. Satan's way is the crooked way which is based upon the works of man. The works of man are fifthly rags. The Old Covenant of Law (based on man's works) is the crooked way. It is the same way that seems right to mankind but it leads to death.

Christ's way is the straight way and it is based on faith. This faith is what gives a person the ability to trust Christ to do all the necessary works of our salvation. When a person is clothed in the works of Christ, they are wearing clothes of righteousness (white robes). Nothing of a person's salvation is left for a person to perform. When a person make a confession of faith, or repents of their works, or does good works, it is Christ who is doing them through the person. He is the cause and is who gives the person their "will" to do of His good pleasure.

After Christ gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will remain a babe who is carnally minded. The carnal mind of the person will prefer the crooked way of works because it seems right to them. Christ teaches this truth in the verse below:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Well, I actually gave you MANY verses on works.
Because you THINK it's satanic means that you DO NOT ACCEPT THE NT AS TRUTH.

Jesus taught works,
Paul taught works,
ALL the NT writers taught good works.

Please make your position known now since I don't have much time to spend on here speaking.
I think you're a bit confused as to what you belief....really.

The old wine represents the Old Covenant which is based on the works of man. This is what all unconverted babes who only have the Early Rain of the Spirit prefer. Only after Christ gives a babe the Latter Rain of the Spirit will they prefer the New Wine of the New Covenant which is based solely on the works of Christ. In this age though, only the chosen Elect will receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Those who are called to be saints but who are not chosen to be saints, will die in their sins and be told by Christ that He never knew them. This happens by no fault of their own - they simply were not chosen to be saved in the early harvest of mankind. They will have to wait for the main harvest which happens at year's end (final age).

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

Joe

The NC does not ABOLISH the Mosaic Covenant...
it makes it better or a new covenant would not have been required....Hebrews.
This has nothing to do with FREE WILL
or
HOW God chooses those who will be saved and those that are passed over.

Everyone Knows Jesus is the firstfruit...
THIS is not what I'm discussing here.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Matthew 7:23......is very plain and simple to understand.
Jesus taught for over 3 years.

Those that hear His teachings and DOES THEM will be a wise man.
Those that hear His teachings and DOES NOT DO THEM will be a foolish man.

Joe,,,,the above warnings require ACTIONS on OUR PART.
Jesus is plainly telling us that we have to practice what He taught....
WE HAVE TO
WE

Please show me in the Matthew 7:23.....verses WHERE it states anything other than that we are to obey Jesus and DO WHAT HE TAUGHT.

You eisegete verses.....you read into them what you would like them to say.
BUT....they do NOT state what you've been told they do.

Follow Jesus...
Not man.

Dear GodsGrace,
The verses you quoted say NOTHING about how what causes a person "will and do". You are adding to God's Word when you ASSUME that mankind has the ability to do those things from a free will ability.

Scripture teaches it truth "here a little, and there a little" (Isa 28:9-12). When a scripture is silent on something, you must find the answer elsewhere in scripture. Don't assume anything.

When we look elsewhere in scripture, we find that it is Christ who is the cause of everything that mankind believes and does. He directs our paths, mankind does not.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

These verses above teach that the cause of why mankind (including believers) does anything in this world comes from the spiritual work that God performs within mankind. God is Spirit and He has no trouble at all directing hearts and minds to do His "will".

Your belief in "free will" is a lie and is not taught in scripture.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

You quote verses, and actually believe that because you have cut and pasted it, or some teaching that you cut and paste.. you have proven something.

The Fact is, you've proven that this all you have to offer.

You are the end product of a very strange belief system, that could not explain the Blood Atonement, unless you Google it, cut and paste it, and then you still wont understand it, but you will pretend that you do, @FaithWillDo

Dear Behold,
I learned a while back that scripture holds little value for you. If scripture doesn't say what you want it to say, you won't accept it.

Also, everything that I write on the forum comes from me and no one else. I have a website (shown below my member name) with volumes of things that I have written over the past 15 years or so. Sometimes I will copy portions of my writings if they apply to what I want to say.

There is no point in having discussions with you anymore since you won't except what scripture teaches. If you are not receiving "truth" from God's Word, there is nothing I can do to help you - which is my only objective for writing to you. Someday the Lord will change your heart and mind to be receptive to what His Word teaches. Until that day arrives, there is no point in posting to you.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

@FaithWillDo

part 2 of 2


I gave you MANY verses about how we're required to do good works.
I'm amazed that you don't believe the New Testament!

