What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?

[St. SteVen]

I posit that they died spiritually that day. They were not immortal/eternal beings that became mortal in that day.
On the other hand, we are immortal beings. An afterlife awaits us all. Many aspects to explore on this.

Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1, 4-5 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, ...
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

--- ADDENDUM ---

While posting on this topic I had the thought (revelation?) that the consequence of physical death for eating thereof
made no sense if A&E were going to die physically eventually anyway. I would like to return to that thought. ???

Perhaps this is a back way in to my position that A&E died spiritually that day.
The threat of physical death was meaningless unless they were immortal beings.

However, if the consequences were spiritual death (separation from God) then that fits the plan of salvation better.
Is not our redemption intended to undo the consequences of the Fall? How does that work if the consequence was physical death?

--- SUMMARY STATEMENT ---

I launched this topic with a specific aim in mind. The answer to the topic title question.
But was mostly met with figurative blank stares as respondents seemed puzzled about my conclusion.
The answer seemed obvious to me and I had never really had to prove it to anyone before.

And initially we were bogged down with a definition of physical death.

So, the thread became an exploration of various views on the subject and a fleshing out of my own position.
I needed to provide some biblical evidence to satisfy the skeptics. Okay, fine...
Which proved to be a challenge for me. How could I substantiate what was so clear to me?
It became a discovery process as I searched for evidence. Here's what we discovered.
What sort of life and death are referred to in these passages?

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged
but has crossed over from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1-5 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air,
the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts.
Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You were dead in your transgressions and sins.
But God made you alive with Christ. (Eph. 2:1-5)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Colossians 2:13-14
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh,
God made you[a] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us
and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

John 3:3-8 NIV
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked.
“Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you,
no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[b] must be born again.’
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where
it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[c]

Revelation 3:1 NIV
“To the angel[a] of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits[b] of God and the seven stars.
I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Romans 8:9-11 NIV
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit,
if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ,
they do not belong to Christ.
10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin,
the Spirit gives life[a] because of righteousness.
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you,
he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies
because of[b] his Spirit who lives in you.

[

 

[Deborah_]

Adam and Eve were not immortal by nature because only God is (I Timothy 6:16).
In order not to die, they had to draw on God's life by eating the fruit of the tree of life. As long as they were in Eden, they could do this, no problem. This is confirmed by God's words in Genesis 3:22 (already quoted, in the OP)
Having sinned, they were banished from Eden, lost access to the tree of life - and so physical death became inevitable (even if it didn't actually happen for a long time).

 

[Brakelite]

You all may have noticed that no-one lived for over a 1000 years. Methuselah got close, but didn't hit the jackpot. Nor did he contradict God's promise, that Adam and Eve would die in "that same day", as did all their descendants.
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. ”
2 Peter 3:8 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

But "being dead in trespasses and sins" is also relevant. What is also relevant are 2 more things. The words die in the Hebrew is imperfect, meaning I believe that it was a process that would begin with an inevitability of cessation resulting in the end of all consciousness. Secondly, also highly relevant, is the fact that the church for the most part agrees with Satan, calling God a liar, that man does not surely die but is naturally immortal and goes elsewhere at death to continue living in another state of continuing existence.

 

[St. SteVen]

Adam and Eve were not immortal by nature because only God is (I Timothy 6:16).

I struggle to pick the right word here.
They weren't immortal, only God is immortal. Were they eternal?
What do you call a soul that receives life at conception and lives on in the afterlife?

In order not to die, they had to draw on God's life by eating the fruit of the tree of life. As long as they were in Eden, they could do this, no problem. This is confirmed by God's words in Genesis 3:22 (already quoted, in the OP)

But Genesis 3:22 indicates that they were kept from eating from the tree of life.
If they had, they would "eat, and live forever.”

Having sinned, they were banished from Eden, lost access to the tree of life - and so physical death became inevitable (even if it didn't actually happen for a long time).

But was the consequence for eating thereof?
If they were already going to die, then how is that a consequence?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

You all may have noticed that no-one lived for over a 1000 years. Methuselah got close, but didn't hit the jackpot. Nor did he contradict God's promise, that Adam and Eve would die in "that same day", as did all their descendants.
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. ”
2 Peter 3:8 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

But "being dead in trespasses and sins" is also relevant. What is also relevant are 2 more things. The words die in the Hebrew is imperfect, meaning I believe that it was a process that would begin with an inevitability of cessation resulting in the end of all consciousness. Secondly, also highly relevant, is the fact that the church for the most part agrees with Satan, calling God a liar, that man does not surely die but is naturally immortal and goes elsewhere at death to continue living in another state of continuing existence.

