How is the Woman saved through childbirth?

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,
To help prevent further confusion, I thought it best to make another post on a third analogy used in scripture. It is the "maturing" analogy.

This analogy can easily be confused with the birthing analogy because it uses the terms "babe", child, and perfect man".

Here is the maturing analogy:

After a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they are at the maturity level of a "babe". When the "babe" is given the Latter Rain and is converted, they withdraw from the breasts and become like a "little child".

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

After a believer has been converted and has become a little child, Christ will continue maturing the believer by feeding them his truth of bread, strong meat and New Wine. This nourishment is coupled with Christ's chastisement. This maturing process will take the little child to adulthood until they become a perfect man of full age.

John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man (carnal mind/head). John made this statement below and it relates to the maturing analogy:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

The scriptures below also relate to the maturing analogy:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more babes, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Psa 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

I wanted to make some additional comments on the birthing analogy. The "woman" used in this analogy represents the "spirit" within a person. Man's spirit from birth is a marred and carnal. In this condition, it is called the bondwoman. It is through the bondwoman that Satan produces a child of the Devil when He deceives the bondwoman and causes her "head" (carnal mind) to sin.

When Christ gives the Early Rain of the Spirit to a person, the person's spirit becomes the Freewoman. But since the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in "measure", the Freewoman is only impregnated by Christ and does not yet produce the new child of God. The birth of the new child of God occurs after the Freewoman is given the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

It is very important to keep the analogies used in scripture separate from each other and to identify which analogy is being used in the verses that you are studying. If you do this, the analogies will make more sense.

Joe

I’ll take a closer look.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette @Wrangler just so I'm reading you right and not jumping to conclusions and I'll use Ronalds 1-5 points to show clarity.

1. How a woman should appear
2. Her place in learning
3. Prohibition on teaching men
4. Why the prohibition
5. Her deliverance in childbearing if she lives a godly life.

You believe Paul is saying that if a woman is godly this will guarantee her protection in childbirth? So every godly women who has died is deemed ungodly?

You have me in a spin here because the whole section is all about how a Women should behave in the house of God and you both have him finishing with giving birth to children?

Either I'm missing something or you both cannot see the extremely clear connection to Genesis 3

If I have got you right do you actually believe God protects a women from birth complications only if she is godly?

What of Rachel?

F2F

Once again asking about an OT saint concerning a NT promise is foolish.

Paul declared this with a Future passive indicative verb, so it doesn't cover all that went before.

As for all who followed, I can only report what Paul wrote and will not come up with fanciful allegorical reinterpretations for I do not know all that this promise pertains to! I can pose hundreds of what ifs and possibilities with no real biblical answer. So to make one up that goes beyond the plain text is anywhere from 0-100% wrong! And there is no way to judge the validity of all the fanciful interpretations given to date on this thread.

Maybe it means she won't suffer as much pain and thus saved- but we cannot know with any certainty.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's Pauls teaching on how Women are saved through practicing rigtheousness in their home and church.

So you believe women are saved differently than men then.

So I want younger women to marry, raise children, and manage a household, in order to give the adversary (sins flesh) no opportunity to vilify us 1 Ti 5:13–14.

This is a different command in a totally different context. They are totally dissimilar though they both refer to women.

Verses 9-12 in this context have nothing to do with Adams teaching on Genesis three. And the verses He does refer back to Genesis are the reason why verses 9-12 are to be done. Not some referral back to reveal some hidden mysteries.

Verse 15 "notwithstanding" = "but" so Paul is merely saying that women will be kept safe in childbearing. The subject is childbearing not anything else.

 

[face2face]

Once again asking about an OT saint concerning a NT promise is foolish.

So your God changes?

Paul declared this with a Future passive indicative verb, so it doesn't cover all that went before.

As for all who followed, I can only report what Paul wrote and will not come up with fanciful allegorical reinterpretations for I do not know all that this promise pertains to! I can pose hundreds of what ifs and possibilities with no real biblical answer. So to make one up that goes beyond the plain text is anywhere from 0-100% wrong! And there is no way to judge the validity of all the fanciful interpretations given to date on this thread.

