How can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinism ?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2023
1,454
219
63
64
Fort Collins, CO, USA
www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You must be one of those cherry pickers that does not accept the whole counsel of God...

2 Thessalonians 1:7,8
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Dear Dan Clarkston,
You don't understand the process of conversion that Christ will perform within mankind to save us.

All mankind is condemned already because of sin. The penalty of sin is death (not eternal torment in literal fire as some believe). But because of God's grace, Christ will freely give every person a new birth prior to their destruction in the Lake of Fire (a symbol for judgment).

As for what 2Thes 1:7-8 teaches; none of carnal and sinful mankind (children of the devil) know Christ. Only the children of God know Christ and have faith in Him.

The death and destruction that you see in scripture, which occurs during the Day of the Lord, is showing the destruction of the old vessel. This destruction is necessary so that the new vessel can be created. This is conversion.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.


One of the primary reasons that apostate believers don't believe that Christ can save all mankind is because they have added man's "works" to the Gospel. The mixing of "works" with faith comes from Satan's "another gospel" that he teaches via the spirit of anti-Christ. It is by this false gospel that Satan devoured the "babes" in the church near the end of the 1st century. Nothing has changed in the church since that time.

The true Gospel of Christ requires no works from mankind. Even a person's faith and repentance are gifts from God. If He didn't give those gifts to a person, they would never have them.

Salvation is by promise and is a free gift. When Christ is ready to save a person, He will come to them and do His spiritual work within them. This will change their heart and mind so that they will willingly accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For any person to have faith, they must have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Apostate believers deny the truth that this verse above teaches. They believe that a person's faith comes from their supposed free will ability to have it. This is not what scripture teaches.

Joe
 

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2023
1,454
219
63
64
Fort Collins, CO, USA
www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Faith,,,I don't turn away from scripture because I'm CERTAIN that it states what every other Christian denomination believes it does except for the reformed.....to say nothing of the fact that this idea did not even exist before the 5th century when a converted Manechaen decided to bring some of his gnostic ideas along with him to Christianity....your hero....Augustine.

You're going to have to pick 3 or maybe 4 to which I could respond.
I'm not here to play verse ping pong.
The NT would be nice since Jesus is the ULTIMATE revelation of God.
What did Jesus have to say about free will?

Will respond when you give a REASONABLE reply to which a person CAN respond.
Dear God'sGrace,
So presenting you scripture is not a reasonable reply?

Like most apostate believers, your beliefs do not come from God's Word. They come from the reasonings of the carnal mind and from the teachings of the apostate church which came into this world near end of the 1st century.

As for free will, there are ZERO verses that teach it. The many verses that I presented you all contradict that false belief.

The definition of free will is to have an ability to make choices that are free from divine intervention. Even a child can read the verses that I posted and see that God there is divine intervention in the choices that mankind makes.

Joe
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Dear God'sGrace,
So presenting you scripture is not a reasonable reply?

Like most apostate believers, your beliefs do not come from God's Word. They come from the reasonings of the carnal mind and from the teachings of the apostate church which came into this world near end of the 1st century.

As for free will, there are ZERO verses that teach it. The many verses that I presented you all contradict that false belief.

The definition of free will is to have an ability to make choices that are free from divine intervention. Even a child can read the verses that I posted and see that God there is divine intervention in the choices that mankind makes.

Joe
Joe, you apparently didn't read my post to you very well.

I'll pick 2 or 3 verses myself and reply to the ones I choose - since you don't care to.

Did you really think I could reply to SO MANY verses?
This shows you do not care to have a good conversation.

However, I will be back later on to show that you are following the teachings of a MAN...
and not those of JESUS, or any of the other NT writers.

Soon...
 

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2023
1,454
219
63
64
Fort Collins, CO, USA
www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Joe, you apparently didn't read my post to you very well.

I'll pick 2 or 3 verses myself and reply to the ones I choose - since you don't care to.