These verses about good works were in my post no. 289:

Matthew 5:16
16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 25:40
40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

2 Corinthians 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Galatians 6:9
9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1 Timothy 6:18
18 They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

Titus 2:7
7Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works


We should make sure that WE ourselves are not in the apostate church.
Any denomination that was invented 1,500 years after Jesus died would be very suspect in my opinion.


HOW does one become one of the elect?


Actually Faith....EVERY Christian is depending on Jesus.
He hung on the cross....not us individually.

What?
Man MUST contribute FAITH to his own salvation.
Could you please post some verses supporting the above beliefs that seem very particular to you.
That would be appreciated.

I am wont to reply to your opinions...
Please use scripture.



OF COURSE! God working in us is what makes us have the strength to do what He would want us to do.
Philippians 4-13
13I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

You wont' get any argument from any Christian.
But this does not answer the basic questions I've been asking you.
Please try to answer those using scripture.


Scripture please. The above is your opinion.
Please post some verses that state that man has no free will when it's clear that the NT speaks to our willingness to do:

Philemon 14: Paul says this to his friend about a slave
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

Looks like Paul clearly believed in free will.

Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
I gave you MANY verses about how we're required to do good works.
I'm amazed that you don't believe the New Testament!

You must not be reading what I write. It is Christ who causes us to "will and do of His good pleasure". When we do "good works", it is Christ who is doing them through us. Why is that so difficult for you to understand and accept? I know why. It is because Christ has not given you that ability.

You said:
HOW does one become one of the elect?

Surely you must know that the Elect are chosen by God from the foundation of the world. If you weren't chosen then, you will never be one of the Elect.

You said:
Actually Faith....EVERY Christian is depending on Jesus.
He hung on the cross....not us individually.

A "babe" will remain carnally minded after they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. In this condition, they can understand the physical work that Christ did under the Old Covenant which led Him to the cross (Christ and Him crucified, 1Cor 2:2). But the spiritual work that Christ is doing now under the New Covenant will remain mostly concealed from a babe's understanding. This happens because Christ does not heal the spiritual blindness of babes.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect who have both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they (babes who draw milk) might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit on the Damascus Road. This is when Paul was given a measure of faith and became a babe in Christ. This is also when Paul submitted to Christ's authority (accepted Christ as Lord). Paul's blindness at that time represented his spiritual blindness which kept the truth of the New Covenant concealed from his understanding. After remaining blind and unable to eat or drink for three days, Christ came to Paul a second time and poured out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Only then did the scales fall off Paul's eyes. With Paul's spiritual blindness healed, he was then able to eat "meat" (truth of the New Covenant). This is the pathway that Christ causes all His Elect to travel to their salvation. They have no free will ability to travel a different path.

You said:
Man MUST contribute FAITH to his own salvation.
Could you please post some verses supporting the above beliefs that seem very particular to you.

Scripture says that mankind does not have any faith of their own. Faith is a gift from God and comes to a person when they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. I have already showed you many scriptures. Showing you more will not help.

You said:
OF COURSE! God working in us is what makes us have the strength to do what He would want us to do.
Philippians 4-13
13I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

You wont' get any argument from any Christian.
But this does not answer the basic questions I've been asking you.
Please try to answer those using scripture.

I have presented you more than a dozen scriptures which teach how Christ works within mankind to accomplish His "will". Mankind has no freedom or power to believe or act differently than they do. You just can't accept what those scriptures teach.

I read the rest of your responses and my replies would just be the same as before. You just aren't able to receive the truth taught in the scriptures that I have presented.

There is nothing I can do to help you "see". Only Christ is the healer of the blind - I have no such ability.

Joe

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I would never join any group that gets their beliefs using scripture to dismiss and contradict other scripture. Most do not know Calvin was a Roman Catholic lawyer that became a theologian, and the apple didn’t fall far from the tree. The gospel was given and paid for by Jesus not the Apostle Paul. Paul taught the very same gospel as Jesus. The good news is even though we have all sinned against God if you will believe and place your faith in Jesus repent and follow Jesus you will be saved just as Paul told the jailer what he had to do be saved was believe.

