How is the Woman saved through childbirth?

[FaithWillDo]

I didn’t mean literally seeing Jesus. Thanks for clarifying. I do think I’ve seen Him in scripture. Like the Woman saved through childbearing. It means something to me. Not many agree. But even in Numbers 5 where the Woman is clean, conceives, and bears fruit. I see Christ in it. Same as Romans 7 there is fruit unto God, by the body of Christ. I do see Him all over the word, speaking of Hope and good news. But I can read where Paul endures and bears fruit unto God. I can read these things about others, but what I read about I haven’t seen in my life. I hope for it. I desire it. But I haven’t seen fruit. I haven’t seen what I read about in my life.

My husband asked me earlier to give you these verses. The conversation has moved on now. But he asked me again this evening when he called from work, if I had shared it with you. It’s important to him for me to share it with you.
Acts 13:32-33 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, [33] God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten you.
I highlighted the part he keeps saying…

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I wanted to do a follow up post on the verse that I recently discovered.

1Cor 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

You know that truth is taught "here a little, and there a little". Well...this scripture was the missing piece that I needed to come to a fuller understanding of the birthing analogy.

When I found this verse last night, I was a little confused by it at first because it was saying that Paul was a father who gave birth to new children of God. I didn't think it fit into either the marriage analogy or the birthing analogy. But during the night (I couldn't sleep well for thinking about it) the Lord showed me the truth about what Paul said - and the scripture your husband showed me played a big part in it.

Here is the "hidden treasure" the Lord showed me:

The statement made by Paul in 1Cor 4:15 is part of the birthing analogy. The birthing analogy uses Christ (the Father) and the New Covenant of Grace through Faith (the Freewoman) to teach certain aspects of how God produces His offspring.

In Paul's verse, instead of Paul saying "through the New Covenant of Grace through Faith, Paul shortens it by just saying "through the Gospel". The Gospel is the freewoman and it includes all the spiritual things which produce a new child of God. Those "things" include the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit which is the free gift from Christ. It is the Holy Spirit that gives a person their faith & repentance from works. And it is their faith and repentance that makes Christ's pathway "straight" for Him to "come again" and convert them.

The New Covenant of Grace through Faith is the "promise" that Christ made to Abraham and since it is by promise, salvation is not conditional - it does not require the works of man (Old Covenant of Law) for man to receive the promise.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Paul confirms this truth in the scripture below:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (made by promise): 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Back to what Paul said about him being a "father" and not a mother.

Since Paul says he is a father, I couldn't get it to fit into the marriage analogy because, in that analogy, an Elect believer is the wife (bride) of Christ. All that was left for it to fit into was the birthing analogy - but in that analogy, Christ is the Father. But then I remembered the scripture your husband showed me:

Acts 13:32-33 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, [33] God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten you.

Since a converted Elect believer is "in Christ", Christ is the one who causes the person to "will and do of His good pleasure".

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So when Paul says that he is the father, it is only because Paul is in Christ and it is Christ who is the one who is doing the works of birthing the new child of God with the freewoman.

This verse applies:

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us (a converted Elect believer), for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

So when Paul says he is the father of the new children of God, he is not stealing from Christ because he is "in Christ" and it is Christ who is doing the work of birthing a new child of God.

Does this make sense to you?

I plan on doing a second post later that will compare Satan & the bondwoman with Christ and the freewoman. When a person can understand the pathway to salvation, it is easy to see how Satan masquerades as Christ and mimics Him on producing children.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I didn't think that you were literally seeing Jesus.

From your comments in the first paragraph, I'm still not sure you are understanding what I meant when I said that when Christ heals a person's spiritual blindness, Christ will appear to that person. What I am saying is that Christ is the Word of God and since scripture is the recorded witness of the Word of God, all scripture is Christ, not just certain scriptures. When the truth of God's Word opens up to a person, Christ is appearing to that person and that appearance is a continuous appearing that never ends.

I get your saying it’s not just a verse. But then you said, “when the truth of God’s Word opens up to a person, Christ is appearing to that person and that appearance is a continuous appearing that never ends.” Does it start with a verse, or verses? I’ll probably miss again. What I think you are saying reminds of Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and put Me to the test now in this,” says the Lord of armies, “if I do not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

Before you try to tell me what it really means. Please stay focused on “whole” not a tenth…not sick …but “whole”. To me that speaks of where Paul told the Corinthians “we will be weak, that you be made strong. This we pray, even your perfection. Be you made complete.” To me it speaks of why God said not to bring the diseased to Him in the Old Testament. Although they did bring the diseased to Christ. Right? Do you see a connection to what you are saying regarding when “Christ heals a person's spiritual blindness, Christ will appear to that person.” And you’re pointing out the whole Word? This is what I hear when you keep saying He is the whole Word. Not a tenth. The Whole. To me it is what we desire. To bring a tenth, or the whole. Paul’s desire was always towards the perfecting of the saints that they be presented Whole with him in the presence of God. Most want to take the blemished to God as a way to cover themselves saying “thank God I am not like this blemished one.” That is beautiful to me that God hates their bringing their tithes to Him, for boasting in the flesh. (Imo). Instead God desires wholeness. Maybe I don’t get what you say…but still it begins with a verse, or verses, because it starts there and builds from there.

One more comment:

I found another verse that talks about Paul birthing other Elect believers. However, in this verse, Paul identifies himself as their "father" and not as the wife of Christ who produces offspring.

1Cor 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

You have missed the point. Whether Paul refers to himself as a father or a mother or a brother …it doesn’t change that what you first said concerning there are no children born in the marriage analogy …which is not true. The children are Spiritual children. Going back to Numbers 5 where the woman is clean, conceives and bears fruit. It’s Spiritual Children born of God, for no other way is the Woman saved except through child birth (unto us a Son is given!) (this is My Son in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!) except first she be clean, conceives and bears fruit, which fruit is by and through Christ. If the Spirit has no children, if there be no children, then Christ is not yet born. If Christ is not yet born, then the Woman is not yet clean, but remains dead in her sin. 2 Peter 1:3-8 [ [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

it is children born of God. It is a New birth given from above that makes the woman clean, conceive and bear fruit unto God. We all claim this every single day, not even knowing what we claim saying “yes I’m born of God, born ANEW” it goes on in churches everywhere “those saved” yet even on this thread is being debated “how the Woman is saved through childbirth”.

Which Paul speaks of in Romans 7. “Brothers, that you bear fruit unto God!” Both ministrations are present in Numbers 5 and Romans 7. The ministration (curse) of sin unto death …a curse among her people …the bitter water…called an adulterous Woman. Her husband not dead. “She is No Widow! Oh how she glories herself!” (Revelation) Colossians 2:20-23 Wherefore if you be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are you subject to ordinances, [21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not; [22] Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?(how the wife must please her husband) [23] Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

But the ministration of Spirit is also in Numbers 5 and Romans 7 if the Woman is clean, she conceives and bear fruit unto God. To neglect and say there are not children born in numbers 5 and Romans 7 is to say the Woman is not saved through childbirth…yet it is is God’s Will that He is the first among many brethren. For there to be brethren…a birth must have taken place. Again otherwise the Woman is not clean, can not conceive, and cannot bear fruit unto God…only bearing sin unto death. is the Free Woman above barren? Forgive me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the word keep saying who is the First to be born of the FreeWoman, where through His birth the Woman is saved. Doesn’t that highlight “the Woman is saved through childbirth” Her first child born of God?

