How is the Woman saved through childbirth?

[FaithWillDo]

Agree it’s not literally darkened.

I’m not sure “to rightly divide” the word of truth is what we say it is. I’ve heard it is being able to understand what is literal and what is Spirit. I have thought also dividing the Word by the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. I guess I can see that in “to rightly divided” meaning to “break in two” or “to break bread” maybe it is diving the Old Testament and and New. But if I think of Jesus Christ who said 1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
I like Isaiah 58: 6 concerning breaking bread and dealing(dividing) your bread out to feed the poor

Isaiah 58:6 Lexicon: "Is this not the fast which I choose, To loosen the bonds of wickedness, To undo the bands of the yoke, And to let the oppressed go free And break every yoke?
Isaiah 58:7 Lexicon: "Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry And bring the homeless poor into the house; When you see the naked, to cover him; And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?


Psalm 112:9 He has dispersed, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour.

2 Corinthians 9:9 KJV
(As it is written, He has dispersed abroad; he has given to the poor: his righteousness remains for ever.
His rightly dividing (dealing the word of truth put to the poor.


I’m not saying you are wrong about all you posted. Maybe it is exactly as you said concerning the marriage analogy (no children), and the birthing analogy(children). If I’m wrong I want to see it and stop confusing it. I’ll keep what you said in mind.


one question that will help. If “to bear fruit” written in Numbers 5 and Romans 7 is not bringing forth children unto God …then what does bringing forth fruit mean to you in the marriage analogies of Numbers 5 and Romans 7?

What does it mean to you in Numbers 5 the woman is clean, conceives, and bears fruit?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
one question that will help. If “to bear fruit” written in Numbers 5 and Romans 7 is not bringing forth children unto God …then what does bringing forth fruit mean to you in the marriage analogies of Numbers 5 and Romans 7?

I believe I answered that question the the post I just made (you haven't read it yet).

You said:
What does it mean to you in Numbers 5 the woman is clean, conceives, and bears fruit?

I have considered it carefully and I still believe that the fruit that is conceived by the undefiled woman (a converted believer) is spiritual fruit. When I have time tomorrow, I will look for more supporting scripture.

Consider verse 27 in your scripture from Numbers 5. It helps see what is being actually being taught in verse 28:

Num 5:27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. 28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

Water is a symbol for the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. The water that the woman drinks is the Early Rain of the Spirit after which she becomes "defiled" (apostate). The water that a woman drinks that makes her clean is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This water converts the woman into a child of God and makes her free so that she can produce spiritual fruit.

I'm out of time for today. It's been a good discussion.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Agree it’s not literally darkened.

I’m not sure “to rightly divide” the word of truth is what we say it is. I’ve heard it is being able to understand what is literal and what is Spirit. I have thought also dividing the Word by the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. I guess I can see that in “to rightly divided” meaning to “break in two” or “to break bread” maybe it is diving the Old Testament and and New. But if I think of Jesus Christ who said 1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
I like Isaiah 58: 6 concerning breaking bread and dealing(dividing) your bread out to feed the poor

Isaiah 58:6 Lexicon: "Is this not the fast which I choose, To loosen the bonds of wickedness, To undo the bands of the yoke, And to let the oppressed go free And break every yoke?
Isaiah 58:7 Lexicon: "Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry And bring the homeless poor into the house; When you see the naked, to cover him; And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?


Psalm 112:9 He has dispersed, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour.

2 Corinthians 9:9 KJV
(As it is written, He has dispersed abroad; he has given to the poor: his righteousness remains for ever.
His rightly dividing (dealing the word of truth put to the poor.


I’m not saying you are wrong about all you posted. Maybe it is exactly as you said concerning the marriage analogy (no children), and the birthing analogy(children). If I’m wrong I want to see it and stop confusing it. I’ll keep what you said in mind.


one question that will help. If “to bear fruit” written in Numbers 5 and Romans 7 is not bringing forth children unto God …then what does bringing forth fruit mean to you in the marriage analogies of Numbers 5 and Romans 7?

What does it mean to you in Numbers 5 the woman is clean, conceives, and bears fruit?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I am seriously considering what you stated about the marriage analogy and that it includes the bride giving birth to children of God. Though it is not taught in the major teachings on the marriage analogy (like the parable of the Ten Virgins and Rev chapter 19), what Paul says below cannot be ignored (as you stated to me):

Gal 4:19 My little children (babes), of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Since Paul is saying that he is in "travail in birth until Christ be formed in you" (Latter Rain and conversion), Paul must be referring to the marriage analogy where he is the wife of Christ and together, they are the parents who are producing a new child of God.