Did you really think I could reply to SO MANY verses?
This shows you do not care to have a good conversation.

However, I will be back later on to show that you are following the teachings of a MAN...
and not those of JESUS, or any of the other NT writers.

Soon...
Dear GodsGrace,
The verses I posted all teach that God intervenes in the "will" and "decisions" of mankind. You can treat them as "one" since they teach the same truth.

Most people will try to prove that mankind has a free will by showing scriptures that tell mankind to make a choice. But making a choice is not free will. Making choices that are free from divine intervention is. All the scriptures that I posted teach that God intervenes in man's "will" and in the choices that they make. Mankind absolutely does not have a free will.

There really is nothing you can do or change about what those scriptures I posted teach. The fact is, you just do not have enough faith to believe them. It can't be anything else because the scriptures themselves are not hard to understand.

Joe
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Dear GodsGrace,
The verses I posted all teach that God intervenes in the "will" and "decisions" of mankind. You can treat them as "one" since they teach the same truth.

Most people will try to prove that mankind has a free will by showing scriptures that tell mankind to make a choice. But making a choice is not free will. Making choices that are free from divine intervention is. All the scriptures that I posted teach that God intervenes in man's "will" and in the choices that they make. Mankind absolutely does not have a free will.

There really is nothing you can do or change about what those scriptures I posted teach. The fact is, you just do not have enough faith to believe them. It can't be anything else because the scriptures themselves are not hard to understand.

Joe
Yes Faith...I know....only the reformed have the true faith and know the true God.
And it's very nice of you to judge me...I thought that was up to God to do, but frankly,
it doesn't bother me in the least. It just shows how proudful you are.

And Jesus said in Matthew 5....blessed are the humble.

But, let's take a look at your verses:

I chose ALL of the NT verses - Your statement is that they prove we do not have free will.
My replies will be in green.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Where is free will, or the lack thereof, mentioned in the above verse?

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Where is free will mentioned in the verse above?

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Indeed. Only those wearing the correct wedding garment will be chosen.
JESUS is the correct wedding garment.
You'll notice that the King came in to LOOK AT THE GUESTS and he saw there a man that did not have a wedding garment.
The King asked him how he got in.

Faith....does God NOT KNOW to whom he gave wedding garments?
He has to look to see WHO IS WEARING A WEDDING GARMENT?

Yes. This is correct because God will CHOOSE according to who has chosen to believe and WEAR THE WEDDING GARMENT.

If YOU were correct in your theology, the King would have KNOWN that one man was not properly dressed because HE, the KING (God) did not dress him properly.

This is why reformed faith makes no sense.


John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
WHO is ordained Faith?

Are YOU?
No.
In the above verse Jesus is speaking to the Apostles...

HE PICKED THE APOSTLES.


John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
The above verse is referring to Isaiah 6:10. An inverse statement is being used to show that a rebellious generation was hardened against God.....Who hardened Pharoah? Himself AND God....God does give up on persons....see Romans 1:26


John is comparing Jesus' mission to Isaiah's mission....rebellious hearts will be wiped out.

Those hardened had the free will to become hard of heart...
IF God were doing the hardening...WHY would God even question this rebellious generation.
Did God not MAKE that generation rebellious??
Does God not even know what HE predestinates?


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Absence of free will is not mentioned.

TO THOSE THAT BELIEVE God give the right to be called children of God.
NOT DUE TO OUR WORKS...the will of man....

but due to the gift of God, faith, TO THOSE THAT BELIEVE. (yes, first come belief and then faith).

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
You conveniently left our verses 8:28 and 29...

Verse 28 states that God calls us according to HIS PURPOSE.
Verse 29 states that God FOREKNEW who would be saved --- and THOSE He predestined.

You'll find that predestination IS IN THE BIBLE....
But...it always refers to either PURPOSE or HOW one is saved.



Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

I'll be happy to discuss Romans 9, but not here.