It looks like the marriage analogy doesn't apply to the birthing of children after all since Paul says He is a father instead of being a mother (wife of Christ). I'll keep searching the scriptures.

Sometimes Paul speaks of
1 Thessalonians 2:5-11 KJV
For neither at any time used we flattering words, as you know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness: [6] Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ. [7] But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherishes her children: [8] So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because you were dear unto us. [9] For you remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God. [10] You are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: [11] As you know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,

Regards as fathers, as a nurse cherishes her children, as brothers…none removes there be children, fruit brought forth of God. All points to God desires children. Even one sows, one waters, it is God who gives the increase.

My husband just tried to lay down for a nap and got back up saying he can’t stop thinking about Numbers 5. This is what he came out unable to sleep saying “can you imagine in Numbers 5 where this woman is taken before the high priest and put on her knees made to drink of the bitter water? She is accused of being caught in adultery. Taken before the high priest and given the cup. I consider if I was this woman I would be shaking and trembling begging please, “Father, let this cup pass from me.””

It’s heartbreakingly beautiful …what my husband just come out teary eyed over, is the same as I’ve seen in Numbers 5. Christ present …going before the high priest …His being clean…they’re accusing Him as unclean …and His labour pains, sweating blood to drink of the cup, pleading unto the father to let this cup pass. Yet “Your Will be done” that there be children born unto God. He said “I am the good Shepherd. I give My Life for the sheep! I have the power to lay it down and take it up again. A heirling flees. A heirling cares not for the sheep speaks volumes. Especially in light of Paul turning up the volume in “I have no other to send to you but Timothy who will naturally care for your state. For all men have gone after their own things and not after the things that belong unto God.”

 

[FaithWillDo]

I didn’t mean literally seeing Jesus.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
Below is my comparison on Christ & the freewoman/Satan & the bondwoman. I will present it in a simple narrative way without much scripture so that it will be easier to understand. I'm confident that you know the scriptures from which my statements are founded upon.

Here goes:

Christ is the father and the New Covenant is the freewoman. From this union, children of God are produced.

In contrast:

Satan is the father and the Old Covenant of Law is the bondwoman. From this union, children of the devil are produced.

In the Garden of Eden, Christ gave Adam and Eve one law (the bondwoman) and that was to not eat the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan then came to Adam & Eve and deceived them (through Eve, the woman/carnal spirit). Because of their sin, they became children of the Devil, as have all their offspring.

When Christ came and confirmed the "promise", Satan knew that he was about to lose all his children so he did something about it.

Here is what happened and continues to happen:

Christ will call "many" people to be saints and He will give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. A "few" of these people are chosen to be the heirs to the promise made to Abraham. With the Early Rain of the Spirit, a child of God will be produced within the person. But since the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in "measure", the person remains spiritually blind and is not converted. As a result, the child of the devil still remains within the believer along side the new child of God. It is at this time that the believer will try and serve two masters. As they do, a spiritual war will develop within them between the child of God and the child of the devil. The fight is for who will govern the person. As the spiritual war develops, the child of God starts winning. Satan sees this happening and comes to the aid of the child of the devil by indwelling the person with the spirit of anti-Christ (his spirit). Since the Early Rain of the Spirit leaves the believer spiritually blind, the reinforced child of the devil quickly wins the spiritual war and begins governing the believer. This is when the believer is spiritually killed and loses their salvation. The child of God within the believer is still there but cannot govern the believer's mind. Their mind remains carnal and cannot be transformed into the mind of Christ.

The spiritual war is won by Satan because of his deceptions. Satan masquerades as Christ to the spiritually blind believer. Since the believer remains carnally minded, Satan uses lies that are pleasing to the carnal mind of the person. They easily accept those lies as the truth of Christ. After the believer has been fully deceived by Satan and has accepted his false gospel (mixes works with faith), the child of the devil will become "worse than the first" and will become a "man of sin".

In this deceived condition, the person thinks that they are following Christ and following his teachings - but this is not true. They are following Satan who is masquerading as Christ (another Jesus), and who has given them "another spirit" and has caused them to follow "another gospel". As they follow Satan believing him to be Christ, they are experiencing their Day of Evil when Satan governs them from within. The person will remain in this worsened and lost condition until they die if they are not one of the few who have been chosen as an heir to the promise.

For the chosen heirs, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This time the Spirit comes as the "great Rain of His strength" and has no problem defeating the child of the devil within the person. To do this, the Spirit heals the person's spiritual blindness so that they can know the truth. When they know it, they will see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves when the spirit of anti-Christ indwelt them. Christ (the Word of God) will then appear and commence the Day of the Lord when He governs the person. This is when the Day of Evil ends. During the Day of the Lord, Christ will remove and destroy the spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot (carnal spirit of the person) from within the person. After they are destroyed, the Holy Spirit will begin governing the person. They are now converted into a child of God. The child of the devil is now destroyed. This is when Christ and the freewoman birth a new child of God.

I would like to expand on what I presented above but I am out of time for now. If you have any questions or want to see any supporting scripture, please ask.

Joe

 

[TLHKAJ]

If you have no works, you have no faith, and you missed the entire point of Proverbs 31.

How can you do that?

Your works will extend out if your love for God and others. (The two great commandments ...love God, love your neighbor as yourself.) Without love it's all in vain. And yes, faith without works is dead.

Proverbs 31 is addressing a virtuous woman. It mentions nothing about virtuous works being the way and means to salvation. You're reading too much into what I'm saying. No one is saved by their works. Period. Should we have good works? Absolutely. And those works will be rooted in and spring forth out of love. ("If you love Me, keep My commandments.")

 

[Ronald Nolette]

But Rather Paul is wanting you to excerise your spiritual mind, lift it and dont rely on literalism.

When Paul contacts me then I will listen, but you are just wanting me to look at this verse according to you r reinterpretation.

What examples?

Go back and look!

Again, Rachel was not kept safe and you ignore the OT to your own hurt.

I do not ignore the OT despite your false accusations.

No, you force your literalism on the Word without giving a second thought to the context or the spiritual significance of Genesis 3 where Pauls mind is clearly placed. Sorrow upon Sorrow until her service is complete - whole of life, faith, raising children, even those not her own!

Well that was Eves literal lot in life! Not some spiritualized allegorical redefinition! When people go into the "spiritual meaning" of passages they enter a path fraught with dangers. Like you have no extant or absolute authoity to validate your "spiritual meaning". Other can have different spiritual meanings and you call them heretics. I take things literally unless the passage demands other than a literal understanding.