This is good. We have a range of understanding on this subject. I certainly don't agree with the idea of death being unconscious nonexistence.

What kind of death did A&E die on the day they ate thereof?

Did Adam even understand the consequence? What was death to Adam?

[

 

[Wick Stick]

Well, it wasn't a literal physical death within a literal day.

So much for a literal Genesis

 

[St. SteVen]

Well, it wasn't a literal physical death within a literal day.

So much for a literal Genesis

LOL
Right, we can cross that one off the list.
But what are the other reasonable options?

My position is that they died spiritually.
They weren't immortal anyway. (or eternal?) ???
And what kind of a consequence is eventual physical death if they were going to die physically anyway?

What part of a person lives on after physical death?

[

 

[Lambano]

What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?​

The death of innocence?

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is good. We have a range of understanding on this subject. I certainly don't agree with the idea of death being unconscious nonexistence.

And yet the Hebrew Scriptures contain no such notion as life after death......God’s chosen nation were never taught about an immortal soul...they were taught resurrection....which is a restoration of life...NOT a continuation of it. Life and death are opposites not metaphors

What kind of death did A&E die on the day they ate thereof?

They entered into the death process....they began to die....and certainly died spiritually that day as well, because they lost direct contact with God. Sin is a barrier between humans and God...it’s the reason why he appointed Christ as mediator for us to still communicate with our Heavenly Father, through him.

As @Brakelite has mentioned no human has lived for a thousand years, which according to Scripture, is equal to a “day” in God’s accounting of time. He does not operate in Earth time, but in Universal time.
So all humans have died within a “day”....in more recent times we are lucky to make it to 70 or 80.

Did Adam even understand the consequence? What was death to Adam?

Do you think God would implement a penalty that Adam didn’t understand?
If there was a “heaven or hell” scenario and God withheld that information, how could Adam be held accountable for man’s fall into sin? (Rom 5:12)

Adam took the time to name all the animals that God brought to him.....which would have taken way longer than the end of a literal day, so we can assume that Adam saw animals die in the time period where he observed and named all the creatures appropriately......he knew what death meant in the animal kingdom, but he did not have long to wait to experience death in his own family.

Humankind are not ‘programmed’ for death.....we see animals readily accept death as a natural part of their life, but not humans. We grieve deeply, and often we do so for a very long period of time....some never stop.

We were designed for everlasting life...it’s programmed into us......death feels as foreign to us today as it did in the beginning. It was never supposed to happen.

 

[Brakelite]

Adam took the time to name all the animals that God brought to him.....which would have taken way longer than the end of a literal day, so we can assume that Adam saw animals die in the time period where he observed and named all the creatures appropriately......he knew what death meant in the animal kingdom, but he did not have long to wait to experience death in his own family.

If we are to believe scripture, then there was no death at the time Adam named the animals. That naming took place before the fall, even before the creation of Eve...before death entered into man's existence as a result of sin. But I realise you have difficulty in accepting the plain teaching of Scripture regarding the days of the creation week.

 

[Brakelite]

I certainly don't agree with the idea of death being unconscious nonexistence.

Why not simply accept what scripture declares? Sleep. No where does scripture suggest that the death of sleep is akin to non existence. Lazarus was dead/asleep, according to Jesus. He certainly wasn't in a state of non existence. His family remembered him. As did his many friends, the church, and Jesus Himself. So long as someone remembers a dead person, he exists. Does God forget? Is He not a God of the living?

“(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. ”
Romans 4:17 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

 

[Brakelite]

What do you call a soul that receives life at conception and lives on in the afterlife?

You have evidence for that of course right?

 

[Deborah_]

I struggle to pick the right word here.
They weren't immortal, only God is immortal. Were they eternal?
What do you call a soul that receives life at conception and lives on in the afterlife?

We're not immortal by nature. If we live on without dying (as Adam would have done) or after physical death, it can only be as a result of God's input. "Eating the fruit of the tree of life" is a metaphor for that.

But Genesis 3:22 indicates that they were kept from eating from the tree of life.
If they had, they would "eat, and live forever.”

Yes - that was why God had to banish them from Eden.

But was the consequence for eating thereof?
If they were already going to die, then how is that a consequence?

They wouldn't have died if they had kept on eating it. Their immortality was a potential (or conditional) immortality.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If we are to believe scripture, then there was no death at the time Adam named the animals. That naming took place before the fall, even before the creation of Eve...before death entered into man's existence as a result of sin. But I realise you have difficulty in accepting the plain teaching of Scripture regarding the days of the creation week.