Please keep in mind that if the marriage analogy does include the wife giving birth to children of God, it is a separate analogy from the birthing analogy that uses the bondwoman and the freewoman. Each analogy stands alone.

Now let's look at how "fruit" is used:

In the verse below, Paul equates his giving birth to children of God as being like his harvesting of fruit (children of God) from the world:

Rom 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit (children of God) among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

James uses fruit as meaning a child of God, too:

James 5:7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth (child of God), waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain.

And this verse, too:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat (child of God) harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Now consider how Paul uses the word "fruit" differently in Romans 7:

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Above, Paul is referring to fruit as the "fruit of the Spirit".

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Christ uses fruit in the same way that Paul does above (as fruit of the Spirit):

Mat 7:18 A good tree (converted believer) cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree (apostate believer) bring forth good fruit (fruit of the Spirit).

Like many spirit words used in scripture, they can carry multiple meanings. In the case of "fruit", it can mean a child of God or it can mean fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.)

This is also true for birthing children of God. In one analogy, the birth of the child of God is said to come from the parents of Christ and the freewoman. In the marriage analogy (if we are right, I still need to study it further), the parents are Christ and His bride (the Elect).

If I find anything helpful on the marriage analogy which can act as a second or third witness to it including giving birth to children, I will make another post.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Agree it’s not literally darkened.

I’m not sure “to rightly divide” the word of truth is what we say it is. I’ve heard it is being able to understand what is literal and what is Spirit. I have thought also dividing the Word by the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. I guess I can see that in “to rightly divided” meaning to “break in two” or “to break bread” maybe it is diving the Old Testament and and New. But if I think of Jesus Christ who said 1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
I like Isaiah 58: 6 concerning breaking bread and dealing(dividing) your bread out to feed the poor

Isaiah 58:6 Lexicon: "Is this not the fast which I choose, To loosen the bonds of wickedness, To undo the bands of the yoke, And to let the oppressed go free And break every yoke?
Isaiah 58:7 Lexicon: "Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry And bring the homeless poor into the house; When you see the naked, to cover him; And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?


Psalm 112:9 He has dispersed, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour.

2 Corinthians 9:9 KJV
(As it is written, He has dispersed abroad; he has given to the poor: his righteousness remains for ever.
His rightly dividing (dealing the word of truth put to the poor.


I’m not saying you are wrong about all you posted. Maybe it is exactly as you said concerning the marriage analogy (no children), and the birthing analogy(children). If I’m wrong I want to see it and stop confusing it. I’ll keep what you said in mind.


one question that will help. If “to bear fruit” written in Numbers 5 and Romans 7 is not bringing forth children unto God …then what does bringing forth fruit mean to you in the marriage analogies of Numbers 5 and Romans 7?

What does it mean to you in Numbers 5 the woman is clean, conceives, and bears fruit?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I found a second witness to what Paul said about his birthing children of God.

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

It seems that John also understood that he is Christ's wife who is birthing children.

I'll keep studying; there should be other witnesses of scripture which can be found.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In the case of "fruit", it can mean a child of God or it can mean fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.)

You said ,” In the case of “fruit”, it can mean a child of God or it can mean fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.)”

I’m only telling you how my mind works. I don’t see “a child of God” and “fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.” as different meanings but the same. For there has to be children born of God for there to be Fruit of the Spirit(love, joy, peace, etc.

John 3:6-7 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Above, Paul is referring to fruit as the "fruit of the Spirit".

Thankfully not to bring forth fruit unto death, to work in our members.

Agree Paul is referring to the fruit as the “fruit of the Spirit”. I didn’t think otherwise. again The Spirit is born of Spirit. For there to be Fruit of the Spirit there has to be children born of the Spirit(God)…instead there are no children. You will know them by their fruit? >

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I believe Paul is only saying the slave was not profitable to them because he was with Paul in the ministry and was no longer working for them. Since Paul sent the slave back to the owners, Paul tells them that he will now be profitable in body (like he was before) and Spirit (work of the ministry). I don't see much else is being taught here.

I am reading this morning closer the early and latter rain. To be honest I thought at first you were so rigid that you didn’t want to hear anything any one else has to share but only want to be right. But that is not true, you may be one of the few I’ve met that will go study to see if there is something to what others share. You taught me that it’s me that is rigid and that I should look closer into the things you have shared. I will also go back and pay closer attention to the differences in marriage, birthing children, and maturity. It will take some time.

Regarding the below. Maybe there is not much to it. But these are four reasons why I love and find hope in the exchange between Paul bringing in a servant who was not profitable, now saying he is no longer a servant, above a servant, a dearly beloved brother profitable now in body and spirit.