I know that enormous amounts of the OT& has personal applications, but those are personal and not to be made doctrine.

Paul forbade women to teach, gave the fall as the reason and then said godly women would be kept safe in giving birth. You can come up with all sorts of "deep spiritual meanings", but if they veer from what is written, sane believers will be very skeptical of the reinterpreted meanings.

Another thing that smashes your "reinterpretation of what is written" is the fact that Paul uses the singular for woman. So it is not your all encompassing result of Eve.

Crazy nonsense!

Have the last word. YOu have devolved into ad-hominems and slander and I tire of it. So post the last thought if you wish and we will engage in another thread. Who knows may we can disagree without you resorting to name calling and accusing falsely the brethren with your bitter opinions.

 

[FaithWillDo]

You have missed the point. Whether Paul refers to himself as a father or a mother or a brother …it doesn’t change that what you first said concerning there are no children born in the marriage analogy …

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
but still it begins with a verse, or verses, because it starts there and builds from there.

Yes, truth is built "line upon line" and "precept upon precept". Truth's foundation is Christ and Him crucified, which is the milk of the word. After a believer is converted, they will build on that foundational truth with the spiritual teachings of Christ. This "appearing" of Christ is continuous as they grow to be a perfect man of full age.

For example: when I discovered the verse about Paul being a father and begetting children and how it applies to the birthing analogy, I was adding to my building of truth which makes the brightness of Christ's appearing to me that much brighter.

You said:
You have missed the point. Whether Paul refers to himself as a father or a mother or a brother …it doesn’t change that what you first said concerning there are no children born in the marriage analogy …which is not true.

No, I am not missing the point. But I do require a double witness of scripture before I can add to my building of truth. In the major teachings on the marriage analogy, they always end at conversion (marriage and supper followed by judgment) and do not teach about the new wife birthing children. I first thought that when Paul and John said that they beget children, that they were confirming that the bride produces children. But that was not true in light of Paul saying that he was their "father". As I explained in my post from this morning, that statement fits into the birthing analogy and not the marriage analogy.

As for what Romans 7:4-5 says:

Rom 7:4-5 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

The fruit that the bride of Christ brings forth is fruit of the Spirit. Paul is not talking about bringing forth additional children to God. In the marriage analogy, the wife is the new child of God. In the birthing analogy as Paul and John apply it to themselves, this is where a converted believer births new children.

The "fruit" that Paul says that a converted believer brings forth is the same fruit that he mentions below:

1Col 1:7 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

and here:

Phi 4: 15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. 16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit (their good work of supporting Paul in the ministry) that may abound to your account.

and here by James:

Jam 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

I do believe that "fruit" can and does apply to being a child of God. Scripture says that the Elect are called "wheat" and when the wheat is ready for harvest, Christ will convert the person and gather them into the Kingdom of Heaven. But this usage of "fruit" applies to the farming analogy and not the marriage analogy.

Now concerning Numbers 5:

Num 5:28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

This verse applies to the marriage analogy and it does say that the wife will produce offspring. From this scripture, I agree with your contention that the bride of Christ will produce children of God. But as I have said, I need to see this truth presented by other scripture because for any truth to be proven to be true, there must be two or three witnesses that support it. Num 5:28 is only one witness and that is why I have been searching for additional scriptures which teach this truth. At first, I thought what Paul said about him giving birth to children supported it. But after finding 1Cor 4:15 where Paul says he is a father instead of mother, I lost my supporting scripture.

I do believe that there is a second or third witness to what Num 5:28 says, but until I find it, I cannot accept that the bride of Christ produces children. It makes sense to me that she does but I need scriptural support before I can accept it as truth.

Making assumptions can lead a person to make errors, just like the error I made about John and Paul being "mothers" when they said that they begat children. Those two scriptures were silent on whether they were fathers or mothers. But I assumed they were mothers because I wanted it to apply to the marriage analogy - but 1Cor 4:15 proved me wrong. It is very important not to add to scripture but to let scripture teach us. To do that, we must look elsewhere in scripture for our answers since truth is taught "here a little, and there a little".

Do you have any supporting scriptures other than Rom 7:4?

I plan to keep searching for additional support because I feel certain that it is there.

You said:
Forgive me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the word keep saying who is the First to be born of the FreeWoman, where through His birth the Woman is saved. Doesn’t that highlight “the Woman is saved through childbirth” Her first child born of God?

I don't believe that Christ was born of the freewoman when He was physically born or when He was resurrected.

The freewoman is the New Covenant of Grace through faith. Since Christ was the son of God when Mary physically birthed him, Mary did not represent the freewoman. Mary also did not represent the bondwoman (Old Covenant). So who did Mary represent? I believe Mary represented exactly who she was; carnal mankind who is sinful and therefore, spiritually dead. In this way, Christ was legally related to mankind but since He was spiritually perfect, He was also the son of God.

2Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

And since Christ was legally the offspring of Adam and Eve, when Christ was resurrected, He became the "firstfruits of them (mankind) that sleep".

1Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that sleep.

So how is the woman saved in childbearing?

1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

I like your answer that the woman is saved in childbearing because the woman birthed Christ. It seems to make sense in a carnal way. But is this really what Paul meant? I don't believe so.

In the scripture were Paul makes his statement, the woman that he is referring to represents the carnal spirit of mankind. Adam is the head (mind) and Eve is the spirit. Together they make a living soul ("one flesh").

When Paul says that the woman is saved in childbearing, I believe Paul is making reference to the birthing analogy. When Christ and the freewoman give birth to a new child of God, only the carnal nature of the person's spirit (the woman) is destroyed. The spirit itself continues to live but it lives on as a new spirit which is governed by the Holy Spirit. In this way, the woman (a person's spirit) is saved by the birth of the new child of God.

More on the woman: The flaw in man's spirit is that it is weak. Since it is weak, the flesh easily governs it and makes the spirit have a carnal nature. It is the carnal nature of man's spirit that gives mankind have a carnal mind. After a person is given the Holy Spirit (both Early and Latter Rains), the Holy Spirit will govern the person's spirit and make it strong. Judgment will destroy the spirit's carnal nature. In this way, the woman (the person's spirit) is saved in childbearing when the person is "born again" as a child of God.

Consider this: When Christ came into the world, he came with the Holy Spirit which never allowed His spirit to become carnal. As a result, Christ never became carnally minded and sinned. Christ always put the needs of God ahead of the needs of his flesh, even to the point of death. After mankind is converted and fully matured into a perfect man of full age, we will be like Christ and will always put the needs of God over our own needs. The Holy Spirit within us will cause this to happen. This is how Christ gives mankind a "more abundant life" which will be free from sin and will have a restored relationship with God (John 10:10).

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You said:
Forgive me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the word keep saying who is the First to be born of the FreeWoman, where through His birth the Woman is saved. Doesn’t that highlight “the Woman is saved through childbirth” Her first child born of God?

I don't believe that Christ was born of the freewoman when He was physically born or when He was resurrected.