Maybe it means she won't suffer as much pain and thus saved- but we cannot know with any certainty.

What we do know is told to us Ronald.

if she continues in faith and love and holiness with self-control. 1 Ti 2:15.

What ever relates to the child it encompasses this.

F2F

 

[face2face]

So you believe women are saved differently than men then.

No, did you not read if she continues in faith and love and holiness with self-control. 1 Ti 2:15.

Is a man exempt from these matters?

This is a different command in a totally different context. They are totally dissimilar though they both refer to women.

Verses 9-12 in this context have nothing to do with Adams teaching on Genesis three. And the verses He does refer back to Genesis are the reason why verses 9-12 are to be done. Not some referral back to reveal some hidden mysteries.

Verse 15 "notwithstanding" = "but" so Paul is merely saying that women will be kept safe in childbearing. The subject is childbearing not anything else.

For Adam was formed first and then Eve. 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression 1 Ti 2:13–14.

Are you seriously saying verses 13 & 14 have nothing to do with verse 15?

Paul is developing his points from verse 9 working his way back into Genesis 3 (the fall) and finishing on sorrow upon sorrow (judgement) that a woman is to do her part in the house of God in raising and caring for the body of Christ (children). All these matters relate to the house of God which the home is an extension.

How can you not see it?

To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your labor pains; with pain you will give birth to children. You will want to control your husband, but he will dominate you Gen 3:16.

2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. 1 Ti 2:12.

Even verses 1 Tim 2:9-11 is dealing with modesty which is the shame of nakendness (sin)!

All of it is based in Pauls understanding of Genesis 3.

F2F

 

[TLHKAJ]

If I were a women and I'm not, but if I were Proverbs 31 would be very high on my list of Scriptures that teach a women how she can be saved:

View attachment 51545

Although Proverbs 31 is a good template for a virtuous woman to aspire to, women are saved exactly the same way men are saved ....by placing their faith in Jesus Christ, by confessing Him with their mouth and believing on Him with their heart. None of us are saved by works.

 

[face2face]

Although Proverbs 31 is a good template for a virtuous woman to aspire to, women are saved exactly the same way men are saved ....by placing their faith in Jesus Christ, by confessing Him with their mouth and believing on Him with their heart. None of us are saved by works.

See what you did above?

 

[Wrangler]

Although Proverbs 31 is a good template for a virtuous woman to aspire to, women are saved exactly the same way men are saved ....by placing their faith in Jesus Christ, by confessing Him with their mouth and believing on Him with their heart. None of us are saved by works.

You are only considering the eternal consequences of sin. I explained in this post how, in what context, a woman is saved by child birth.

Again, I re-iterate rejecting Numbers 5 as being part of a consistent, integrated theme to the other Bible verses quoted. As the basis of my rejection, I offer proper use of language. Specifically, the definite article, "THE." Not sure how more extremely clear the language could be that Numbers 5 is talking about a specific woman (being tested for infidelity) and not womenkind, in general, being saved for eternity. Some discernment is needed to distinguish:

1. Temporal punishment here on Earth for particular kind of sin BEFORE Jesus' return.
2. Eternal consequences for the summation of a life lived in sin - or not - AFTER Jesus' return in the afterlife on Judgment Day.

Child birth is proof that she was not guilty of the infidelity she was charged with in Numbers 5.

 

[Wrangler]

What you're in affect saying is the Word of God should only be understood literally with a surface reading.

No. In fact, I read a great section last night that @VictoryinJesus would benefit from on guarding against reading into Scripture what is not there in Demolishing Supposed Bible Contradictions by Ken Ham:

Historical narrations should be taken in the normal (literal) way. Poetic passages in the Bible should not be pressed beyond their intention. Prophetic sections that use a lot of verbal imagery should be taken as such. Figures of speech in the Bible should not be taken as anything other than figures of speech. No, the earth does not literally have pillars, or corners, but it does figuratively.​

​

NOTE: He does not parse Spiritual with literal as the whole book is Spiritual.

Connecting verses that are not connected are another example of such eisegesis. Some years ago, I attended a church of a friend of mine. The pastor went on about the church's history of reading too much spirituality into verses. We should all know this and guard against it. As Freud famously said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The sentiment applies to properly understanding the Bible also.