Looks like you may not know that Romans 9, 10 and 11 is speaking of corporate salvation through Israel.
A totally different topic..

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Correct. Only those born again can understand spiritual matters.
Nothing here about free will or even HOW one comes to be born again.


1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
Amen! Nothing here about free will or HOW a man comes to believe in God.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
The NT never lies.

God has chosen us IN HIM,,,,which corresponds to HOW, as I mentioned before.
God chooses us to be BLAMELESS....
And to be adopted as Children...etc.

No mention of free will but only of HOW and PURPOSE....

It is God's GOOD PLEASURE to save us through our Lord Jesus.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
There goes that word PURPOSE again.
Looks like the NT makes a lot of sense when it's read properly.

And, yes, it is God's will to be saved in a certain manner and to fulfill HIS purpose in our lives.


Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
2Tim 1:9 who did save us, and did call with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages…
There goes that word PURPOSE again.
It's wonderful how it all makes sense.


So, there you have it Faith.
Nothing about free will being abolished.
Nothing about God choosing anyone for salvation but only for PURPOSE OR METHOD ----HOW.

Do you care to explain each verse using reformed theology?
 

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2023
1,454
219
63
64
Fort Collins, CO, USA
www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes Faith...I know....only the reformed have the true faith and know the true God.
And it's very nice of you to judge me...I thought that was up to God to do, but frankly,
it doesn't bother me in the least. It just shows how proudful you are.

And Jesus said in Matthew 5....blessed are the humble.

But, let's take a look at your verses:

I chose ALL of the NT verses - Your statement is that they prove we do not have free will.
My replies will be in green.
Dear GodsGrace,
Your reasoning concerning what these scriptures teach makes no logical sense.

I will look at a few of your comments:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
There goes that word PURPOSE again.
Looks like the NT makes a lot of sense when it's read properly.

Since God works all things after the counsel of His own "will", mankind cannot possibly have a free will to as they please.

When Christ is ready to save a person, He will save them because it is God's 'will" for them to be saved. The person has no choice in the matter because after Christ has freely given them the Spirit, they can no longer reject Christ.

The verse below applies:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Amen! Nothing here about free will or HOW a man comes to believe in God.

Your comment is quite amazing. After Christ gives a person the Spirit, do they have a free will do accept or reject Christ? Not according to what this verse says. After Christ gives a person the Spirit, they can no longer call Jesus accursed. And before Christ gives them the Spirit, they will have no ability to call Jesus Lord. Where is the person's free will ability to decide for themselves? They have none.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
WHO is ordained Faith?
Are YOU?
No.
In the above verse Jesus is speaking to the Apostles...

HE PICKED THE APOSTLES.

All the Elect (100% of them) have been chosen for salvation in this age and that decision was made by God from the foundation of the world. Christ will not save anyone else in this age and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Christ is the Savior and He does the saving. Because of mankind's carnal spiritual condition which everyone has from birth, the things of the Spirit will always be foolishness to them. They have no free will ability to believe differently unless Christ gives them the Spirit.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
The NT never lies.
God has chosen us IN HIM,,,,which corresponds to HOW, as I mentioned before.
God chooses us to be BLAMELESS....
And to be adopted as Children...etc.


Because the Elect are chosen, Christ will come to them and do everything that is necessary for them to be converted. The person's "will" plays no part in it because their "will" is directed by God who works all things after the counsel of His own "will". This is the very definition of NOT having a free will ability.

You are following and teaching Satan's false gospel which mixes works with faith. When a believer accepts this false gospel, they will fall from grace - and it happens because it is God's "will" for that person. They have no free will ability to avoid it.

2Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The "unrighteousness" that the verse mentions occurs when a believer mixes works with faith. The believer mixes works with faith because God has sent them a strong delusion (spirit of anti-Christ) which causes them to accept the lie of Satan's false gospel. These apostate believers have no ability to avoid it. However, they think that they can because of their belief in their own free will abilities. When their time arrives to come out of Satan's deceptions, they will be humbled.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Joe
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Dear GodsGrace,
Your reasoning concerning what these scriptures teach makes no logical sense.