The freewoman is the New Covenant of Grace through faith

I don’t have much time today.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That to me says He is the first born among many brothers. Are those brethren born from above?

Since Christ was the son of God when Mary physically birthed him, Mary did not represent the freewoman. Mary also did not represent the bondwoman (Old Covenant). So who did Mary represent?

Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall(death) and rising again(born again, from above) of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; [35] (Yea, a sword shall pierce through your own soul also(Mary),) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Even above this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel …speaks of a spiritual birth in the rising up again. I hear the resurrection of many in Christ. For a sign which will be spoken against. Galatians 5:11-15 But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. [12] I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! [13] For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [14] For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [15] But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

So how is the woman saved in childbearing?

1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

I like your answer that the woman is saved in childbearing because the woman birthed Christ. It seems to make sense in a carnal way. But is this really what Paul meant? I don't believe so.

It seems to make sense carnally? Nothing ever reconciles carnally. It just doesn’t fit. Does it? Like you said “But is this really what Paul meant? I don't believe so.” Agree.
Because to me it makes no sense carnally. Even in this thread it makes no sense …back and forth of how the woman is saved through childbirth?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Yet she will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

In other words... it's possible to have a pain free child birth

I've heard of Christian women standing on this promise and give birth with very little discomfort to their body as they faithfully they continue in faith, love, holiness, with self-control.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In other words... it's possible to have a pain free child birth

I've heard of Christian women standing on this promise and give birth with very little discomfort to their body as they faithfully they continue in faith, love, holiness, with self-control.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

 

[FaithWillDo]

I don’t have much time today.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That to me says He is the first born among many brothers. Are those brethren born from above?

Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall(death) and rising again(born again, from above) of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; [35] (Yea, a sword shall pierce through your own soul also(Mary),) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Even above this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel …speaks of a spiritual birth in the rising up again. I hear the resurrection of many in Christ. For a sign which will be spoken against. Galatians 5:11-15 But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. [12] I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! [13] For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [14] For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [15] But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

It seems to make sense carnally? Nothing ever reconciles carnally. It just doesn’t fit. Does it? Like you said “But is this really what Paul meant? I don't believe so.” Agree.
Because to me it makes no sense carnally. Even in this thread it makes no sense …back and forth of how the woman is saved through childbirth?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I have been busy on another thread. My responses may be slower than normal.

You said:
That to me says He is the first born among many brothers. Are those brethren born from above?

I have trouble with this scripture because I believe it is not properly translated.

Here is the KJV:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The verse really does not make sense to me as it is translated. The verse is talking about the Elect who are conformed to the image of the Son (that means converted/born again). The Elect and their conversion is the subject of the verse. But then the verse suddenly switches the subject to Christ and it uses the Elect's conversion as the reason for why Christ was first born. That doesn't make sense. Also, Christ was never spiritually "born" as the Elect were because He never spiritually died.

Here is how I believe the scripture should be translated (my own translation):

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that they (G846 autos) might be the firstborn (first fruits) among many brethren (all mankind). 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

One thing to keep in mind. All the translations of scripture were translated by apostate believers. And because they were, they sometimes make their translation conform to what they believe is true. In the case above, the translators did not believe that Christ is going to save all mankind. As a result, they translated the Greek word "autos" to mean "He" and not "they".

Here is how "autos" is translated elsewhere in scripture:

The KJV translates Strong's G846 in the following manner: him (1,952x), his (1,084x), their (318x), he (252x), her (242x), they (121x), same (80x), himself (58x), miscellaneous (1,678x).

You said:
Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall(death) and rising again(born again, from above) of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; [35] (Yea, a sword shall pierce through your own soul also(Mary),) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Even above this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel …speaks of a spiritual birth in the rising up again. I hear the resurrection of many in Christ. For a sign which will be spoken against. Galatians 5:11-15 But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. [12] I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! [13] For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [14] For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as you.

As a descendant of Adam, death was passed down to Christ because of Adam's sin. But since Christ had no sin of His own, He never spiritually died and never needed to be "born again" (this is a spiritual birth from being a child of the devil to being a child of God). And because Christ never spiritually died, His physical death could not hold Him in the ground (legally speaking). For this reason, the Father resurrected Christ from the grave.

Because of what I stated above, the birthing analogy (freewoman/bondwoman) does not apply to Christ.

You said:
It seems to make sense carnally? Nothing ever reconciles carnally. It just doesn’t fit. Does it? Like you said “But is this really what Paul meant? I don't believe so.” Agree.
Because to me it makes no sense carnally. Even in this thread it makes no sense …back and forth of how the woman is saved through childbirth?

What Paul said in the verse below only makes sense when the spirit word "woman" is properly understood.

1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

In the verse above, the "woman" represents the marred and carnal spirit of mankind. It is through this carnal spirit that Satan deceives mankind. And it is this carnal spirit that the mind of mankind wants to please. And to please the carnal spirit, the person will sin - just as Adam did to please Eve.

MIND + SPIRIT = ONE FLESH

ADAM + EVE = ONE FLESH

When a person is converted, their carnal spirit (woman) is made pure because it will then be governed by the Holy Spirit. This is how she is saved in childbearing.

Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands (no works), and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity (mankind is subject to vanity but the child of God is not), nor sworn deceitfully.

The spirit of a person (woman) is synonymous with the spirit word "heart". FYI, from my knowledge, the spirit of mankind probably has more synonymous terms than any other spirit word used in scripture.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I have been busy on another thread. My responses may be slower than normal.

That is ok. I’m slower too.

You said:
That to me says He is the first born among many brothers. Are those brethren born from above?

I have trouble with this scripture because I believe it is not properly translated.

Here is the KJV:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The verse really does not make sense to me as it is translated. The verse is talking about the Elect who are conformed to the image of the Son (that means converted/born again). The Elect and their conversion is the subject of the verse. But then the verse suddenly switches the subject to Christ and it uses the Elect's conversion as the reason for why Christ was first born. That doesn't make sense.

Regarding a reason for why Christ was first born. Maybe I’m wrong but I see it as His showing the way though His flesh. And His being first so that He has preeminence.

A few verses that would have to be reconciled for me with what you said.

Hebrews 5:7-9 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; [8] Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; [9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. (I’m not forgetting Hebrews 7:28 For the law makes men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, makes the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.” For “they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: [24] But this man, because he continues ever(having overcome death), has an unchangeable priesthood.
Hebrews 2:8-12 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. [9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. [10] For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. [11] For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, [12] Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

More questions: you seem to see New Jerusalem, and Gods seed, and what is born out of that communion …until Christ be formed in you. Is that birth of the bondwoman, or the freewoman? Same as the seed sown in the good ground, and bears fruit? What is the good ground the seed is sown in, where Christ springs forth “formed in you”? Isn’t it A new heart God gives unto you, and He will put His Spirit in you?

That doesn't make sense. Also, Christ was never spiritually "born" as the Elect were because He never spiritually died.

I don’t know. something spirit died, was crucified in by the body of Christ “your husband is dead”, you a called unto freedom, whom the Son makes free is free indeed.
God has not given us the spirit of fear unto bondage again, but the Spirit of power, of love and a sound mind.