Sorrow upon sorrow is where Paul's mind is after the sin in the Garden

This might be true but has nothing to do with the OP, nothing to do with Numbers 5. Did you see post #59?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is true but we are speaking to Paul's words in Timothy in relation to a woman's responsibilities while being alive!

You understand that right?

Well verse 11 tells us she can't teach men but verse 15 is a promise. You have proof otherwise?

So your God changes?

Well He hasn't flooded the world, we can eat bacon, we do not need circumcision. And women were never saved by good living.

Paul is developing his points from verse 9 working his way back into Genesis 3 (the fall) and finishing on sorrow upon sorrow (judgement) that a woman is to do her part in the house of God in raising and caring for the body of Christ (children). All these matters relate to the house of God which the home is an extension.

How can you not see it?

Because Paul wrote about giving birth, not raising a child! Can you not see that???????????????????

2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. 1 Ti 2:12.

Even verses 1 Tim 2:9-11 is dealing with modesty which is the shame of nakendness (sin)!

All of it is based in Pauls understanding of Genesis 3.

Well you can hold to what you will, but I will take the bible as it was written and not allegorically reinterpreted.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The birthing analogy consists of Satan and the bondwoman (man's carnal spirit) who produces children of the devil AND Christ and the freewoman (the Holy Spirit) who produces the children of God.

Paul teaches the birthing analogy in Gal 4:21-31. The story of Abraham and Hagar is a "type" for birthing the children of the devil and Abraham and Sarah is a type for birthing the children of God.

First I am glad I can talk to you about these things. You said
Satan and the bondwoman (man’s carnal spirit) who produces children of the devil —I question if the bondwoman is in bondage to Jerusalem which now is.

free woman (the Holy Spirit) who produces the children of God. -New Jerusalem above.

You said this is the birth analogy. I see Numbers 5 as the same birth analogy. Same as Romans 7 is the birth analogy. It doesn’t go unnoticed by me and I don’t think it is random that Paul begins Romans 7 speaking of this law of jealousies where either a woman is called an adulterous woman (the bondwoman) or by the body of Christ, she is free and bears fruit unto God(the Freewoman).

numbers 5 also begins with God speaking to Israel …’speak to the sons of Israel and say to them ‘if any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, and a man has intercourse (a sowing, seed, off spring) with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act…’

yes it makes me think of the woman caught in adultery where Jesus said John 8:10-11 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Has no man condemned you? [11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

i do see the birthing analogy in Numbers 5, where the woman drinks the bitter water and her thigh rots and her belly swells…(the bondwoman)yet Numbers 5:28-29 And if the woman be not defiled(by the body of Christ), but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed(or some translations, she bears Fruit.). (Can also see what you say regarding “virgins”, to me I think “clean” “undefiled” “no other man lain with her” as virgin.) [29] This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goes aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;

Another member once brought up Mary when Joseph was told not to be afraid to marry her, for the seed of God was in her.


But ultimately I think God is speaking to Jerusalem. Including those men in her, which I have found on threads here …it is really hard for men to hear they are included in the bondwoman, and the freewoman. And it’s really not gender picking. Because they say it only speaks to females. Nothing for them in a teaching “of a woman”. I’m not trying to offend men, or women…I just wish they would consider it but often they shut it down.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Paul is also referencing the birthing analogy here:

1Thes 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape

Good news though, I think is:
1 Corinthians 10:12-13 Wherefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. [13] There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Jesus Christ told them (His disciples)they could not yet bear it, but when the Spirit comes a way would be made where they were able to bear it.

The Day of the Lord (judgment) immediately follows when an Elect believer has just received the Latter Rain of the Spirit and it completes the conversion process. During this process, Christ and the Freewoman birth a new child of God. This is when a person is said to be "born again". The judgment of the Day of the Lord destroys the child of the devil who was birthed when the person first sinned.

Nothing to say. Will look into it more.

You said:
Point is …I see a departing for a season …hopefully… if need be…in heaviness…to return not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved.