Have you read the Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin? Your opinions will change once you learn from the original source instead of listening to what people are saying about Calvin.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Calvin it seems was double-minded. On one hand he said that in John 3:16 the world meant the entire human race. On the other hand he said that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation. And that is exactly what we find in the Westminster Confession. But both cannot be true. If God offers salvation to all of humanity then he cannot contradict Himself and choose some for salvation. Indeed Christ plainly refuted that nonsense.

JOHN 3: GOD WANTS THE WORLD OF HUMANITY TO BE SAVED
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Now these are the actual words of Christ. "Whosoever" means anyone and everyone without exception. And Five Point Calvinism contradicts them. Calvinism substitutes "the elect" for "whosoever". But election is never for salvation but always for glorification and perfection (Rom 8:29,30).

You only quote verses 14-17 but neglect the following context, which says, "
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

And you fail to mention the following passage:
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Paul clearly says that the saints he is writing to have been chosen and predestined by God before creation began. Most Calvinists, including yours truly, say that Paul teaches that God predestines believers but lets unbelievers remain in their sins, which is what they want. Why he doesn't save everyone, which he could do, is a mystery, because he hasn't revealed his good reason.

 

[marks]

Why he doesn't save everyone, which he could do, is a mystery, because he hasn't revealed his good reason.

Except He has revealed Himself to us, He desires that all be saved, commands that all repent, that we believe - all commands, given generally. He invites us to come, assures us that any who call upon Him will be saved.

And in these things He is fully true. Jesus is the truth. God is not a man that He would lie.

His commands, His exhortations, His invitations, all true, all real, no secret caveats, nothing disengenuous, simply a God Who is true offering salvation to His creation.

God is true. It's men who are liars.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
The verses you quoted say NOTHING about how what causes a person "will and do". You are adding to God's Word when you ASSUME that mankind has the ability to do those things from a free will ability.

Scripture teaches it truth "here a little, and there a little" (Isa 28:9-12). When a scripture is silent on something, you must find the answer elsewhere in scripture. Don't assume anything.

When we look elsewhere in scripture, we find that it is Christ who is the cause of everything that mankind believes and does. He directs our paths, mankind does not.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

These verses above teach that the cause of why mankind (including believers) does anything in this world comes from the spiritual work that God performs within mankind. God is Spirit and He has no trouble at all directing hearts and minds to do His "will".

Your belief in "free will" is a lie and is not taught in scripture.

Joe

Joe,,,,I've already gone over the verses you've posted so you're just repeating since, really, you've nothing new to add.

IF you're correct in what you state above...after all the scripture I've posted ....
WE HAVE A REAL PROBLEM.....

It means that the bible has a VERY problematic conflict in what it states.
Yes, your theology causes MANY conflicts which cannot be explained away.

I've explained EACH AND EVERY one of the verses you posted with how Christianity understands them to be.
YOU instead have only kept repeating the same verses over and over WITHOUT giving an explanation as to HOW I'M wrong with my eisegesis.

This is because my theology removes conflict....yours CAUSES conflict.

Would you care to explain this:

Joshua 24:14-15
14“Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

The Israelites are told to serve in sincerity and truth...
TO SERVE.....as if they had a choice.

They are told TO CHOOSE whom they will serve...
CHOOSE....requires a free will decision between two alternatives.

Put that together with:

Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Romans states that we PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we wish to obey.
This denotes a free will choice between two alternatives.


Now, can you explain away the two verses above using your theology, as I have done with YOUR verses presented to me?
Or are you just going to tell me I'm wrong and there's no free will?

A little here and a little there won't do Faith.
Looking elsewhere in scripture won't do because YOU'RE CREATING A CONFLICT IN THE BIBLE ITSELF.

So..
How about exegeting MY verses to you?
If you CANNOT,,,,it means that we DO have free will.

I explained your verses to you without looking for anything else but what YOU posted.
Verse ping pong is not valuable in a discussion such as this.

Please explain the two above verses that I've posted.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
I gave you MANY verses about how we're required to do good works.
I'm amazed that you don't believe the New Testament!

You must not be reading what I write. It is Christ who causes us to "will and do of His good pleasure". When we do "good works", it is Christ who is doing them through us. Why is that so difficult for you to understand and accept? I know why. It is because Christ has not given you that ability.