As a descendant of Adam, death was passed down to Christ because of Adam's sin. But since Christ had no sin of His own, He never spiritually died and never needed to be "born again" (this is a spiritual birth from being a child of the devil to being a child of God). And because Christ never spiritually died, His physical death could not hold Him in the ground (legally speaking). For this reason, the Father resurrected Christ from the grave.

Because of what I stated above, the birthing analogy (freewoman/bondwoman) does not apply to Christ.

Ok. Maybe Christ in Paul is not the freewoman/bondwoman but instead Paul. Yet Paul spoke of being born of the free woman. Still …if He is the first among many brethren, I’m not sure why I would question it. Especially reading He called them brethren.

In the verse above, the "woman" represents the marred and carnal spirit of mankind.

Which is put off in Christ.
Jeremiah 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good (pleased) to the potter to make it.

Jeremiah 18:4 NASB
But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.
Romans 9:20-22 Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? [21] Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Point is Christ not seeing corruption to me is His transformation( a New lump), His not being held by death but passed from death unto Life. Still see Him as the First brother born of the New. 1 Corinthians 5:5-8 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [6] Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? [7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: [8] Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

When a person is converted, their carnal spirit (woman) is made pure because it will then be governed by the Holy Spirit. This is how she is saved in childbearing.

Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands (no works), and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity (mankind is subject to vanity but the child of God is not), nor sworn deceitfully.

The spirit of a person (woman) is synonymous with the spirit word "heart". FYI, from my knowledge, the spirit of mankind probably has more synonymous terms than any other spirit word used in script

Still think she is saved through “until Christ be formed in you”
Christ formed in you…again is Christ formed in you of the freewoman, or the bondwoman, or neither?

You mentioned the difference between “fruit” where fruit can refer to “fruit of the Spirit” or “Children born of God.” I still say they are the same. When Christ is formed, the words He speaks are Spirit, they are Life. When this transformation takes place in a person as Paul showed there are children born from “Christ in you”.

consider what the flesh sows its a spirit and it does produce little children speaking the same falsehoods. I don’t mean literal children. I mean mens doctrines on repeat. They keep sowing and producing another Jesus, another spirit (as you pointed out) that repeats the same mens doctrines handed down to them. Paul and the others are an example of sowing Christ, sowing truth…where the fruit of the Spirit (Truth), is profitable and bears children unto God. No?

 

[FaithWillDo]

That is ok. I’m slower too.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
More questions: you seem to see New Jerusalem, and Gods seed, and what is born out of that communion …until Christ be formed in you. Is that birth of the bondwoman, or the freewoman? Same as the seed sown in the good ground, and bears fruit? What is the good ground the seed is sown in, where Christ springs forth “formed in you”? Isn’t it A new heart God gives unto you, and He will put His Spirit in you?

Here is how to understand the spirit word "New Jerusalem":

New Jerusalem is the opposite of earthly Jerusalem. They both represent the spirit of a person. The New Jerusalem is the new spirit of the Bride which is governed by the Holy Spirit. It is also the new heart. The earthly Jerusalem is the carnal spirit of mankind and is the wicked heart.

Here is how to understand the spirit word "seed" which is used in the farming analogy:

The seed is the Word of God, who is Christ, who is the child of God, who is being formed within a person who is the ground/field in which the seed is planted. The good ground is an Elect person. The Early Rain of the Spirit is how Christ plants His seed (Word of God). The Latter Rain of the Spirit is what causes the child of God (wheat) to grow to maturity within a person.

Satan’s seed is his lies and deceptions which he plants by indwelling the person with the spirit of anti-Christ. The tares which are produced is a “worse than the first” child of the Devil.

The time of the harvest occurs just after the child of God has received the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The time of the harvest is the same as the "end of the age" which is used in the end-time prophecies.

At the time of the harvest (time of conversion), judgment will fall on the person and burn the tares (child of the devil) out of the person. The child of God, who is Christ, who is the wheat, will then be gathered into the barn (Kingdom of Heaven). This completes a person's conversion.

Here is how to understand the freewoman and bondwoman:

The freewoman is the New Covenant and the bondwoman is the Old Covenant. Christ and the freewoman birth the child of God. Satan and the bondwoman birth the child of the devil.

You said:
Ok. Maybe Christ in Paul is not the freewoman/bondwoman but instead Paul. Yet Paul spoke of being born of the free woman. Still …if He is the first among many brethren, I’m not sure why I would question it. Especially reading He called them brethren.

Yes, Paul was born by Christ (father) and the freewoman (mother). And since Christ is formed in Paul, Paul is the father of the children he birthed with the freewoman (Gospel).

You said:
Which (the bondwoman) is put off in Christ.
Jeremiah 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good (pleased) to the potter to make it.

The bondwoman is "put off" when we approach Christ by faith and not by our works of the Law.

And as the story of the woman taken in adultery teaches, the bondwoman is "put off" after we receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

The vessel represents mankind. The original vessel is destroyed during the conversion process in order for Christ (the Potter) to make the new vessel (a child of God). The original vessel is destroyed because mankind is "condemned already" (John 18:3) because all mankind has sinned. After Christ has saved the world in the final age, mankind will cease to exist - but the Kingdom of Heaven will be that much fuller.

So when you read verses like this one...

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind): and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

...know that this is describing the destruction of the original vessel which happens during the conversion process.

What is happening in this scripture below is no different:

2Thes 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them (child of the devil within the person) that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

You said:
Still think she is saved through “until Christ be formed in you”
Christ formed in you…again is Christ formed in you of the freewoman, or the bondwoman, or neither?

The "woman" that is saved in childbearing is not the freewoman (New Covenant) or the bondwoman (Old Covenant).

The woman who is saved in childbearing (when Christ is formed in the person) is the spirit of a person. Before conversion, the person's spirit is marred & carnal and can easily be deceived by Satan.

When this "woman" (who is within a "babe" who only has the Early Rain) is indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ, she becomes the Great Harlot shown in Revelation 17 & 18. She is called the Great Harlot because she spiritually fornicates (does what Satan tells her instead of what Christ tells her) with Satan - just as Eve did in the Garden. However, Eve only became a harlot when she fornicated with Satan because she did not have the spirit of anti-Christ indwelling her (as all apostate Elect believers have when they are being converted).

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great (harlot) is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit (spirit of anti-Christ), and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations (beliefs of the person) have drunk of the (old) wine (Old Covenant/man's works) of the wrath of her fornication (with Satan), and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

You said:
You mentioned the difference between “fruit” where fruit can refer to “fruit of the Spirit” or “Children born of God.” I still say they are the same.

Spirit words can carry different meanings depending on how they are used. A "woman" can mean 1), the spirit of a person 2). the Bride of Christ or 3). the freewoman or bondwoman.

The word "fruit" can carry different meanings, too. (fruit of the womb or fruit of the Spirit).