Here are your verses:

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I still think they’re being killed as their brothers were, is their brothers going away for a season, going after the flesh world, so that when it fails, they rerun above a servant, received as a dearly beloved, brother. For example: hand them over to satan that the flesh may be destroyed, and the spirit saved. “not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved.” If I wrote that on paper:

Above a servant
Servant

I do think it shows a birth from above:

New Jerusalem: the Freewoman
servant: the bondwoman

What goes up, must first come down. Which to me speaks of “need be” you are in heaviness. (Still the birth analogy, because it all points to born of God) James 4:7-10 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. [8] Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded. [9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. [10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

The phrase "that should be killed as they were" is referring back to the fourth seal when the spirit of anti-Christ spiritually killed the believer. When the white robes are given to them in the fifth seal it is because they have now received the Latter Rain and been restored. The sixth seal is when judgment falls on them.

I don’t know about the seals.

1 Peter 1:5-7 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [6] Wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations: [7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Verse five shows that the believers who Peter is writing to are virgins/babes who are waiting for Christ to return with the Latter Rain and salvation. The "last time" means the same as "the end" in Mat 24:14 when the Elect believer is going to be converted. The "season" they are enduring with the heaviness of many temptations is because they are still carnally minded and unconverted. But unlike it is today, these virgins/babes are not apostate but are still chaste virgins. The spirit of anti-Christ had not devoured the churches when Peter wrote his letters. Please keep that in mind when you read his letters and all the other NT letters because the virgins/babes were remaining faithful at that time (for the most part). As for the "appearing of Jesus Christ", it will occur for each of them (if they are Elect) after they are given the Latter Rain and have had their spiritual blindness healed. With their blindness healed, Christ will spiritually appear to each of them. The second coming of Christ is an individual spiritual event that reoccurs for each of the Elect throughout this age.

Agree, but individual sounds lonely. a seed must go into the ground and die, or it abides alone. If a seed goes into the ground and dies, it bears much fruit being no more alone.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Philemon 1:15-16 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that you should receive him for ever; [16] Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?

I believe the "season" is only referring the time when Onesimus (a slave) was away helping Paul in the ministry. Paul has now sent Onesimus back to his owners who are also believers. Paul hopes the owners will receive him back not as a slave but has a brother who is a servant to the Lord. Paul's comments do not have anything to do with the time a believer spends between the Early and Latter Rains.

I think it’s more than that. It gives the birth analogy. No longer a servant, but above a servant, a dearly beloved brother. Something took place for Paul to be able to say the servant was not profitable, but is now profitable in body and Spirit. That only happens through born of God.

Matthew 16:2-3 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, you say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. [3] And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O you hypocrites, you can discern the face of the sky; but can you not discern the signs of the times?

The "signs of the times" is referring the the things in the OT that prophesied Jesus' physical coming to be sacrificed at the cross. The Pharisees were blind to those signs. Those signs are not the same signs that Christ mentions in Mat 24:33 which will proceed His second coming to a virgin/babe with the Latter Rain & judgment.

Joe

Agree Jesus was speaking to them that they should have known His time of visitation.

Yet, I still also think it speaks of seasons that we are in and the signs, just like Paul seeing if need be they were in a season of heaviness. Again James 4:7-10 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. [8] Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded. [9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. [10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Same as where Paul saw them boasting over the one who had his fathers wife…there are seasons. I do agree what Jesus was telling them concerning His visitation and going to the crucifix. But the signs also come about in an individuals life when the sky darkens and the moon turns to blood and the stars withdraw their lights…(going off memory so maybe I messed those up.)

 

[David in NJ]

1 Timothy 2:11-15 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. [12] I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. [13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve; [14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. [15] Yet she will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

how is the woman saved through childbearing?

She is 'saved' from the world system in these aspects:

MARRIAGE - Matthew 19:4-6
And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Purpose of Marriage - Maiachi 2:14-15
Yet you say, “For what reason?”
Because the Lord has been witness
Between you and the wife of your youth,
With whom you have dealt treacherously;
Yet she is your companion
And your wife by covenant.
But did He not make them one,
Having a remnant of the Spirit?
And why one?
He seeks godly offspring.
Therefore take heed to your spirit,
And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.