NO Faith....
YOU said that I believe a false gospel....that I believe in works and that this is a false gospel.
So I posted MANY verses showing that good works are necessary in the Christian faith.
YOU did not post who gives the strength....only that good works are a different gospel.

If you're going to go down this very intellectually dishonest road...then our convo is over.

I AGREED with you that it's God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all combined to give us the strength to do God's will.

YOU were debating whether or not good works are necessary and how we're following a different gospel if we do them...
I do believe I showed how you're incorrect about this idea.

You said:
HOW does one become one of the elect?

Surely you must know that the Elect are chosen by God from the foundation of the world. If you weren't chosen then, you will never be one of the Elect.

Again,,,your opinion is very nice...but it's only an opinion.

I gave many verses as to HOW we are saved. I could repeat them if necessary.
Here are 2:
John 3:16
Acts 16:31

Please post some scripture that supports your view that God chose us from the beginning of the world...
I've already debunked a few of these....you could try again....
You won't come up with any BECAUSE IT'S NOT TRUE.....

God is a just God. The reformed do not believe that God is just.
Here's why:
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Let's go over what JUST means since I think the reformed have a skewed idea of it.
It simply means. GIVING TO EACH PERSON WHAT THEY DESERVE.

Does YOUR God give to each person what they deserve?
Or did He, without any reason at all, decide before the beginning of the world who would be saved and who would be damned AND
based on NOTHING.

God gives to each person the opportunity to be saved...
The reformed God does not.

The reformed are following a different gospel....
Not the rest of Christianity.

You said:
Actually Faith....EVERY Christian is depending on Jesus.
He hung on the cross....not us individually.

A "babe" will remain carnally minded after they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. In this condition, they can understand the physical work that Christ did under the Old Covenant which led Him to the cross (Christ and Him crucified, 1Cor 2:2). But the spiritual work that Christ is doing now under the New Covenant will remain mostly concealed from a babe's understanding. This happens because Christ does not heal the spiritual blindness of babes.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect who have both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they (babes who draw milk) might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit on the Damascus Road. This is when Paul was given a measure of faith and became a babe in Christ. This is also when Paul submitted to Christ's authority (accepted Christ as Lord). Paul's blindness at that time represented his spiritual blindness which kept the truth of the New Covenant concealed from his understanding. After remaining blind and unable to eat or drink for three days, Christ came to Paul a second time and poured out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Only then did the scales fall off Paul's eyes. With Paul's spiritual blindness healed, he was then able to eat "meat" (truth of the New Covenant). This is the pathway that Christ causes all His Elect to travel to their salvation. They have no free will ability to travel a different path.

First of all, a measure of faith means something totally different than what is being discussed on this thread.
And Paul was a unique case...
Do you know anybody that was blinded by Jesus on their way to somewhere...
And why the long stories?
Just stick to verses and how you understand them.

We ALL have to have the scales fall from our eyes...
But not on our way to Damascus.

You said:
Man MUST contribute FAITH to his own salvation.
Could you please post some verses supporting the above beliefs that seem very particular to you.

Scripture says that mankind does not have any faith of their own. Faith is a gift from God and comes to a person when they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. I have already showed you many scriptures. Showing you more will not help.

Where is the scripture?
Showing me and others MIGHT help,,,
but I doubt it since there is nothing in the NT to support your idea that it is NOT faith that saves.
The NT is chock full of verses that state that it is faith that saves.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is the king of them all and I've already posted it at least 2X and you have not debunked it
because it CANNOT be debunked.

You said:
OF COURSE! God working in us is what makes us have the strength to do what He would want us to do.
Philippians 4-13
13I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

You wont' get any argument from any Christian.
But this does not answer the basic questions I've been asking you.
Please try to answer those using scripture.

I have presented you more than a dozen scriptures which teach how Christ works within mankind to accomplish His "will". Mankind has no freedom or power to believe or act differently than they do. You just can't accept what those scriptures teach.

Why do you bother to present verses teaching theology ALL Christians agree with??

You need to post verses that prove your idea that man has NO FREE WILL.
You need to post verses that show that we CANNOT ACT DIFFERENTLY than what God wills.

If you would just exegete my verses instead of making comments,,,,you would have already done this.
Problem is that you CANNOT....since your ideology is not what the NT teaches.