There was no death among humans when Adam named the animals….but animals are not subject to sin, and sin among humans is the only cause of death. Death among the animals is part of the cycle of life that God gave them. They were not made in God’s image and were never given everlasting life….we alone were given that opportunity. We are also uniquely free willed, whereas animals are basically programmed by instinct to behave in the way they do. They have no moral sense, nor were they gifted with human intelligence.

The Genesis “days” were not 24 hour days. The Hebrew word for “day” doesn’t just mean a 24 hour period.
These were eras, planned and executed with each era accomplishing the next step in creation. Each day was completed to God’s satisfaction…..and in the Jewish accounting, the days were counted evening to evening, which would be a 24 hour day….but the creative periods were evening to morning, which would only be half a literal day.

 

[Ritajanice]

It would be mere opinions / speculation ,to voice what kind of death they experienced, after eating from that forbidden tree.

He gave Adam and Eve “choice” didn’t he? Imo.,,....then God sent his Son,to set us free from the curse of Adam and Eve, that we were also born into...Jesus represents the tree of Life.,that’s another topic though.


I guess that tree of knowledge, opened their eyes and ears, to the fact that they disobeyed God, who is pure in heart, they lost their purity/ innocence ...when they went against him...hence sin entered the world...the serpent had tricked them into losing their purity of heart, plus innocence.
.
Well, anyone now who is Born Again, once God tells them not to do something, and he does, by relaying that message to our spirit, imo,...if you go against God, I don’t even want to think of the consequences of going “ deliberately,” against God...fills me with fear.. just my thoughts.

Short commentary.

Adam ruined this world and God could have ended it right then and there, but instead he made a promise to send a Savior. but God fulfilled his promise and Jesus has come to reverse the curse. He has given you his righteousness. He has forgiven your sins.

Genesis 3​

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King James Version​

​

​

3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life

 

[St. SteVen]

What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?​

The death of innocence?

So true.
Perhaps not the ultimate answer, but insightful for sure.

At the end of Genesis chapter two they were naked and unashamed.
After the transgression they were scrambling to cover themselves
because SOMEONE told them that they were naked. (shamed them)

[

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
This is good. We have a range of understanding on this subject. I certainly don't agree with the idea of death being unconscious nonexistence.

And yet the Hebrew Scriptures contain no such notion as life after death......God’s chosen nation were never taught about an immortal soul...they were taught resurrection....which is a restoration of life...NOT a continuation of it. Life and death are opposites not metaphors

I'm not sure what to call it, but there certainly are clues of an afterlife in the OT.

A search on the term "realm of the dead" finds 29 references in the NIV Bible.
Very interesting to read through what is found. One of the references is in Ecclesiastes 9 and two of them are in Acts chapter 2.

This says that mortals go down to the realm of the dead. A place for mortal souls to go.

Ezekiel 31:14 NIV
Therefore no other trees by the waters are ever to tower proudly on high, lifting their tops above the thick foliage.
No other trees so well-watered are ever to reach such a height; they are all destined for death, for the earth below,
among mortals who go down to the realm of the dead.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
What kind of death did A&E die on the day they ate thereof?

They entered into the death process....they began to die....and certainly died spiritually that day as well, because they lost direct contact with God. Sin is a barrier between humans and God...it’s the reason why he appointed Christ as mediator for us to still communicate with our Heavenly Father, through him.

What sort of a consequence is that?
If they were not immortal, then they were ALREADY mortal. Unless I am missing something here.

They were already destined to die. So... what kind of death did A&E die on the day they ate thereof?

[

 

[face2face]

St. SteVen said:
This is good. We have a range of understanding on this subject. I certainly don't agree with the idea of death being unconscious nonexistence. [

No human in the right mind would which is why the invention of Heaven Going came in. Mankind has longed to solve the death question.

Out of interest what would be the ramifcations for you if you did?

F2F

 

[Brakelite]

But Genesis 3:22 indicates that they were kept from eating from the tree of life.
If they had, they would "eat, and live forever.”

Indeed. Which means their very lives were contingent on their eating of the tree of life. Whatever their life was, it was conditional. So is ours. We are wholly dependant upon Jesus for life. We are not naturally immortal. Immortality is not innate to our existence. One day when Jesus comes, immortality will be bestowed upon us as a gift. A gift freely given to those who are living by the faith of Jesus and keeping His commandments. Adam and Eve lost that privilege when they disobeyed. It astonishes me that Christians think that they can get that privilege back whilst in a continuing state of disobedience. While eternal life is free, it doesn't come without conditions.