I will look at a few of your comments:

Thanks Joe...I appreciate a good conversation.
I just want to say that many times I've said that the reformed doctrines make no logical sense....
Of course we both believe we're correct...but, I must say, that reformed theology causes a lot of conflict within scripture.
For instance...you say man has no free will but Jesus stated that WE WERE NOT WILLING....
John 5:40
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.


Why would Jesus state that WILLINGNESS is required to go to Him IF God determines everything??

I'll address your comments.


Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

There goes that word PURPOSE again.
Looks like the NT makes a lot of sense when it's read properly.

Since God works all things after the counsel of His own "will", mankind cannot possibly have a free will to as they please.

But WHAT is worked according to God's will? This is the question here.
Does God save persons based SOLELY on His will?
Does everything happen based solely on God's will?
Or does God teach us HOW to be saved?

The NT is replete with verses that show HOW a person becomes saved.
WHOEVER BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED.......John 3:16
BELIEVE AND YOU WILL BE SAVED......Acts 16:31
BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT JESUS WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.....Romans 9:10
EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.....Romans 10:13
BE BAPTIZED AND YOU WILL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.....Acts 2:38
JESUS PREACHED TO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON BECAUSE THEY DID NOT FORMERLY OBEY......1 Peter 3:18
WHY WAIT? RISE AND BE BAPTIZED FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN, CALLING ON HIS NAME.....Acts 22:16


There are many more.
Each verse requires an action from US based on God's instructions on HOW to be saved.
NOWHERE in the NT does it state that we are to do nothing except to wait for God to proclaim us saved because of His will.
We are instructed as to HOW to be saved.

If that were true, the NT would be totally unreliable and God would just be deceiving us by giving incorrect information.
When Christ is ready to save a person, He will save them because it is God's 'will" for them to be saved. The person has no choice in the matter because after Christ has freely given them the Spirit, they can no longer reject Christ.

The verse below applies:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Amen! Nothing here about free will or HOW a man comes to believe in God.


Your comment is quite amazing. After Christ gives a person the Spirit, do they have a free will do accept or reject Christ? Not according to what this verse says. After Christ gives a person the Spirit, they can no longer call Jesus accursed. And before Christ gives them the Spirit, they will have no ability to call Jesus Lord. Where is the person's free will ability to decide for themselves? They have none.
You've done nothing here but repeat what I've stated.
You haven't shown free will to be denied in 1 Cor 12:3
It only states what happens before and after salvation...
It does NOT state HOW a person becomes saved.

Instead I HAVE stated this in my reply just above.



John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

WHO is ordained Faith?
Are YOU?
No.
In the above verse Jesus is speaking to the Apostles...

HE PICKED THE APOSTLES.

All the Elect (100% of them) have been chosen for salvation in this age and that decision was made by God from the foundation of the world.
Sorry Joe....John's chapter is Jesus speaking about how He CHOSE THE APOSTLES. You don't have to trust me....read up on some commentaries. Not that I like commentaries, but sometimes they do come in handy.

To prove YOUR point, you'll have to post some verses that state what you believe:
That God CHOSE EVERYONE from the foundation of the world.
I find no such scripture and I don't believe you will either.

Christ will not save anyone else in this age and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Christ is the Savior and He does the saving. Because of mankind's carnal spiritual condition which everyone has from birth, the things of the Spirit will always be foolishness to them. They have no free will ability to believe differently unless Christ gives them the Spirit.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

The NT never lies.
God has chosen us IN HIM,,,,which corresponds to HOW, as I mentioned before.
God chooses us to be BLAMELESS....
And to be adopted as Children...etc.
My reply in green applies to your statement in black.
Of course Christ does the saving,,,EVERY Christian believes this. He is our LORD and SAVIOR.
Your reply that God chooses those that are saved BASED ON NOTHING AT ALL, is not supported by scripture.