God's Intended Relationship between the Wife and her Husband - Ephesians 5:22-32
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

 

[FaithWillDo]

First I am glad I can talk to you about these things. You said
Satan and the bondwoman (man’s carnal spirit who produces children of the devil —I question if the bondwoman is in bondage to Jerusalem which now is.

free woman (the Holy Spirit) who produces the children of God. -New Jerusalem above.

You said this is the birth analogy. I see Numbers 5 as the same birth analogy. Same as Romans 7 is the birth analogy. It doesn’t go unnoticed by me and I don’t think it is random that Paul begins Romans 7 speaking of this law of jealousies where either a woman is called an adulterous woman (the bondwoman) or by the body of Christ, she is free and bears fruit unto God(the Freewoman).

numbers 5 also begins with God speaking to Israel …’speak to the sons of Israel and say to them ‘if any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, and a man has intercourse (a sowing, seed, off spring) with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act…’

yes it makes me think of the woman caught in adultery where Jesus said John 8:10-11 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Has no man condemned you? [11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

i do see the birthing analogy in Numbers 5, where the woman drinks the bitter water and her thigh rots and her belly swells…(the bondwoman)yet Numbers 5:28-29 And if the woman be not defiled(by the body of Christ), but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed(or some translations, she bear Fruit.). (Can also see what you say regarding “virgins”, to me I think “clean” “undefiled” “no other man lain with her” as virgin.) [29] This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goes aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;

Another member once brought up Mary when Joseph was told not to be afraid to marry her, for the seed of God was in her.


But ultimately I think God is speaking to Jerusalem. Including those men in her, which I have found on threads here …it is really hard for men to hear they are included in the bondwoman, and the freewoman. And it’s really not gender picking. Because they say it only speaks to females. Nothing for them in a teaching “of woman”. I’m not trying to offend men, or women…I just wish they would consider it but often they shut it down.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
Before I respond to your post, I need to make a correction on the bondwoman/freewoman. The bondwoman represents the Old Covenant of Law which is based upon man's works to follow it. The freewoman represents the New Covenant of Grace through Faith and is by promise (no works of man because all the works are the works of Christ).

I went back to my last post and made a correction to it. Sorry for my error, I just wasn't remembering right.

I will use this correct understanding of the bondwoman and the freewoman in my response to you below.

You said:
I question if the bondwoman is in bondage to Jerusalem which now is.

Scripture does not say that the bondwoman is in bondage to Jerusalem, it says she answers to Jerusalem and is in bondage to sin.

Here is the scripture:

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar. 25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia (Old Covenant of Law), and answereth to Jerusalem (man's carnal spirit) which now is, and is in bondage (to sin) with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above (Holy Spirit) is free (not in bondage to sin), which is the mother of us all.

Earthly Jerusalem represents man's carnal spirit. It is synonymous with the terms Wicked Heart, Natural (Old) Earth, Sodom, Egypt and Mystery Babylon the Great Harlot.

The Jerusalem which is above is the Holy Spirit.

You said:
You said this is the birth analogy. I see Numbers 5 as the same birth analogy. Same as Romans 7 is the birth analogy. It doesn’t go unnoticed by me and I don’t think it is random that Paul begins Romans 7 speaking of this law of jealousies where either a woman is called an adulterous woman (the bondwoman) or by the body of Christ, she is free and bears fruit unto God(the Freewoman).

Numbers 5 and Romans 7 are using the marriage analogy which shows the relationship between a husband and wife. No children are born in this analogy.

Here is the verse in Romans chapter 7:

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Now that I have correctly explained the birthing analogy and have shown that the bondwoman is the Old Covenant and the freewoman is the New Covenant, you should be able to see that Paul is not using the birthing analogy in Romans. Paul is using the marriage analogy which I have correctly explained in my earlier posts.