1)Luke 16:9 And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.
To me this is a hopeful verse. Others my say hell and torment is the eternal habitations…but I see the opposite that it’s reviving a dearly beloved brother back into the body, after the unrighteous wealth fails.

2) that regarding the servant being unprofitable unto you, now becoming profitable in body and spirit, receive him above a servant, as a dearly beloved brother…reminds me of
1 Corinthians 7:34-35 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married cares for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. [35] And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that you may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

The man Paul returns to the master reminds me of the unmarried woman who cares for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy in body and spirit. Because Paul says the servant was not profitable to you or me…but receive him as a dearly beloved brother now profitable in body and spirit unto you and me.

3) it reminds me of marriage also. I do see there was a time I was an unprofitable servant …I find Hope in my marriage there could be a time when I am profitable in body and spirit, above a servant, a dearly beloved brother (Christ) returned …or at least an heir of grace together with my husband. We have struggle with “servant” …and “heirs together” “of Grace” that your prayers not be hindered.
the exchange of Paul with the servant, now restored above a servant as a dearly beloved brother sounds like Grace, and now Paul asks Grace from the master of the slave (servant)owner to release the servant to inherit better than “a servant” instead “a dearly beloved brother above a servant, profitable in all things body and spirit.”


4) also it reminds me of the slave who was set free and forgiven by the Lord, but then he goes to his master and his master says “pay me the last mite you owe me” and cast him into prison until he pays every last thing owed. What will God do to that master? Paul is urging the master to receive the freed slave, above a slave, as a dearly beloved brother.

Maybe I am making too much out of it. But I do see some steps in it that I can’t deny in the difference between “a servant” unprofitable and “a dearly beloved brother” profitable in (both)body and spirit.

Also to me there is truth in “when it fails” Luke 16:9 And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

Galatians 6:1-3 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, you which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest you also be tempted. [2] Bear you one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. [3] For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

There is an angst in this world where masters do not want to set their servants free because they fear the loss of profit their slaves build for their masters…to me I hear that is unprofitable to both, servants and masters. That is better for the masters to set the slaves(servants)free, to inherit better things —better promises—the True Riches of God—-gaining back Children born of God; a dearly beloved brother, profitable in (both) body and spirit.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I am seriously considering what you stated about the marriage analogy and that it includes the bride giving birth to children of God. Though it is not taught in the major teachings on the marriage analogy (like the parable of the Ten Virgins and Rev chapter 19), what Paul says below cannot be ignored (as you stated to me):

Gal 4:19 My little children (babes), of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Since Paul is saying that he is in "travail in birth until Christ be formed in you" (Latter Rain and conversion), Paul must be referring to the marriage analogy where he is the wife of Christ and together, they are the parents who are producing a new child of God.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I found a second witness to what Paul said about his birthing children of God.

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

It seems that John also understood that he is Christ's wife who is birthing children.

I'll keep studying; there should be other witnesses of scripture which can be found.

My husband wants me to share with you
Philemon 1:10-11 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds: [11] Which in time past was to thee unprofitable, but now profitable to thee and to me:

My husband wanted me to share it with you because I was telling him about the conversation, and that one stands out to my husband. He has been going around for days talking about “I beseech you for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten ..” restore (receive) him as a dearly beloved Son!

 

[FaithWillDo]

I am reading this morning closer the early and latter rain. To be honest I thought at first you were so rigid that you didn’t want to hear anything any one else has to share but only want to be right. But that is not true, you may be one of the few I’ve met that will go study to see if there is something to what others share. You taught me that it’s me that is rigid and that I should look closer into the things you have shared. I will also go back and pay closer attention to the differences in marriage, birthing children, and maturity. It will take some time.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
Take a look again at what Paul said below:

Philemon 1:10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:

Paul is again stating that he has birthed a child of God. I didn't notice this verse earlier. It is more conformation that Paul, as the bride of Christ, does produce offspring. Even though this aspect of the marriage analogy is not directly taught in its main teachings, Paul ( and John) obviously understand that it does.

Also, thanks for your kind comments in your first paragraph.

This verse applies to finding the truth of Christ:

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Truth is a hidden treasure and it is a painstaking task to find it. It is only revealed by Christ to His converted Elect whose spiritual blindness has been healed. In addition to needing "eyes that can see", finding truth also requires that Christ give a person a "love for the truth", so much so, that they will remain steadfast in their search of the scriptures for it. Truth is not easy to find, even with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

For babes in Christ who remain carnally minded and spiritually blind, they do not have a love for the truth nor the spiritual ability to find it. They will generally eat anything that is fed to them if it is carnally pleasing.