Please support your statements with scripture.



Because the Elect are chosen, Christ will come to them and do everything that is necessary for them to be converted. The person's "will" plays no part in it because their "will" is directed by God who works all things after the counsel of His own "will". This is the very definition of NOT having a free will ability.
Verses please.


You are following and teaching Satan's false gospel which mixes works with faith. When a believer accepts this false gospel, they will fall from grace - and it happens because it is God's "will" for that person. They have no free will ability to avoid it.

2Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The "unrighteousness" that the verse mentions occurs when a believer mixes works with faith. The believer mixes works with faith because God has sent them a strong delusion (spirit of anti-Christ) which causes them to accept the lie of Satan's false gospel. These apostate believers have no ability to avoid it. However, they think that they can because of their belief in their own free will abilities. When their time arrives to come out of Satan's deceptions, they will be humbled.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Joe
You believe works is a satanic false gospel?
Please explain how you would explain the following verses which teach that works ARE NECESSARY when a person is saved.

Matthew 5:16
16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 25:40
40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

2 Corinthians 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Galatians 6:9
9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1 Timothy 6:18
18 They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

Titus 2:7
7Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works



There are MANY more verses on how we are to do good works.
This is what Jesus and the other writers of the NT taught.
We must accept all of the NT teachings....not just the ones that SEEM to agree with our belief system.

Do you just discard all of the above verses because you believe in some kind of gospel that is not represented in these verses?
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Please provide the instances where I have done this.
Let's see:

EVERY time you post that GOD CHOOSES WHO WILL BE SAVED BASED ON NOTHING BUT THE PLEASURE OF HIS WILL.
As if God is PLEASED that He passes over some to go to hell.
SHOW THIS FROM SCRIPTURE PLEASE.



EVERY time you state that some are not chosen....the reprobate...
BASED ON NOTHING.
Show this from scripture please since God is a JUST God and, apparently, no Calvinist has yet to reply to my question:
WHAT DOES JUST MEAN?
And they never will because to state what JUST means will be to reject Calvinism.


EVERY time you state that some are going to hell BASED ON NOTHING THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT
because God is a God of mercy and not a God that passes over some creatures HE has created
JUST TO SEND THEM TO HELL for no apparent reason other than it is HIS GOOD PLEASURE...
dumping evil onto God and His actions.

These are the instances Windmill.
 

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,087
7,434
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Gods word, is always best posted in its full context.

Not verses pulled from the context , to support what another member believes, also applies to me.


John 5​

King James Version​

5 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life
.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
 
Last edited:

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2023
1,454
219
63
64
Fort Collins, CO, USA
www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thanks Joe...I appreciate a good conversation.
Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
For instance...you say man has no free will but Jesus stated that WE WERE NOT WILLING....
John 5:40
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.


Why would Jesus state that WILLINGNESS is required to go to Him IF God determines everything??


NONE of mankind is willing to go to Christ because the things of the Spirit are foolishness to the carnal mind of mankind.

Paul also says this about carnal mankind:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


In this condition in which Christ created mankind, no one can understand God or even have a desire to seek Him out. In fact, mankind's carnal mind only has hatred for God.

To correct this spiritual condition within mankind, Christ will come to a person (at a time of His choosing and because of His GRACE/unmerited favor) and freely give them the Spirit. With the Spirit, the person's heart and mind will be changed. After it is, they will (100% of the time) "willingly" accept Christ has their Lord and Savior when presented the Gospel. This is the only way a person can accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Christ must act first and give the person the Spirit.

Some apostate believers have asked this type of question to me before: Why would Christ tell us to come to Him or to choose Him if no one has the spiritual ability to do it?