Consider this:

The fruit of the womb of the freewoman is a child of God who produces fruit of the Spirit.

Thanks for this discussion. I love digging deep into God's Word to find knowledge of Him.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Here is how to understand the spirit word "New Jerusalem":

New Jerusalem is the opposite of earthly Jerusalem. They both represent the spirit of a person. The New Jerusalem is the new spirit of the Bride which is governed by the Holy Spirit. It is also the new heart. The earthly Jerusalem is the carnal spirit of mankind and is the wicked heart.

I’ve quoted the parts of your post that I want to comment on. Some parts I left out because they confused me and they need more consideration, i just wanted you to know I’m not ignoring them.

You said above New Jerusalem is the new spirit of the Bride governed by the Holy Spirit. It is also the new heart. I agree yet, stay with me because to me you contradict yourself later.

Here is how to understand the spirit word "seed" which is used in the farming analogy:

The seed is the Word of God, who is Christ, who is the child of God, who is being formed within a person, who is the ground/field in which the seed is planted. The good ground is an Elect person. The Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit is what causes the child of God (wheat) to grow to maturity within a person.

here …I agree…the ground/field in which the seed is planted is the heart. You wrote, ‘The seed is the Word of God, who is Christ, who is the child of God, who is being formed within a person, who is the ground/field in which the seed is planted.’ But I also see this new heart given of God, where God puts His Spirit to govern IS New Jerusalem. ‘The New Jerusalem is the new spirit of the Bride which is governed by the Holy Spirit. It is also the new heart.’

Why does it matter? I think it will matter towards the end of your post. When you speak on the woman whom is clean, conceives and bears fruit. She is called “New Jerusalem” above. ‘The New Jerusalem is the new spirit of the Bride which is governed by the Holy Spirit. It is also the new heart.’ She is called no more an adulterous woman. A New heart(mind sometimes interchangeable with the heart) given of God. By the body of Jesus Christ, being washed in His blood (the New Covenant, the gospel), she clean, conceives and bears fruit. Hold up before you say New Jerusalem doesn’t need washing. Hold up before you say New Jerusalem doesn’t need perfecting. Below you speak of the transformation of the heart. Is transformation the right word? for God removing the stone and giving you a Heart of flesh? you said of “New Jerusalem” as being the New heart given of God. You said New Jerusalem doesn’t need to be saved through childbirth, but it is through childbirth New Jerusalem is saved. That is why she is called New Jerusalem being governed by the Holy Spirit, through the Son of God given, His Spirit crying Abba Father sent into the hearts.

Don’t misunderstand, I am not calling New Jerusalem, the new heart given of God, the New Spirit God places in you …as unclean. Or the good ground where the word is sown …as unclean. I get what you are saying in she doesn’t need to be saved though childbirth, for New Jerusalem is clean, saved through childbirth.. more easily put, the woman saved through child birth…not found guilty of going aside after another IS New Jerusalem. For it is for the Glory of God, She is made Clean for evermore. Same with a new heart given of God. it is the result of a work of God to which she is called clean.

Here is how to understand the freewoman and bondwoman:

The freewoman is the New Covenant and the bondwoman is the Old Covenant. Christ and the freewoman birth the child of God. Satan and the bondwoman birth the child of the devil.

I don’t disagree. I think of where Paul said “I have begotten you through the gospel.” You have most likely already quoted it. But if the good ground is the New Heart, if the New Heart is New Jerusalem, then He also referred to New Jerusalem as the Freewoman, who you refer to as the New Covenant, which bears offspring unto God.

Yes, Paul was born by Christ (father) and the freewoman (mother). And since Christ is formed in Paul, Paul is the father of the children he birthed with the freewoman (Gospel).

Makes my head spin.
Paul was born of Christ (Father) and the freewoman (New Jerusalem above)(New Covenant) (Mother). And since Christ (Father?)is formed in Paul, Paul is the father of the children he birthed with the freewoman (Gospel) (which freewoman Paul refers to as New Jerusalem above).

Where is the Spirit of Son? Who testifies of the Father (God)?

The vessel represents mankind. The original vessel is destroyed during the conversion process in order for Christ (the Potter) to make the new vessel (a child of God). The original vessel is destroyed because mankind is "condemned already" (John 18:3) because all mankind has sinned.

Love …to make a new vessel.

Thanks for this discussion. I love digging deep into God's Word to find knowledge of Him.

Thank you too.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I’ve quoted the parts of your post that I want to comment on.

Thank you too.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
The New Jerusalem is the new spirit of the Bride which is governed by the Holy Spirit. It is also the new heart.

Yes, I agree.

You said:
Why does it matter? I think it will matter towards the end of your post. When you speak on the woman whom is clean, conceives and bears fruit. She is called “New Jerusalem” above.

No, the woman who becomes the bride of Christ is not the same woman who is represented by New Jerusalem.

Remember, the "woman" can represents THREE different things in scripture:

1). The spirit of a person (earthly Jerusalem/New Jerusalem). There are also many other terms that represent the spirit of a person.
2). The converted Elect who become the bride of Christ. Same thing here, there are many other terms which represent the converted Elect.
3). The bondwoman (Old Covenant) and freewoman (New Covenant) who both give birth to children.

You said:
You said New Jerusalem doesn’t need to be saved through childbirth, but it is through childbirth New Jerusalem is saved. That is why she is called New Jerusalem being governed by the Holy Spirit, through the Son of God given, His Spirit crying Abba Father sent into the hearts.

When a believer is converted, their carnal spirit (earthly Jerusalem/Great Harlot/wicked heart) is destroyed (transformed if you like). This is the woman who is saved in childbirth when a person is converted. After the person is converted, the carnal spirit/earthly Jerusalem of the person becomes the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem doesn't need to be saved because she is the person's salvation. She is what makes a person into a "new creation". In other words, our new birth is caused by being changed spiritually (the new spirit/New Jerusalem) and this new spirit is what transforms our carnal mind into the mind of Christ.

You said:
But if the good ground is the New Heart, if the New Heart is New Jerusalem, then He also referred to New Jerusalem as the Freewoman, who you refer to as the New Covenant, which bears offspring unto God.

I'll try to explain the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares again. It can be confusing. It took me a few years before I could fully understand it. Even now, I have difficult explaining it to others.

A clue to understanding this parable is that it begins with the phrase "the Kingdom of Heaven is like". When a parable starts in this manner, it is teaching on certain aspects of the pathway to salvation that the Elect travel to their conversion.

The "good ground" represents an Elect person before they are converted. The seed is the Word of God which is planted in a person when Christ gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. After the person hears the Gospel, they will make a confession of faith and will enter the church. Later, the seed within them (Christ/Word of God) will grow to maturity after it receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit (baptism of the Holy Spirit). The wheat is Christ/child of God.

Shortly after Christ plants His seed in the person (good ground), Satan will come to the same person and plant His seed of lies and deception via the spirit of anti-Christ. When the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ, the believer will try to serve two masters (Christ/Wheat and Satan/Tares). This will cause their house (the person) to be divided and fall (loss of salvation). The person will no longer be governed by Christ/Wheat, but will now be governed by Satan/Tares. This is when the Elect believer becomes "worse than the first" and become apostate (a man of sin).