This scripture applies to babes:

Isa 28:12 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

This is why the church (the babes, not the converted Elect) after the death of the Apostles became apostate and is why it remains apostate even to this day. The apostasy of the church has happened all in accordance with the plan of God of saving mankind.

Since you mentioned the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit in your post, I wanted to make a couple of key points about them.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The apostles (when they walked with Christ) were able to understand that Jesus was the Christ and have faith in Him. How was this possible in light of what the verse above teaches? The Apostles were not baptized by the Spirit until the Day of Pentecost. So is this verse above wrong? Does anyone, at anytime, have the ability to accept Christ by their supposed free will ability? Not according to the verse above. For a person to have faith in Christ, they MUST be given the Holy Spirit. The reason the Apostles were able to accept Christ before they received the baptism of the Spirit was because they were given the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is a small amount and will not convert the person.

Consider what Christ said to Peter as to why he was able to understand:

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter and the others were only able to accept Christ because they had previously been given the Early Rain of the Spirit. Though the scripture above does not directly state this truth, other scriptures do. It is in this manner of teaching ("here a little, and there a little") that a person learns the truth of Christ. Truth must be assembled from various scriptures.

If the Apostles had not been given the Early Rain of the Spirit to become babes, they would not have been able to recognize who Jesus actually was or to have any faith in Him.

After the Apostles began following Christ as babes, they still were spiritually blind and could not understand His spiritual teachings. This is true of all babes. Mark 8:15-25 is where Christ teaches this truth to the Apostles. The first healing of the blind man represents the man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit. This healing gives the man his ability to have faith and the ability to "see" the physical work that Christ did at the cross. But this first healing did not give the blind man the ability to understand the spiritual teachings of Christ. It was only after Christ healed the man a second time (the Latter Rain) that the blind man could see clearly.

Because babes remain spiritually blind, Paul said to the Corinthians babes that he could only teach them "Christ and Him crucified" (Christ's physical work). All the spiritual truths that Paul was trying to teach them was only falling on deaf ears.

Christ confirms this concept when He talked with the Apostles below:

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now (no ability to understand). 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth (the Latter Rain), is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Early and Latter Rain concept is a part of the "great mystery of Christ and His church". It is one of the most concealed teachings in scripture. The apostate churches of the world have no understanding of it. In fact, they deny the Early Rain as John says below:

1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

When Christ first comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit, Christ appears to them "in the flesh" because the new believer can only understand Christ in a carnal way. They have the ability to see "Christ and Him crucified" but cannot see Christ spiritually. In other words, the apostate believer denies that Christ ever came to them in the flesh when He gave them the Early Rain of the Spirit. They only believe that Christ came to them with the Latter Rain as He did to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost. They don't realize that they are spiritually blind and are not seeing the true Christ. They are seeing Satan who is masquerading as Christ. It is quite a powerful deception that no babe can avoid experiencing.

Thanks for the discussion.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

My husband wants me to share with you
Philemon 1:10-11 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds: [11] Which in time past was to thee unprofitable, but now profitable to thee and to me:

My husband wanted me to share it with you because I was telling him about the conversation, and that one stands out to my husband. He has been going around for days talking about “I beseech you for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten ..” restore (receive) him as a dearly beloved Son!

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I just mentioned this verse to you in my previous post. Amazing! Thank your husband for me.
Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Truth is a hidden treasure and it is a painstaking task to find it. It is only revealed by Christ to His converted Elect whose spiritual blindness has been healed. In addition to needing "eyes that can see", finding truth also requires that Christ give a person a "love for the truth", so much so, that they will remain steadfast in their search of the scriptures for it. Truth is not easy to find, even with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Finding truth also requires that Christ gives a person a “love for the truth” reminds me of “them also who love His appearing” (I do think Paul for sure loved the appearance of Christ…otherwise Paul wouldn’t have kept saying “until Christ be formed in you”
2 Timothy 4:7-8 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: [8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Love that Paul told them 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? [20] For you are our glory and joy.

Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The apostles (when they walked with Christ) were able to understand that Jesus was the Christ and have faith in Him. How was this possible in light of what the verse above teaches? The Apostles were not baptized by the Spirit until the Day of Pentecost. So is this verse above wrong? Does anyone, at anytime, have the ability to accept Christ by their supposed free will ability? Not according to the verse above. For a person to have faith in Christ, they MUST be given the Holy Spirit. The reason the Apostles were able to accept Christ before they received the baptism of the Spirit was because they were given the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is a small amount and will not convert the person.

I can’t find the verse now but it reminds me of a deposit…I’ve heard this as a small amount given early —a deposit or down payment of the Holy Spirit…yet I have never heard any speak on what comes after the deposit. 1 Timothy 6:20-21 O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called "knowledge," [21] for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you.