The answer is the same reason for why Christ gave the Old Covenant of Law to the Nation of Israel. Christ knew that the nation was not capable of following the law and would fail. When a person who tries to follow law realizes that they cannot do it, it will be their schoolmaster to lead them to Christ who will change them from within so that they can follow the law.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Because this is how Christ works within mankind, Christ begins the process of salvation by giving a person the Early Rain of the Spirit. This small amount of the Spirit will give them a "measure of faith" so that they can believe and accept Him as Lord. But since the Early Rain does not heal their spiritual blindness or destroy their carnality, they will remain an unconverted "babe". In this condition, Satan will come to the babe and deceive them with his false gospel. His false gospel teaches the babe to mix their own works with faith. When they do this mixing, they are committing the one and only sin that leads to death. This is how Satan kills the babes and builds his apostate church.

While the babe is in the apostate church, they will believe that they are following Christ and are saved - but they are not. But because they believe they are, scripture says that they are dwelling in peace and safety and are not ashamed of what they are (a man of sin). And because they believe that they have a free will ability to guide their own pathway in life, they make themselves out to be equal with God who alone has a free will ability. This is the "worse than the first" spiritual condition that Christ says will happen to all new believers shortly after they have received the Early Rain of the Spirit (Mat 12:43-45).

For the babes who are one of the few Elect, Christ will return to them and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Since the Latter Rain comes with strength and power, the babe's spiritual blindness will be healed. With this new ability to see, they will realize that they have been under Satan's deceptions all along. This is when they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred when the spirit of anti-Christ entered them. After they see the A of D, judgment will fall to complete their conversion (Mat 24:15-16).

After a person understands all this truth, it will be very humbling for them. They will then start approaching Christ solely by faith, trusting only in Him (not themselves) to provide for all their needs.

You asked:
But WHAT is worked according to God's will? The verse says that "all things" are worked by God.

Does God save persons based SOLELY on His will?
Yes, Christ is the Savior and His "will" is to save all mankind. But in this age, Christ's "will" is to only save the Elect who have been chosen for an early salvation (first fruits unto God).

Does everything happen based solely on God's will? Yes, all things happen in this creation because it is God's "will" for them to happen.

Or does God teach us HOW to be saved? Yes, Christ teaches us many things and gives us the ability to do those things - but we have to wait on the Lord to act in our life. We do not get to decide when He acts. Mankind has nothing that they can contribute towards their own salvation. During the salvation process, Christ will teach us to totally trust in Him for all our needs. This is faith.

As for your other comments on the things that a person must do, this is the answer:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Man's supposed free will ability is a lie from Satan. Christ alone directs our steps and gives us our "will" to "do of His good pleasure". From a person's point of view, they believe that they are the one who is directing their own steps. But they are not. When Christ is ready for a person to believe that truth, He will give them the necessary faith to do it. He provides for all our needs.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...
 
Last edited:

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2023
1,454
219
63
64
Fort Collins, CO, USA
www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thanks Joe...I appreciate a good conversation.
CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
To prove YOUR point, you'll have to post some verses that state what you believe:
That God CHOSE EVERYONE from the foundation of the world.
I find no such scripture and I don't believe you will either.


No, God does not choose everyone to be saved in this age. Scripture says that most of mankind is not even "called to be saints" but "many" are. Then, from that group of many, a "few" have been chosen to actually become saints. These people are the Elect who will be the "heirs" of Abraham and who will receive the inheritance. They are blessed solely because it was God's "will" to bless them and He blesses them to suit His own purposes.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Here are more verses concerning the Elect:

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

2Tim 1:9 who did save us, and did call with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages


The balance of mankind who were not chosen to be one of the Elect will still be saved in the final age, but they will not receive the rewards that the Elect received.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he (the Elect) shall receive a reward (inheritance). 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The inheritance that the heirs will receive is "life during the ages" rather than receiving "life" at the end of the final age when most of mankind will receive it. The heirs who have are given this early "life" will then reign with Christ over the earth (the balance of mankind) during the final age to help Christ bring in the final harvest of mankind. This is the purpose for saving the Elect in this age.