You said:
Yes, it makes me think of the woman caught in adultery where Jesus said John 8:10-11 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Has no man condemned you? [11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

The woman caught in adultery applies to the marriage analogy. The woman represents mankind who was divorced by Christ at the beginning when Adam and Eve fornicated with Satan. To restore the woman (mankind), Christ writes the Law of the Spirit in the earth (the woman's heart) TWO times. The first time is the Early Rain of the Spirit and the second time is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After the Latter Rain is received, the Pharisees, who administer the Law, drop their stones (represents the law) and leave. This teaches that the Law can no longer accuse the woman of sin because she is now under the blood of Christ and is converted. In the birthing analogy, this is when the freewoman (New Covenant) and Christ produce the new child of God who is free from the Law.

I hope my correction on the birthing analogy will help straighten out some of the confusion.

Joe

 

[face2face]

Well verse 11 tells us she can't teach men but verse 15 is a promise. You have proof otherwise?

You can't acknowedge that truth? Are you so hardened in your own thinking to deny Paul is speaking about the womans whole life!

Well He hasn't flooded the world, we can eat bacon, we do not need circumcision. And women were never saved by good living.

I'll let other forum members deal with that ridiculous statement!

Because Paul wrote about giving birth, not raising a child! Can you not see that???????????????????

Why did he write about a women giving birth and how she might be saved? Think Ronald - use the grey matter!

Well you can hold to what you will, but I will take the bible as it was written and not allegorically reinterpreted.

At every turn you stand in opposition to the Word - a hardened mind is what you have

F2F

 

[VictoryinJesus]

ou said:
I question if the bondwoman is in bondage to Jerusalem which now is.

Scripture does not say that the bondwoman is in bondage to Jerusalem, it says she answers to Jerusalem and is in bondage to sin.

Here is the scripture:

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar. 25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia (Old Covenant of Law), and answereth to Jerusalem (man's carnal spirit) which now is, and is in bondage (to sin) with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above (Holy Spirit) is free (not in bondage to sin), which is the mother of us all.

I like it! No argument. I’m sorry for the mistake of in bondage to Jerusalem that now is. Yes, that is the verse I was speaking of. I do notice “which genders unto bondage” maybe that is where I got the bondage from. the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar. 25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia (Old Covenant of Law), and answereth to Jerusalem (man's carnal spirit) which now is,
When I think of answers to, I think of subject to, which I do like if I understand you correctly…is subject to, answers to man’s carnal spirit, which again to me speaks of “sin unto death” which is bondage to sin in my mind.

Earthly Jerusalem represents man's carnal spirit. It is synonymous with the terms Wicked Heart, Natural (Old) Earth, Sodom, Egypt and Mystery Babylon the Great Harlot.

The Jerusalem which is above is the Holy Spirit.

Like it! No argument.

Numbers 5 and Romans 7 are using the marriage analogy which shows the relationship between a husband and wife. No children are born in this analogy.

This I don’t agree with.
You say there are no children born, how it is only a marriage analogy. An marriage analogy with fruit.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I don’t know how you see that but to me that is “childbearing” “we should bring forth fruit” for Paul spoke of “until Christ be formed in you”. Paul spoke of “My little children”. If you are saying it’s Christ being formed and not children in the analogy, I don’t understand because even Christ being formed “in you” is a child growing up in Him in all things, unto maturity.

Where paul spoke of when I was a child…
But when I became “a Man” “Christ living in me.” “I put away childish things.”


Numbers 5:28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.(bear fruit)
Again ..the woman who is free conceives and bears fruit…how is that No children are born in numbers 5? I might even go as far as to say it is Christ born of the free woman. His being the first fruits among many brethren.

In Romans 7 and Numbers 5 both is about bearing Fruit unto God. Is Fruit not to bring forth Life? How can no children be born in Romans 7 and Numbers 5? The whole point of the marriage analogy as you said, is the fruit it bears. how can that be when there are no children?

 

[FaithWillDo]

I think it’s more than that. It gives the birth analogy. No longer a servant, but above a servant, a dearly beloved brother. Something took place for Paul to be able to say the servant was not profitable, but is now profitable in body and Spirit. That only happens through born of God.

Agree Jesus was speaking to them that they should have known His time of visitation.