If the Apostles had not been given the Early Rain of the Spirit to become babes, they would not have been able to recognize who Jesus actually was or to have any faith in Him.

Reminds me of most that encountered Jesus. Like the woman who the disciples were angry saying the ointment could have been sold to feed the poor. and Jesus Christ told them to leave her alone for this she did—-anointing him for his burial—would be spoken of as a memorial. (Going off memory, so that isn’t word for word.) I’ve always wondered how she recognized Jesus. Even legion in the cave cutting himself with stones…how he came running to Jesus. Is this what you mean by early rain?

After the Apostles began following Christ as babes, they still were spiritually blind and could not understand His spiritual teachings. This is true of all babes. Mark 8:15-25 is where Christ teaches this truth to the Apostles. The first healing of the blind man represents the man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit. This healing gives the man his ability to have faith and the ability to "see" the physical work that Christ did at the cross. But this first healing did not give the blind man the ability to understand the spiritual teachings of Christ. It was only after Christ healed the man a second time (the Latter Rain) that the blind man could see clearly.

Thank you for sharing.

Christ confirms this concept when He talked with the Apostles below:

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now (no ability to understand). 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth (the Latter Rain), is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He will guide you into all truth, for he shall not speak of himself
Reminds me of:
John 14:10 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

And: John 7:14-18 But when it was now the middle of the feast, Jesus went up into the temple area, and began to teach. [15] The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this Man become learned, not having been educated?” [16] So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not My own, but His who sent Me. [17] If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is of God, or I am speaking of myself. [18] The one who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.
^that has always stood out to me as a warning to listen to the voice …is it a voice speaking of “himself” or of God? Usually voices are speaking of “himself”

Which to me fits with where Paul said he had no other than Timothy to send that would naturally care for their state(attending to the things of the Lord), but all men had gone after their own things.

The Early and Latter Rain concept is a part of the "great mystery of Christ and His church". It is one of the most concealed teachings in scripture. The apostate churches of the world have no understanding of it. In fact, they deny the Early Rain as John says below:

1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Agree. Jesus is come in the flesh.

When Christ first comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit, Christ appears to them "in the flesh" because the new believer can only understand Christ in a carnal way. They have the ability to see "Christ and Him crucified" but cannot see Christ spiritually. In other words, the apostate believer denies that Christ ever came to them in the flesh when He gave them the Early Rain of the Spirit. They only believe that Christ came to them with the Latter Rain as He did to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost. They don't realize that they are spiritually blind and are not seeing the true Christ. They are seeing Satan who is masquerading as Christ. It is quite a powerful deception that no babe can avoid experiencing.

Thanks for the discussion.

You said, ‘When Christ first comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit, Christ appears to them "in the flesh" because the new believer can only understand Christ in a carnal way. They have the ability to see "Christ and Him crucified" but cannot see Christ spiritually.’

This makes sense to me because when I first come to this forum I still saw Jesus on the cross. That is where my screen name come from “VictoryinJesus.” Someone once asked me why my screen name isn’t “VictoryinChrist”. It took a long time to even consider Jesus was no longer on the cross(where I pictured Him) but is resurrected. I once heard this poem chanted in my sleep, something about “I put Him on the cross and nailed Him there, and that is where he stayed.” I don’t know if it was my subconscious. It sounds crazy. Maybe I heard it somewhere but could never find it. It was something I didn’t write that was elaborate in a dream. I woke up and realized it was a lie that He stayed nailed and never come down. Does that make any sense to you? If not, you won’t hurt my feelings. It was just weird.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Does that make any sense to you? If not, you won’t hurt my feelings. It was just weird.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
Reminds me of most that encountered Jesus. Like the woman who the disciples were angry saying the ointment could have been sold to feed the poor. and Jesus Christ told them to leave her alone for this she did—-anointing him for his burial—would be spoken of as a memorial. (Going off memory, so that isn’t word for word.) I’ve always wondered how she recognized Jesus. Even legion in the cave cutting himself with stones…how he came running to Jesus. Is this what you mean by early rain?

Yes, the woman with the ointment received the Early Rain of the Spirit. That is the only way she could have known Christ and be guided by the Spirit to do what she did.

As for the man who dwelt among the tombs and who had "legion" indwelling him, this is a different teaching. The story is a type which teaches a spiritual truth.

Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, my name is LEGION; for we are many. 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. 11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea.

The "man" who is possessed by the many unclean spirits represents an Elect believer who has been fully made into a Man of Sin. In this “worse than the first” spiritual condition, he is ready for the “end” to come (conversion).