I read the rest of your responses and my replies would just be the same as before. You just aren't able to receive the truth taught in the scriptures that I have presented.

There is nothing I can do to help you "see". Only Christ is the healer of the blind - I have no such ability.

Joe

Agreed. You do not have the capability to teach to anyone what is not presented in the New Testament.

I, OTOH, find it extremely easy.
BECAUSE IT'S THE TRUTH....

Follow JESUS....
NOT A MAN CALLED JOHN CALVIN.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe,,,,I've already gone over the verses you've posted so you're just repeating since, really, you've nothing new to add.

Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
I've explained EACH AND EVERY one of the verses you posted with how Christianity understands them to be.
YOU instead have only kept repeating the same verses over and over WITHOUT giving an explanation as to HOW I'M wrong with my eisegesis.

All of what you call "Christianity" is apostate and has been in that condition since the end of the 1st Century. Only converted believers who come out of the apostate church are the true church. And like with Christ, this world does not understand who they are.

The apostate church is made up of the "many" who have been "called to be saints". These apostate believers are spiritually blind "babes" who are under the deceptions of Satan. This is where the blind led the blind.

As for your "eisegesis", it is not how scripture teaches a person to understand scripture. Scripture is very specific on how to understand the spiritual teachings of Christ. But even if a person follows this prescribed way of learning truth, they still must have their spiritual blindness healed by Christ so that can transition from a carnal way of understanding to a spiritual way of understanding.

You said:
This is because my theology removes conflict....yours CAUSES conflict.

My understanding of scripture is supported by all scripture and has no conflicts. Your understanding is contradicted by scripture over and over again.

Consider your belief in free will. These verses contradict your belief:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

You also believe that Christ will not accomplish the mission that His Father gave Him:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Your belief is contradicted by numerous scriptures:

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Both of the above scriptures define what "all" means. They both say that everyone who has died in Adam will be the same "all" who will be saved by Christ. That cannot possibly leave out anyone.

Just how would scripture have to state it that Christ will save all mankind for you to believe it?

Here are more scriptures:

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Since the Father sent Christ to save the world, why do you believe that Christ is going to fail? Is it because most of mankind's "will" is just too strong for Christ to overcome?

Not according to scripture:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The god whom you are following is weak and is greatly hindered by mankind's "will" which you believe is almost impossible to sway. But the true God is all-powerful and reigns supreme over mankind. Whatever my God desires, He will accomplish it. Mankind has ZERO ability to resist God's "will".

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

You said:
Please explain the two above verses that I've posted.

Joshua 24:14-15
14“Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

I can find many, many verses that say for mankind to "do this" or to "choose that". That does not mean that mankind has a free will ability. You are adding free will to those verses when the verse itself is silent the cause of a person's actions or choices.

Even computers make choices but no one would believe that a computer has a free will ability to make those choices. This is not a hard concept to understand.

Here is the definition of free will: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

God's Word says over and over again that God intervenes in mankind's "will". When you claim that your beliefs & actions come from your own supposed "free will" ability, you are stealing from Christ.

Does the verse below not mean anything to you?

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

This verse is spiritual and is referring to mankind's heart and mind. It is not talking about mankind's physical appearance. When Christ wants a person to "choose" whom to serve, He will cause it to happen. For now, Christ is causing most people (all but the converted Elect) to serve Satan because it is His "will" for them to do so right now. But after Christ's purpose for causing mankind to make this choice of serving Satan is satisfied, Christ will change a person's heart & mind to serve Him. Christ does this so that mankind will gain a knowledge of good and evil - something that God wants all His children to have. Why? Because without a knowledge of evil, mankind cannot have a true knowledge of good. Then with a true knowledge of good, mankind can see God for who He is.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

What mankind is experiencing in this creation is how God produces His offspring. In the end, all mankind will be converted from being children of the devil to being children of God. To do this work of conversion, the Father sent Christ into the world to do it. This is the meaning of life that eludes most people.

Joe

 

[Behold]

Dear Behold,
I learned a while back that scripture holds little value for you.

The reason you posted that false innuendo, is because you are a dishonest person.
See, you can't post any evidence to support your lie.......All you can post is where i corrected your lies., that you teach, often by misusing verses.

That's what i learned about you, a while back, and you'll do it again, as that is your reason to be on any "christian" forum, @FaithWillDo.