You said:
You believe works is a satanic false gospel?

Yes, it is. Satan's way is the crooked way which is based upon the works of man. The works of man are fifthly rags. The Old Covenant of Law (based on man's works) is the crooked way. It is the same way that seems right to mankind but it leads to death.

Christ's way is the straight way and it is based on faith. This faith is what gives a person the ability to trust Christ to do all the necessary works of our salvation. When a person is clothed in the works of Christ, they are wearing clothes of righteousness (white robes). Nothing of a person's salvation is left for a person to perform. When a person make a confession of faith, or repents of their works, or does good works, it is Christ who is doing them through the person. He is the cause and is who gives the person their "will" to do of His good pleasure.

After Christ gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will remain a babe who is carnally minded. The carnal mind of the person will prefer the crooked way of works because it seems right to them. Christ teaches this truth in the verse below:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

The old wine represents the Old Covenant which is based on the works of man. This is what all unconverted babes who only have the Early Rain of the Spirit prefer. Only after Christ gives a babe the Latter Rain of the Spirit will they prefer the New Wine of the New Covenant which is based solely on the works of Christ. In this age though, only the chosen Elect will receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Those who are called to be saints but who are not chosen to be saints, will die in their sins and be told by Christ that He never knew them. This happens by no fault of their own - they simply were not chosen to be saved in the early harvest of mankind. They will have to wait for the main harvest which happens at year's end (final age).

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

Joe
 
Last edited:

Windmill Charge

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2017
3,606
2,195
113
69
England
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
EVERY time you state that some are going to hell BASED ON NOTHING THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT
Well done for attempting an answer, shame that it is as vague as your first accusation.
When have I posted here what you accuse me of?

As a Christian I believe what the Bible teaches. Mmmh we both will claim that!

As Genesis teaches Adam sinned and as a result we are all tainted/marred by that rebellion.
Romans 3:23 All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

Jesus, the Eternal Son of God came to teach and by his sacrifice to redeem those who will believe in him.
John3:16-18.

Where we differ is that you believe someone can turn to God without any Devine intervention in there life.
While I believe that a willing slave to sin and the devil will not turn to God without the Spirit first working in them.

I'm not going to re hash the verse that show that God knew, preordained, predestined etc etc.
You know those verse as well as those that imply that salvation is all man's choice.

I prefer a theology that gives God the Glory, rather than one that glorifies man's choice.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
20,294
8,121
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
When an unbeliever is presented the Gospel, they are going to think it is foolishness unless Christ has given them the Holy Spirit beforehand.

God does not give unbelievers the Holy Spirit.

As if God did that, as your cult teaches, then God is giving the Holy Spirit to unbelievers, who are not forgiven their sin yet.


No one is "born again in their sin"... as your -calvinism hyper-cult has taught you.
 

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2023
1,454
219
63
64
Fort Collins, CO, USA
www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God does not give unbelievers the Holy Spirit.

As if God did that, as your cult teaches, then God is giving the Holy Spirit to unbelievers, who are not forgiven their sin yet.


No one is "born again in their sin"... as your -calvinism hyper-cult has taught you.
Dear Behold,
If what you say is true, then no can be saved because faith and belief in Christ happens only when a person has the Spirit.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Mankind has no ability in their present carnal state to have faith in Christ. Believing it to be otherwise comes from the teachings of the apostate church - who receives their beliefs from Satan via the spirit of anti-Christ.

Christ comes to a person and gives them the free gift of the Spirit because of His Grace. Grace is God's unmerited favor upon a person. No one deserves salvation so God will freely it to mankind solely because of who He is. It sounds like you do not understand grace.

Joe
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
20,294
8,121
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
Dear Behold,
If what you say is true, then no can be saved because faith and belief in Christ happens only when a person has the Spirit.