This verse applies to the possessed man:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

In this verse above, the “gospel of the kingdom” is the “another gospel” mentioned in 2Cor 11:4 and the “kingdom” is Satan’s kingdom.

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus (Satan), whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit (spirit of anti-Christ), which ye have not received, or another gospel (works mixed with faith), which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

The phrase “preached in all the world” represents that Satan’s lies and deceptions have been fully taught to the believer by the spirit of anti-Christ . The “nations” represent the ruling thoughts and beliefs of the believer. The “end” comes to the believer when Christ “comes again” and pours out the Latter Rain; followed by the judgment of the Day of the Lord. This is the conversion event when the Man of Sin is destroyed.

Back to the story of the possessed man: the stones the man uses to cut himself represent the Old Covenant of Law which is based on man’s works. The unclean spirit (Legion, who are many) represents the spirit of anti-Christ who has spiritually killed the man (he dwells among the tombs). Through the deceptions of Satan’s spirit is how Satan kills the saints (Mat 24:9, Rev 11:7).

When Christ comes to the possessed man with the Latter Rain of the Spirit, Christ drives out the spirit of anti-Christ by the brightness of His appearing (2Thes 2:8). Before this judgment happens though, Legion asks to go into the great herd of Swine feeding upon the hill.

The spiritual symbol “swine” represents babes who only have the Early Rain of the Spirit. In the story, their number is said to be about “2000”. This number is also a spiritual symbol and is understood as 2x10x10x10.

The number two represents the witness of God who are the Elect. The number ten represents “completeness”. When it is repeated three times, the meaning of the number three is added to the equation. The number three represents a spiritual process.

With these meanings, we can now discern what the herd of 2,000 swine represents. It represents Elect believers who have only received the Early Rain and who are now going through a spiritual process. When it is complete, they will be made “worse than the first” and will become a Man of Sin. When Legion (spirit of anti-Christ) enters the Swine, they run into the sea and are spiritually killed just as the possessed man was killed earlier.

As for why the spirit of anti-Christ (legion) was able to recognize who Jesus was, it is because the spirit of anti-Christ is Satan's spirit and Satan certainly knows who Jesus is (as testified by other scripture).

You said:
This makes sense to me because when I first come to this forum I still saw Jesus on the cross. That is where my screen name come from “VictoryinJesus.” Someone once asked me why my screen name isn’t “VictoryinChrist”. It took a long time to even consider Jesus was no longer on the cross(where I pictured Him) but is resurrected. I once heard this poem chanted in my sleep, something about “I put Him on the cross and nailed Him there, and that is where he stayed.” I don’t know if it was my subconscious. It sounds crazy. Maybe I heard it somewhere but could never find it. It was something I didn’t write that was elaborate in a dream. I woke up and realized it was a lie that He stayed nailed and never come down. Does that make any sense to you? If not, you won’t hurt my feelings. It was just weird.

I don't think it's weird. Before I was converted in 2005, I went through a period of time that when I prayed, I would grieve for Christ as He carried this cross to be sacrificed. I'm sure it was the Early Rain of the Spirit that was causing me to grieve for Him - and knowing what He went through for me made my love for Him grow.

I want to make my point clearer to you about seeing Christ in the flesh and seeing Christ spiritually just in case you are not understanding me correctly.

When I say that a person "sees" Christ in the flesh, it means that they can understand the work and teachings of Christ from scripture that pertain to His physical work that He did under the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant is written for carnally minded believers to understand. That is why Paul told the Corinthian babes that he could only teach them "Christ and Him crucified".

When I say that a person "sees" Christ spiritually, it means that they can understand the work and teachings of Christ from scripture that pertain to His spiritual work that He is now doing under the New Covenant. The New Covenant is written for converted believers (the spiritual man) to understand. It's teachings are written in Christ's spiritual language and the teachings apply within a person.

Remember, Christ is the Word of God. We don't see Christ with human eyes, we see Him through God's Word with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This is how He appears to His Elect when they are being converted. It is in this spiritual way that a believer sees Christ at His second coming to them when He brings salvation:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him (the Elect who only have been given the Early Rain).

The second coming event (when Christ brings salvation to a person) is what this scripture below is referring to:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him (all mankind), and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The clouds are understood from this scripture:

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

The OT fathers who witness to us from scripture are the clouds that come with Christ. The clouds of witnesses now include the NT witnesses like Paul, John, James, etc.

Joe

 

[TLHKAJ]

See what you did above?

I'm not sure. Did you get assigned to someone else's post? If so, I apologize
I didn't do that purposefully. It was generated by the site that way. Idk why.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You can't acknowedge that truth? Are you so hardened in your own thinking to deny Paul is speaking about the womans whole life!