Next, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit on the ground/person. This will cause the wheat to grow to maturity and be ready for harvest. But before it is harvested, Christ (the farmer) will burn (judge) the tares from within the person. This will remove all the things that has made the person carnally minded. With the judgment of the tares, the believer's conversion will be complete. Christ will then gather the wheat (new child of God) into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Note: In this parable, the Elect believer becomes whatever governs them from within. When the person is governed by Satan from "within" (spiritually), they are an even worse child of the devil than before. When a person is governed by Christ from "within", they become a child of God. That is how you have to understand it.

You said:
Makes my head spin.
Paul was born of Christ (Father) and the freewoman (New Jerusalem above)(New Covenant) (Mother). And since Christ (Father?)is formed in Paul, Paul is the father of the children he birthed with the freewoman (Gospel) (which freewoman Paul refers to as New Jerusalem above).

The freewoman is not the same woman who represents New Jerusalem. That error is causing you confusion. Your other comments are correct.

The freewoman (the Gospel/New Covenant) ANSWERS to the New Jerusalem. This is implied and not directly stated in Gal 21-31.

I think this means the new spirit (New Jerusalem) is why the person will follow the Gospel (making oneself acceptable by faith).

In contrast, the carnal spirit (earthly Jerusalem) is why a person follows the Old Covenant of Law (making oneself acceptable by works).

Remember, the freewoman and the New Jerusalem do not represent the same thing.

You asked:
Where is the Spirit of Son? Who testifies of the Father (God)?

Christ comes to us as the Holy Spirit (the Rain). And it is Christ who testifies of the Father to us. If you believe in the Trinity Doctrine, this might be causing you some confusion. I believe the Trinity Doctrine is false just like all the doctrines of the apostate church are false.

I hope what I stated helps. The numerous analogies, parables, symbols do make it confusing. That is why finding the truth is difficult. But Christ teaches this way so that only His converted Elect will be able to understand. They understand because the Holy Spirit guides their understanding.

The thing that helps a lot is to know what symbols are synonymous with the other symbols. When you can do this, you will see that there are not very many different things to know.

Here is an easy example: A saved person can be called Elect, heir, First Fruit, overcomer, saint, faithful, bride, wheat, and probably some more names that I am not thinking of right now.

The sprit of a person also has many names. Some symbols represent the carnal spirit (the natural) and some represent the new spirit that is governed by the Holy Spirit (the spiritual).

This concept applies to most terms:

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The mind of a person is the same. The mind can be the carnal mind (the natural) or the mind of Christ (the spiritual).

If you go through the list of all the different symbols used in scripture, you will find that there are not that many of them which mean something different. In other words, there are a lot of synonymous symbols, you just have to know how to match them up.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The freewoman is not the same woman who represents New Jerusalem.

Galatians 4:26,31
But Jerusalem which is above (New Jerusalem) is free, which is the mother of us all.
….
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

How else am I to receive this? I’m sorry, I’ll read closer later. I have to get up leaves today.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Not speaking about women being saved in child birth

Part of the curse that came upon women after the fall was very painful child birth.

Since Jesus Christ came to reverse the curse, it's possible for women to have pain free child birth if they stand for it.

Most won't because they do not believe all things are possible with the Lord... and so they just accept that they will have excruciating pain during childbirth and so this is what most women get.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Galatians 4:26,31
But Jerusalem which is above (New Jerusalem) is free, which is the mother of us all.
….
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

How else am I to receive this? I’m sorry, I’ll read closer later. I have to get up leaves today.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You are really making me pray, study and think on this one.

I have not noticed that last portion of the verse before. Thanks for pointing it out.

Here is a better translation:

Gal 4:26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,

This is confusing to me because Paul says that the bondwoman answers to the earthly Jerusalem. Paul clearly says that the bondwoman is the Old Covenant. But if the earthly Jerusalem is the bondwoman like the New Jerusalem is the freewoman, how can the bondwoman answer to earthly Jerusalem if they are one and the same?

And since the New Jerusalem (the one above) is the freewoman and the freewoman is the New Covenant, how does the freewoman answer to the New Jerusalem if they are one and the same?

This doesn't seem to make sense.

I went back and studied the earthly Jerusalem (the one below) again. Earthly Jerusalem is synonymous with Babylon the Great City, the Great Harlot, Sodom and Egypt. I am certain that these symbols all represent mankind's carnal spirit which gives mankind their carnal nature. This carnal spirit is why mankind sins and why mankind is in bondage to sin. She is also the one who is judged and destroyed when judgement falls to convert a person.

Since the earthly Jerusalem represents the "natural", then the New Jerusalem has to represent the "spiritual" that comes second. The spiritual Jerusalem then has to be the new spirit that is governed by the Holy Spirit.

This may be the solution: Remember I just said that the "woman" in scripture represents THREE things:

1). The spirit of a person (earthly Jerusalem/New Jerusalem).
2). The converted Elect who become the bride of Christ.
3). The bondwoman (Old Covenant) and freewoman (New Covenant) who both give birth to children.

I now think that is wrong. The "woman" must only represent TWO things. The "woman" in number 1 and 3 must be the same woman.

Let's see how this works:

The carnal spirit of a person is represented by the bondwoman, the Old Covenant, earthly Jerusalem, Sodom, Egypt, the Great Harlot and Babylon the great city.

If that is true, why does Paul say that the Old Covenant/bondwoman answers to earthly Jerusalem if they are the same?

The new spirit (Holy Spirit) is represented by the freewoman who is the New Covenant which answers to the New Jerusalem.

If that is true, why does Paul imply that the New Covenant/Free woman answers to New Jerusalem if they are the same?

I think I found the answer:

Here is the correct translation of where Paul says the bondwoman/Old Covenant answers to the earthly Jerusalem:

Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now is, and is in servitude with her children,

With this translation, it all works.

The bondwoman/Old Covenant/earthly Jerusalem represents the carnal spirit. It is this carnal spirit that is the mother who births children of the devil. Satan is the father.

The freewoman/New Covenant/New Jerusalem represents the new spirit (Holy Spirit). It is this new spirit that is the mother who births children of God. Christ is the father.

What do you think? Do you see any conflicts now?

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Not speaking about women being saved in child birth

Part of the curse that came upon women after the fall was very painful child birth.

Since Jesus Christ came to reverse the curse, it's possible for women to have pain free child birth if they stand for it.

Most won't because they do not believe all things are possible with the Lord... and so they just accept that they will have excruciating pain during childbirth and so this is what most women get.

I also don’t think it’s speaking about women being saved from pain during childbirth….if they continue in faith, love, holiness and self-control they won’t have any pains being saved from the curse. You do know there are epidurals?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You are really making me pray, study and think on this one.

I have not noticed that last portion of the verse before. Thanks for pointing it out.