Your verse is talking about someone who has the Spirit, and is born again "in Christ".

This verse by Paul, is teaching the Corinthians, the Corinthian CHRISTians... who are a local church that Paul built,..started..... how to discern someone who is "anti-Christ", or against Christ, or not of Christ.

He's talking to the born again, who are already CHRISTians, and have the Spirit of God.
 

FaithWillDo

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2023
1,454
219
63
64
Fort Collins, CO, USA
www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your verse is talking about someone who has the Spirit, and is born again "in Christ".

This verse by Paul, is teaching the Corinthians, the Corinthian CHRISTians... who are a local church that Paul built,..started..... how to discern someone who is "anti-Christ", or against Christ, or not of Christ.

He's talking to the born again, who are already CHRISTians, and have the Spirit of God.
Dear Behold,
You seem to have a problem understanding what you are reading. The verse says that NO MAN can call Jesus Lord but by having the Holy Spirit indwelling them. It also says that when a person has the Spirit, they can no longer call Him accursed (reject Him). Those are very definitive and profound statements. And they are not hard to understand.

The real issue you seem to have with the verse is not because you can't understand what it teaches, it is because you can't accept what it teaches. If you did accept what the verse clearly states, it would conflict with your belief in man's supposed free will ability - and you can't let that happen. If you did, the house of cards you have built your faith on (man's works) would come crashing down. I can also tell you by the certainty of God's Word, that someday (at a time of Christ's choosing) your house will collapse because it is not built upon the truth of God.

Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain (the Latter Rain of the Spirit) descended, and the floods came (judgment), and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

The scripture above is describing the conversion event that all mankind will someday experience. I recommend that you "call unto the Lord" for that "day" to come to you now.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder (voice of God) and RAIN (the Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great (that you are wearing filthy rags of man's works), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

@GodsGrace needs to take the these words of Christ to heart, also.

Joe
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Dear Behold,
You seem to have a problem understanding what you are reading. The verse says that NO MAN can call Jesus Lord but by having the Holy Spirit indwelling them. It also says that when a person has the Spirit, they can no longer call Him accursed (reject Him). Those are very definitive and profound statements. And they are not hard to understand.

The real issue you seem to have with the verse is not because you can't understand what it teaches, it is because you can't accept what it teaches. If you did accept what the verse clearly states, it would conflict with your belief in man's supposed free will ability - and you can't let that happen. If you did, the house of cards you have built your faith on (man's works) would come crashing down. I can also tell you by the certainty of God's Word, that someday (at a time of Christ's choosing) your house will collapse because it is not built upon the truth of God.

Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain (the Latter Rain of the Spirit) descended, and the floods came (judgment), and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

The scripture above is describing the conversion event that all mankind will someday experience. I recommend that you "call unto the Lord" for that "day" to come to you now.

Matthew 7:23......is very plain and simple to understand.
Jesus taught for over 3 years.

Those that hear His teachings and DOES THEM will be a wise man.
Those that hear His teachings and DOES NOT DO THEM will be a foolish man.

Joe,,,,the above warnings require ACTIONS on OUR PART.
Jesus is plainly telling us that we have to practice what He taught....
WE HAVE TO
WE

Please show me in the Matthew 7:23.....verses WHERE it states anything other than that we are to obey Jesus and DO WHAT HE TAUGHT.

You eisegete verses.....you read into them what you would like them to say.
BUT....they do NOT state what you've been told they do.

Follow Jesus...
Not man.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
20,294
8,121
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
Dear Behold,
You seem to have a problem understanding what you are reading.

You quote verses, and actually believe that because you have cut and pasted it, or some teaching that you cut and paste.. you have proven something.

The Fact is, you've proven that this all you have to offer.

You are the end product of a very strange belief system, that could not explain the Blood Atonement, unless you Google it, cut and paste it, and then you still wont understand it, but you will pretend that you do, @FaithWillDo
 
Status
Not open for further replies.