I think Paul was smart enough to say it was her whole life and not just childbearing! You have yet to provide any evidence solid enough for me to toss off the literal words and think this is merely an allegory.

I'll let other forum members deal with that ridiculous statement!

Well you declared god doesn't change and I gave examples that He did!

Why did he write about a women giving birth and how she might be saved? Think Ronald - use the grey matter!

And you were given the insight as to the reason why Paul wrote that and was not speaking of childbirth and being kept safe through it? Pray tell reveal this great revelation and its source! And your not subtle ad-hominems are really prepubescent.

At every turn you stand in opposition to the Word - a hardened mind is what you have

WOW! Because I accept what is written in the word I stand opposed to the Word? What I have is a hardened mind to your opinion of what you think this passage must say! You really suck at looking into anothers soul and determining whether they are haredened against the Word! Especially judging from one verse!

 

[face2face]

I'm not sure. Did you get assigned to someone else's post? If so, I apologize
I didn't do that purposefully. It was generated by the site that way. Idk why.

In your reply your deminshed the Word of God to uphold your own theology. That's a dangerous thing to do, you know?

Proverbs 31 is a picture of the bride of Christ an allogory of a bride who has made herself ready (Rev 19:7) and you poo poo'd it.

Thought you should know

F2F

 

[face2face]

I think Paul was smart enough to say it was her whole life and not just childbearing! You have yet to provide any evidence solid enough for me to toss off the literal words and think this is merely an allegory.

But Rather Paul is wanting you to excerise your spiritual mind, lift it and dont rely on literalism.

Well you declared god doesn't change and I gave examples that He did!

What examples?

And you were given the insight as to the reason why Paul wrote that and was not speaking of childbirth and being kept safe through it? Pray tell reveal this great revelation and its source! And your not subtle ad-hominems are really prepubescent.

Again, Rachel was not kept safe and you ignore the OT to your own hurt.

WOW! Because I accept what is written in the word I stand opposed to the Word?

No, you force your literalism on the Word without giving a second thought to the context or the spiritual significance of Genesis 3 where Pauls mind is clearly placed. Sorrow upon Sorrow until her service is complete - whole of life, faith, raising children, even those not her own!

What I have is a hardened mind to your opinion of what you think this passage must say! You really suck at looking into anothers soul and determining whether they are haredened against the Word! Especially judging from one verse!

No Ronald, it's clear you force your own notions upon the Word as this is the lazy minded thing to do, many do and lack insight and understanding as a result.

All of this is based in Pauls knowledge of sin

2:9 Likewise the women are to dress in suitable apparel, with modesty and self-control. Their adornment must not be with braided hair and gold or pearls or expensive clothing,

Dont give occasion for the flesh to sin! Genesis 3! Lest of the Flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life

2:10 but with good deeds, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God. 2:11 A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness. 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet. 1 Ti 2:9–12.

Now to support his teaching on modesty, careful dressing and good deeds he supports his argument with what?

Genesis 3!

2:13 For Adam was formed first and then Eve. 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Ti 2:13–14.

Then not stopping there he provides the judgement God gave concerning childbirth

2:15 But she will be delivered through childbearing, if she continues in faith and love and holiness with self-control. 1 Ti 2:15.

3:16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your labor pains; with pain you will give birth to children. You will want to control your husband, but he will dominate you.” Ge 3:16.

Paul is giving you an exhortation in Genesis 3 and all you want to do is reduce it to a woman being kep safe during birth

Crazy nonsense!

F2F

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I want to make my point clearer to you about seeing Christ in the flesh and seeing Christ spiritually just in case you are not understanding me correctly.

When I say that a person "sees" Christ in the flesh, it means that they can understand the work and teachings of Christ from scripture that pertain to His physical work that He did under the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant is written for carnally minded believers to understand. That is why Paul told the Corinthian babes that he could only teach them "Christ and Him crucified".

When I say that a person "sees" Christ spiritually, it means that they can understand the work and teachings of Christ from scripture that pertain to His spiritual work that He is now doing under the New Covenant. The New Covenant is written for converted believers (the spiritual man) to understand. It's teachings are written in Christ's spiritual language and the teachings apply within a person.

Remember, Christ is the Word of God. We don't see Christ with human eyes, we see Him through God's Word with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This is how He appears to His Elect when they are being converted. It is in this spiritual way that a believer sees Christ at His second coming to them when He brings salvation:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him (the Elect who only have been given the Early Rain).