Here is a better translation:

Gal 4:26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,

This is confusing to me because Paul says that the bondwoman answers to the earthly Jerusalem. Paul clearly says that the bondwoman is the Old Covenant. But if the earthly Jerusalem is the bondwoman like the New Jerusalem is the freewoman, how can the bondwoman answer to earthly Jerusalem if they are one and the same?

It is confusing to me too. How can it not be! Consider:

Genesis 3:16 …your desire will be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.
And, Genesis 4:6-7 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why are you wroth? and why is your countenance fallen? [7] If you do well, shalt you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And unto you will be his desire, and you will rule over him.
^Maybe you will see something that helps in the above. I keep thinking about those verses with our discussion, but at this point I don’t know why. You said, “how can the bondwoman answer to earthly Jerusalem if they are one and the same?” I do see this with husband and wife being of one body…and I think there is something there in Cain and Abel too.

Let’s keep going…

(Paraphrasing off memory) A new commandment I give unto you, no not a new command I give unto you but the commandment you had from the beginning. But we know the law is spiritual, but I am carnal sold under sin.
^still considering …how can the bondwoman answer to the earthly Jerusalem if they are one in the same? One and the same “carnal sold under sin.”: sin unto death. As in one man…

How can the freewoman answer or be in servitude to New Jerusalem is they are in the same? “obedience unto Righteousness”: Life. As in one Man…

One last thought is:
How the bond woman answer or be in servitude unto “sin unto death”; same as earthly Jerusalem? This appears apparent in how much Paul urged them, saying “why do you desire to go into bondage again?” There is a constant spiritual battle of those being pulled back in by men who want them to answer or be in servitude unto men, and not in service unto God. See…those are of the same body. Within the body of earthly Jerusalem of slaves and masters, but the bondwoman in service to pleasing the flesh and men’s man-made doctrines of earthly Jerusalem, all are under sin unto death, being one of the same. Both the bondwoman and earthly Jerusalem in servitude unto sin unto death. Paul warned they have no liberty themselves but promise you Liberty, Liberty they do not know.

Reminds me of: the bondwoman “Answers or is in servitude” to men who have an infirmity, not able to continue by reason of death.

Where the Freewoman answers and is in servitude of “obedience unto righteousness” which is through Christ. If you take away at least one thing from these points let it be how the bondwoman can answer and be in service to earthly Jerusalem and at the same time be one in the same. As much as those she answers to and is servitude to, they themselves are after the flesh making them also of the bondwoman. Where those having others in servitude unto them and those in servitude unto them, being of the same body; the bondwoman desire to please men, and not God.

And since the New Jerusalem (the one above) is the freewoman and the freewoman is the New Covenant, how does the freewoman answer to the New Jerusalem if they are one and the same?

One body.

This doesn't seem to make sense.

I went back and studied the earthly Jerusalem (the one below) again. Earthly Jerusalem is synonymous with Babylon the Great City, the Great Harlot, Sodom and Egypt. I am certain that these symbols all represent mankind's carnal spirit which gives mankind their carnal nature. This carnal spirit is why mankind sins and why mankind is in bondage to sin. She is also the one who is judged and destroyed when judgement falls to convert a person.

Makes me think of
Jeremiah 5:26-31 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that set snares; they set a trap, they catch men. [27] As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich. [28] They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge. [29] Shall I not visit for these things? says the LORD(Jesus Christ told them they should have known this, the time of His visitation, saying “woe unto you, you hypocrites” : shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this? [30] A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; [31] The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: (consider the desire of the bondwoman, and you desire (love to have it so) that the priest—having infirmity not able to continue by reason of death—bear rule by their own means) and what will you do in the end thereof? (When those priest who bear rule over you, are they themselves not able to continue by reason of death?)

Since the earthly Jerusalem represents the "natural", then the New Jerusalem has to represent the "spiritual" that comes second. The spiritual Jerusalem then has to be the new spirit that is governed by the Holy Spirit.

Love: The spiritual Jerusalem then has to be the new spirit that is governed by the Holy Spirit.

I love the Proverbs and think of the “wisdom” (this wisdom being devilish) handed down by men. And the “Wisdom” which comes from God—this “Wisdom” that comes from God has the nature of the Fruit of Spirit …first peaceable… Also this “Wisdom” governs, Proverbs 31 speaks of the Woman which has the law of kindness on her tongue, who can find a good wife? Christ? I don’t try to make it too complicated, it is beautiful really. Christ ruling…the Freewoman obedience unto His Governing Spirit (Government) and this shared agreement “Wisdom” like in Proverbs where the Woman honours her husband(the law of kindness on her tongue) and in her, her husbands heart does trust. which all comes from God and is far different governing than that of earthly Jerusalem. Maybe I mixed that up, but to me what matters is how the heavenly Jerusalem where Christ governs, is Hope filled.

I now think that is wrong. The "woman" must only represent TWO things. The "woman" in number 1 and 3 must be the same woman.

If that is true, why does Paul imply that the New Covenant/Free woman answers to New Jerusalem if they are the same?

Here is the correct translation of where Paul says the bondwoman/Old Covenant answers to the earthly Jerusalem:

Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now is, and is in servitude with her children,

With this translation, it all works.

The bondwoman/Old Covenant/earthly Jerusalem represents the carnal spirit. It is this carnal spirit that is the mother who births children of the devil. Satan is the father.

The freewoman/New Covenant/New Jerusalem represents the new spirit (Holy Spirit). It is this new spirit that is the mother who births children of God. Christ is the father.

What do you think? Do you see any conflicts now?

No I don’t see any conflicts except I’m still not sure Jesus Christ is the Son or the Father. Only because He always pointed to the Father. And His Father to the Son. If I had one of those brain-exploding emoji’s right now, I would use it. I try not to say for certain on the topic of Father and Son because I don’t know. All I know is they are in agreement as One. That is enough for me right now.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Paul says that the bondwoman answers to the earthly Jerusalem. Paul clearly says that the bondwoman is the Old Covenant. But if the earthly Jerusalem is the bondwoman like the New Jerusalem is the freewoman, how can the bondwoman answer to earthly Jerusalem if they are one and the same?

And since the New Jerusalem (the one above) is the freewoman and the freewoman is the New Covenant, how does the freewoman answer to the New Jerusalem if they are one and the same?

I just thought of something that helps.
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Consider all you’ve shared concerning Paul and what Paul is saying here in …warring against Christ (the law of my mind), and bringing me into the captivity (of the bondwoman) to the law of sin which is in my members …and how Paul kept saying “We are of the Freewoman”
*when Paul says there is a warring in “My members” does Paul mean his literal body, or within the body of Christ (Many members, One Body) among brothers against brothers? “My Members” has differing meanings as well. Considering the warring among brothers within the body taking others captive to the bondage of sin, I think Paul was speaking on the “My members” being lead captive unto the bondage of sin were his brothers(My members). —Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.


Galatians 2:4-5 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: [5] To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

2 Peter 2:19-20 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. [20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. <I do realize you have been speaking on the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.