You do not understand God's Gift of Salvation.
You do not understand "Justification by Faith" that is the Blood Atonement, even tho you have the word "faith" in your alt-name.
You cannot explain why the born again is become "The righteousness of God in Christ".

Now you can, go and look those up, (Google - Wikipedia)... and cut and paste, and say....>>>"see i know all that".

But you dont.
You could not explain "The Gospel of the Grace of God" to a rock, because that Gospel, is not yours.
But you can go to Google and look it up and cut and paste it........sure.... you can do that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
I've explained EACH AND EVERY one of the verses you posted with how Christianity understands them to be.
YOU instead have only kept repeating the same verses over and over WITHOUT giving an explanation as to HOW I'M wrong with my eisegesis.

All of what you call "Christianity" is apostate and has been in that condition since the end of the 1st Century. Only converted believers who come out of the apostate church are the true church. And like with Christ, this world does not understand who they are.

The apostate church is made up of the "many" who have been "called to be saints". These apostate believers are spiritually blind "babes" who are under the deceptions of Satan. This is where the blind led the blind.

As for your "eisegesis", it is not how scripture teaches a person to understand scripture. Scripture is very specific on how to understand the spiritual teachings of Christ. But even if a person follows this prescribed way of learning truth, they still must have their spiritual blindness healed by Christ so that can transition from a carnal way of understanding to a spiritual way of understanding.

You said:
This is because my theology removes conflict....yours CAUSES conflict.

My understanding of scripture is supported by all scripture and has no conflicts. Your understanding is contradicted by scripture over and over again.

Consider your belief in free will. These verses contradict your belief:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

You also believe that Christ will not accomplish the mission that His Father gave Him:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Your belief is contradicted by numerous scriptures:

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Both of the above scriptures define what "all" means. They both say that everyone who has died in Adam will be the same "all" who will be saved by Christ. That cannot possibly leave out anyone.

Just how would scripture have to state it that Christ will save all mankind for you to believe it?

Here are more scriptures:

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Since the Father sent Christ to save the world, why do you believe that Christ is going to fail? Is it because most of mankind's "will" is just too strong for Christ to overcome?

Not according to scripture:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The god whom you are following is weak and is greatly hindered by mankind's "will" which you believe is almost impossible to sway. But the true God is all-powerful and reigns supreme over mankind. Whatever my God desires, He will accomplish it. Mankind has ZERO ability to resist God's "will".

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

You said:
Please explain the two above verses that I've posted.

Joshua 24:14-15
14“Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

I can find many, many verses that say for mankind to "do this" or to "choose that". That does not mean that mankind has a free will ability. You are adding free will to those verses when the verse itself is silent the cause of a person's actions or choices.

Even computers make choices but no one would believe that a computer has a free will ability to make those choices. This is not a hard concept to understand.

Here is the definition of free will: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

God's Word says over and over again that God intervenes in mankind's "will". When you claim that your beliefs & actions come from your own supposed "free will" ability, you are stealing from Christ.

Does the verse below not mean anything to you?

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

This verse is spiritual and is referring to mankind's heart and mind. It is not talking about mankind's physical appearance. When Christ wants a person to "choose" whom to serve, He will cause it to happen. For now, Christ is causing most people (all but the converted Elect) to serve Satan because it is His "will" for them to do so right now. But after Christ's purpose for causing mankind to make this choice of serving Satan is satisfied, Christ will change a person's heart & mind to serve Him. Christ does this so that mankind will gain a knowledge of good and evil - something that God wants all His children to have. Why? Because without a knowledge of evil, mankind cannot have a true knowledge of good. Then with a true knowledge of good, mankind can see God for who He is.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

What mankind is experiencing in this creation is how God produces His offspring. In the end, all mankind will be converted from being children of the devil to being children of God. To do this work of conversion, the Father sent Christ into the world to do it. This is the meaning of life that eludes most people.

Joe

You're a universalist.
I thought you were a Calvinist.
It's been interesting speaking to someone that cannot identify himself properly.

 

[GodsGrace]

The reason you posted that false innuendo, is because you are a dishonest person.
See, you can't post any evidence to support your lie.......All you can post is where i corrected your lies., that you teach, often by misusing verses.

That's what i learned about you, a while back, and you'll do it again, as that is your reason to be on any "christian" forum, @FaithWillDo.