Yet, I still also think it speaks of seasons that we are in and the signs, just like Paul seeing if need be they were in a season of heaviness. Again James 4:7-10 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. [8] Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded. [9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. [10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Same as where Paul saw them boasting over the one who had his fathers wife…there are seasons. I do agree what Jesus was telling them concerning His visitation and going to the crucifix. But the signs also come about in an individuals life when the sky darkens and the moon turns to blood and the stars withdraw their lights…(going off memory so maybe I messed those up.)

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
I think it’s more than that. It gives the birth analogy. No longer a servant, but above a servant, a dearly beloved brother. Something took place for Paul to be able to say the servant was not profitable, but is now profitable in body and Spirit. That only happens through born of God.

I believe Paul is only saying the slave was not profitable to them because he was with Paul in the ministry and was no longer working for them. Since Paul sent the slave back to the owners, Paul tells them that he will now be profitable in body (like he was before) and Spirit (work of the ministry). I don't see much else is being taught here.

You said:
Yet, I still also think it speaks of seasons that we are in and the signs...

I do agree what Jesus was telling them concerning His visitation and going to the crucifix. But the signs also come about in an individuals life when the sky darkens and the moon turns to blood and the stars withdraw their lights…(going off memory so maybe I messed those up.)

The signs of the times under the Old Covenant are outward and apply to everyone who saw Christ in the flesh. Under the New Covenant, the signs of the times are spiritual (inward) and only apply to the individual where the signs are occurring.

Here is a key point to remember about rightly dividing the Word by the Old Covenant and the New Covenant:

The Old Covenant is physical and the works of the Old Covenant are performed by mankind. The works required under the Old Covenant are physical, outward works which can be seen with human eyes. Also, the law itself was written for carnally minded mankind to be able to understand. It was not written in Christ's spiritual language as the New Covenant teachings are. For that reason, "babes" (who remain carnally minded) have no trouble understanding Christ's physical works that He performed under the Old Covenant (Christ and Him crucified). However, they do have a great deal of trouble understanding the spiritual teachings of the New Covenant. In fact, they are "blind" to them.

The New Covenant is very different from the Old Covenant. It is a spiritual covenant. Mankind has no works to perform in it because all the works are performed by Christ ("by promise" and because of grace/not contingent upon mankind's works). The works are spiritual works which Christ does within an individual. Spiritual works cannot be seen with human eyes.

One more point. You mentioned the sun and moon being darkened. This is a New Covenant teaching and is spiritual. It happens within an individual believer while they are going through the conversion process. The physical sun and moon are not literally darkened as some believe. The meaning of the sun and moon being darkened relates to the birthing analogy. The natural sun represents Satan and the Moon represents the Old Covenant of Law (the bondwoman). It is from these parents that mankind receives their light (truth) and why mankind uses religion (based on the works of man) to make themselves acceptable to God. When a believer is being converted, their spiritual blindness will be healed and they will no longer receive their light (truth) from the natural sun and moon. They will start receiving their truth from the spiritual Sun (Christ) and the spiritual moon (freewoman/New Covenant of Grace through faith).

Joe



Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The physical sun and moon are not literally darkened as some believe. The meaning of the sun and moon being darkened relates to the birthing analogy

Agree it’s not literally darkened.

Here is a key point to remember about rightly dividing the Word by the Old Covenant and the New Covenant:

I’m not sure “to rightly divide” the word of truth is what we say it is. I’ve heard it is being able to understand what is literal and what is Spirit. I have thought also dividing the Word by the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. I guess I can see that in “to rightly divided” meaning to “break in two” or “to break bread” maybe it is diving the Old Testament and and New. But if I think of Jesus Christ who said 1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
I like Isaiah 58: 6 concerning breaking bread and dealing(dividing) your bread out to feed the poor

Isaiah 58:6 Lexicon: "Is this not the fast which I choose, To loosen the bonds of wickedness, To undo the bands of the yoke, And to let the oppressed go free And break every yoke?
Isaiah 58:7 Lexicon: "Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry And bring the homeless poor into the house; When you see the naked, to cover him; And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?


Psalm 112:9 He has dispersed, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour.

2 Corinthians 9:9 KJV
(As it is written, He has dispersed abroad; he has given to the poor: his righteousness remains for ever.
His rightly dividing (dealing the word of truth put to the poor.