I didn’t mean literally seeing Jesus. Thanks for clarifying. I do think I’ve seen Him in scripture. Like the Woman saved through childbearing. It means something to me. Not many agree. But even in Numbers 5 where the Woman is clean, conceives, and bears fruit. I see Christ in it. Same as Romans 7 there is fruit unto God, by the body of Christ. I do see Him all over the word, speaking of Hope and good news. But I can read where Paul endures and bears fruit unto God. I can read these things about others, but what I read about I haven’t seen in my life. I hope for it. I desire it. But I haven’t seen fruit. I haven’t seen what I read about in my life.

My husband asked me earlier to give you these verses. The conversation has moved on now. But he asked me again this evening when he called from work, if I had shared it with you. It’s important to him for me to share it with you.
Acts 13:32-33 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, [33] God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten you.
I highlighted the part he keeps saying…

 

[TLHKAJ]

Although Proverbs 31 is a good template for a virtuous woman to aspire to, women are saved exactly the same way men are saved ....by placing their faith in Jesus Christ, by confessing Him with their mouth and believing on Him with their heart. None of us are saved by works.

This is 100% scriptural, @face2face. I'm not going to be condemned for standing on the truth of GOD's Word.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I didn’t mean literally seeing Jesus. Thanks for clarifying. I do think I’ve seen Him in scripture. Like the Woman saved through childbearing. It means something to me. Not many agree. But even in Numbers 5 where the Woman is clean, conceives, and bears fruit. I see Christ in it. Same as Romans 7 there is fruit unto God, by the body of Christ. I do see Him all over the word, speaking of Hope and good news. But I can read where Paul endures and bears fruit unto God. I can read these things about others, but what I read about I haven’t seen in my life. I hope for it. I desire it. But I haven’t seen fruit. I haven’t seen what I read about in my life.

My husband asked me earlier to give you these verses. The conversation has moved on now. But he asked me again this evening when he called from work, if I had shared it with you. It’s important to him for me to share it with you.
Acts 13:32-33 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, [33] God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten you.
I highlighted the part he keeps saying…

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I didn't think that you were literally seeing Jesus.

From your comments in the first paragraph, I'm still not sure you are understanding what I meant when I said that when Christ heals a person's spiritual blindness, Christ will appear to that person. What I am saying is that Christ is the Word of God and since scripture is the recorded witness of the Word of God, all scripture is Christ, not just certain scriptures. When the truth of God's Word opens up to a person, Christ is appearing to that person and that appearance is a continuous appearing that never ends.

Here is the verse your husband wanted me to read:

Acts 13:32-33 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, [33] God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten you.

The verse below applies to the "promise" made to the OT faithful:

Heb 11:39 And these all (OT faithful), having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The promise of salvation was made to the OT faithful/fathers but it was not fulfilled for them before they died. Paul then says that the promise of salvation has now been fulfilled for their children (the Elect/spiritual seed of Abraham). Paul then equates the Elect's new birth as Christ being raised up again. In other words, the Elect share in Christ's resurrection from the grave and when they do, they are begotten as a son of God.

Here is the full scripture from Psalms:

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son (the Elect); this day have I begotten thee (day of conversion). 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings (the Elect): be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Here is a supporting scripture for being raised up with Christ:

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the age to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

In the final age, the Elect will reign with Christ and judge the "lost" (the heathen). At that time, Christ will also display the Elect to the "lost" to show "His grace in his kindness". Christ and the Elect will then have mercy upon the "lost" and convert them. This is how Christ loves and blesses His enemies.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

In the end, every man, woman and child will be saved.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Joel 2:1-27 shows how Christ will use His Elect (shown as His army) during the final age. Before the "lost" perish from their judgment (the penalty of sin), Christ will have mercy upon the "lost" (v. 18) and give them "faith" by giving them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit (v.23). But unlike it is now for the Elect, there will not be much separation of time between the two Rains - both Rains will fall in the "first month".

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

The verse below also applies to the judgment of the "lost" in the final age:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Thank your husband for having you show me Acts 13:32-33.

One more comment:

I found another verse that talks about Paul birthing other Elect believers. However, in this verse, Paul identifies himself as their "father" and not as the wife of Christ who produces offspring.

1Cor 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

It looks like the marriage analogy doesn't apply to the birthing of children after all since Paul says He is a father instead of being a mother (wife of Christ). I'll keep searching the scriptures.

Joe

 

[face2face]

This is 100% scriptural, @face2face. I'm not going to be condemned for standing on the truth of GOD's Word.

If you have no works, you have no faith, and you missed the entire point of Proverbs 31.

How can you do that?

 

[face2face]

Give her of the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her in the gates. Proverbs 31:31
but with good deeds, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God. 1 Tim 2:10.

Without faith (which works), it's impossible to please God.

If you gave Proverbs 31 the respect it deserves, you wouldn't diminish its importance, but highly exalt it.

F2F