You do not understand God's Gift of Salvation.
You do not understand "Justification by Faith" that is the Blood Atonement, even tho you have the word "faith" in your alt-name.
You cannot explain why the born again is become "The righteousness of God in Christ".

Now you can, go and look those up, (Google - Wikipedia)... and cut and paste, and say....>>>"see i know all that".

But you dont.
You could not explain "The Gospel of the Grace of God" to a rock, because that Gospel, is not yours.
But you can go to Google and look it up and cut and paste it........sure.... you can do that.

Behold....some persons are so confused as to Christianity, that they don't even speak the same language so as to have a meaningful conversation. You and I may not agree on a doctrine but we know the same teachings that are in the NT.

Some don't even understand what those teachings are and post verses that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I agree with all of the above statements you've made.
(aintcha happy?).lol

 

[Behold]

Behold....some persons are so confused as to Christianity, that they don't even speak the same language so as to have a meaningful conversation. You and I may not agree on a doctrine but we know the same teachings that are in the NT.

Some don't even understand what those teachings are and post verses that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I agree with all of the above statements you've made.
(aintcha happy?).lol

This one we are addressing, is very confused.
And He is completely dedicated to his theological confusion.

Most of the time, what he posts, .. similar to Episkops.........sounds like Greek talking Chinese.

Its just.>>"what are talking about" ?!!??!!.. and if you ask them....>>>"who taught you that". ."what is your ?Church"..

You get "crickets".. Silence....>NO ANSWER as they dont want you to know.

I remember when Epi was telling me over and over..>>>>"The CROSS is not about Forgiveness"....

So, christian forums are so inundated with anything and everything except simple NT Truth.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Except He has revealed Himself to us, He desires that all be saved, commands that all repent, that we believe - all commands, given generally. He invites us to come, assures us that any who call upon Him will be saved.

And in these things He is fully true. Jesus is the truth. God is not a man that He would lie.

His commands, His exhortations, His invitations, all true, all real, no secret caveats, nothing disengenuous, simply a God Who is true offering salvation to His creation.

God is true. It's men who are liars.

Much love!

You are correct in all that you say, but it's human self-centeredness (sin) that prevents people from accepting the genuine offer.

God could give everyone the new birth, which is his free gift, but he doesn't. We can't give it to ourselves, since we are born dead to God and slaves of Satan (see Ephesians 2:1-3). It's God who resurrects us to new life through faith by grace (Ephesians 2:4-9), not us. The result is good works which God has prepared for us to do (Ephesians 2:10).

Yes, we accept his gift, but he draws us to himself (John_6:44--"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."), so we have nothing at all to brag about.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I would never join any group that gets their beliefs using scripture to dismiss and contradict other scripture. Most do not know Calvin was a Roman Catholic lawyer that became a theologian, and the apple didn’t fall far from the tree. The gospel was given and paid for by Jesus not the Apostle Paul. Paul taught the very same gospel as Jesus. The good news is even though we have all sinned against God if you will believe and place your faith in Jesus repent and follow Jesus you will be saved just as Paul told the jailer what he had to do be saved was believe.

YOU titled the OP "How can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinism"? Well I do not know most of Calvins teachings, but teh five points are believed because they are firmly entrenched in the bible.

If you are afraid of the boogey man of being a former RCC. YOu have to toss most of the reformers out the door.

RCC rejects the five points of Calvinism. that should be a clue.

Concerning the five points, they are the only alternative to the five points of Jacob Armenios, which the members of the Calvinist church responded to at the Council of Dort!

If you care to look you will see that the RCC is far more closer to Arminianism that to the five points of Calvin as these five biblical points have been dubbed!

 

[Behold]

Yes, we accept his gift, but he draws us to himself (John_6:44--"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

That's very true.
And when this truth that God Draws us all to Himself.... becomes..>>"no, He only draws the pre-destined, pre-chosen", then the Devil's lie has arrived to try to deny the Cross.

Here is The Cross........

JESUS SAID... "If i be lifted up (on The Cross), then, I will DRAW (HolySpirit)= ALL (men) (everyone) to MYSELF"..

There is Satanic THEOLOGY that denies that TRUTH, as it teaches that Jesus does not DRAW "ALL" but that He only calls the "predestine, pre-chosen" before they were born.

That is a SATANIC Lie, a "doctrine of Devils"/