I’m not saying you are wrong about all you posted. Maybe it is exactly as you said concerning the marriage analogy (no children), and the birthing analogy(children). If I’m wrong I want to see it and stop confusing it. I’ll keep what you said in mind.


one question that will help. If “to bear fruit” written in Numbers 5 and Romans 7 is not bringing forth children unto God …then what does bringing forth fruit mean to you in the marriage analogies of Numbers 5 and Romans 7?

What does it mean to you in Numbers 5 the woman is clean, conceives, and bears fruit?

 

[FaithWillDo]

I like it! No argument.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
This I don’t agree with.
You say there are no children born, how it is only a marriage analogy. An marriage analogy with fruit.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The fruit that is produced by the wife (the converted believer) is the "fruit of the Spirit" (love, joy, peace, etc.). It is not referring to children.

This same fruit is what Christ mentions below:

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree (a person) bringeth forth good fruit (love, joy, peace, etc.); but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit (hate, anger, jealous, etc.).

You said:
I don’t know how you see that but to me that is “childbearing” “we should bring forth fruit” for Paul spoke of “until Christ be formed in you”. Paul spoke of “My little children”. If you are saying it’s Christ being formed and not children in the analogy, I don’t understand because even Christ being formed “in you” is a child growing up in Him in all things, unto maturity.

Yes, Paul talks of him birthing children in the faith but that is not a part of the marriage analogy or even the birthing analogy. I guess you could say that it is another analogy - there are many of them used in the spiritual teachings of Christ. Thanks for pointing that out.

You said:
If you are saying it’s Christ being formed and not children in the analogy, I don’t understand because even Christ being formed “in you” is a child growing up in Him in all things, unto maturity.

Now you are switching to the maturing analogy. You must keep the analogies separate. Christ is being formed in us. We start as a 'babe" who is carnal and unconverted. After we are converted, we mature to a "little child" who no longer draws milk (Christ and Him crucified). As a little child we can start understanding the spiritual teachings of Christ (bread, meat and New Wine). As we mature by consuming this spiritual food and by Christ's chastening judgment, we will learn righteousness and become a perfect man of full age.

This verse below applies to the maturing process of a converted believer:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The New Earth is a symbol for our new spirit that is governed by the Holy Spirit. It is from this new Spirit that we are judged and chastised by Christ so that we learn righteousness (this is what transforms a converted believer's carnal mind into the mind of Christ).

When a person is converted, they will receive the New Earth (new spirit that is governed by the Holy Spirit). The Old Earth (carnal spirit) is then destroyed by judgment. This judgment is shown here:

Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

A "woman" represents the spirit of a person. Eve represents the carnal spirit as does the Great Harlot. It is through the woman (mankind's carnal spirit) that Satan deceives mankind. After a person receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit, they will have two women within them; one is carnal and one is holy. The carnal spirit is "taken" and cast into the Lake of Fire (judgment) for destruction. The other woman (Holy Spirit) is left within the believer. This is why judgment is a necessary part of the conversion process. The old vessel must be destroyed so that the new vessel can be created.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

You said:
Where paul spoke of when I was a child…
But when I became “a Man” “Christ living in me.” “I put away childish things.”

This verse is using the maturing analogy and should be translated to say "when I was a babe". Here it is properly translated:

1Cor 13:11 When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe; (YLT)

And this one, too:

Eph 4:14 that we may no more be babes, tossed and borne about by every wind of the teaching, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray, (YLT)

Christ said this:

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children (no longer a babe who draws milk), ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

A person will enter the Kingdom of Heaven when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit and are converted. This is when they go from being a "babe" who is blown around by every wind of doctrine (because they are spiritually blind) to being a little child who can start being nourished by the bread, meat and New Wine of the New Covenant teachings.

This scripture teaches the same thing:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted little children). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

This is why babes are no match for the deceptions of Satan and is why the apostasy of the church occurred after the deaths of the apostles. No person can avoid becoming apostate shortly after they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit and have become a babe in Christ. Satan feasts on the carnality of all new believers.

Christ even said this about the coming apostasy:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Christ even described how it happens to a new believer (a babe):

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

Joe